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2 prokeimena and more than 2 alleluia verses

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  • David L
    Glory be to Jesus Christ! I hope that all had an edifying season of the nativity in the flesh of our Lord & Saviour Jesus Christ, and for those on the
    Message 1 of 6 , Jan 14, 2010
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      Glory be to Jesus Christ!

      I hope that all had an edifying season of the nativity in the flesh of our Lord & Saviour Jesus Christ, and for those on the Gregorian Calendar
      that you had an edifying season of the feast of Jordan.

      I want to make sure that I read the prokeimena correctly this morning for the feast of the circumcision , and of St. Basil. First I read the
      prokeimenon of the circumcision, and the congregation (or choir) sings it, then the verse attached to it, and the congregation repeats, and then I read, in its entirety, the prokeimenon of St. Basil. Or is it only the first part?

      The previous Sunday, the Sunday of David, Joseph, and James, there were 3 alleluia verses. The first one is read immediately after I first say, "alleluia, alleluia, alleluia". Right?

      A fellow pilgrim,

      The Reader David

      David W. Lincoln
    • pravoslavney
      Christ is Born! Glorify Him! ... In Tone { } The 2nd Prokeimenon is read by the reader and repeated by the choir/chanters. ... Usually when there are two
      Message 2 of 6 , Jan 14, 2010
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        Christ is Born! Glorify Him!

        --- In orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com, "David L" <rohirrim005@...> wrote:
        >
        > Glory be to Jesus Christ!
        >
        > I hope that all had an edifying season of the nativity in the flesh of our Lord & Saviour Jesus Christ, and for those on the Gregorian Calendar
        > that you had an edifying season of the feast of Jordan.
        >
        > I want to make sure that I read the prokeimena correctly this morning for the feast of the circumcision , and of St. Basil. First I read the
        > prokeimenon of the circumcision, and the congregation (or choir) sings it, then the verse attached to it, and the congregation repeats, and then I read, in its entirety, the prokeimenon of St. Basil. Or is it only the first part?
        >
        In Tone { } The 2nd Prokeimenon is read by the reader and repeated by the choir/chanters.

        > The previous Sunday, the Sunday of David, Joseph, and James, there were 3 alleluia verses. The first one is read immediately after I first say, "alleluia, alleluia, alleluia". Right?
        >
        Usually when there are two prokeimenon their are also 3 verses for Alleluia (but not always) Two verses from the 1st prokeimenon and one verse from the 2nd Prokeimenon.
        Priest: Peace to be that readest.
        Reader: And with thy Spirit
        Reader says Alleluia,Alleluia, Alleluia in the tone { } but now days they don't sing them exactly in the same tone. 2nd Prokeimenon may or may not be in the same tone. In Tone { } then the verse.
        Rdr Timothy Tadros

        > A fellow pilgrim,
        >
        > The Reader David
        >
        > David W. Lincoln
        >
      • Steve Robinson
        ... From: David L I want to make sure that I read the prokeimena correctly this morning for the feast of the circumcision , and of St. Basil. First I read the
        Message 3 of 6 , Jan 14, 2010
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          ----- Original Message -----
          From: David L

          I want to make sure that I read the prokeimena correctly this morning for the feast of the circumcision , and of St. Basil. First I read the prokeimenon of the circumcision, and the congregation (or choir) sings it, then the verse attached to it, and the congregation repeats, and then I read, in its entirety, the prokeimenon of St. Basil. Or is it only the first part?

          *** You do the full second prokeimenon and the choir repeats it in full.

          The previous Sunday, the Sunday of David, Joseph, and James, there were 3 alleluia verses. The first one is read immediately after I first say, "alleluia, alleluia, alleluia". Right?

          ***Right.

          You did good. :)
          Sdn. s-p

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • David L
          Thank you.
          Message 4 of 6 , Jan 14, 2010
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            Thank you.


            --- In orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Robinson" <stevenpaul4@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: David L
            >
            > I want to make sure that I read the prokeimena correctly this morning for the feast of the circumcision , and of St. Basil. First I read the prokeimenon of the circumcision, and the congregation (or choir) sings it, then the verse attached to it, and the congregation repeats, and then I read, in its entirety, the prokeimenon of St. Basil. Or is it only the first part?
            >
            > *** You do the full second prokeimenon and the choir repeats it in full.
            >
            > The previous Sunday, the Sunday of David, Joseph, and James, there were 3 alleluia verses. The first one is read immediately after I first say, "alleluia, alleluia, alleluia". Right?
            >
            > ***Right.
            >
            > You did good. :)
            > Sdn. s-p
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • Symeon
            ... There are probably different practices here, but I never say an Alleluia, Alleluia, Alleluia if I have a verse to read immediately -- but rather use the
            Message 5 of 6 , Jan 15, 2010
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              Steve Robinson wrote:
              > ----- Original Message ----- From: David L
              >
              > The previous Sunday, the Sunday of David, Joseph, and James, there
              > were 3 alleluia verses. The first one is read immediately after I
              > first say, "alleluia, alleluia, alleluia". Right?
              >
              > ***Right.

              There are probably different practices here, but I never say an
              "Alleluia, Alleluia, Alleluia" if I have a verse to read immediately --
              but rather use the "triple-A" /in lieu of/ a Psalm verse. The rubrics
              in front of the 2nd Edition of the St. Tikhon's Apostol ("Concerning
              Prokeimena and Alleluia Verses") indicates this as well:

              "Reader: The Alleluia in the __ Tone, [and immediately he chants the
              first verse of the first Alleluia]"

              Perhaps I'm doing this wrong (if there's a clear "wrong" here), but I've
              /not/ been following the other paradigm in that section when there is
              but /one/ pair of verses to read: I just announce "Alleluia in the XX
              Tone" and expect the choir to come in, which they obligingly do.

              The "triple-A" is essential for the occasions where there is an Epistle
              reading called for, but no Psalm verse in sight -- or perhaps just one
              (I forget now exactly when: the rite of baptism?). I've not hit this
              very much yet, so I'm always out of practice and unsure when I do.

              /Rdr. Symeon Noon
              Monterey, Calif. -- ROCOR
            • starina77
              I don t know if this will be a help for you, but there is a very simple rule of thumb that makes this whole subject a lot easier to figure out. According to
              Message 6 of 6 , Jan 16, 2010
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                I don't know if this will be a help for you, but there is a very simple rule of thumb that makes this whole subject a lot easier to figure out.

                According to the usage of the Russian Old Rite (we use virtually the same version of the Sabbaitic Typicon as the modern Russian Church uses, with minor differences here and there), the chanting of the services is appointed to be done antiphonally, that is with a right and left choir. The Alleluia is sung antiphonally, starting with the lead choir (the right choir on Tuesdays, Thursdays, Saturdays and Sundays, and the left choir on the fast days: Monday, Wednesday and Friday), and is ALWAYS completed by the lead choir. (Antiphonal singing is still performed in most Greek monasteries, especially on Mt. Athos.)

                So, the Alleluia will always be sung an odd number of times (three, five or seven, according to the rank of the service or number of commemorations - but never more or less than 3/5/7). Even though antiphonal singing was abandoned in the Russian Church after the Nikonian reforms and the introduction of polyphonic choral singing, the rule of 3/5/7 remains. You will use the appointed Alleluia verses (Alleluia and the Tone is always announced first, just as you normally do <I assume>), and the choir sings Alleluia for the first time; then you intone the verses from the first source (usually the Octoechos in the Tone of the week), then from the Menaion or Triodion. The number of verses will always be 2/4/6, according to the rank, etc. If you run out of verses to make up 2/4/6, you intone "Alleluia" as your last verse, and the choir finishes up by repeating it.

                So, in summary, the reader has the 2/4/6 verse rule, while the choir has the 3/5/7 Alleluia rule. Figuring out the verse source details is a skill which the reader has to acquire on his own, and is not always very easy or intuitive. (This is one of the reasons why the choir cues are posted on the Ustav and Typicon Yahoo Groups, and you can learn a lot by following these for a while until you get the hang of it.)

                Nikita Simmons
                Woodburn, Oregon

                --- In orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com, Symeon <fyh3@...> wrote:
                >
                > Steve Robinson wrote:
                > > ----- Original Message ----- From: David L
                > >
                > > The previous Sunday, the Sunday of David, Joseph, and James, there
                > > were 3 alleluia verses. The first one is read immediately after I
                > > first say, "alleluia, alleluia, alleluia". Right?
                > >
                > > ***Right.
                >
                > There are probably different practices here, but I never say an
                > "Alleluia, Alleluia, Alleluia" if I have a verse to read immediately --
                > but rather use the "triple-A" /in lieu of/ a Psalm verse. The rubrics
                > in front of the 2nd Edition of the St. Tikhon's Apostol ("Concerning
                > Prokeimena and Alleluia Verses") indicates this as well:
                >
                > "Reader: The Alleluia in the __ Tone, [and immediately he chants the
                > first verse of the first Alleluia]"
                >
                > Perhaps I'm doing this wrong (if there's a clear "wrong" here), but I've
                > /not/ been following the other paradigm in that section when there is
                > but /one/ pair of verses to read: I just announce "Alleluia in the XX
                > Tone" and expect the choir to come in, which they obligingly do.
                >
                > The "triple-A" is essential for the occasions where there is an Epistle
                > reading called for, but no Psalm verse in sight -- or perhaps just one
                > (I forget now exactly when: the rite of baptism?). I've not hit this
                > very much yet, so I'm always out of practice and unsure when I do.
                >
                > /Rdr. Symeon Noon
                > Monterey, Calif. -- ROCOR
                >
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