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Horologion from St Tikhon Sem. Press

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  • orthodox_raphael
    I am in the market for a horologion and was looking at these two: The Unabbreviated Horologion $40, 408 pages, available at
    Message 1 of 13 , Dec 4, 2003
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      I am in the market for a horologion and was looking at these two:
      The Unabbreviated Horologion $40, 408 pages, available at<http://www.
      sjkp.org/search.php?where=code=2603>

      and
      The Horologion from St Tikhon's Seminary Press $55, 745 pages
      available from STS press <http://www.stots.edu/bookstore/newtitles.
      htm>

      I am leaning toward the 2nd, but would like to solicit recommendations
      from fellow listmembers. (what accounts for a 337 page difference?)

      Thanks.

      Raphael
    • Priest Seraphim Holland
      The Horologion from St Tikhon s Seminary Press sound quite good. If it is anything like their four volume trebnic, it is worth having. I prefer the I like the
      Message 2 of 13 , Dec 4, 2003
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        The Horologion from St Tikhon's Seminary Press sound quite good. If it is
        anything like their four volume trebnic, it is worth having. I prefer the
        I like the Jordanville Horologion (because of its quality and my long
        usage of it), but do not use the canons from it. For these, I use the
        Jordanville prayer book, or a separate book with the communion canons an
        akathists. The additional Triodion, Pentecostarion, etc. material is very
        useful.

        Items in the Jordanville Horologion that are probably not in the St.
        Tikhon's Horologion

        Interhours
        Private Bedtime prayers
        The Order of the Panagia

        Selected Triodion, Pentecostarion, Menaion material (prokeimena, troparia,
        etc.)

        Canons:
        Supplicatory to the Theotokos
        Of Repentance
        For Holy Communion (three canons, together, with Akathist to Sweetest
        Jesus and the Theotokos in the Middle)

        Order of Preparation for Holy Communion
        Prayers After Holy Communion

        Glossary


        The lion's share of additional material is in the canons.
        If you want more stuff in one place, the Jordanville Horologion is better.
        If you want to have a book for the services in church, either is likely to
        be good.





        orthodox_raphael wrote:

        > I am in the market for a horologion and was looking at these two:
        > The Unabbreviated Horologion $40, 408 pages, available at<http://www.
        > sjkp.org/search.php?where=code=2603>
        >
        > and
        > The Horologion from St Tikhon's Seminary Press $55, 745 pages
        > available from STS press <http://www.stots.edu/bookstore/newtitles.
        > htm>
        >
        > I am leaning toward the 2nd, but would like to solicit recommendations
        > from fellow listmembers. (what accounts for a 337 page difference?)
        >
        > Thanks.
        >
        > Raphael
        >
        >
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        > To learn more about reader services, see:
        > http://pages.prodigy.net/frjohnwhiteford/horologion.htm
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        --
        Priest Seraphim Holland - seraphim@... PHONE: 972/529-2754
        MOBILE: 214 658-5433 ADDRESS:2102 Summit, McKinney, TX 75071
        Sermons,Articles,Orthodox topics Q&A,Confession,Parish info,links,etc
        http://www.orthodox.net
      • Steve Owens
        Both editions of the Horologion are excellent resources. I own a copy of one and our parish has a copy of the other in its library, and I can truthfully say
        Message 3 of 13 , Dec 4, 2003
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          Both editions of the Horologion are excellent resources. I own a copy of one and our parish has a copy of the other in its library, and I can truthfully say that I've found both very useful.
          I suppose that one factor to consider is the difference in translation- If you use the Jordanville Prayerbook at home, for example, you'll probably find the Unabbreviated Horologion more comfortable for your use.
          On the other hand, if your parish uses service books from St. Tikhon's, naturally their edition will be easier to use.
          Also, be aware that St. Tikhon's does not contain some noteworthy material (mostly private devotional material) such as the Prayers Before Sleep or the Canons of Preparation for Holy Communion.
          Does anyone out there have a copy of Holy Transfiguration's The Great Hororologion ---- the 900 page hernia-inducing edition? All joking aside, does anyone have any comments regarding its usefulness, particularly for those of the Russian Usage- are the differences noted, and does this cause any awkwardness?
          Just saw Fr. Seraphim's response pop up as I was typing. St. Tikhon's does in fact have the Inter-Hours and the Panagia, but not the various canons.

          Thanks.
          Steven.
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: orthodox_raphael
          To: orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 2:43 PM
          Subject: [orthodox-readers] Horologion from St Tikhon Sem. Press


          I am in the market for a horologion and was looking at these two:
          The Unabbreviated Horologion $40, 408 pages, available at<http://www.
          sjkp.org/search.php?where=code=2603>

          and
          The Horologion from St Tikhon's Seminary Press $55, 745 pages
          available from STS press <http://www.stots.edu/bookstore/newtitles.
          htm>

          I am leaning toward the 2nd, but would like to solicit recommendations
          from fellow listmembers. (what accounts for a 337 page difference?)

          Thanks.

          Raphael


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          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers


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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • orthodox_raphael
          ... better. ... likely to ... When you say Jordanville are you talking about this one The Unabbreviated Horologion trans. Fr. Laurence ? If so, how can it
          Message 4 of 13 , Dec 4, 2003
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            > The lion's share of additional material is in the canons.
            > If you want more stuff in one place, the Jordanville Horologion is
            better.
            > If you want to have a book for the services in church, either is
            likely to
            > be good.
            >


            When you say Jordanville are you talking about this one "The
            Unabbreviated Horologion trans. Fr. Laurence"?

            If so, how can it have more material with 337 fewer pages?
            Not being snippy, honestly curious.

            Peace,
            Raphael
          • Alex Vallens
            The St. Tikhon s Horologion is ideal for parish use, because it s rather straightforward, organized well and and fits on a reader s stand. However, I
            Message 5 of 13 , Dec 4, 2003
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              The St. Tikhon's Horologion is ideal for parish use, because it's
              rather straightforward, organized well and and fits on a reader's
              stand. However, I personally am not too partial to the translation. It
              was, if I'm not mistaken, translated from the Slavonic, with little, if
              any, cross-reference to the Greek. Worse, in my opinion, the psalms are
              not very poetic, and tend to twist my tongue when I read them. It may
              be, however, that I'm used to more modern translations... poo-poo on me.

              That having been said, I would probably have to say the same about the
              Unabbreviated Horologion from Transfiguration Monastery. Although I
              haven't used it, personally, I have used their Psalter, as well as
              their translation of St. Photios' "On the Mystagogy of the Holy
              Spirit." I have found their translations to be rather annoying, at
              best. If the Horologion has similar translation, which it probably
              does, I'd recommend staying away from it.

              Actually, come to think of, I have the same problem with the
              Jordanville Horologion also. The English, in my opinion, is abismal. At
              least in the St. Tikhon's Horologion the common prayers are fairly
              standard, unlike the Jordanville's King James style text.

              I guess the point is that you're best off going for the translation
              you're used to. If you're OCA, go for St. Tikhon's. ROCOR- Jordanville;
              Greek, HTM, probably. As far as usability goes, I like the one from St.
              Tikhon's, as I indicated. We use it here at St. Tikhon's (I'm a student
              at the seminary, but we use it in the monastery where we go for all
              church services), as one might expect. It seems to work very well, even
              for the full cycle of daily services held in the monastery. As always,
              however, your mileage may vary. :-)

              With love in Christ,
              Reader Alexander

              On Thursday, December 4, 2003, at 02:43 PM, orthodox_raphael wrote:

              > I am in the market for a horologion and was looking at these two:
              > The Unabbreviated Horologion $40, 408 pages, available at<http://www.
              > sjkp.org/search.php?where=code=2603>
              >
              > and
              > The Horologion from St Tikhon's Seminary Press $55, 745 pages
              > available from STS press <http://www.stots.edu/bookstore/newtitles.
              > htm>
              >
              > I am leaning toward the 2nd, but would like to solicit recommendations
              > from fellow listmembers. (what accounts for a 337 page difference?)
              >
              > Thanks.
              >
              > Raphael
            • Priest Seraphim Holland
              ... Yes. I thought the Jordanville one was longer, my mistake. My curiosity is piqued. I hope someone can post the table of contents of the two books. --
              Message 6 of 13 , Dec 4, 2003
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                orthodox_raphael wrote:
                > When you say Jordanville are you talking about this one "The
                > Unabbreviated Horologion trans. Fr. Laurence"?
                >
                > If so, how can it have more material with 337 fewer pages?
                > Not being snippy, honestly curious.

                Yes. I thought the Jordanville one was longer, my mistake. My curiosity is
                piqued. I hope someone can post the table of contents of the two books.


                --
                Priest Seraphim Holland - seraphim@... PHONE: 972/529-2754
                MOBILE: 214 658-5433 ADDRESS:2102 Summit, McKinney, TX 75071
                Sermons,Articles,Orthodox topics Q&A,Confession,Parish info,links,etc
                http://www.orthodox.net
              • James Morgan
                I don t have the St. Tikhon s book, but I have seen it. I believe they duplicate services, i.e. Sunday as opposed to weekday vespers, etc, and that makes the
                Message 7 of 13 , Dec 4, 2003
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                  I don't have the St. Tikhon's book, but I have seen it. I believe they
                  duplicate services, i.e. Sunday as opposed to weekday vespers, etc, and that
                  makes the book longer. I know that the week I spent at our monastery at Pt.
                  Reyes, it was very confusing to use, as opposed to the Jordanville, and it
                  was removed from the kliros.

                  Also, the translations were idiosyncratic and confused people used to other
                  things.

                  Rdr. James
                  Olympia, WA



                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: orthodox_raphael [mailto:icxc_sheep@...]
                  Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 11:44 AM
                  To: orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [orthodox-readers] Horologion from St Tikhon Sem. Press

                  I am in the market for a horologion and was looking at these two:
                  The Unabbreviated Horologion $40, 408 pages, available at<http://www.
                  sjkp.org/search.php?where=code=2603>

                  and
                  The Horologion from St Tikhon's Seminary Press $55, 745 pages
                  available from STS press <http://www.stots.edu/bookstore/newtitles.
                  htm>

                  I am leaning toward the 2nd, but would like to solicit recommendations
                  from fellow listmembers. (what accounts for a 337 page difference?)

                  Thanks.

                  Raphael
                • orthodox_raphael
                  Thanks to all for your opinions. I was able to determine that St Tikhon s is the one we use at my parish, so I ll be getting that one. As good a reason as any
                  Message 8 of 13 , Dec 5, 2003
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                    Thanks to all for your opinions. I was able to determine that St
                    Tikhon's is the one we use at my parish, so I'll be getting that one.

                    As good a reason as any I suspect.

                    Peace,
                    Raphael
                  • wilibrad@aol.com
                    If I may intrude here, I know many of the readers of the orthodox-readers list are on other yahoogroups as well, and I would like to let them know that my
                    Message 9 of 13 , Dec 5, 2003
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                      If I may intrude here, I know many of the readers of the orthodox-readers
                      list are on other yahoogroups as well, and I would like to let them know that my
                      godfather, John Royce (WMa413Dad1@...) reposed earlier this week. He was
                      often a contributor to these groups and I would ask your prayers for his
                      repose. He died suddenly last Monday morning and was buried yesterday. Thank-you.
                      Reader Stephen


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • kclaib
                      I both own and use in Church the Great Horologian. It is a fairly faithful translation of the Greek Great Horologian, and is indispensable for anyone reading
                      Message 10 of 13 , Dec 8, 2003
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                        I both own and use in Church the Great Horologian. It is a fairly
                        faithful translation of the Greek Great Horologian, and is
                        indispensable for anyone reading in Parishes of the Greek Tradition.

                        I have used Holy Trinity's book in the past. There are differences
                        between the two. The hours are almost identical with only minor
                        translation differences, and of course Jordanville's ending the First
                        Hour with "To Thee the Champion Leader" is not included.

                        Compline, Great and Small probably have the biggest differences, with
                        bedtime prayers absent from the Greek version and different
                        translations of the prayers after the canon in Small Compline.

                        Matins is similar in both books, absent the All-Night Vigil rubrics
                        which appear in the Jordanville version.

                        The Holy Transfiguration version contains a full Menalogian, which is
                        handy, although the Troparia and Kontakia are not always the same as
                        what appear in the Menaion. This is also less useful for a Slavic
                        tradition parish, due to calendar differences in commemorations. The
                        Great Horologian also contains A large selection of Akathists and
                        Paraklesis ( not sure about the plural there )and the verses sung at
                        the third Kathisma for festal commemorations. It does not include the
                        magnifications with Psalm verses which are in the Holy Trinity
                        edition, as this is not a Greek Practice, although these are
                        reproduced elsewhere, such as St. Tikhon's Calendar.

                        The Great Horologian, while conforming to Greek usage, can be used in
                        Slavic parishes, depending on how closely one wishes to adhere to
                        Jordanville usage.

                        Hope this helps,
                        KC












                        --- In orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Owens" <bowen@v...>
                        wrote:
                        > Both editions of the Horologion are excellent resources. I own a
                        copy of one and our parish has a copy of the other in its library,
                        and I can truthfully say that I've found both very useful.
                        > I suppose that one factor to consider is the difference in
                        translation- If you use the Jordanville Prayerbook at home, for
                        example, you'll probably find the Unabbreviated Horologion more
                        comfortable for your use.
                        > On the other hand, if your parish uses service books from St.
                        Tikhon's, naturally their edition will be easier to use.
                        > Also, be aware that St. Tikhon's does not contain some noteworthy
                        material (mostly private devotional material) such as the Prayers
                        Before Sleep or the Canons of Preparation for Holy Communion.
                        > Does anyone out there have a copy of Holy Transfiguration's The
                        Great Hororologion ---- the 900 page hernia-inducing edition? All
                        joking aside, does anyone have any comments regarding its usefulness,
                        particularly for those of the Russian Usage- are the differences
                        noted, and does this cause any awkwardness?
                        > Just saw Fr. Seraphim's response pop up as I was typing. St.
                        Tikhon's does in fact have the Inter-Hours and the Panagia, but not
                        the various canons.
                        >
                        > Thanks.
                        > Steven.
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: orthodox_raphael
                        > To: orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 2:43 PM
                        > Subject: [orthodox-readers] Horologion from St Tikhon Sem. Press
                        >
                        >
                        > I am in the market for a horologion and was looking at these two:
                        > The Unabbreviated Horologion $40, 408 pages, available
                        at<http://www.
                        > sjkp.org/search.php?where=code=2603>
                        >
                        > and
                        > The Horologion from St Tikhon's Seminary Press $55, 745 pages
                        > available from STS press
                        <http://www.stots.edu/bookstore/newtitles.
                        > htm>
                        >
                        > I am leaning toward the 2nd, but would like to solicit
                        recommendations
                        > from fellow listmembers. (what accounts for a 337 page
                        difference?)
                        >
                        > Thanks.
                        >
                      • Theophan
                        Dear Father John Whiteford, Father, bless, Our priest was very ill with the flu and unable to serve yesterday, so we did a reader s service of the Typika, with
                        Message 11 of 13 , Dec 22, 2003
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                          Dear Father John Whiteford,

                          Father, bless,

                          Our priest was very ill with the flu and unable to serve yesterday, so
                          we did a reader's service of the Typika, with many thanks as always for
                          your generous offerings online!

                          One of us took the troparia and kontakia from your Liturgy page and
                          divided them up for the Typika, and another of us took the troparia and
                          kontakia from your Typika page, and we were surprised to note that they
                          were not the same. There was an "extra" troparion in the Typika
                          rubrics, which I finally discovered was actually a dismissal theotokion
                          for Saturday Matins, in the same tone as the Troparion of St. Patapius.

                          Liturgy rubrics: Typika rubrics:

                          Troparia: Troparia:
                          Resurrection Resurrection
                          Temple Temple
                          Patapius Patapius
                          >> O Good One... (See below) <<

                          Kontakia: Kontakia:
                          Resurrection Resurrection
                          Temple Temple
                          Patapius Patapius
                          O protection... O protection...

                          The "extra" troparion, actually the dismissal theotokion for Saturday
                          Matins, in the Typika rubrics is:

                          Tone 8: O Good One, Who for our sake wast born of the Virgin and, having
                          endured crucifixion, cast down death by death, and as God revealed the
                          resurrection: disdain not that which Thou hast fashioned with Thine own
                          hand. Show forth Thy love for mankind, O Merciful One; accept the
                          Theotokos who gave Thee birth and prayeth for us; and save Thy
                          despairing people, O our Savior!

                          I tried to find separate rubrics for the Typika in the SJOKP Order of
                          Divine Services, but it doesn't specifically address the troparia or
                          kontakia.

                          What's the rule for this? If I had not had your rubrics, how should I
                          have known this should have been there, and what's the rule for other
                          times. Does it matter what rank of service the Liturgy would have been,
                          etc.?

                          Thanks!

                          In Christ,

                          Theophan Dort
                        • Fr. John Whiteford
                          The reason for this is that according to the Old Rite Typikon, by Bishop Daniel the troparia and the kontakia are done separately... which is not what is done
                          Message 12 of 13 , Dec 22, 2003
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                            The reason for this is that according to the Old Rite
                            Typikon, by Bishop Daniel the troparia and the
                            kontakia are done separately... which is not what is
                            done at a liturgy.

                            When the troparia are done separately, such as at the
                            end of Vespers (when served alone) or at God is the
                            Lord, normally, there is a Theokion in the same tone
                            as the final troparion. Of course when there is a
                            Great feast things are a bit different.

                            But basically what is done at this point is the same
                            order as you find at God is the Lord, except that
                            there is no repetition of the first troparion, and if
                            the patronal troparion is called for, it is done here
                            as well, even though this would not be done at God is
                            the Lord.

                            -Fr. John Whiteford

                            --- Theophan <theophan@...> wrote:
                            > Dear Father John Whiteford,
                            >
                            > Father, bless,
                            >
                            > Our priest was very ill with the flu and unable to
                            > serve yesterday, so
                            > we did a reader's service of the Typika, with many
                            > thanks as always for
                            > your generous offerings online!
                            >
                            > One of us took the troparia and kontakia from your
                            > Liturgy page and
                            > divided them up for the Typika, and another of us
                            > took the troparia and
                            > kontakia from your Typika page, and we were
                            > surprised to note that they
                            > were not the same. There was an "extra" troparion
                            > in the Typika
                            > rubrics, which I finally discovered was actually a
                            > dismissal theotokion
                            > for Saturday Matins, in the same tone as the
                            > Troparion of St. Patapius.
                            >
                            > Liturgy rubrics: Typika rubrics:
                            >
                            > Troparia: Troparia:
                            > Resurrection Resurrection
                            > Temple Temple
                            > Patapius Patapius
                            > >> O Good One... (See below) <<
                            >
                            > Kontakia: Kontakia:
                            > Resurrection Resurrection
                            > Temple Temple
                            > Patapius Patapius
                            > O protection... O protection...
                            >
                            > The "extra" troparion, actually the dismissal
                            > theotokion for Saturday
                            > Matins, in the Typika rubrics is:
                            >
                            > Tone 8: O Good One, Who for our sake wast born of
                            > the Virgin and, having
                            > endured crucifixion, cast down death by death, and
                            > as God revealed the
                            > resurrection: disdain not that which Thou hast
                            > fashioned with Thine own
                            > hand. Show forth Thy love for mankind, O Merciful
                            > One; accept the
                            > Theotokos who gave Thee birth and prayeth for us;
                            > and save Thy
                            > despairing people, O our Savior!
                            >
                            > I tried to find separate rubrics for the Typika in
                            > the SJOKP Order of
                            > Divine Services, but it doesn't specifically address
                            > the troparia or
                            > kontakia.
                            >
                            > What's the rule for this? If I had not had your
                            > rubrics, how should I
                            > have known this should have been there, and what's
                            > the rule for other
                            > times. Does it matter what rank of service the
                            > Liturgy would have been,
                            > etc.?
                            >
                            > Thanks!
                            >
                            > In Christ,
                            >
                            > Theophan Dort
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            > orthodox-readers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >
                            > To learn more about reader services, see:
                            >
                            http://pages.prodigy.net/frjohnwhiteford/horologion.htm
                            >
                            > To access this lists archives, go to:
                            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
                            >
                            >
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                            >


                            =====
                            *****************************************************************
                            Fr. John Whiteford
                            St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                            Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                            Parish Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                            ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                          • Theophan
                            MANY thanks!!! Theophan Dort ... From: Fr. John Whiteford [mailto:frjohnwhiteford@yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, December 22, 2003 10:37 AM To:
                            Message 13 of 13 , Dec 22, 2003
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                              MANY thanks!!!

                              Theophan Dort

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: Fr. John Whiteford [mailto:frjohnwhiteford@...]
                              Sent: Monday, December 22, 2003 10:37 AM
                              To: orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [orthodox-readers] Typika troparia different from Liturgy
                              troparia?

                              The reason for this is that according to the Old Rite
                              Typikon, by Bishop Daniel the troparia and the
                              kontakia are done separately... which is not what is
                              done at a liturgy.

                              When the troparia are done separately, such as at the
                              end of Vespers (when served alone) or at God is the
                              Lord, normally, there is a Theokion in the same tone
                              as the final troparion. Of course when there is a
                              Great feast things are a bit different.

                              But basically what is done at this point is the same
                              order as you find at God is the Lord, except that
                              there is no repetition of the first troparion, and if
                              the patronal troparion is called for, it is done here
                              as well, even though this would not be done at God is
                              the Lord.

                              -Fr. John Whiteford
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