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Re: [orthodox-readers] Re: gospel reading at typika

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  • Joseph Rice
    In our small mission, I have taught very clearly, and been supported by the priest that serves our mission, that Readers, Subdeacons, and Deacons are
    Message 1 of 40 , Dec 7, 2007
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      In our small mission, I have taught very clearly, and been supported by the priest that serves our mission, that Readers, Subdeacons, and Deacons are clergymen. He insists that I wear my cassock during confession, and has pointed out to our small flock that, in his absence, I am directed to be the spiritual leader of the community, with regard to leading services, education, although, of course, not as a spiritual father.

      Rdr Joseph Rice

      "Rd. Andreas MacLean" <andreas.anagnostis@...> wrote:
      Whether you wear your rasso or not does not make you a clergyman; whether
      you're buried with a priest's service or layman's service does not make you
      a clergyman; whether you are trained at St. Vlads or not does not make you a
      clergyman. Being tonsured and being ordained with cheirothesia makes you a
      clergyman.

      An Orthodox priest who does not recognize a reader as a clergyman should be
      instructed in the truth of his Faith, and then prayed for. Are we only to
      recognize what is biblical for our clerical orders? Then we are no different
      than the heretics. Authority in the Orthodox Church does not come from the
      Holy Scripture alone, so the argument that only scriptural orders are "real"
      clergymen is quite heretical from an Orthodox viewpoint.

      A reader should wear his rasso whenever he and his Spiritual Father deem it
      correct. Canon 27 of the 6th Ecumenical Council requires all clergymen
      (readers too!) to wear clerical attire at threat of excommuncation for one
      week. We just had a man ordained a reader at my parish by Archbishop
      Demetrios of America, and in his remarks, His Eminence pointed out that the
      new reader was now a member of the clergy and had the right to wear the
      rasso.

      Reader Andreas, the unworthy clergyman

      On 12/7/07, Deacon Michael Bishop <Photo@...> wrote:
      >
      > I agree that readers are clergy, but I would not say as much as a
      > presbyter. In actual practice, unfortunately, readers often are not
      > treated as clergy. Just this year on one list I mentioned that readers
      > are clergy and an Orthodox priest responded, "That's news to me."
      >
      > Also, a reader is not buried the same way that a priest is. The same is
      > true for a subdeacon and a deacon. As Fr. John pointed out, a deacon is
      > vested in his vestments and holds the censer, but the burial ceremony is
      > the same as a layman. I really do not know how a subdeacon nor a reader
      > is clothed when they are buried. I would hope that they are at least in
      > a cassock.
      >
      > In actual practice readers often are not considered clergy. I do not
      > agree with this, but this is the reality which I have observed.
      >
      > By the way, when the Gospel is read during the Liturgy, the bishop
      > stands with his head uncovered and listes to it as a layman.
      >
      > Not too long ago I listened to a talk and the priest said that there are
      > three orders of clergy: deacon, presbyter, and bishop. I questioned
      > him about leaving out reader and subdeacon and his answer was that they
      > are later addition and not biblical.
      >
      > There are times when a reader and subdeacon, and even deacon, are not
      > considered clergy. Most of the time, however, a deacon is considered
      > clergy.
      >
      > I have never heard anybody saying that a deacon cannot wear his cassock
      > as he travels to and from church. I have been told that it is
      > inappropriate for a reader to wear his cassock any time other than
      > during a service. I have also been told to wear my cassock any time I
      > was at any Orthodox function, including the Greek Festival.
      >
      > Deacon Michael
      >
      > Rd. Andreas MacLean wrote:
      > > " wonder if the practice of reading the Scripture facing the East has to
      > > do with the fact that the readers are lay people."
      > >
      > > Readers are not layman, they are as much a clergyman as a presbyter is.
      > What
      > > an astonishing statement to come from you Deacon Michael!
      > >
      > > Readers are first tonsured to clerical rank, and then ordained, by the
      > > laying on of hands by a bishop, as readers. As every canon in the Rudder
      > > that mentions clergy and/or the sacerdotal list refers to readers, I'll
      > > highlight just a couple:
      > >
      > > - Canon 2 of the Holy Apostles: A presbyter must be ordained by a
      > > single bishop, and so must a deacon and other clergymen
      > > - Canon 27 of the Holy Apostles: As to bachelors who have entered the
      > > clergy, we allow only anagnosts and psalts to marry, if they wish to do
      > so.
      > > This is reiterated in Canon 6 of the 6th Council.
      > >
      > > In Christ,
      > > Reader Andreas
      > >
      > >
      > > On 12/7/07, Deacon Michael Bishop <Photo@...<Photo%40deaconmichael.com>>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > >> I wonder if the practice of reading the Scripture facing the East has
      > to
      > >>
      > >>do with the fact that the readers are lay people. A deacon is buried as
      > >>a layman. Whereas the priest also preaches and the Gospel is part of
      > >>his preaching ministry. But then this argument falls apart for the
      > >>Gospel at Matins because the priest is facing East when he reads it.
      > >>
      > >>Who actually read the Epistles from Saint Paul to the Church at Corinth
      > >>or elsewhere? Was it the leader of the community or somebody in the
      > >>community who happened to have a copy of it? If it is the later, then
      > >>probably he would had read it from his place in the congregation.
      > >>
      > >>Probably the Greeks in this country started reading the Gospel facing
      > >>the people because of the pulpit. If they purchased a Protestant church
      > >>that already had a pulpit, perhaps they made use of it and had the
      > >>deacon read the Gospel from there so that he could place the Gospel book
      > >>on a stand.
      > >>
      > >>When my priest first asked for the Gospel stand, I could not understand
      > >>why. Now that I read the Gospel, I easily see why. I used to read the
      > >>Epistle and never thought of using a book stand. But the Epistle book
      > >>is much ligher than our Gospel book.
      > >>
      > >>Related to this question that Reader Alexander raised is where is the
      > >>deacon when he reads the Gospel? My experience has been that the deacon
      > >>reads it from the middle of the congregation. But there is also where
      > >>the ambon was until it was moved up to the front centuries later. But I
      > >>would think that the ambon is a later addition from what I envisoned
      > >>above.
      > >>
      > >>In some Russian practice churches the deacon reads the Gospel from the
      > >>soleo facing the East and often the people really can't hear it. Once I
      > >>commented on a list that the deacon reads the Gospel to the priest and
      > >>somebody did not like that at all. But in reality, this is what really
      > >>happens since the people can't hear it.
      > >>
      > >>I would be interested in any historical information, especially with
      > >>references. Thank you.
      > >>
      > >>Deacon Michael
      > >>
      > >>Alex Langley wrote:
      > >>
      > >>>My observation (OCA), is that only the priest (not even a deacon)
      > >>>reads the Gospel facing the laity. A deacon, sub-deacon, reader or
      > >>>layperson would the Epistle read facing the high place. By extension,
      > >>>at home, for a "reader" typica, the reader (be it my wife or myself)
      > >>>faces the icons.
      > >>>
      > >>>In Greek parishes where I have been blessed and tasked with the
      > >>>Epistle reading, I have always been instructed to face the people (and
      > >>>to do all the other Greek things which differ from Slavic practice).
      > >>>
      > >>>Rdr. Alexander
      > >>>
      > >>>--- In orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com<orthodox-readers%40yahoogroups.com>
      > <orthodox-readers%40yahoogroups.com>,
      > >>
      > >>"Rd. Andreas MacLean"
      > >>
      > >>><andreas.anagnostis@...> wrote:
      > >>>
      > >>>
      > >>>>Dear Rd. Joseph,
      > >>>>
      > >>>>We've had similar discussions before. Since your mission is OCA, and
      > >>>
      > >>>most
      > >>>
      > >>>
      > >>>>likely Slavic, I think you're supposed to face East for all
      > >>>
      > >>>readings, in any
      > >>>
      > >>>
      > >>>>Divine Service.
      > >>>>
      > >>>>In Christ,
      > >>>>Reader Andreas
      > >>>>
      > >>>
      > >>>
      > >>>
      > >>>
      > >>>To learn more about reader services, see:
      > >>>http://pages.prodigy.net/frjohnwhiteford/horologion.htm
      > >>>
      > >>>To access this lists archives, go to:
      > >>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
      > >>>ogion.htm
      > >>>
      > >>>To access this lists archives, go to:
      > >>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
      > >>>
      > >>>Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >>>
      > >>>
      > >>>
      > >>>
      > >>>
      > >>
      > >>--
      > >>Deacon Michael Bishop
      > >>PO Box 23485
      > >>Baltimore MD 21213-5485
      > >>http://www.Michael-Bishop.com <http://www.michael-bishop.com/> <
      > http://www.michael-bishop.com/>
      > >>
      > >>See you at the Russian Festival
      > >>17-19 October 2008
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > To learn more about reader services, see:
      > > http://pages.prodigy.net/frjohnwhiteford/horologion.htm
      > >
      > > To access this lists archives, go to:
      > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
      > > ogion.htm
      > >
      > > To access this lists archives, go to:
      > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
      > >
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      > --
      > Deacon Michael Bishop
      > PO Box 23485
      > Baltimore MD 21213-5485
      > http://www.Michael-Bishop.com <http://www.michael-bishop.com/>
      >
      > See you at the Russian Festival
      > 17-19 October 2008
      >
      >
      >

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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    • Alex Langley
      Deacon Michael, You made a couple very good points, I think: 1) the bishop must trust his priests and deacons to use good judgment . 2) some things don t need
      Message 40 of 40 , Jan 2, 2008
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        Deacon Michael,

        You made a couple very good points, I think:

        1) the bishop must trust his priests and deacons to "use good judgment".
        2) some things don't need to be obsessed about like having exactly the
        right color vestments, if to go home and get them would prevent others
        from praying, from receiving Holy Communion, or if to do so would
        otherwise cause disorder.

        Happy New Year to all...

        Rdr. Alexander

        --- In orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com, Deacon Michael Bishop
        <Photo@...> wrote:
        >
        > Yes, the bishop is the final authority, but does he have the time to
        > regulate everything that his priests, deacons, subdeacons, readers, and
        > choir directors do? Many decisions have to be made on the local level
        > and if there is still confusion, then go to the bishop.
        >
        > My parish was once split over the issue of whether or not hunting
        should
        > be permitted on our property. We then went to the bishop who ruled
        that
        > it should not be. But this was only after we could not come to a
        > decision on our own.
        >
        > Sunday Fr. John wore regular red and I wore dark red. For Vigil the
        > previous evening he wore dark red and I wore off-white robe with bright
        > red stole and cuffs. Why? Strictly practical consideration. I keep
        > the off-white robe and bright red stole and cuffs at home and the
        > service was at our chapel. The dark red was at the church, 10 miles
        > away. Should we have called the bishop to ask him what colors to wear?
        > I think not. Monday of last week the priest wore green and I wore
        > gold. By the time I learned that he was wearing green, it was too
        late
        > for me to get my green.
        >
        > These are just minor examples of where we have to make our own
        > decisions. I keep my vestments at church, but I have a set which I
        keep
        > at home. I also keep two cassocks and an outer cassock at church and
        > another set at home. I decide whether or not I will wear Russian or
        > Greek style. Fr. John trusts me to use good judgement. And the bishop
        > trusts him to use good judgement.
        >
        > Deacon Michael
        >
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