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Re: [orthodox-readers] Re: When is a vigil allowed according to the Typicon

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  • Fr. John Whiteford
    Stephan wrote: About how much time of the vigil would be devoted to matins? Me: That varies a bit. I would say that in Russian parish practice it probably
    Message 1 of 13 , Dec 17, 2004
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      Stephan wrote:

      "About how much time of the vigil would be devoted to
      matins?"

      Me: That varies a bit. I would say that in Russian
      parish practice it probably varies from about an hour
      on the short end to about 2 1/2 to 3 hours on the long
      end.

      Stephan: "Would this be a full matins with all the
      verses to the canons?"

      Me: If by verses you mean the troparia of the canon,
      which according to the typicon are normally 14 per
      ode, this too depends on the parish, and how this is
      done has a lot to do with how long Matins is (the
      other big variable being whether or not the full
      kathismata are done, or whether they are abbreviated
      in some way, and if so how). Some parishes will do
      the full number, even on occassions where this
      requires them to repeat troparia several times a
      piece. Others will do all the troparia appointed, but
      not repeat any. Others will abbreviate further to one
      extent or another.

      Stephan: "I had heard that the last royal family of
      Russia liked to go to the Vigil on the feasts and all
      most every Saturday. Their version of the vigil seemed
      a bit quick to me...it was a bit more than an hour.
      Did they have specially-trained royal readers who
      could read fast?"

      Me: I don't know the details of how their vigils were
      done. I do know that the length of a vigil does
      depend on how well coordinated everything is done. I
      have seen a relatively unabbreviated vigil (with the
      full kathismatas) take a lot less time than vigils
      that did a lot of abbreviations -- and this was not
      because the readers at the full vigil whipped through
      their readings at an inordinant speed. They just did
      not waste any time with pauses, while people figured
      out what to do next, or while the choir tried to get
      everyone on the same pitch for a sticheron.

      Stephan: "As for the agripina, our priest who served
      in Thessalonika, says that they are common amongst the
      New Calendarists too. It was not unusual for the
      churches to be packed. Everything would end at about 1
      am, but this is not much of a difference to the
      ordinary night life in Greece as all stay up quite
      late and have an afternoon nap to make up for lost
      sleep the next day...I do not think that it would work
      in Canada and it really does not get that hot here
      which is the reason for having a nap during the
      hottest period of the day. Supposedly the monks do it
      too on Mount Athos."

      Me: I can believe that the agrypnia is done in parish
      practice in Greece among those on the new calendar...
      I just know that this is not the case in America.


      God bless...Stephan in Ottawa



      =====
      *****************************************************************
      Fr. John Whiteford
      St. Jonah Orthodox Church
      Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
      Parish Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
      ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
    • David Ward
      Stephan: I use a compiled book published by the Antiochian Archdiocese written by Kazan (includes music in Byzantine chant), which has the Matins service as we
      Message 2 of 13 , Dec 17, 2004
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        Stephan:

        I use a compiled book published by the Antiochian Archdiocese written by
        Kazan (includes music in Byzantine chant), which has the Matins service as
        we celebrate it. Also available is NASSAR, which includes most of the
        services with no music. Not all of the cannon is used but the psalms are
        included and total takes about 1 hour to complete if a fair pace is kept.
        On major feast days matins will stretch longer.



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        -----Original Message-----
        From: stephanlh [mailto:stephanlh@...]
        Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 10:57 PM
        To: orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [orthodox-readers] Re: When is a vigil allowed according to the
        Typicon



        Dear Subdeacon David,

        Thank you for your response. I truly admire a parish which is so
        committed as to have a service at 8am. Does this mean that you have
        the entire matins with all the psalms and all the verses of the
        canons? I would like to have this in my parish, but the first problem
        would be finding a translation of the canons in English. What do you
        use? Thanks again and God bless...Stephan in Ottawa

        --- In orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com, "David Ward"
        <lotsofmoney@m...> wrote:
        >
        > Stephan:
        >
        > All Saints Antiochian Orthodox Church in Raleigh NC celebrates
        Matins at
        > 8:00am on Sunday mornings with Liturgy at 10:00am and Vespers
        Saturday
        > night. I am not sure about combining Vespers and Matins in one
        service
        > except as noted with Liturgy starting at Midnight.
        >
        > Sdn David
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: stephanlh [mailto:stephanlh@y...]
        > Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2004 2:44 PM
        > To: orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [orthodox-readers] When is a vigil allowed according to
        the Typicon
        >
        >
        >
        > I am a new poster and please bear with me if I am asking a simple
        > question or something covered a long time ago. Someone once said to
        > me that the normal Russian practice of combining Vespers and Matins
        > to make up the so-called All Night Vigil on Saturday evening is not
        > according to the Typicon of St. Saabas. The only time when this is
        > allowed according to the typicon is when there is an agripina, that
        > is to say when the Divine Liturgies follows at midnight on a feast
        > day. The person went on to say that Matins should be celebrated on
        > Sunday morning before the hours and the liturgy. I suppose if the
        > Liturgy were to start at 10am, Matins would have to start no later
        > than 8am. I wonder if there are any parishes that still do the
        > traditional morning matins without short-cuts before the hours on
        > Sunday morning....Some information would be helpful to me...Thanks
        > and God bless...Stephan in Ottawa
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
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      • Theophan
        ...the first problem would be finding a translation of the canons in English. The St. John of Kronstadt Press offers the complete Octoechos and the entire
        Message 3 of 13 , Dec 17, 2004
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          ...the first problem would be finding a translation
          of the canons in English.

          The St. John of Kronstadt Press offers the complete Octoechos and the entire
          Menaion, all in English. They're on the web : http://www.kronstadt.org/
        • nmmihalik@earthlink.net
          Hello Stephan: My parish regularly serves matins on Sunday morning. We start at 0630 (6:30 AM) with Blessed is our God... , O Heavenly King thru Our Father,
          Message 4 of 13 , Dec 17, 2004
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            Hello Stephan:

            My parish regularly serves matins on Sunday morning. We start at 0630 (6:30 AM) with "Blessed is our God...", O Heavenly King thru Our Father, "For Thine is the Kingdom...", Amen. Lord have mercy 12 times, O come let us worship...; Psalms 19 and 20 (Priest censing), Glory/Now, Trisagion, "For Thine is the Kingdom..."; Troparia, O Lord save Thy people, etc; Short Litany, "For a merciful God art Thou....", Amen. In the name of the Lord, Father bless. "Glory to the holy, and consubstantial, and life-creating , and indivisible Trinity...". Then the six psalms.

            We do everything, but do employ some of the methods Fr. John has set forth. We only read one kathisma. We read all the appropriate canons, but only read each troparia once. We also sing all katavasiae. At the conclusion of the 1st Hour, it's about 0815 to 0830. So 1 hour 45 minutes to 2 hours seem to be our norm.

            After the 1st hour comes entrance prayers, proskomedia, 3rd and 6th Hours, then Liturgy. I hope this helps.

            Sincerely,

            Nicholas Mihalik

            PS. I think the outline of the beginning of Matins is called the "Royal Beginning", or words to that effect. I wasn't sure, so I spelled it out from the Unabbreviated Horologion (Fr. Laurence, Jordanville). If someone on the list could confirm or deny this "title", I would appreciate it.
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Fr. John Whiteford
            To: orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 7:52 AM
            Subject: Re: [orthodox-readers] Re: When is a vigil allowed according to the Typicon



            Stephan wrote:

            "About how much time of the vigil would be devoted to
            matins?"

            Me: That varies a bit. I would say that in Russian
            parish practice it probably varies from about an hour
            on the short end to about 2 1/2 to 3 hours on the long
            end.

            Stephan: "Would this be a full matins with all the
            verses to the canons?"

            Me: If by verses you mean the troparia of the canon,
            which according to the typicon are normally 14 per
            ode, this too depends on the parish, and how this is
            done has a lot to do with how long Matins is (the
            other big variable being whether or not the full
            kathismata are done, or whether they are abbreviated
            in some way, and if so how). Some parishes will do
            the full number, even on occassions where this
            requires them to repeat troparia several times a
            piece. Others will do all the troparia appointed, but
            not repeat any. Others will abbreviate further to one
            extent or another.



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Alex Vallens
            ... Why would entrance prayers come after Matins? Hasn t the Priest already entered the temple and served in a liturgical capacity? I can understand coming in
            Message 5 of 13 , Dec 17, 2004
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              On Dec 17, 2004, at 12:49 PM, <nmmihalik@...> wrote:

              > After the 1st hour comes entrance prayers, proskomedia, 3rd and 6th
              > Hours, then Liturgy. I hope this helps.

              Why would entrance prayers come after Matins? Hasn't the Priest already
              entered the temple and served in a liturgical capacity? I can
              understand coming in and setting up for Liturgy and then doing the
              prayers, but if one is going to serve another office, the prayers
              should be said BEFORE that office is served.

              With love in Christ,
              Reader Alexander

              P.S. I admire how much of the service you actually serve. I hope the
              service is well attended.
            • Timothy Copple
              ... I ve used that for a long time too. By that, you do have the six psalms, but not the kathismas. Previously we would just plain chant the poetic kathisma s
              Message 6 of 13 , Dec 17, 2004
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                David Ward wrote:
                >
                > Stephan:
                >
                > I use a compiled book published by the Antiochian Archdiocese written by
                > Kazan (includes music in Byzantine chant), which has the Matins service as
                > we celebrate it. Also available is NASSAR, which includes most of the
                > services with no music. Not all of the cannon is used but the psalms are
                > included and total takes about 1 hour to complete if a fair pace is kept.
                > On major feast days matins will stretch longer.

                I've used that for a long time too. By that, you do have the six psalms,
                but not the kathismas. Previously we would just plain chant the poetic
                kathisma's that are suppose to go between the psalms. We would just do
                the katavasias for the canon and that service would take around an hour.

                Our current priest has us doing the full kathisma and we generally do
                several troparia of the canon along with the katavasias. How many
                troparia and which ones are generally left to the reader in charge, and
                is based on how much time we have left. We usually attempt to end the
                canon around 15 minutes until liturgy is suppose to start and I've
                figured out that we can do about 5 troparia from each ode to take up
                about 30 minutes time which is generally what we have left.

                Our Matins/Orthros takes about 2 hours generally and there is little
                pauses because we already know everything that will be done and have it
                laid out. Our main job is to make it prayerful as much as possible and
                our bishop has commented before that it was just that, for which I am
                glad. But you have to keep at it and not slack off too. :-)

                But our priest wouldn't let us do that anyway. ;-)

                --
                Reader Timothy Copple
                http://www.orthodoxconvert.info
                http://www.theforerunner.org
              • nmmihalik@earthlink.net
                Hello Alexander, The Entrance Prayers performed in the manner I related reflect the correct and logical order if the progression toward Divine Liturgy begins
                Message 7 of 13 , Dec 21, 2004
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                  Hello Alexander,

                  The Entrance Prayers performed in the manner I related reflect the correct and logical order if the progression toward Divine Liturgy begins on Sunday morning with Matins. These prayers are tied to the vesting of priest and deacon as well as Proskomedia. According to the Law of God , compiled by Archpriest Seraphim Slobodskoy (1912-1971) published by Holy Trinity Monastery, Jordanville NY, "In order to prepare, according to the ecclesiastical Typikon, for the celebration of the Liturgy, the priest and deacon read the "entrance prayers" before the closed Royal Doors and the enter the Sanctuary and vest. Then going to the Altar of Oblation the priest blesses the beginning of Proskomedia..." Isabella Hapgood in her Service Book states, "When the time is come to celebrate the Divine Liturgy, the Priest entereth the Temple, and, in company with the Deacon, maketh three lowly reverences before the Holy Door. Then the Deacon saith, "Bless Master." etc. The Divine Liturgy, 1967, Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church of America (to become the OCA) under the section, The Entrance Prayers and Vesting, states, "When the Priest desires to perform the Divine Mystery,...When the time comes, he and the deacon enter the church and bow before the Holy Doors three times." The entrance prayers follow, then vesting, proskomedia, and Divine Liturgy. These are just a few examples.

                  To the best of my knowledge, I have never seen these prayers done prior to vespers, matins, or a full vigil.

                  I find these prayers to be particularly moving. In the quiet of the church the priest stands before the Royal Doors, and, with humility, begins the chain of events that concludes with the imparting of the Body and Blood of our Lord, Jesus Christ. And because we begin with matins on Sunday morning, our faithful get a glimpse of the fullness and order of the Divine Liturgy.

                  Sincerely,

                  Nicholas Mihalik

                  PS. For Saint Nicholas Day last Sunday, we had eleven people in the choir by the end of the Six Psalms (around 0650). Eight to ten is the norm. By the time the Gospel is read we have around 15 to 20 total. It's a small parish of about 55 members, so I guess the percentage isn't too bad.
                  From: Alex Vallens
                  To: orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 4:38 PM
                  Subject: Re: [orthodox-readers] Re: When is a vigil allowed according to the Typicon


                  On Dec 17, 2004, at 12:49 PM, <nmmihalik@...> wrote:

                  > After the 1st hour comes entrance prayers, proskomedia, 3rd and 6th
                  > Hours, then Liturgy. I hope this helps.

                  Why would entrance prayers come after Matins? Hasn't the Priest already
                  entered the temple and served in a liturgical capacity? I can
                  understand coming in and setting up for Liturgy and then doing the
                  prayers, but if one is going to serve another office, the prayers
                  should be said BEFORE that office is served.

                  With love in Christ,
                  Reader Alexander

                  P.S. I admire how much of the service you actually serve. I hope the
                  service is well attended.



                  To learn more about reader services, see:
                  http://pages.prodigy.net/frjohnwhiteford/horologion.htm

                  To access this lists archives, go to:
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
                  ogion.htm

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                • Kevin.Claiborne@Instinet.com
                  In Greek usage the Proskomedia is performed during Matins. This is true for both Sunday Matins and Vigil (Agrypnia). Therefore at least one Priest must be
                  Message 8 of 13 , Dec 22, 2004
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                    In Greek usage the Proskomedia is performed during Matins. This is
                    true for both Sunday Matins and Vigil (Agrypnia). Therefore at least one
                    Priest must be vested then. I've always seen the entrance prayers done when
                    the clergy first enter the Temple.

                    Since Slavic practice is to start the Proskomedia during the hours,
                    they could conceivably do the entrance prayers between hours one and three,
                    but I would think that would interrupt the flow of the service.




                    <nmmihalik@...> on 12/22/2004 12:49:53 AM

                    Please respond to orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com

                    To: <orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com>
                    cc:

                    Subject: Re: [orthodox-readers] Re: When is a vigil allowed according to
                    the Typicon




                    Hello Alexander,

                    The Entrance Prayers performed in the manner I related reflect the correct
                    and logical order if the progression toward Divine Liturgy begins on
                    Sunday morning with Matins. These prayers are tied to the vesting of
                    priest and deacon as well as Proskomedia. According to the Law of God ,
                    compiled by Archpriest Seraphim Slobodskoy (1912-1971) published by Holy
                    Trinity Monastery, Jordanville NY, "In order to prepare, according to the
                    ecclesiastical Typikon, for the celebration of the Liturgy, the priest and
                    deacon read the "entrance prayers" before the closed Royal Doors and the
                    enter the Sanctuary and vest. Then going to the Altar of Oblation the
                    priest blesses the beginning of Proskomedia..." Isabella Hapgood in her
                    Service Book states, "When the time is come to celebrate the Divine
                    Liturgy, the Priest entereth the Temple, and, in company with the Deacon,
                    maketh three lowly reverences before the Holy Door. Then the Deacon saith,
                    "Bless Master." etc. The Divine Liturgy, 1967!
                    , Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church of America (to become the OCA)
                    under the section, The Entrance Prayers and Vesting, states, "When the
                    Priest desires to perform the Divine Mystery,...When the time comes, he
                    and the deacon enter the church and bow before the Holy Doors three
                    times." The entrance prayers follow, then vesting, proskomedia, and
                    Divine Liturgy. These are just a few examples.

                    To the best of my knowledge, I have never seen these prayers done prior to
                    vespers, matins, or a full vigil.

                    I find these prayers to be particularly moving. In the quiet of the church
                    the priest stands before the Royal Doors, and, with humility, begins the
                    chain of events that concludes with the imparting of the Body and Blood of
                    our Lord, Jesus Christ. And because we begin with matins on Sunday morning,
                    our faithful get a glimpse of the fullness and order of the Divine Liturgy.

                    Sincerely,

                    Nicholas Mihalik

                    PS. For Saint Nicholas Day last Sunday, we had eleven people in the choir
                    by the end of the Six Psalms (around 0650). Eight to ten is the norm. By
                    the time the Gospel is read we have around 15 to 20 total. It's a small
                    parish of about 55 members, so I guess the percentage isn't too bad.
                    From: Alex Vallens
                    To: orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 4:38 PM
                    Subject: Re: [orthodox-readers] Re: When is a vigil allowed according to
                    the Typicon


                    On Dec 17, 2004, at 12:49 PM, <nmmihalik@...> wrote:

                    > After the 1st hour comes entrance prayers, proskomedia, 3rd and 6th
                    > Hours, then Liturgy. I hope this helps.

                    Why would entrance prayers come after Matins? Hasn't the Priest already
                    entered the temple and served in a liturgical capacity? I can
                    understand coming in and setting up for Liturgy and then doing the
                    prayers, but if one is going to serve another office, the prayers
                    should be said BEFORE that office is served.

                    With love in Christ,
                    Reader Alexander

                    P.S. I admire how much of the service you actually serve. I hope the
                    service is well attended.



                    To learn more about reader services, see:
                    http://pages.prodigy.net/frjohnwhiteford/horologion.htm

                    To access this lists archives, go to:
                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
                    ogion.htm

                    To access this lists archives, go to:
                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers



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