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Great complines

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  • Katembue
    Dear all, I am preparing my reader services for the first week of lent. I have a question about Great compline during the first week when Saint Andrew canon is
    Message 1 of 10 , Feb 23, 2009
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      Dear all,


      I am preparing my reader services for the first week of lent. I have a
      question about Great compline during the first week when Saint Andrew
      canon is read. I am wondering about the difference between Russian and
      Greek practice.

      1° In the Russian practice, it seems that after the introductory
      prayers, then comes psalm 69 and after that immediately the Great canon

      2° However, when I check my text in Spanish translated from arabic
      (so a Greek practice), I find the arrangement described here
      <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compline#Great_Compline> in wikipedia.


      First Part

      Psalms[8] 4, 6, and 12; Glory..., etc.; Psalms 24, 30, 90; then the
      hymn "God is With Us" and troparia, the Creed, the hymn "O Most holy
      Lady Theotokos", the Trisagion and Troparia of the Day, Kyrie eleison
      (40 times), "More honorable than the cherubim..." and the Prayer of St.
      Basil the Great.

      Second Part

      Psalms 50, 101, and the Prayer of Manasses; the Trisagion, and Troparia
      of Repentance,[9] Kyrie eleison (40 times), "More honorable than the
      cherubim..." and the Prayer of St. Mardarius.

      Third Part

      Psalms 69, 142, and the Small Doxology;[10] then the Canon followed by
      Axion Estin, the Trisagion, the hymn "O Lord of Hosts, be with us...",
      Kyrie eleison (40 times), the Prayer of the Hours, "More honorable than
      the cherubim....", the Prayer of St. Ephraim, Trisagion, the
      Supplicatory Prayer of Paul the Monk, and the Prayer to Jesus Christ of
      Antiochus the Monk.[3] Then the mutual forgiveness. Instead of the
      normal final blessing by the Priest, all prostrate themseles while the
      priest reads a special prayer intercessory prayer. Then the Litany and
      the veneration of Icons and Relics.


      Is the second version the Greek practice? With the canon said in the
      third part and not at the beginning of the service?


      Thanky you.


      Jean-Serge




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Philip Sokolov
      Dear Jean-Serge, It has nothing to do with Russian vs Greek. Let me annotate the below ... (If it be the First Week of Great Lent, immediately after Come, let
      Message 2 of 10 , Feb 23, 2009
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        Dear Jean-Serge,

        It has nothing to do with Russian vs Greek. Let me annotate the below
        service:

        > 2° However, when I check my text in Spanish translated from arabic
        > (so a Greek practice), I find the arrangement described here
        > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compline#Great_Compline> in wikipedia.
        >
        >
        > First Part

        (If it be the First Week of Great Lent, immediately after Come, let us
        worship... we begin with Psalm 69. And having completed this, we sing
        the Great Canon.

        But, if it not be the First Week of Great Lent, after Come, let us
        worship... we begin with:)

        > Psalms 4, 6, and 12; Glory..., etc.; Psalms 24, 30, 90; then the
        > hymn "God is With Us" and troparia, the Creed, the hymn "O Most holy
        > Lady Theotokos", the Trisagion and Troparia of the Day, Kyrie eleison
        > (40 times), "More honorable than the cherubim..." and the Prayer of St.
        > Basil the Great.
        >
        > Second Part
        >
        > Psalms 50, 101, and the Prayer of Manasses; the Trisagion, and Troparia
        > of Repentance, Kyrie eleison (40 times), "More honorable than the
        > cherubim..." and the Prayer of St. Mardarius.
        >
        > Third Part

        (Psalm 69 is omitted if the Great Canon is read in the First Week of
        Great Lent.)

        > Psalms 69, 142, and the Small Doxology; then the Canon

        (except when the Great Canon of St. Andrew has been sung)

        > followed by
        > Axion Estin, the Trisagion, the hymn "O Lord of Hosts, be with us...",
        > Kyrie eleison (40 times), the Prayer of the Hours, "More honorable than
        > the cherubim....", the Prayer of St. Ephraim, Trisagion, the
        > Supplicatory Prayer of Paul the Monk, and the Prayer to Jesus Christ of
        > Antiochus the Monk. Then the mutual forgiveness. Instead of the
        > normal final blessing by the Priest, all prostrate themseles while the
        > priest reads a special prayer intercessory prayer. Then the Litany and
        > the veneration of Icons and Relics.

        Regards,

        --Philip
      • Katembue
        Dear Philip, Thank you for your indication; but my text (translated from Arabic, not the wikipedia one) is very clear and has the following annotation after
        Message 3 of 10 , Feb 24, 2009
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          Dear Philip,


          Thank you for your indication; but my text (translated from Arabic, not
          the wikipedia one) is very clear and has the following annotation after
          the small doxology :

          "Notese que aqui, en la primer semana del Gran Ayuno, sera cantado el
          Gran Canon" which mean Note that at this moment, during the first week
          of the Great Fast, the Great Canon will be sung . Thus, the indication
          specifically says that the Great Compline during the first week of the
          Great Lent follow the order I gave previously with an addition of the
          Canon after the doxology (which means the 3rd part) and not immediately
          at the beginning of the service after Introductory prayers and Psalm 69
          as I've seen in the website of Saint Jonah parish and in my own Triod of
          Lent (that is translated from Slavonic). Since my Spanish text is
          translated from Arabic and in general squares with Greek practices, I
          supposed there may be a difference between Greek and Russian practices.

          So according to you, when you have finished singing the canon, you
          immediately goes to Psalm 4,6 and 12 and so on.

          I don't have a Horologion from Holy Trinity monastery that should be
          Greek so could someone check? By the way it is not a catastropha and
          I'll follow the indications in Spanish until it is clarified.


          Thank you again. I hope you understand better what I mean now. I'm not
          questionning what you're saying or my Spanish translation but simply
          asking if, actually, in some practices that I suppose to be Greek, the
          Great canon, even during Great Lent, is sung after the doxology ans
          clearly indicated in my text.


          Jean-Serge



          --- In orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com, Philip Sokolov <phils@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Dear Jean-Serge,
          >
          > It has nothing to do with Russian vs Greek. Let me annotate the below
          > service:
          >
          > > 2° However, when I check my text in Spanish translated from
          arabic
          > > (so a Greek practice), I find the arrangement described here
          > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compline#Great_Compline> in wikipedia.
          > >
          > >
          > > First Part
          >
          > (If it be the First Week of Great Lent, immediately after Come, let us
          > worship... we begin with Psalm 69. And having completed this, we sing
          > the Great Canon.
          >
          > But, if it not be the First Week of Great Lent, after Come, let us
          > worship... we begin with:)
          >
          > > Psalms 4, 6, and 12; Glory..., etc.; Psalms 24, 30, 90; then the
          > > hymn "God is With Us" and troparia, the Creed, the hymn "O Most holy
          > > Lady Theotokos", the Trisagion and Troparia of the Day, Kyrie
          eleison
          > > (40 times), "More honorable than the cherubim..." and the Prayer of
          St.
          > > Basil the Great.
          > >
          > > Second Part
          > >
          > > Psalms 50, 101, and the Prayer of Manasses; the Trisagion, and
          Troparia
          > > of Repentance, Kyrie eleison (40 times), "More honorable than the
          > > cherubim..." and the Prayer of St. Mardarius.
          > >
          > > Third Part
          >
          > (Psalm 69 is omitted if the Great Canon is read in the First Week of
          > Great Lent.)
          >
          > > Psalms 69, 142, and the Small Doxology; then the Canon
          >
          > (except when the Great Canon of St. Andrew has been sung)
          >
          > > followed by
          > > Axion Estin, the Trisagion, the hymn "O Lord of Hosts, be with
          us...",
          > > Kyrie eleison (40 times), the Prayer of the Hours, "More honorable
          than
          > > the cherubim....", the Prayer of St. Ephraim, Trisagion, the
          > > Supplicatory Prayer of Paul the Monk, and the Prayer to Jesus Christ
          of
          > > Antiochus the Monk. Then the mutual forgiveness. Instead of the
          > > normal final blessing by the Priest, all prostrate themseles while
          the
          > > priest reads a special prayer intercessory prayer. Then the Litany
          and
          > > the veneration of Icons and Relics.
          >
          > Regards,
          >
          > --Philip
          >



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Katembue
          Dear all, I went to the library today and found the explanation : in the current Greek practice, the Great canon may be read after the doxology, which explains
          Message 4 of 10 , Feb 24, 2009
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            Dear all,


            I went to the library today and found the explanation : in the current
            Greek practice, the Great canon may be read after the doxology, which
            explains why my Great complines in Spanish indicates to do so.


            Jean-Serge

            --- In orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com, Philip Sokolov <phils@...> wrote:
            >
            > Dear Jean-Serge,
            >
            > It has nothing to do with Russian vs Greek. Let me annotate the below
            > service:
            >
            > > 2° However, when I check my text in Spanish translated from arabic
            > > (so a Greek practice), I find the arrangement described here
            > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compline#Great_Compline> in wikipedia.
            > >
            > >
            > > First Part
            >
            > (If it be the First Week of Great Lent, immediately after Come, let us
            > worship... we begin with Psalm 69. And having completed this, we sing
            > the Great Canon.
            >
            > But, if it not be the First Week of Great Lent, after Come, let us
            > worship... we begin with:)
            >
            > > Psalms 4, 6, and 12; Glory..., etc.; Psalms 24, 30, 90; then the
            > > hymn "God is With Us" and troparia, the Creed, the hymn "O Most holy
            > > Lady Theotokos", the Trisagion and Troparia of the Day, Kyrie eleison
            > > (40 times), "More honorable than the cherubim..." and the Prayer
            of St.
            > > Basil the Great.
            > >
            > > Second Part
            > >
            > > Psalms 50, 101, and the Prayer of Manasses; the Trisagion, and
            Troparia
            > > of Repentance, Kyrie eleison (40 times), "More honorable than the
            > > cherubim..." and the Prayer of St. Mardarius.
            > >
            > > Third Part
            >
            > (Psalm 69 is omitted if the Great Canon is read in the First Week of
            > Great Lent.)
            >
            > > Psalms 69, 142, and the Small Doxology; then the Canon
            >
            > (except when the Great Canon of St. Andrew has been sung)
            >
            > > followed by
            > > Axion Estin, the Trisagion, the hymn "O Lord of Hosts, be with us...",
            > > Kyrie eleison (40 times), the Prayer of the Hours, "More honorable
            than
            > > the cherubim....", the Prayer of St. Ephraim, Trisagion, the
            > > Supplicatory Prayer of Paul the Monk, and the Prayer to Jesus
            Christ of
            > > Antiochus the Monk. Then the mutual forgiveness. Instead of the
            > > normal final blessing by the Priest, all prostrate themseles while the
            > > priest reads a special prayer intercessory prayer. Then the Litany and
            > > the veneration of Icons and Relics.
            >
            > Regards,
            >
            > --Philip
            >
          • andonioscornett
            Jean-Serge, I realize this is old, but I can confirm this practice as well...In the Papayiannis Systema Typikou, and his handbook for readers and psaltis, it
            Message 5 of 10 , Apr 3, 2014
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              Jean-Serge,

              I realize this is old, but I can confirm this practice as well...In the Papayiannis Systema Typikou, and his handbook for readers and psaltis, it says the same. If you look at this year's notes from the EP for the beginning of the Canon, he also claims the same practice. No Psalm 69 in the beginning, it belongs towards the latter half. I'm not sure where the Psalm 69 tradition added in the beginning came about. The Typikon mentioned above, as well as that of the EP say to begin the canon where the other canons rightly go: After the Doxology. 

              Anthony
            • Philip Sokolov
              ... According to _The Typikon Decoded_ by Archimandrite (now Archbishop) Job Getcha, to begin the service with Psalm 69 and the Great Canon is, like most
              Message 6 of 10 , Apr 3, 2014
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                Anthony Cornett wrote:

                > I realize this is old, but I can confirm this practice as well...In the
                > Papayiannis Systema Typikou, and his handbook for readers and psaltis,
                > it says the same. If you look at this year's notes from the EP for the
                > beginning of the Canon, he also claims the same practice. No Psalm 69 in
                > the beginning, it belongs towards the latter half. I'm not sure where
                > the Psalm 69 tradition added in the beginning came about. The Typikon
                > mentioned above, as well as that of the EP say to begin the canon where
                > the other canons rightly go: After the Doxology.

                According to _The Typikon Decoded_ by Archimandrite (now Archbishop) Job
                Getcha, to begin the service with Psalm 69 and the Great Canon is, like
                most Russian "peculiarities," the ancient practice as reflected in all
                versions of the Typikon of St. Sabbas in Greek that exist (dating back
                to the 12th century), as well as the Greek Horologion. Beginning it
                after the Doxology is a "contemporary Greek" rubric.

                In Christ,
                Philip
              • andonioscornett
                Thanks for that note, Philip. I ll have to check out any notes in Systema Typikou, it typically (no pun intended) documents the progression of practice quite
                Message 7 of 10 , Apr 3, 2014
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                  Thanks for that note, Philip. I'll have to check out any notes in Systema Typikou, it typically (no pun intended) documents the progression of practice quite well. Great Compline in general is a strange service that seems to be a piecing together of a handful of services in almost a vigil-like manner. The double occurrence of a particular Psalm (69) is unlike any service that I'm aware of, and seems like either a) the services that were merged kept the texts in full or b) 2 different practices were compiled into one rubric without proper documentation.

                  I can think of another instance I've run into recently with a similar happening that is peculiar to Greek services: Weekday Divine Liturgy Antiphons. For years, at least in America, the faithful didn't have many weekday services, unless it was a major feast. Looking at many parish calendars across the nation, it still appears to be the case for many communities, unfortunately. Many English texts of the Divine Liturgy that were compiled for Sunday purposes often list a particular rubric at the place of the 2nd Antiphon regarding replacing 'risen from the dead' with 'wondrous in the saints' if it is a weekday celebration. There is no follow-up rubric for the 3rd Antiphon to explain what is to be done here since it is not resurrectional or festal. What the Greek service books and typikon clearly show is that the 2nd Antiphon becomes 'Through the intercessions of Your saints, save us, O Lord', and the 3rd Antiphon set is where 'wondrous in the saints' is deployed. Entrance immediately; no hymns until after the entrance.

                  Most English publications give no hints at this, and so it's often seemingly done in the manner of a Sunday or Feast Day Liturgy. I'd imagine the Sabaite Typikon doesn't have this issue with the Beatitudes, and frankly neither does the Great Church, but there hasn't been a proper translation readily available as far as I'm aware of. 

                  -Anthony
                • Philip Sokolov
                  ... When it is read at the beginning, it is omitted later (after the third Come, let us worship ), at least in Russian Tradition. ... Actually, Russians do
                  Message 8 of 10 , Apr 3, 2014
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                    > The double occurrence of a
                    > particular Psalm (69) is unlike any service that I'm aware of

                    When it is read at the beginning, it is omitted later (after the third
                    "Come, let us worship"), at least in Russian Tradition.

                    > What the Greek service
                    > books and typikon clearly show is that the 2nd Antiphon becomes 'Through
                    > the intercessions of Your saints, save us, O Lord', and the 3rd Antiphon
                    > set is where 'wondrous in the saints' is deployed.
                    >
                    > I'd
                    > imagine the Sabaite Typikon doesn't have this issue with the Beatitudes

                    Actually, Russians do sing the Daily Antiphons -- Psalm 91, 92, and 94
                    -- with refrains exactly as you describe, on weekdays when there are no
                    Beatitudes Troparia indicated in the Menaion.

                    But I'm not 100% certain this practice is specified in the Typikon.

                    --Philip
                  • andonioscornett
                    I get that it is removed later if read in the beginning, but why would it be placed in the beginning at all? Doesn t that strike you as odd? There appears to
                    Message 9 of 10 , Apr 3, 2014
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                      I get that it is removed later if read in the beginning, but why would it be placed in the beginning at all? Doesn't that strike you as odd? There appears to be a clear position for chanting of Canons at the end of the Small Doxology, so it seems only fitting to place any type of Canon here, including that of St Andrew. My only wild guess is that perhaps the tradition of reading it at the beginning was for the entirety of it, which is really for Small Compline: a service that includes Psalm 69 in the beginning. However, even in this service the Canon doesn't begin immediately after the Psalm. I can't think of any service where something of that sort begins immediately after a Psalm without some sort of Doxology preceding the reading. Whether it be the full Small/Great Doxology, or even a simple "Glory;both now". 

                      Interesting, I didn't realize that particular Antiphon practice was also the Russian practice for weekday. 
                    • andonioscornett
                      I should note that the Triodion also sets an evening Matins service for reading the Great Canon as well.
                      Message 10 of 10 , Apr 4, 2014
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                        I should note that the Triodion also sets an evening Matins service for reading the Great Canon as well. 
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