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Re: How were you trained?

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  • reader_john
    Christ Is In Our Midst! I would simply add that I had no formal training either. I was helped a great deal by a reader of many years in our parish, but his
    Message 1 of 24 , Jun 12, 2002
      Christ Is In Our Midst!

      I would simply add that I had no formal training either. I was helped
      a great deal by a reader of many years in our parish, but his style
      is carpatho-russian. The priest likes russian so I wanted to learn
      tones, chanting, etc. in the style he preferred. In the very
      beginning however, I thought I needed to learn byzantine because I
      was raised Greek Orthodox. This was a very frustrating time for me
      because I could find no one in our parish (OCA) who could teach me
      byzantine and web sites were equally difficult. In the end I came to
      entone my readings in my own style which I think is russian or very
      close to it, but I have nothing really to compare it to. I have been
      a reader for about 2 years and to this day I am not sure if I "read"
      correctly. If someone (like the priest) says I sounded good, I am not
      sure if I really did or if he is being polite!

      Probably the biggest help for me has been singing in the choir. There
      I have finally come to recognize and understand the 8 tones. When I
      read the hours before Liturgy for example, I have the Troparia and
      Kontakia for the day (which I print off the OCA website) and I can
      now sing them in the proper tone instead of just entoning them (as if
      I was reading a bible passage). The choir has helped me to understand
      the order of the service as well. If the choir can not sing on a
      Sunday or if the service is mid-week and sparesly attended, I am
      fairly comfortable reading and singing in place of the choir.

      I look forward to learning more about the minor order of Reader and
      what he can do liturgically. This website has helped in that regard.
      One surprising example, if I understand correctly, is that a
      Typicon service can be served by a Reader. I assume that if this is
      correct, a Reader can administer the Host as well. Please correct me
      if I am wrong.

      It would be beneficial if there were a more formal method of training
      for Readers. This could be done via the internet, or a weekend
      seminar, or one on one with the parish priest. I think there is a
      need for it.
      Love In Christ,
      John
    • Alex Vallens
      Christ has Ascended! In Glory! ... He is and ever shall be! ... I am unsure of what you mean by administer the Host ? If you are referring to Holy Communion,
      Message 2 of 24 , Jun 12, 2002
        Christ has Ascended!
        In Glory!


        > Christ Is In Our Midst!

        He is and ever shall be!

        > I look forward to learning more about the minor order of Reader and
        > what he can do liturgically. This website has helped in that regard.
        > One surprising example, if I understand correctly, is that a
        > Typicon service can be served by a Reader. I assume that if this is
        > correct, a Reader can administer the Host as well. Please correct me
        > if I am wrong.

        I am unsure of what you mean by "administer the Host"? If you are referring
        to Holy Communion, then the answer is that no, you may not do this.

        The Typika service is a replacement to the Divine Liturgy, that follows the
        structure of the Liturgy, but with most of the Liturgy of the Faithful
        removed. It is served when a Priest cannot be present, and can be served by
        anyone- Deacon, Sub-deacon, Reader, Layman. However, no administering of
        Communion takes place, as there is noone present who may Consecrate the
        gifts. Furthermore, as it is a "Reader's" service, nothing takes place in
        the Sanctuary and the curtain is not opened, even if a Deacon is head
        celebrant.

        Only Bishops and Priests may administer Communion to the faithful. In the
        Western Rite, Deacons may be given the blessing to administer Communion to
        the sick, but I do not believe that this is the case in the Byzantine Rite.
        Furthermore, please note that Readers may not touch the Holy Table, take
        anything off of it, nor touch the Holy Vessels (i.e. Chalice, Diskos, Star,
        Spoon, Spear). As such, it would be impossible for a Reader to even get near
        the reserve Communion, stored in the Tabernacle, which sits on the Holy
        Table!

        May the Lord, Our God, continue to guide you throughout your ministry as a
        Reader!

        With love in Christ,
        Reader Alexander
        (Alex)
      • reader_john
        Alex, Thank you for your message. A Deacon recently served a Typicon service on a Sunday in which our priest was absent. The Holy Gifts were pre-sanctified and
        Message 3 of 24 , Jun 13, 2002
          Alex,

          Thank you for your message.

          A Deacon recently served a Typicon service on a Sunday in which our
          priest was absent. The Holy Gifts were pre-sanctified and the Deacon
          administered them to the faithful. With this in mind I asked if a
          Reader can also administer Holy Communion which has been pre-
          sanctified? Is it your opinion that only a priest can give Communion?

          Regarding the touching of the alter table, can you clarify? Candles
          need replacing, wax needs removal, etc.

          Love In Christ,

          Reader John
          Burton Michigan

          --- In orthodox-readers@y..., Alex Vallens <vallens@c...> wrote:
          > Christ has Ascended!
          > In Glory!
          >
          >
          > > Christ Is In Our Midst!
          >
          > He is and ever shall be!
          >
          > > I look forward to learning more about the minor order of Reader
          and
          > > what he can do liturgically. This website has helped in that
          regard.
          > > One surprising example, if I understand correctly, is that a
          > > Typicon service can be served by a Reader. I assume that if this
          is
          > > correct, a Reader can administer the Host as well. Please correct
          me
          > > if I am wrong.
          >
          > I am unsure of what you mean by "administer the Host"? If you are
          referring
          > to Holy Communion, then the answer is that no, you may not do this.
          >
          > The Typika service is a replacement to the Divine Liturgy, that
          follows the
          > structure of the Liturgy, but with most of the Liturgy of the
          Faithful
          > removed. It is served when a Priest cannot be present, and can be
          served by
          > anyone- Deacon, Sub-deacon, Reader, Layman. However, no
          administering of
          > Communion takes place, as there is noone present who may Consecrate
          the
          > gifts. Furthermore, as it is a "Reader's" service, nothing takes
          place in
          > the Sanctuary and the curtain is not opened, even if a Deacon is
          head
          > celebrant.
          >
          > Only Bishops and Priests may administer Communion to the faithful.
          In the
          > Western Rite, Deacons may be given the blessing to administer
          Communion to
          > the sick, but I do not believe that this is the case in the
          Byzantine Rite.
          > Furthermore, please note that Readers may not touch the Holy Table,
          take
          > anything off of it, nor touch the Holy Vessels (i.e. Chalice,
          Diskos, Star,
          > Spoon, Spear). As such, it would be impossible for a Reader to even
          get near
          > the reserve Communion, stored in the Tabernacle, which sits on the
          Holy
          > Table!
          >
          > May the Lord, Our God, continue to guide you throughout your
          ministry as a
          > Reader!
          >
          > With love in Christ,
          > Reader Alexander
          > (Alex)
        • Anthony Jacobs
          Dear Reader John, Greetings on the Feast of our Lord s Ascension! Here s an excerpt from a letter of Bishop Tikhon (OCA) to the flock, from 1988:
          Message 4 of 24 , Jun 13, 2002
            Dear Reader John,

            Greetings on the Feast of our Lord's Ascension!

            Here's an excerpt from a letter of Bishop Tikhon (OCA) to the flock, from 1988:

            http://www.holy-trinity.org/liturgics/tikhon.lit1.html

            VIII. [The Duties of those in Minor Orders]

            Tonsured Readers and Ordained Subdeacons, when serving or reading, should wear the vestments appropriate to their function. The garment of a Reader is the Sticharion; that of the Subdeacon is the Sticharion and Orarion worn crossed about the torso . The cassock (podriassnik, anderi, or undercassock) is not the garment or sign of a Reader or Subdeacon, but is a garment which is appropriately worn under the sticharion.

            Tonsured Readers may make ready the vestments in the Altar for the Sacred Servers and Church Servers before a service. They may prepare the censer, and carry lights, or fans, during processions and entrances, hold the holy water vessel and brush, hold the vessel with blessed oil or the dish with the blessed bread at Vigil, and they may cut up and otherwise prepare that blessed bread. They may themselves light the lights and lamps when prescribed by the ritual. They may prepare the vessels which contain w ine and water and fill them before the Divine Liturgy, and they may operate the altar curtain according to the prescribe ritual. They may prepare the warm water and bear it to the Deacon or Priest during the Divine Liturgy. They may bear the episcopal st aff, ascend the ambo to sing the trio at the Trisagion of the Divine Liturgy, bear and page the Bishop's Service Book, may secure the train of the Bishop's mantle, and may distribute the hierarchical Eagle-rugs. These privileges are all in addition to the ir assigned responsibility of reading in Church (not only in Church but from the Ambo, or on the raised "Vesting Place").

            Ordained Subdeacons may do all those things permitted to Readers. In addition, they may touch the Holy Altar Table, when there is a necessity or direction to do so. For example, a Subdeacon may remove the large cloth which covers the Holy Table and everything on it between services. He may prepare the Table of Oblation for Divine Liturgy. A Subdeacon may remove the Dikirion and/or Trikirion from the Holy Table, if these have been placed there (i.e., when there is no special stand for them behind the Holy Table). Subdeacons may open the Holy Doors, as at the beginning of the Divine Liturgy, when a hierarch is serving. Subdeacons vest a hierarch in his holy vestments when there are not enough deacons to do so.

            Untonsured Readers, both men and women, are a regular part of our Church life, and will continue to be so. Where there are many Readers, then they should read according to a (fair) schedule made up by the Senior Priest of the Cathedral or the person he appoints to do so. There is certainly no reason to exclude women from reading when I am serving, especially since some of the finest reading I have ever heard has been by women; for example, Mrs. Olga Raevsky-Hughes, Matushka Emilie Lisenko, Matushka Ma rgaret Gisetti, and others. Few men read this well -- soberly, correctly, distinctly, according to the established patterns, devoutly, not self-consciously, and in tune.

            also, on the issue of training for readers:

            Summer School of Liturgical Music: This will be held at Holy Trinity Seminary (ROCOR), Jordanville, New York from 30 June through 13 July, 2002. This conference was established with the blessing of Metropolitan Laurus. The full course of study consists of three summer sessions, at the end of which the graduates will be certified as church choir directors and/or readers. Academic credit is available. A non-certification track is offered to those seeking enrichment in the area of Russian Orthodox Music, but do not intend to become church readers or choir directors. The course load, full or partial, may be agreed upon in consultation with the school administration. The course offerings are: 1.) History of Russian Church Music, 2.) Music Theory and Musicianship, 3.) Choir Conducting Techniques and Practicum, 4.) Voice Class, 5.) Liturgical Performance Practice, 6.) Church Slavonic, 7.) Liturgics for Choir Directors. For more information please contact:

            Fr Andre Papkov
            54 Fourth Street, Ilion, NY 13357;
            tel 315 / 894-6274
            email: musicschool@....

            Anthony


            -----Original Message-----
            From: reader_john [mailto:jmanutes@...]
            Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 8:03 PM
            To: orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [orthodox-readers] Re: How were you trained?


            Christ Is In Our Midst!

            <snip>

            I look forward to learning more about the minor order of Reader and
            what he can do liturgically. This website has helped in that regard.
            One surprising example, if I understand correctly, is that a
            Typicon service can be served by a Reader. I assume that if this is
            correct, a Reader can administer the Host as well. Please correct me
            if I am wrong.

            It would be beneficial if there were a more formal method of training
            for Readers. This could be done via the internet, or a weekend
            seminar, or one on one with the parish priest. I think there is a
            need for it.

            Love In Christ,
            John
          • Antony Dyl
            ... Dear Subdeacon Tikhon, It was good to meet you out in Colorado. I never underwent any formal training process - back in 1989 when I converted I was in a
            Message 5 of 24 , Jun 13, 2002
              --- "Glen M. Thurman" <gthurman@...> wrote:
              > All,
              >
              > Christ is Risen!
              >
              > After returning from Colorado (and visiting some of
              > the list members
              > there!), I see that there hasn't been much activity
              > here and thought I'd
              > start another thread.
              >
              > Reflecting on the process I went through to become a
              > subdeacon (including
              > the few minutes of between being tonsured a reader
              > and being ordained a
              > subdeacon), my experience is that there was no
              > formal process to train me. I
              > was wondering what others' experience has been in
              > preparing to become
              > readers.
              >
              > In Christ,
              > Subdeacon Tikhon

              Dear Subdeacon Tikhon,

              It was good to meet you out in Colorado. I never
              underwent any formal training process - back in 1989
              when I converted I was in a very small mission (only
              about 17 people) and I couldn't sing to save my life.
              So to help out I started reading during the all night
              vigils. some of the other "readers" gave me some
              pointers. in 1990, when I had moved to a somewhat
              larger parish and the priest wanted me tonsured a
              reader, I got some instruction from the choir
              director, but that was mostly about how to do this or
              that service. Mostly, it was learning by doing, and
              by watching and listening to others do it.

              Reader Antony

              __________________________________________________
              Do You Yahoo!?
              Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
              http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
            • Reader Michael J. Bishop
              Deacon can administer the Eucharist. This is really their function. This is why they are ordained just before Communion and priests are ordained before the
              Message 6 of 24 , Jun 13, 2002
                Deacon can administer the Eucharist. This is really their function. This is
                why they are ordained just before Communion and priests are ordained before the
                Consecration since their function is to consecrate the gifts. There has been a
                time that subdeacons administered the Eucharist, but I have very little
                information on this. I came across this while working on my thesis.

                Also, at Communion time the deacon brings out the chalice and invites everybody
                to approach and then he gives it back to the priest. But it is really the
                deacon's job to administer. Some where in history this was changed. I do not
                have the details here.

                It appears that who can and cannot touch the Holy Table depends also on
                jurisdiction. In the Slavic tradition, only subdeacons and higher can touch the
                Holy Table or put things on it or take things off it. In the Greek tradition,
                it seems to be different. I have been told by at least one bishop to retrieve
                something from the Holy Table. I think that I have also been told to put things
                on the Holy Table, but I can't say for sure now.

                In the Russian tradition, a subdeacon does not cross in front of the Holy
                Table. In the Greek tradition, when he is serving with the bishop, he can cross
                in front of the Holy Table for the censing. I was instructed by a certain
                bishop to do so and he told me that the first time that I served with him, he
                had expected me to cross in front of the Holy Table while remaining in the
                sanctuary and not to exit the North Door and Enter the South Door.

                I hope that my response here invites more questions and discussion. I am not
                mentioning names intentionally. Also, in some cases I do not remember the
                names.

                Reader Michael

                Alex Vallens wrote:

                > Christ has Ascended!
                > In Glory!
                >
                > > Christ Is In Our Midst!
                >
                > He is and ever shall be!
                >
                > > I look forward to learning more about the minor order of Reader and
                > > what he can do liturgically. This website has helped in that regard.
                > > One surprising example, if I understand correctly, is that a
                > > Typicon service can be served by a Reader. I assume that if this is
                > > correct, a Reader can administer the Host as well. Please correct me
                > > if I am wrong.
                >
                > I am unsure of what you mean by "administer the Host"? If you are referring
                > to Holy Communion, then the answer is that no, you may not do this.
                >
                > The Typika service is a replacement to the Divine Liturgy, that follows the
                > structure of the Liturgy, but with most of the Liturgy of the Faithful
                > removed. It is served when a Priest cannot be present, and can be served by
                > anyone- Deacon, Sub-deacon, Reader, Layman. However, no administering of
                > Communion takes place, as there is noone present who may Consecrate the
                > gifts. Furthermore, as it is a "Reader's" service, nothing takes place in
                > the Sanctuary and the curtain is not opened, even if a Deacon is head
                > celebrant.
                >
                > Only Bishops and Priests may administer Communion to the faithful. In the
                > Western Rite, Deacons may be given the blessing to administer Communion to
                > the sick, but I do not believe that this is the case in the Byzantine Rite.
                > Furthermore, please note that Readers may not touch the Holy Table, take
                > anything off of it, nor touch the Holy Vessels (i.e. Chalice, Diskos, Star,
                > Spoon, Spear). As such, it would be impossible for a Reader to even get near
                > the reserve Communion, stored in the Tabernacle, which sits on the Holy
                > Table!
                >
                > May the Lord, Our God, continue to guide you throughout your ministry as a
                > Reader!
                >
                > With love in Christ,
                > Reader Alexander
                > (Alex)
                >

                --
                Reader Michael J. Bishop
                12 E Read St
                Baltimore MD 21202-2459
                410-752-7270 voice
                410-752-7362 fax/modem

                Personal web site: http://www.Michael-Bishop.com and
                http://www.ReaderMichael.com

                E-mail for personal messages: Reader@... or
                Arch@...
                E-mail for lists: ReaderMichael@...

                Baltimore Orthodox web site: http://www.BaltimoreOrthodox.org
                Washington Orthodox web site: http://www.WashingtonOrthodox.org



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Reader Michael J. Bishop
                Like Reader Anthony, Most of my training was by doing until I went to the seminary. Because I cannot carry a tune even in a bucket, I was not in the choir and
                Message 7 of 24 , Jun 13, 2002
                  Like Reader Anthony,

                  Most of my training was by doing until I went to the seminary. Because I
                  cannot carry a tune even in a bucket, I was not in the choir and received no
                  singing lessons.
                  However, the ecclesiarks were extremely helpful and gave me a great deal of
                  guidance.

                  Also I belonged to a very good cathedral, St. Seraphim in Dallas, and there I
                  learned just by being at the services and following the services. I also
                  made tapes of many of the services and from these tapes I began to learn the
                  services. In Washington I sang in the choir until I became an altar server.
                  But most of my training was really OJT.

                  We did have a traiing program in Dallas, but it was not very rigid or
                  structured. If you wanted to be a reader, you came early and read at the
                  Hours. John or Patrick often would give you pointers. Fr. Basil also had a
                  class which I attended. This helped a little. But most of my training was
                  by doing.

                  At one point I volunteered to read one of the 15 readings on Holy Saturday
                  but Patrick seemed reluctant to allowing me to read. The priest, as he was
                  walking out the door, said, "Michael will read on Holy Saturday." John told
                  Patrick, "That is not a request. It is an order." Patrick assigned me the
                  Book of Jonah to read. It did not bother me at all.

                  When I was in Washington, I asked Metropolitan THEODOSIUS what was his
                  requirement to become a reader. He pulled up a strain of my hair and said,
                  "Your hair is long enough!" I was really taken back by this because I did
                  not expect anything like this. This was also before I got to know what a
                  sense of human he has. He tonsured me a reader on the feast of St. Ambrose,
                  7 December 1986. Then he immediately vested me as a subdeacon. This came as
                  a surprise to me on the day that I was tonsured.

                  Reader Michael

                  Antony Dyl wrote:

                  > --- "Glen M. Thurman" <gthurman@...> wrote:
                  > > All,
                  > >
                  > > Christ is Risen!
                  > >
                  > > After returning from Colorado (and visiting some of
                  > > the list members
                  > > there!), I see that there hasn't been much activity
                  > > here and thought I'd
                  > > start another thread.
                  > >
                  > > Reflecting on the process I went through to become a
                  > > subdeacon (including
                  > > the few minutes of between being tonsured a reader
                  > > and being ordained a
                  > > subdeacon), my experience is that there was no
                  > > formal process to train me. I
                  > > was wondering what others' experience has been in
                  > > preparing to become
                  > > readers.
                  > >
                  > > In Christ,
                  > > Subdeacon Tikhon
                  >
                  > Dear Subdeacon Tikhon,
                  >
                  > It was good to meet you out in Colorado. I never
                  > underwent any formal training process - back in 1989
                  > when I converted I was in a very small mission (only
                  > about 17 people) and I couldn't sing to save my life.
                  > So to help out I started reading during the all night
                  > vigils. some of the other "readers" gave me some
                  > pointers. in 1990, when I had moved to a somewhat
                  > larger parish and the priest wanted me tonsured a
                  > reader, I got some instruction from the choir
                  > director, but that was mostly about how to do this or
                  > that service. Mostly, it was learning by doing, and
                  > by watching and listening to others do it.
                  >
                  > Reader Antony
                  >
                  > __________________________________________________
                  > Do You Yahoo!?
                  > Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
                  > http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
                  >
                  >
                  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > orthodox-readers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  > To learn more about reader services, see:
                  > http://pages.prodigy.net/frjohnwhiteford/horologion.htm
                  >
                  > To access this lists archives, go to:
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
                  >
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

                  --
                  Reader Michael J. Bishop
                  12 E Read St
                  Baltimore MD 21202-2459
                  410-752-7270 voice
                  410-752-7362 fax/modem

                  Personal web site: http://www.Michael-Bishop.com and
                  http://www.ReaderMichael.com

                  E-mail for personal messages: Reader@... or
                  Arch@...
                  E-mail for lists: ReaderMichael@...

                  Baltimore Orthodox web site: http://www.BaltimoreOrthodox.org
                  Washington Orthodox web site: http://www.WashingtonOrthodox.org
                • Timothy Copple
                  ... From: reader_john To: Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2002 5:12 AM Subject: [orthodox-readers] Re: How
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jun 13, 2002
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "reader_john" <jmanutes@...>
                    To: <orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2002 5:12 AM
                    Subject: [orthodox-readers] Re: How were you trained?


                    > Alex,
                    >
                    > Thank you for your message.
                    >
                    > A Deacon recently served a Typicon service on a Sunday in which our
                    > priest was absent. The Holy Gifts were pre-sanctified and the Deacon
                    > administered them to the faithful. With this in mind I asked if a
                    > Reader can also administer Holy Communion which has been pre-
                    > sanctified? Is it your opinion that only a priest can give Communion?

                    Rdr. John, greetings.

                    I assume you are in the Antiochian Archdiocese as I am? If what I have
                    picked up is correct, it is the only one that does what is called a Typikon
                    where a pre-sanctified host is served. Of course, the deacon cannot
                    consecrate it, but a priest has to do this. I'm not sure if any other
                    jurisdictions do this, but it is been blessed for deacons to do this in the
                    AA by the Metropolitan. You can find the service described at:

                    http://www.networks-now.net/litresswraoc/SVCTypika_No_Priest.htm

                    This is a link to the Southwest's Region's liturgics page.

                    We have had a deacon do this once at our church, and a mission started by
                    our own mother church in another area regularly is served by a deacon at a
                    Typica. However, I don't think any jurisdiction would allow a reader to
                    serve the Eucharist. Just priest and deacons.

                    I have in our books at church a whole outline for a reader's vespers,
                    orthros and typica service. We have done this several times, most recently a
                    couple of Sundays ago, and will most likely be doing it again in two Sundays
                    as the priest will be out for the Parish Life conference.


                    Rdr. Timothy Copple
                  • wilibrad@aol.com
                    In a message dated 6/14/02 2:29:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Timothy@rlcdata.com writes:
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jun 14, 2002
                      In a message dated 6/14/02 2:29:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
                      Timothy@... writes:

                      << it is the only one that does what is called a Typikon
                      where a pre-sanctified host is served. >>
                      Before my entry into the Church Abroad and my subsequent tonsure, I attended
                      a small mission of the American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese. The priest
                      from a parish about 2 hours away would pre-sanctify there, and the deacon
                      would serve this Typica for us and commune us, with the blessing of +Met.
                      Nicholas of Amissos, their hierarch.
                      Reader Stephen
                    • reader_john
                      Reader Timothy, Glory to Jesus Christ! ... have ... Typikon ... No, our parish is OCA but yes, the Deacon was of the Antiochian Archdiocese. It is curious
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jun 14, 2002
                        Reader Timothy,

                        Glory to Jesus Christ!

                        > I assume you are in the Antiochian Archdiocese as I am? If what I
                        have
                        > picked up is correct, it is the only one that does what is called a
                        Typikon
                        > where a pre-sanctified host is served.

                        No, our parish is OCA but yes, the Deacon was of the Antiochian
                        Archdiocese. It is curious isn't it that it should make a difference.

                        This is related somewhat to a hope that I have. I personally pray
                        that one day very, very soon, we can just be an Orthodox Church in
                        America with our own Patriarch and one set of hierarchy. Metropolitan
                        Philip of the AA is on the right road I think, as is the concept of
                        the OCA. Forgive me if this is the wrong forum for this topic, but I
                        would be interested in listening to what others around the country
                        think of one unified Orthodox Church in this country.

                        John
                      • larry most
                        GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST, HELLO, I AM NEW TO THIS GROUP, BUT I HAVE A QUESTION THAT I HAVEN T SEEN DISCUSSED. WE HAVE A WONDERFUL PARISH HERE IN THE KEWEENAW
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jun 14, 2002
                          GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST,
                          HELLO, I AM NEW TO THIS GROUP, BUT I HAVE A QUESTION THAT I HAVEN'T SEEN DISCUSSED. WE HAVE A WONDERFUL PARISH HERE IN THE KEWEENAW PENNINSULA. AND WE HAVE A VISITING PRIEST,ABOUT ONCE A MONTH. WE WILL NOT HAVE A PRIEST FOR PENTECOST. AND I WAS WONDERING IF THERE IS A WAY TO READ THE KNEELING PRAYERS AFTER THE READER SERVICE. I ASKED OUR VISITING PRIEST ABOUT THIS AND HE SAID NO, BUT I WAS WONDERING IF THIS QUESTION HAS EVER COME UP. I WOULD APPRECIAT ANY FEEDBACK FROM ANYONE.
                          THANKS AND GOD BLESS
                          L.MOST
                          Anthony Jacobs <ajj@...> wrote: Dear Reader John,

                          Greetings on the Feast of our Lord's Ascension!

                          Here's an excerpt from a letter of Bishop Tikhon (OCA) to the flock, from 1988:

                          http://www.holy-trinity.org/liturgics/tikhon.lit1.html

                          VIII. [The Duties of those in Minor Orders]

                          Tonsured Readers and Ordained Subdeacons, when serving or reading, should wear the vestments appropriate to their function. The garment of a Reader is the Sticharion; that of the Subdeacon is the Sticharion and Orarion worn crossed about the torso . The cassock (podriassnik, anderi, or undercassock) is not the garment or sign of a Reader or Subdeacon, but is a garment which is appropriately worn under the sticharion.

                          Tonsured Readers may make ready the vestments in the Altar for the Sacred Servers and Church Servers before a service. They may prepare the censer, and carry lights, or fans, during processions and entrances, hold the holy water vessel and brush, hold the vessel with blessed oil or the dish with the blessed bread at Vigil, and they may cut up and otherwise prepare that blessed bread. They may themselves light the lights and lamps when prescribed by the ritual. They may prepare the vessels which contain w ine and water and fill them before the Divine Liturgy, and they may operate the altar curtain according to the prescribe ritual. They may prepare the warm water and bear it to the Deacon or Priest during the Divine Liturgy. They may bear the episcopal st aff, ascend the ambo to sing the trio at the Trisagion of the Divine Liturgy, bear and page the Bishop's Service Book, may secure the train of the Bishop's mantle, and may distribute the hierarchical Eagle-rugs. These privileges are all in addition to the ir assigned responsibility of reading in Church (not only in Church but from the Ambo, or on the raised "Vesting Place").

                          Ordained Subdeacons may do all those things permitted to Readers. In addition, they may touch the Holy Altar Table, when there is a necessity or direction to do so. For example, a Subdeacon may remove the large cloth which covers the Holy Table and everything on it between services. He may prepare the Table of Oblation for Divine Liturgy. A Subdeacon may remove the Dikirion and/or Trikirion from the Holy Table, if these have been placed there (i.e., when there is no special stand for them behind the Holy Table). Subdeacons may open the Holy Doors, as at the beginning of the Divine Liturgy, when a hierarch is serving. Subdeacons vest a hierarch in his holy vestments when there are not enough deacons to do so.

                          Untonsured Readers, both men and women, are a regular part of our Church life, and will continue to be so. Where there are many Readers, then they should read according to a (fair) schedule made up by the Senior Priest of the Cathedral or the person he appoints to do so. There is certainly no reason to exclude women from reading when I am serving, especially since some of the finest reading I have ever heard has been by women; for example, Mrs. Olga Raevsky-Hughes, Matushka Emilie Lisenko, Matushka Ma rgaret Gisetti, and others. Few men read this well -- soberly, correctly, distinctly, according to the established patterns, devoutly, not self-consciously, and in tune.

                          also, on the issue of training for readers:

                          Summer School of Liturgical Music: This will be held at Holy Trinity Seminary (ROCOR), Jordanville, New York from 30 June through 13 July, 2002. This conference was established with the blessing of Metropolitan Laurus. The full course of study consists of three summer sessions, at the end of which the graduates will be certified as church choir directors and/or readers. Academic credit is available. A non-certification track is offered to those seeking enrichment in the area of Russian Orthodox Music, but do not intend to become church readers or choir directors. The course load, full or partial, may be agreed upon in consultation with the school administration. The course offerings are: 1.) History of Russian Church Music, 2.) Music Theory and Musicianship, 3.) Choir Conducting Techniques and Practicum, 4.) Voice Class, 5.) Liturgical Performance Practice, 6.) Church Slavonic, 7.) Liturgics for Choir Directors. For more information please contact:

                          Fr Andre Papkov
                          54 Fourth Street, Ilion, NY 13357;
                          tel 315 / 894-6274
                          email: musicschool@....

                          Anthony


                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: reader_john [mailto:jmanutes@...]
                          Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 8:03 PM
                          To: orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [orthodox-readers] Re: How were you trained?


                          Christ Is In Our Midst!

                          <snip>

                          I look forward to learning more about the minor order of Reader and
                          what he can do liturgically. This website has helped in that regard.
                          One surprising example, if I understand correctly, is that a
                          Typicon service can be served by a Reader. I assume that if this is
                          correct, a Reader can administer the Host as well. Please correct me
                          if I am wrong.

                          It would be beneficial if there were a more formal method of training
                          for Readers. This could be done via the internet, or a weekend
                          seminar, or one on one with the parish priest. I think there is a
                          need for it.

                          Love In Christ,
                          John

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                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Timothy Copple
                          ... From: reader_john To: Sent: Friday, June 14, 2002 9:09 PM Subject: [orthodox-readers] Re: How
                          Message 12 of 24 , Jun 14, 2002
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "reader_john" <jmanutes@...>
                            To: <orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Friday, June 14, 2002 9:09 PM
                            Subject: [orthodox-readers] Re: How were you trained?


                            > Reader Timothy,
                            >
                            > Glory to Jesus Christ!
                            >
                            > > I assume you are in the Antiochian Archdiocese as I am? If what I
                            > have
                            > > picked up is correct, it is the only one that does what is called a
                            > Typikon
                            > > where a pre-sanctified host is served.
                            >
                            > No, our parish is OCA but yes, the Deacon was of the Antiochian
                            > Archdiocese. It is curious isn't it that it should make a difference.

                            Obviously there are other archdiocese that do this as needed and with the
                            bishop's blessing.

                            >
                            > This is related somewhat to a hope that I have. I personally pray
                            > that one day very, very soon, we can just be an Orthodox Church in
                            > America with our own Patriarch and one set of hierarchy. Metropolitan
                            > Philip of the AA is on the right road I think, as is the concept of
                            > the OCA. Forgive me if this is the wrong forum for this topic, but I
                            > would be interested in listening to what others around the country
                            > think of one unified Orthodox Church in this country.

                            Well, probably not the right place to have an extensive discussion on it,
                            but I think most realize that the situation in the US is not correct
                            according to the cannons and will eventually be rectified, we all pray, who
                            knows, even in our lifetimes if God wills. How God brings this all about,
                            however, I can't say.

                            What might be appropriate for this forum, however, is in what manner such a
                            future union would have on the many and varied translations that we have of
                            text. I would assume in a normal one bishop/one city context, that there
                            would only be one, maybe two translations of liturgical text which is used.
                            Here we have all sorts sometimes, some better than others.

                            I suppose one of the task for potential union in the future would be to sort
                            through those and make a decision on what to use. Or, would we just keep usi
                            ng various translations? Maybe during a period of transition there wouldn't
                            be a big push for that, but at some point in the future there would?

                            Would we have a mixture of chant continue, or would it officially be either
                            Russian or Byzantine, and how would one go about deciding that without
                            alienating many? There are probably other ramifications, like the recent one
                            about reader's using a stickera, where it seems as best I can tell those in
                            our archdiocese don't. Lots of little details that would either stay as they
                            are, do so temporarily and eventually get unified, or would be changed
                            wholesale. I would rather suspect the later would not happen.


                            Rdr. Timothy Copple
                          • Glen Thurman
                            ... Well, it goes without saying that all clergy would be required to use the Antiochian *Liturgikon*, (translation by my very own Bishop BASIL) doesn t it?
                            Message 13 of 24 , Jun 15, 2002
                              Reader Timothy wrote:

                              > I suppose one of the task for potential union in the future would be to sort
                              > through those and make a decision on what to use. Or, would we just keep usi
                              > ng various translations? Maybe during a period of transition there wouldn't
                              > be a big push for that, but at some point in the future there would?

                              Well, it goes without saying that all clergy would be required to use the
                              Antiochian *Liturgikon*, (translation by my very own Bishop BASIL) doesn't
                              it? ;-)

                              Seriously, it is somewhat dizzying to think of all of the different sources
                              of translations we use in our parish for services. Even though it is an
                              Antiochian parish, we use many different texts from all over the map
                              jurisdiction-wise. (I think our *Apostolos* is even done by a Byzantine
                              Catholic publisher.)

                              That being said, aren't there still certain "standards" that are fairly
                              commonly used in parishes, regardless of jurisdiction? (Things like Nassar,
                              Bp KALLISTOS' *Festal Menaion* and *Lenten Triodion*, the Holy
                              Transfiguration *Psalter*, etc., etc.?

                              I guess I'm saying I see standards for liturgical texts is an issue for
                              union, but I do see a lot of common ground already.

                              --Subdeacon Tikhon
                            • Timothy Copple
                              ... From: Glen Thurman To: Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2002 11:50 AM Subject: [orthodox-readers] Union and
                              Message 14 of 24 , Jun 15, 2002
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: "Glen Thurman" <gthurman@...>
                                To: <orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2002 11:50 AM
                                Subject: [orthodox-readers] Union and translations


                                > Reader Timothy wrote:
                                >
                                > > I suppose one of the task for potential union in the future would be to
                                sort
                                > > through those and make a decision on what to use. Or, would we just keep
                                usi
                                > > ng various translations? Maybe during a period of transition there
                                wouldn't
                                > > be a big push for that, but at some point in the future there would?
                                >
                                > Well, it goes without saying that all clergy would be required to use the
                                > Antiochian *Liturgikon*, (translation by my very own Bishop BASIL) doesn't
                                > it? ;-)

                                I see we have the same bishop. :-)

                                >
                                > Seriously, it is somewhat dizzying to think of all of the different
                                sources
                                > of translations we use in our parish for services. Even though it is an
                                > Antiochian parish, we use many different texts from all over the map
                                > jurisdiction-wise. (I think our *Apostolos* is even done by a Byzantine
                                > Catholic publisher.)
                                >

                                Yes, some from Russian sources, some from Byzantine, and more than one
                                selection in some cases.

                                > That being said, aren't there still certain "standards" that are fairly
                                > commonly used in parishes, regardless of jurisdiction? (Things like
                                Nassar,
                                > Bp KALLISTOS' *Festal Menaion* and *Lenten Triodion*, the Holy
                                > Transfiguration *Psalter*, etc., etc.?

                                I would say yes. However, we mostly use Nassar for reference purposes.
                                However, most of the text in the Byzantine Music Project came from Nassar,
                                so we use it in that regard since we use that music a good bit. However,
                                sometimes the wording requires updating to make it sensible for folks who
                                hear it. However, if the text is in the Festal Menaion or Lenten Triodian,
                                we generally pull it from there. We also use frequently text from the Great
                                Horologian put out by Holy Transfiguration, as well as some paraklite
                                (probably mis-spelled, the standard weekly text) from Holy Myrrh Bearers.
                                Our menion we use is from St. John of Kronstat, though I understand that
                                Holy Transfiguration is working on a Byzantine based one, which will be
                                nice.

                                Also, if needed, we have (or at least, I have) everything on my hard drive,
                                Hapgood and Holy Transfiguration's Pentecostarian. Then I know each
                                archdiocese has its own standard set of these text, especially for the text
                                as one would find in Nassar. When I visit the local Greek church and help
                                chant there, they use stuff totally different. I don't even think they do
                                use things like the Lenten Triodian. I think they have their own stuff.

                                Then, one would have the big issue of whether to use "thee and thou" as
                                opposed to "you", and there are those among those who prefer "thou" who only
                                want a partial Elizabethan English, and those who want to go all the way
                                with it even to using words which were common in that era but not now. So
                                the debate could be interesting and who knows what the final outcome of it
                                all would be. Hopefully we would end up with text which fits the music,
                                makes sense and is clear, and conveys a sense of worship and respect.

                                >
                                > I guess I'm saying I see standards for liturgical texts is an issue for
                                > union, but I do see a lot of common ground already.

                                I'm sure it would take some work. My guess is, that if a union were to
                                happen, each group would still hold its normal usage liturgically. Then,
                                once the union had solidified and all worked well in that area, the issues
                                of standardizing translations could be dealt with. However, as to styles of
                                music, I would suggest the best thing there is to let each church with their
                                bishop's guidance and approval, use that style that works for them. Then,
                                over time, naturally, I'm sure an American style of chant (which would
                                probably be combinations of the two) would evolve. Probably not in my
                                lifetime, but eventually it would. Any attempt to forcibly convert everyone
                                over to one style of the other would be doomed to failure in my opinion, and
                                if attempted as part of a proposed union, would make the union harder to
                                achieve.

                                Yet, yes, there are text that I think many people use in common. I think it
                                is more the standard daily and Sunday text especially that everyone has
                                their own version of. IOW, someone in the OCA probably doesn't use Nassar as
                                a matter of course, though they may have a copy of it on hand for reference
                                or alternate text. Rather, they have their own translations, the Greeks have
                                theirs, ROCOR has theirs and on down the line. I suppose some of the smaller
                                jurisdictions may use one of the other jurisdiction's material. However,
                                since I'm not in these other jurisdictions, they may have a different view
                                of this and could provide more broader input. This is just what I've seen up
                                to this point.


                                Rdr. Timothy Copple
                              • larry most
                                GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST, HELLO, I M RATHER NEW AT THIS GROUP, AND MAYBE I MISSED SOMETHING, BUT THE MINUTE SOMEONE TALKS OF A UNIFIED ORTHODOX CHURCH, SOMEBODY
                                Message 15 of 24 , Jun 15, 2002
                                  GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST,
                                  HELLO,
                                  I'M RATHER NEW AT THIS GROUP, AND MAYBE I MISSED SOMETHING, BUT THE MINUTE SOMEONE TALKS OF A UNIFIED ORTHODOX CHURCH, SOMEBODY BRINGS UP TRANSLATIONS, tRADITIONS (WITH A SMALL "t") ETC. I'M WONDERING WHY WE WOULD HAVE TO BE UNIFORM. IT HAS VERY LITTLE TO DO WITH BELIEFS ETC. EVERY ORTHODOX CHURCH IS NEARLY THE SAME YET WITH SOME DIFFERENCES (SIZE AND SHAPE OF BUILDING, CHOIR OR CANTOR ETC. IT WOULD SEEM THAT WE COULD KEEP OUR UNIQUE tRADITIONS AND STILL BE AN AMERICAN ORTHODOX CHURCH.
                                  NOT A CRITICISM, JUST A LITTLE FOOD FOR THOUGHT.
                                  WITH LOVE IN CHRIS,
                                  SUB-DEACON
                                  LAWRENCE MOST
                                  Timothy Copple <Timothy@...> wrote:
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: "Glen Thurman" <gthurman@...>
                                  To: <orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2002 11:50 AM
                                  Subject: [orthodox-readers] Union and translations


                                  > Reader Timothy wrote:
                                  >
                                  > > I suppose one of the task for potential union in the future would be to
                                  sort
                                  > > through those and make a decision on what to use. Or, would we just keep
                                  usi
                                  > > ng various translations? Maybe during a period of transition there
                                  wouldn't
                                  > > be a big push for that, but at some point in the future there would?
                                  >
                                  > Well, it goes without saying that all clergy would be required to use the
                                  > Antiochian *Liturgikon*, (translation by my very own Bishop BASIL) doesn't
                                  > it? ;-)

                                  I see we have the same bishop. :-)

                                  >
                                  > Seriously, it is somewhat dizzying to think of all of the different
                                  sources
                                  > of translations we use in our parish for services. Even though it is an
                                  > Antiochian parish, we use many different texts from all over the map
                                  > jurisdiction-wise. (I think our *Apostolos* is even done by a Byzantine
                                  > Catholic publisher.)
                                  >

                                  Yes, some from Russian sources, some from Byzantine, and more than one
                                  selection in some cases.

                                  > That being said, aren't there still certain "standards" that are fairly
                                  > commonly used in parishes, regardless of jurisdiction? (Things like
                                  Nassar,
                                  > Bp KALLISTOS' *Festal Menaion* and *Lenten Triodion*, the Holy
                                  > Transfiguration *Psalter*, etc., etc.?

                                  I would say yes. However, we mostly use Nassar for reference purposes.
                                  However, most of the text in the Byzantine Music Project came from Nassar,
                                  so we use it in that regard since we use that music a good bit. However,
                                  sometimes the wording requires updating to make it sensible for folks who
                                  hear it. However, if the text is in the Festal Menaion or Lenten Triodian,
                                  we generally pull it from there. We also use frequently text from the Great
                                  Horologian put out by Holy Transfiguration, as well as some paraklite
                                  (probably mis-spelled, the standard weekly text) from Holy Myrrh Bearers.
                                  Our menion we use is from St. John of Kronstat, though I understand that
                                  Holy Transfiguration is working on a Byzantine based one, which will be
                                  nice.

                                  Also, if needed, we have (or at least, I have) everything on my hard drive,
                                  Hapgood and Holy Transfiguration's Pentecostarian. Then I know each
                                  archdiocese has its own standard set of these text, especially for the text
                                  as one would find in Nassar. When I visit the local Greek church and help
                                  chant there, they use stuff totally different. I don't even think they do
                                  use things like the Lenten Triodian. I think they have their own stuff.

                                  Then, one would have the big issue of whether to use "thee and thou" as
                                  opposed to "you", and there are those among those who prefer "thou" who only
                                  want a partial Elizabethan English, and those who want to go all the way
                                  with it even to using words which were common in that era but not now. So
                                  the debate could be interesting and who knows what the final outcome of it
                                  all would be. Hopefully we would end up with text which fits the music,
                                  makes sense and is clear, and conveys a sense of worship and respect.

                                  >
                                  > I guess I'm saying I see standards for liturgical texts is an issue for
                                  > union, but I do see a lot of common ground already.

                                  I'm sure it would take some work. My guess is, that if a union were to
                                  happen, each group would still hold its normal usage liturgically. Then,
                                  once the union had solidified and all worked well in that area, the issues
                                  of standardizing translations could be dealt with. However, as to styles of
                                  music, I would suggest the best thing there is to let each church with their
                                  bishop's guidance and approval, use that style that works for them. Then,
                                  over time, naturally, I'm sure an American style of chant (which would
                                  probably be combinations of the two) would evolve. Probably not in my
                                  lifetime, but eventually it would. Any attempt to forcibly convert everyone
                                  over to one style of the other would be doomed to failure in my opinion, and
                                  if attempted as part of a proposed union, would make the union harder to
                                  achieve.

                                  Yet, yes, there are text that I think many people use in common. I think it
                                  is more the standard daily and Sunday text especially that everyone has
                                  their own version of. IOW, someone in the OCA probably doesn't use Nassar as
                                  a matter of course, though they may have a copy of it on hand for reference
                                  or alternate text. Rather, they have their own translations, the Greeks have
                                  theirs, ROCOR has theirs and on down the line. I suppose some of the smaller
                                  jurisdictions may use one of the other jurisdiction's material. However,
                                  since I'm not in these other jurisdictions, they may have a different view
                                  of this and could provide more broader input. This is just what I've seen up
                                  to this point.


                                  Rdr. Timothy Copple



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                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Timothy Copple
                                  ... From: larry most To: Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2002 7:47 PM Subject: Re: [orthodox-readers]
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Jun 17, 2002
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: "larry most" <larrymost2002@...>
                                    To: <orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2002 7:47 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [orthodox-readers] Union and translations


                                    >
                                    > GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST,
                                    > HELLO,
                                    > I'M RATHER NEW AT THIS GROUP, AND MAYBE I MISSED SOMETHING, BUT THE MINUTE
                                    SOMEONE TALKS OF A UNIFIED ORTHODOX CHURCH, SOMEBODY BRINGS UP TRANSLATIONS,


                                    Hi Sub-deacon Lawrence,

                                    I understand your point, and agree that there is no need for everyone to
                                    look like clones of each other. On the issues of translations, I think that
                                    would be an eventual goal a unified church would strive for. Right now, if I
                                    moved and ended up going to a Greek Church, I would have to relearn a lot of
                                    things simply because they use totally different translations of text than
                                    we do where I'm at. Different Lord's Prayer even which people in the
                                    congregation have. I see this when new people come to our church, they feel
                                    out of place for a period of time.

                                    It would be the same thing if each church in our jurisdiction did what they
                                    wanted in this regard. There is some differences on this from church to
                                    church, but by and large I would suspect that most Antiochian Churches use
                                    the same translation of text and melodies. That would simply be expected,
                                    and I think in time it would be expected that a unified Orthodox Church
                                    would adopt a specific translation. I'm not saying it would happen soon, but
                                    eventually it would. It would simply make things simpler for learning and
                                    portability from church to church. However, for some time to come, I would
                                    expect that we will be dealing with various translations of text even if we
                                    do become unified in the near future.

                                    > tRADITIONS (WITH A SMALL "t") ETC. I'M WONDERING WHY WE WOULD HAVE TO BE
                                    UNIFORM. IT HAS VERY LITTLE TO DO WITH BELIEFS ETC.

                                    The only thing in this category I can think that I mentioned was music
                                    style, and as I pointed out I don't think it would be good for that to be
                                    forcibly changed one way or the other, but a natural evolution (if I can use
                                    that word) of chant that would probably end up being somewhat different from
                                    either, but with roots in both forms. Or it may just end up being an
                                    interesting mix of the two. Who knows. But on this point, I certainly wasn't
                                    indicating a need for uniformity or an expectation that it be so, or
                                    intending to discuss beliefs as such being linked with these. Only that a
                                    move to having one church will, over time, develop some distinctly American
                                    holy customs that will evolve from what we have now, but I doubt any one
                                    church or "previous" jurisdictional group would look or sound exactly like
                                    all the others.

                                    Also, while I agree the presence of a specific holy custom or lack of it may
                                    not directly indicate a presence or lack of a belief, it must also be kept
                                    in mind that many of the holy customs we have are rooted in our beliefs and
                                    tied to them, and for those to who they hold meaning in their spiritual
                                    walk, uprooting such things does constitute for them an uprooting of the
                                    belief itself in which they are grounded. That is why I think these things
                                    must evolve because to uproot a holy custom simply because it itself is not
                                    a belief will be felt and seen as an uprooting of the belief it is attached
                                    to by those who hold to that custom, and the forcing of foreign customs on
                                    others who have not used them will tend to mean little to them, at least
                                    immediately (as in a generation or two). These things have grown in a
                                    specific "soil" and so it is too violent a process to uproot them and plant
                                    something else instead, which might not even be growable in that "soil" and
                                    "climate".

                                    For that reason, I do think it would not be a good thing to simply force a
                                    uniformity of holy customs in music and other areas in such a unified
                                    jurisdiction. Plus, as you say, simply because one uses Russian and another
                                    uses Byzantine chant does not mean the belief is different. However, I would
                                    find it difficult to image that if there was jurisdictional unity, that
                                    there would also not be (maybe a couple hundred years down the road) much
                                    more unity on things like music and other holy customs as distinctly
                                    American.

                                    [snip]

                                    > NOT A CRITICISM, JUST A LITTLE FOOD FOR THOUGHT.

                                    Thanks. Good points to keep in mind I think. Also, not a criticism, but it
                                    would help make your message easier to read to take the caps lock off. Many
                                    years.


                                    Rdr. Timothy Copple
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