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Are the Kievan prokeimenon and alleluia chants the same?

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  • natwoon
    Dear all, I am trying to learn to chant the prokeimenon according to the cassette The Melodies of the Eight Tones and the Special Melodies prepared by Jason
    Message 1 of 7 , May 3, 2010
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      Dear all,

      I am trying to learn to chant the prokeimenon according to the cassette 'The Melodies of the Eight Tones and the Special Melodies'prepared by Jason Riessland of Joly Trinity Orthodox Monastery in Jordanville. I have been listening to the rcording of Tone 5 in preparation for this Sunday's Liturgy (when our priest will be visiting us from Singapore) and wonder if the chant melodies for the Kievan prokeimenon and the alleluia the same?

      Nathaniel in Malaysia
    • James
      Short answer is Yes, they are. Rdr. James Morgan
      Message 2 of 7 , May 3, 2010
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        Short answer is Yes, they are.
        Rdr. James Morgan

        --- In orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com, "natwoon" <natwoon@...> wrote:
        >
        > Dear all,
        >
        > I am trying to learn to chant the prokeimenon according to the cassette 'The Melodies of the Eight Tones and the Special Melodies'prepared by Jason Riessland of Joly Trinity Orthodox Monastery in Jordanville. I have been listening to the rcording of Tone 5 in preparation for this Sunday's Liturgy (when our priest will be visiting us from Singapore) and wonder if the chant melodies for the Kievan prokeimenon and the alleluia the same?
        >
        > Nathaniel in Malaysia
        >
      • James
        Daniel Olson corrected me privately regarding my short answer . I wish he had posted here as well! Here is his long answer which is much better than mine. I
        Message 3 of 7 , May 5, 2010
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          Daniel Olson corrected me privately regarding my 'short answer'. I wish he had posted here as well! Here is his 'long answer' which is much better than mine. I was probably mixing up the Kievan and Znamenny in my mind at the time.

          Rdr. James Morgan
          ----------------------------------------------------------------

          I think the "short answer" is somewhat misleading. First of all, there are no "Kievan Chant" melodies for Alleluia in the standard chant books of the Russian Church. As for the prokeimena in Kieven Chant -- they exist; but they are rarely sung today. What is more usual -- and probably what the original post was referring to -- are the melodies of the so-called Court Chant promoted by the Court Chapel Choir in St. Petersburg during the imperial period. But these cannot be called "Kievan Chant". In the Court Chant system, there was only one Alleluia melody, in the First Tone. In general, the singing of Alleluia in the eight tones had fallen out of use in the Russian Church. Today, when the Alleluia is sung in one of the tones, usually the Znameny prokeimenon melody is used for each tone. There are also more elaborate Znameny melodies for the Alleluia in each tone; but these are rarely sung today.

          Daniel Olson
          ----------------------------------------------------------------
          --- In orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com, "James" <rdrjames@...> wrote:
          >
          > Short answer is Yes, they are.
          > Rdr. James Morgan
          >
          > --- In orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com, "natwoon" <natwoon@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Dear all,
          > >
          > > I am trying to learn to chant the prokeimenon according to the cassette 'The Melodies of the Eight Tones and the Special Melodies'prepared by Jason Riessland of Joly Trinity Orthodox Monastery in Jordanville. I have been listening to the rcording of Tone 5 in preparation for this Sunday's Liturgy (when our priest will be visiting us from Singapore) and wonder if the chant melodies for the Kievan prokeimenon and the alleluia the same?
          > >
          > > Nathaniel in Malaysia
          > >
          >
        • natwoon
          Dear Rdr James, Christ is risen! Thanks for the longer reply. I suppose the melodies from the cassette produced by Jason Riessland that I am referring to are
          Message 4 of 7 , May 10, 2010
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            Dear Rdr James,

            Christ is risen!

            Thanks for the longer reply. I suppose the melodies from the cassette produced by Jason Riessland that I am referring to are not then Kievan melodies. Folks ask me what they are and I am all confused now - I just refer to them as the ROCOR cahnst melodies. I hope that is not incorrect.

            Nathaniel in Malaysia


            --- In orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com, "James" <rdrjames@...> wrote:
            >
            > Daniel Olson corrected me privately regarding my 'short answer'. I wish he had posted here as well! Here is his 'long answer' which is much better than mine. I was probably mixing up the Kievan and Znamenny in my mind at the time.
            >
            > Rdr. James Morgan
            > ----------------------------------------------------------------
            >
            > I think the "short answer" is somewhat misleading. First of all, there are no "Kievan Chant" melodies for Alleluia in the standard chant books of the Russian Church. As for the prokeimena in Kieven Chant -- they exist; but they are rarely sung today. What is more usual -- and probably what the original post was referring to -- are the melodies of the so-called Court Chant promoted by the Court Chapel Choir in St. Petersburg during the imperial period. But these cannot be called "Kievan Chant". In the Court Chant system, there was only one Alleluia melody, in the First Tone. In general, the singing of Alleluia in the eight tones had fallen out of use in the Russian Church. Today, when the Alleluia is sung in one of the tones, usually the Znameny prokeimenon melody is used for each tone. There are also more elaborate Znameny melodies for the Alleluia in each tone; but these are rarely sung today.
            >
            > Daniel Olson
            > ----------------------------------------------------------------
            > --- In orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com, "James" <rdrjames@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Short answer is Yes, they are.
            > > Rdr. James Morgan
            > >
            > > --- In orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com, "natwoon" <natwoon@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Dear all,
            > > >
            > > > I am trying to learn to chant the prokeimenon according to the cassette 'The Melodies of the Eight Tones and the Special Melodies'prepared by Jason Riessland of Joly Trinity Orthodox Monastery in Jordanville. I have been listening to the rcording of Tone 5 in preparation for this Sunday's Liturgy (when our priest will be visiting us from Singapore) and wonder if the chant melodies for the Kievan prokeimenon and the alleluia the same?
            > > >
            > > > Nathaniel in Malaysia
            > > >
            > >
            >
          • Philip Sokolov
            ... There are, however, melodies for Alleluaria in the chantbooks of the Kiev Caves Monastery . Not the same as Kievan Chant , but that may be what Nathaniel
            Message 5 of 7 , May 10, 2010
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              Daniel Olson wrote:

              > First of all, there are no "Kievan Chant" melodies for Alleluia in the
              > standard chant books of the Russian Church.

              There are, however, melodies for Alleluaria in the chantbooks of the
              "Kiev Caves Monastery". Not the same as "Kievan Chant", but that may be
              what Nathaniel is referring to?

              --Philip
            • starina77
              Christ is risen! Forgive me, but I think we re all trying to make this into more of an issue than it needs to be. The Prokeimena and Alleluia melodies commonly
              Message 6 of 7 , May 12, 2010
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                Christ is risen!

                Forgive me, but I think we're all trying to make this into more of an issue than it needs to be. The Prokeimena and Alleluia melodies commonly used in the contemporary Great Russian Church (MP, OCA, ROCOR and its off-shoots) are almost exclusively harmonized Znamenny Chant, as well as the one generic melody found in the Obikhod. Historically there have been other repertoires of Alleluia and Prokeimena melodies, but as far as I know they have all mostly fallen by the wayside and we can ignore them. (The Kievan Chant melodies never gained universal popularity throughout the Russian Church, and their use is now somewhat rare in the USA.)

                I ask people to please don't invent new terminology like "ROCOR Chant". It's imprecise and misleading. We should learn the correct terms so that we all can communicate with understanding. In this case, the term "Znamenny Chant" or "Harmonized Znamenny Chant" applies.

                Nikita Simmons

                P.S. to Daniel Olson: You wrote: "There are also more elaborate Znamenny melodies for the Alleluia in each tone; but these are rarely sung today." I looked in the Obikhod and found the melodies that you are referring to, but these are definitely Kievan, not Znamenny. It's misleading because they are not actually identified. (The main clue lies in the number of times the word "Alleluia" is used in each melody; the Znamenny repertoire would only sing it three times, but some of the Kievan settings sing it up to seven times, such as the Tone 7 melody. Pre-Nikonian repertoires strictly do not allow the text to be repeated more than the appointed number of times. Likewise the melodic motifs are not Znamenny popevki.)

                --- In orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com, "natwoon" <natwoon@...> wrote:
                >
                > Dear Rdr James,
                >
                > Christ is risen!
                >
                > Thanks for the longer reply. I suppose the melodies from the cassette produced by Jason Riessland that I am referring to are not then Kievan melodies. Folks ask me what they are and I am all confused now - I just refer to them as the ROCOR cahnst melodies. I hope that is not incorrect.
                >
                > Nathaniel in Malaysia
                >
                >
                > --- In orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com, "James" <rdrjames@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Daniel Olson corrected me privately regarding my 'short answer'. I wish he had posted here as well! Here is his 'long answer' which is much better than mine. I was probably mixing up the Kievan and Znamenny in my mind at the time.
                > >
                > > Rdr. James Morgan
                > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
                > >
                > > I think the "short answer" is somewhat misleading. First of all, there are no "Kievan Chant" melodies for Alleluia in the standard chant books of the Russian Church. As for the prokeimena in Kieven Chant -- they exist; but they are rarely sung today. What is more usual -- and probably what the original post was referring to -- are the melodies of the so-called Court Chant promoted by the Court Chapel Choir in St. Petersburg during the imperial period. But these cannot be called "Kievan Chant". In the Court Chant system, there was only one Alleluia melody, in the First Tone. In general, the singing of Alleluia in the eight tones had fallen out of use in the Russian Church. Today, when the Alleluia is sung in one of the tones, usually the Znameny prokeimenon melody is used for each tone. There are also more elaborate Znameny melodies for the Alleluia in each tone; but these are rarely sung today.
                > >
                > > Daniel Olson
                > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
                > > --- In orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com, "James" <rdrjames@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Short answer is Yes, they are.
                > > > Rdr. James Morgan
                > > >
                > > > --- In orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com, "natwoon" <natwoon@> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > Dear all,
                > > > >
                > > > > I am trying to learn to chant the prokeimenon according to the cassette 'The Melodies of the Eight Tones and the Special Melodies'prepared by Jason Riessland of Joly Trinity Orthodox Monastery in Jordanville. I have been listening to the rcording of Tone 5 in preparation for this Sunday's Liturgy (when our priest will be visiting us from Singapore) and wonder if the chant melodies for the Kievan prokeimenon and the alleluia the same?
                > > > >
                > > > > Nathaniel in Malaysia
                > > > >
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • natwoon
                Can someone tell me the right terms for the melodies in the cassette? I am not trying to invent terms and would be most grateful to be told what the melodies
                Message 7 of 7 , May 16, 2010
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                  Can someone tell me the right terms for the melodies in the cassette? I am not trying to invent terms and would be most grateful to be told what the melodies are to be called. Would it be correct to refer to the melodies used in the cassette as harmonized Znameny chant? I must say that I am becoming quite confused.

                  Regards,

                  Nathaniel
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