Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: No activity

Expand Messages
  • Joseph
    Dear Father Deacon Michael, I was tonsured a reader and immediately ordained a subdeacon afterwards in the ACROD. Afterwards I was accepted into ROCOR. I am
    Message 1 of 30 , Nov 5, 2007
    • 0 Attachment
      Dear Father Deacon Michael,
      I was tonsured a reader and immediately ordained a subdeacon
      afterwards in the ACROD. Afterwards I was accepted into ROCOR. I am
      also in the Navy so, unfortunately, have not been able to serve in
      one church regularly due to traveling and such. Since ordained, I
      have mostly been an Orthodox layleader and had reader services on the
      ships I have been on. Every chance I get, I try and visit (or
      attend) any Orthodox Church I am near, and to be honest, most
      churches (or priests) that I have had contact with, don't know what
      to do with a subdeacon. Nor what capacity they may fill. I have
      noted also, depending on the jurisdiction, some subdeacons are
      ordained, while some are blessed by the bishop. Some are teenagers.
      I have had some ask me if I can touch the Alter, others wanting me to
      cense. I declined on both. In ACROD they refer to the subdeacon
      and "Father Subdeacon" and in others "subdeacon". I'm sure that you
      have had similar run-ins. I must say that I feel that I do get much
      more respect and dignity than I deserve. My only wish is that
      Orthodoxy as a whole would use / standardize the lower clergy much
      more than I personally have seen. Just my take on things.

      in Christ,
      sdcn joseph

      BTW, I love your web site!!!





      --- In orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com, "Deacon Michael Bishop"
      <Photo@...> wrote:
      >
      > Apparently there has been no activity on this list. What a shame!
      >
      > Although I am now a Deacon, I am still very interested in the role
      of
      > the Reader and of the Subdeacon and I strongly believe that these
      > orders should be given much more respect and dignity than they
      receive.
      >
      > One day I hope to revisit my thesis for my MDiv degree and add much
      > more information. Currently I am reading "The Great Entrance" by
      Fr.
      > Robert Taft, but so far I have not seen any refences to Readers or
      > Subdeacons.
      >
      > If anybody has any information which he thinks might interest me,
      > please feel free to e-mail it to me at Deacon@... .
      >
      > Thank you.
      >
      > Deacon Michael
      >
    • Alexander Vallens
      True, in the ancient church there were orders for door keeper, bell ringer, cantor, etc. However, these orders have since fallen out of practice in the Church
      Message 2 of 30 , Nov 5, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        True, in the ancient church there were orders for door keeper, bell
        ringer, cantor, etc. However, these orders have since fallen out of
        practice in the Church in favor of only two minor orders, the Reader
        (Cantor)/Taper Bearer & Subdeacon. One who believes that the Orthodox
        Church is THE Church, THE Body of Christ, a continuous (that is,
        unbroken) succession from the Apostles and the Christ Himself, will
        recognize that the Holy Spirit has, and continues, to work in the
        Church at all times, and leads Her in a particular direction for
        particular reasons (most of which elude us feeble man!).

        That being said, it is inappropriate to label arbitrary the fact that
        only Reader and Subdeacon survive as minor orders in the Church. If we
        believe that Church Tradition is the inspired work of the Holy Spirit,
        how can we apply such a label? Instead of attempting to lessen
        Tradition, perhaps we should instead attempt to understand why the
        Holy Spirit may be leading the Church in this particular direction.
        Isn't this the nature of spiritual growth?

        I agree, that in today's world the distinction between the ministry of
        Readers, Subdeacons, Choir Directors, Psaltis, Ushers, etc. is
        minimal, since there is great crossover in assumed responsibility.
        However, that doesn't mean any Holy Orders are validly subjugated to
        'being the same thing' since they 'do the same thing.' I'm not trying
        to belittle the great work so many of our "lay leaders" do in the
        Church, rather I'm trying to stress the importance We, as the sheep
        that follow the Shepherd, must continue to respect the fact that the
        Church in Her wisdom retains the two minor orders as is. If Holy
        Tradition changes in time, so be it, but until them we must recognize,
        and honor, what is, and right now that means two minor orders. Those
        tonsured/ordained to the minor orders have a great responsibility to
        honor and fulfill their awesome responsibility, and perhaps laziness
        and laxity in those orders is precisely what has created our present
        lack of appreciation for the sanctity of those orders.

        With love in Christ,
        Dn. Alexander


        On Nov 5, 2007 9:47 AM, John M. Black <johnmblack@...> wrote:
        >
        > I think you would do better with a more holistic view of the "minor orders"
        > in general. The present-day distincions between Reader, Choir Director,
        > Psaltis, etc. are somewhat arbitrary and the result of diverging cultural
        > practice. All these, when viewed together, are more similar than we think.
        > In earlier times, even the singers (not just the leader of the singers) were
        > "set apart".
        >
        > -Rdr John
      • Rd. Andreas MacLean
        Congratulations on your ordination to the diaconate, Fr. Michael! Isn t this Taft a Uniate? Why would you expect any references to minor orders in writings by
        Message 3 of 30 , Nov 5, 2007
        • 0 Attachment
          Congratulations on your ordination to the diaconate, Fr. Michael!

          Isn't this Taft a Uniate? Why would you expect any references to minor
          orders in writings by papists? As far as I know, the pope of Rome eliminated
          the minor clerical orders except for seminarians.

          I think it is a dangerous practice to read heretic authors for guidance and
          instruction on Holy Orthodoxy - by their very nature, they are grossly in
          error.

          In Christ,
          Reader Andreas



          On 11/5/07, Deacon Michael Bishop <Photo@...> wrote:
          >
          > Apparently there has been no activity on this list. What a shame!
          >
          > Although I am now a Deacon, I am still very interested in the role of
          > the Reader and of the Subdeacon and I strongly believe that these
          > orders should be given much more respect and dignity than they receive.
          >
          > One day I hope to revisit my thesis for my MDiv degree and add much
          > more information. Currently I am reading "The Great Entrance" by Fr.
          > Robert Taft, but so far I have not seen any refences to Readers or
          > Subdeacons.
          >
          > If anybody has any information which he thinks might interest me,
          > please feel free to e-mail it to me at Deacon@...<Deacon%40Michael-Bishop.com>.
          >
          > Thank you.
          >
          > Deacon Michael
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Deacon Michael Bishop
          Dear Reader Andreas, Thank you for your congratulations message. I truly apreciate it. Yes, Fr. Robert Taft is a Uniate and he knows more about Byzantine
          Message 4 of 30 , Nov 5, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            Dear Reader Andreas,

            Thank you for your congratulations message. I truly apreciate it.

            Yes, Fr. Robert Taft is a Uniate and he knows more about Byzantine
            Liturgy than most of us put together. There was no reference to minor
            orders in his book at this point because there was no need for such
            references. Several of his books were text books at the seminary and
            I've talked to other Orthodox priests and deacons and we all agree that
            he has much to offer us and we are grateful for his scholarship.

            Around Vatican II the minor orders were eliminated in the Roman Catholic
            Church. Now they have Acolyte, Lecture, Deacon, Priest, and Bishop.
            Apparently we eliminated the other orders long before they did. In some
            of our jurisdictions and/or dioceses the minor orders exist only in
            theory. In some places a person might be tonsured a Reader without a
            seminary background, but he is ordained a Subdeacon only hours [or
            minutes] before he is ordained a Deacon. In other places altar servers
            are tonsured altar servers, but what do that mean?

            When I am finished reading the book, my priest always wants to read it.
            I will also be reading other books by him. The book is written as a
            scholar would write a book, not as a Catholic with an agenda. If the
            pope is wrong, Fr. Robert has absolutely no problem saying so and he has
            been known to do so. I have read several of Fr. Robert's book and I
            have not seen any errors.

            I used to be Byzantine Rite Catholic and one of those attending my
            ordination was a Melkite Catholic priest whom I have known for
            centuries. I know some people who are Byzantine Rite Catholic mainly
            because of our arogrance and lack of love towards our fellow brothers.

            Deacon Michael



            Rd. Andreas MacLean wrote:

            >Congratulations on your ordination to the diaconate, Fr. Michael!
            >
            >Isn't this Taft a Uniate? Why would you expect any references to minor
            >orders in writings by papists? As far as I know, the pope of Rome eliminated
            >the minor clerical orders except for seminarians.
            >
            >I think it is a dangerous practice to read heretic authors for guidance and
            >instruction on Holy Orthodoxy - by their very nature, they are grossly in
            >error.
            >
            >In Christ,
            >Reader Andreas
            >
            >
            >
            >On 11/5/07, Deacon Michael Bishop <Photo@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            >> Apparently there has been no activity on this list. What a shame!
            >>
            >>Although I am now a Deacon, I am still very interested in the role of
            >>the Reader and of the Subdeacon and I strongly believe that these
            >>orders should be given much more respect and dignity than they receive.
            >>
            >>One day I hope to revisit my thesis for my MDiv degree and add much
            >>more information. Currently I am reading "The Great Entrance" by Fr.
            >>Robert Taft, but so far I have not seen any refences to Readers or
            >>Subdeacons.
            >>
            >>If anybody has any information which he thinks might interest me,
            >>please feel free to e-mail it to me at Deacon@...<Deacon%40Michael-Bishop.com>.
            >>
            >>Thank you.
            >>
            >>Deacon Michael
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >
            >
            >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            >To learn more about reader services, see:
            >http://pages.prodigy.net/frjohnwhiteford/horologion.htm
            >
            >To access this lists archives, go to:
            >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
            >ogion.htm
            >
            >To access this lists archives, go to:
            >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
            >
            >Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >

            --
            Deacon Michael Bishop
            570 Saint Mary St
            Baltimore MD 21201-1936
            410-225-7743

            http://www.Michael-Bishop.com

            See you at the Russian Festival
            1723 Fairmount Avenue * Baltimore MD 21231
            17-19 October 2008
          • John M. Black
            Totally agree with everything you re saying here. Perhaps I m just guilty of a poor choice of words. My main point was that we shouldn t limit our study to
            Message 5 of 30 , Nov 5, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
              Totally agree with everything you're saying here. Perhaps I'm just guilty
              of a poor choice of words.

              My main point was that we shouldn't limit our study to "reader" and ignore
              "cantor" or "psaltis". By "arbitrary" I refer to our own terminology and
              present-day distinctions in casual conversation, not to the Church's
              development of the orders themselves.

              -J


              On 11/5/07, Alexander Vallens <avallens@...> wrote:
              >
              > [...] it is inappropriate to label arbitrary the fact that
              > only Reader and Subdeacon survive as minor orders in the Church. If we
              > believe that Church Tradition is the inspired work of the Holy Spirit,
              > how can we apply such a label?
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Rd. Andreas MacLean
              Fr. Michael: The pictures on your website of your ordination and first Liturgy were ... I have never heard of a seminary education as a prerequisite for
              Message 6 of 30 , Nov 5, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                Fr. Michael:

                The pictures on your website of your ordination and first Liturgy were
                great. You wrote:



                > In some places a person might be tonsured a Reader without a
                > seminary background, but he is ordained a Subdeacon only hours [or
                > minutes] before he is ordained a Deacon. In other places altar servers
                > are tonsured altar servers, but what do that mean?
                >

                I have never heard of a seminary education as a prerequisite for tonsuring
                as a clergyman and subsequent ordination as reader - where is this the
                practice? You might be surprised to learn, but in Byzantine (the real ones,
                not Unia) practice, until recently in the diaspora, very few parish priests
                and, especially, very few hieromonks had degrees in Theology. Also, since
                you yourself were ordained a subdeacon right before your ordination as
                deacon, what does that mean? If the altar boys are prepared to live their
                lives as clergymen according to the Canons, why not ordain them as readers
                or set aside as taper-bearers? The Council of Carthage mentions readers
                reaching the age of puberty, so there is little fear of making taper-bearers
                or readers at too young of age.

                I used to be Byzantine Rite Catholic and one of those attending my
                > ordination was a Melkite Catholic priest whom I have known for
                > centuries. I know some people who are Byzantine Rite Catholic mainly
                > because of our arogrance and lack of love towards our fellow brothers.


                Thank God that you were converted to Holy Orthodoxy and can now serve as a
                deacon! The Orthodox way to look at your last sentence, though, is that they
                are Uniates because of their own arrogance, gracelessness, and lack of love
                for Christ's Holy Church. As long as this Uniate "priest" did not
                participate, there is really no problem with him attending your ordination
                (from the narthex I hope?).

                In Christ,
                Reader Andreas


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Alexander Vallens
                Reader John, Forgive me for ostensibly attacking you, which was not my intent. Rather, I am repeatedly frustrated with people wanting to ultimately reform
                Message 7 of 30 , Nov 5, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  Reader John,

                  Forgive me for ostensibly attacking you, which was not my intent.
                  Rather, I am repeatedly frustrated with people wanting to ultimately
                  reform (although they wouldn't admit to it outright) the Church and
                  Holy Tradition to match their world-view and ideas. Perhaps I
                  overreacted to your wording, and for that I ask your forgiveness.

                  Either way, I felt, and still feel, it important to reiterate the
                  importance of Holy Tradition and the work of the Holy Spirit in the
                  Church. Clerical orders, and the Liturgy, are not things we can just
                  change, or "restore to ancient usage," just because we think it's
                  appropriate for today's modern world or can find a good justification
                  for it in some historical text... I suspect you catch my drift. ;-)

                  With love in Christ,
                  Dn. Alexander


                  On Nov 5, 2007 12:07 PM, John M. Black <johnmblack@...> wrote:
                  > Totally agree with everything you're saying here. Perhaps I'm just guilty
                  > of a poor choice of words.
                  >
                  > My main point was that we shouldn't limit our study to "reader" and ignore
                  > "cantor" or "psaltis". By "arbitrary" I refer to our own terminology and
                  > present-day distinctions in casual conversation, not to the Church's
                  > development of the orders themselves.
                  >
                  > -J
                  >
                  >
                  > On 11/5/07, Alexander Vallens <avallens@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > [...] it is inappropriate to label arbitrary the fact that
                  > > only Reader and Subdeacon survive as minor orders in the Church. If we
                  > > believe that Church Tradition is the inspired work of the Holy Spirit,
                  > > how can we apply such a label?
                  > >
                • Deacon Michael Bishop
                  Dear Subdeacon Joseph, You just expressed my sentiment also. My problem was compounded by the fact that I was a Subdeacon but my title was Reader because I
                  Message 8 of 30 , Nov 5, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Dear Subdeacon Joseph,

                    You just expressed my sentiment also. My problem was compounded by the
                    fact that I was a Subdeacon but my title was Reader because I was not
                    ordained a Subdeacon. I was tonsured a Reader and immediately vested as
                    a Subdeacon with the rights of a Subdeacon.

                    I have always been in a parish environment since being tonsured,
                    although once a month I had military duty. But then I still could
                    attend Vespers/Vigil on Saturday evening.

                    I definitely noticed that most priests did not know what to do with me.
                    Now that problem is history for me, but it is something that I still
                    want to resolve. I saw one Subdeacon touching the side altar at a
                    cathedral and the Protodeacon jumped all over him. I don't think that
                    he realized that it was a side altar. This was on Bright Saturday. I
                    was walking through the Royal Doors until somebody came up to me and
                    said don't do it again. I really did not know if I should or should not
                    but when I saw somebody else do it, I did.

                    As a Subdeacon I did whatever was the local custom. On several
                    occasions when serving with the Bishop, I cross in front of the Holy
                    Table and on one occasion I actually went through the Royal Doors. My
                    last hiearchial Divine Liturgy before my ordination I carried the
                    trikiri and did both at the instructions of the Bishop. This was
                    Antiochian practice.

                    I would love to see a standard for the minor orders. I would love to
                    see some requirements for them and some standard pratice. I was a
                    Reader for six months before I had a cassock. It was only in time that
                    I learned that I am supposed to have one. My priest gave me his old
                    cassock that he wore in the seminary. It was the Roman Catholic style
                    [at the time they cost $30 and an Orthodox cassock was $150]. I would
                    tell people that "this was Fr. Constantine's cassock when he was at
                    Immaculate Conception Orthodox Seminary." Very few people believed me,
                    thank God.

                    When are Readers supposed to wear a cassock? How about Subdeacons? My
                    former pastor told me to wear mine any time that I am at a church
                    function, including the Greek Festival. I did. The first time my meal
                    and my driver's meal were free. I wore my cassock during conferences
                    and no Bishop ever said a word to me. Earlier this year months before
                    the date of my ordination was announced, I was at the Parish Life
                    Conference and taking a picture of a meeting and Bishop Thomas had me
                    tell the kids in the room my name. When I did, he said, "See, we're are
                    cousins. I am Bishop Thomas and he is Michael Bishop." All the kids
                    loved that.

                    Deacon Michael

                    Joseph wrote:

                    >Dear Father Deacon Michael,
                    > I was tonsured a reader and immediately ordained a subdeacon
                    >afterwards in the ACROD. Afterwards I was accepted into ROCOR. I am
                    >also in the Navy so, unfortunately, have not been able to serve in
                    >one church regularly due to traveling and such. Since ordained, I
                    >have mostly been an Orthodox layleader and had reader services on the
                    >ships I have been on. Every chance I get, I try and visit (or
                    >attend) any Orthodox Church I am near, and to be honest, most
                    >churches (or priests) that I have had contact with, don't know what
                    >to do with a subdeacon. Nor what capacity they may fill. I have
                    >noted also, depending on the jurisdiction, some subdeacons are
                    >ordained, while some are blessed by the bishop. Some are teenagers.
                    >I have had some ask me if I can touch the Alter, others wanting me to
                    >cense. I declined on both. In ACROD they refer to the subdeacon
                    >and "Father Subdeacon" and in others "subdeacon". I'm sure that you
                    >have had similar run-ins. I must say that I feel that I do get much
                    >more respect and dignity than I deserve. My only wish is that
                    >Orthodoxy as a whole would use / standardize the lower clergy much
                    >more than I personally have seen. Just my take on things.
                    >
                    >in Christ,
                    >sdcn joseph
                    >
                    >BTW, I love your web site!!!
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >--- In orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com, "Deacon Michael Bishop"
                    ><Photo@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    >>Apparently there has been no activity on this list. What a shame!
                    >>
                    >>Although I am now a Deacon, I am still very interested in the role
                    >>
                    >>
                    >of
                    >
                    >
                    >>the Reader and of the Subdeacon and I strongly believe that these
                    >>orders should be given much more respect and dignity than they
                    >>
                    >>
                    >receive.
                    >
                    >
                    >>One day I hope to revisit my thesis for my MDiv degree and add much
                    >>more information. Currently I am reading "The Great Entrance" by
                    >>
                    >>
                    >Fr.
                    >
                    >
                    >>Robert Taft, but so far I have not seen any refences to Readers or
                    >>Subdeacons.
                    >>
                    >>If anybody has any information which he thinks might interest me,
                    >>please feel free to e-mail it to me at Deacon@... .
                    >>
                    >>Thank you.
                    >>
                    >>Deacon Michael
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >To learn more about reader services, see:
                    >http://pages.prodigy.net/frjohnwhiteford/horologion.htm
                    >
                    >To access this lists archives, go to:
                    >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
                    >ogion.htm
                    >
                    >To access this lists archives, go to:
                    >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
                    >
                    >Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >

                    --
                    Deacon Michael Bishop
                    570 Saint Mary St
                    Baltimore MD 21201-1936
                    410-225-7743

                    http://www.Michael-Bishop.com

                    See you at the Russian Festival
                    1723 Fairmount Avenue * Baltimore MD 21231
                    17-19 October 2008
                  • Reader Timothy Tadros
                    Dear Father Deacon Michael, In my experience for example in the Antiochian Arch. acolyts, sub-deacons altar boys can touch just about anything even intone
                    Message 9 of 30 , Nov 5, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Dear Father Deacon Michael,
                      In my experience for example in the Antiochian Arch. acolyts,
                      sub-deacons altar boys can touch just about anything even intone
                      ektenia.
                      In the Russian Church they are much more stricter on who may touch
                      the altar. Tonsured Sub-deacons are allowed to touch the Altar they
                      can even go thru the Royal Doors with the bishop when present. They
                      can take off from the Altar the dikyri and trikyri, the bishops mitre
                      for example. They can circumvent around the Altar when the bishop
                      censes standing in front, behind and the sides. They can help devest
                      the Altar of coverings with the help of a priest or deacon and must
                      be fully vested. Those acolyts, readers, and young men who are
                      blessed to wear the orarion usually are only for that parish and it
                      dosen't mean they wear the orarion at every service when the bishop
                      is not there.
                      Rdr Timothy Tadros

                      --- In orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com, Deacon Michael Bishop
                      <Photo@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Dear Subdeacon Joseph,
                      >
                      > You just expressed my sentiment also. My problem was compounded by
                      the
                      > fact that I was a Subdeacon but my title was Reader because I was
                      not
                      > ordained a Subdeacon. I was tonsured a Reader and immediately
                      vested as
                      > a Subdeacon with the rights of a Subdeacon.
                      >
                      > I have always been in a parish environment since being tonsured,
                      > although once a month I had military duty. But then I still could
                      > attend Vespers/Vigil on Saturday evening.
                      >
                      > I definitely noticed that most priests did not know what to do with
                      me.
                      > Now that problem is history for me, but it is something that I
                      still
                      > want to resolve. I saw one Subdeacon touching the side altar at a
                      > cathedral and the Protodeacon jumped all over him. I don't think
                      that
                      > he realized that it was a side altar. This was on Bright
                      Saturday. I
                      > was walking through the Royal Doors until somebody came up to me
                      and
                      > said don't do it again. I really did not know if I should or
                      should not
                      > but when I saw somebody else do it, I did.
                      >
                      > As a Subdeacon I did whatever was the local custom. On several
                      > occasions when serving with the Bishop, I cross in front of the
                      Holy
                      > Table and on one occasion I actually went through the Royal Doors.
                      My
                      > last hiearchial Divine Liturgy before my ordination I carried the
                      > trikiri and did both at the instructions of the Bishop. This was
                      > Antiochian practice.
                      >
                      > I would love to see a standard for the minor orders. I would love
                      to
                      > see some requirements for them and some standard pratice. I was a
                      > Reader for six months before I had a cassock. It was only in time
                      that
                      > I learned that I am supposed to have one. My priest gave me his
                      old
                      > cassock that he wore in the seminary. It was the Roman Catholic
                      style
                      > [at the time they cost $30 and an Orthodox cassock was $150]. I
                      would
                      > tell people that "this was Fr. Constantine's cassock when he was at
                      > Immaculate Conception Orthodox Seminary." Very few people believed
                      me,
                      > thank God.
                      >
                      > When are Readers supposed to wear a cassock? How about
                      Subdeacons? My
                      > former pastor told me to wear mine any time that I am at a church
                      > function, including the Greek Festival. I did. The first time my
                      meal
                      > and my driver's meal were free. I wore my cassock during
                      conferences
                      > and no Bishop ever said a word to me. Earlier this year months
                      before
                      > the date of my ordination was announced, I was at the Parish Life
                      > Conference and taking a picture of a meeting and Bishop Thomas had
                      me
                      > tell the kids in the room my name. When I did, he said, "See,
                      we're are
                      > cousins. I am Bishop Thomas and he is Michael Bishop." All the
                      kids
                      > loved that.
                      >
                      > Deacon Michael
                      >
                      > Joseph wrote:
                      >
                      > >Dear Father Deacon Michael,
                      > > I was tonsured a reader and immediately ordained a subdeacon
                      > >afterwards in the ACROD. Afterwards I was accepted into ROCOR. I
                      am
                      > >also in the Navy so, unfortunately, have not been able to serve in
                      > >one church regularly due to traveling and such. Since ordained, I
                      > >have mostly been an Orthodox layleader and had reader services on
                      the
                      > >ships I have been on. Every chance I get, I try and visit (or
                      > >attend) any Orthodox Church I am near, and to be honest, most
                      > >churches (or priests) that I have had contact with, don't know
                      what
                      > >to do with a subdeacon. Nor what capacity they may fill. I have
                      > >noted also, depending on the jurisdiction, some subdeacons are
                      > >ordained, while some are blessed by the bishop. Some are
                      teenagers.
                      > >I have had some ask me if I can touch the Alter, others wanting me
                      to
                      > >cense. I declined on both. In ACROD they refer to the subdeacon
                      > >and "Father Subdeacon" and in others "subdeacon". I'm sure that
                      you
                      > >have had similar run-ins. I must say that I feel that I do get
                      much
                      > >more respect and dignity than I deserve. My only wish is that
                      > >Orthodoxy as a whole would use / standardize the lower clergy much
                      > >more than I personally have seen. Just my take on things.
                      > >
                      > >in Christ,
                      > >sdcn joseph
                      > >
                      > >BTW, I love your web site!!!
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >--- In orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com, "Deacon Michael Bishop"
                      > ><Photo@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >>Apparently there has been no activity on this list. What a shame!
                      > >>
                      > >>Although I am now a Deacon, I am still very interested in the
                      role
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >of
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >>the Reader and of the Subdeacon and I strongly believe that these
                      > >>orders should be given much more respect and dignity than they
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >receive.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >>One day I hope to revisit my thesis for my MDiv degree and add
                      much
                      > >>more information. Currently I am reading "The Great Entrance" by
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >Fr.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >>Robert Taft, but so far I have not seen any refences to Readers or
                      > >>Subdeacons.
                      > >>
                      > >>If anybody has any information which he thinks might interest me,
                      > >>please feel free to e-mail it to me at Deacon@ .
                      > >>
                      > >>Thank you.
                      > >>
                      > >>Deacon Michael
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >To learn more about reader services, see:
                      > >http://pages.prodigy.net/frjohnwhiteford/horologion.htm
                      > >
                      > >To access this lists archives, go to:
                      > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
                      > >ogion.htm
                      > >
                      > >To access this lists archives, go to:
                      > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
                      > >
                      > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      > --
                      > Deacon Michael Bishop
                      > 570 Saint Mary St
                      > Baltimore MD 21201-1936
                      > 410-225-7743
                      >
                      > http://www.Michael-Bishop.com
                      >
                      > See you at the Russian Festival
                      > 1723 Fairmount Avenue * Baltimore MD 21231
                      > 17-19 October 2008
                      >
                    • Deacon Michael Bishop
                      Here is where part of the problem lies. Reader Timothy and I both have served in the Antiochian Archdiocese and I have served in the OCA and in the MP. I
                      Message 10 of 30 , Nov 5, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Here is where part of the problem lies. Reader Timothy and I both have
                        served in the Antiochian Archdiocese and I have served in the OCA and in
                        the MP. I have also served in other jurisdictions, but that is another
                        story.

                        It is my understanding that only an ordained subdeacon can intone
                        litanies. That is why I never did it except for two priests. In the
                        Greek tradition apparently any altar server can touch the Altar and this
                        might be true in the Antiochian tradition, but I have not see it.

                        In my experience the subdeacons can fetch and place the trikiri and
                        dikiri on the altar. That is the only thing some places. A year ago I
                        witnessed a subdeacon receiving a royal chewing out by a protodeacon
                        because he touched a side altar at a cathedral. He did not realize that
                        it was an altar.

                        I have never seen a subdeacon circumvent around the consecrated altar in
                        a Russian church. I mentioned to some people that I have done it before
                        being ordained a deacon and they are shocked. When Daniel Manzuk and I
                        served with his godfather (Bishop Basil), he told us that we had a
                        choice. We could walk across the altar or go through the deacon's doors
                        during the censing. We selected the former.

                        When Philip was vested with the orarion by Metropolitan Theodosius, he
                        was told that he can wear it any time he serves.

                        This is what I love about Orthodoxy: diversity in practices but unity
                        in faith!

                        Deacon Michael

                        Reader Timothy Tadros wrote:

                        > Dear Father Deacon Michael,
                        > In my experience for example in the Antiochian Arch. acolyts,
                        >sub-deacons altar boys can touch just about anything even intone
                        >ektenia.
                        > In the Russian Church they are much more stricter on who may touch
                        >the altar. Tonsured Sub-deacons are allowed to touch the Altar they
                        >can even go thru the Royal Doors with the bishop when present. They
                        >can take off from the Altar the dikyri and trikyri, the bishops mitre
                        >for example. They can circumvent around the Altar when the bishop
                        >censes standing in front, behind and the sides. They can help devest
                        >the Altar of coverings with the help of a priest or deacon and must
                        >be fully vested. Those acolyts, readers, and young men who are
                        >blessed to wear the orarion usually are only for that parish and it
                        >dosen't mean they wear the orarion at every service when the bishop
                        >is not there.
                        > Rdr Timothy Tadros
                        >
                        >--- In orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com, Deacon Michael Bishop
                        ><Photo@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >>Dear Subdeacon Joseph,
                        >>
                        >>You just expressed my sentiment also. My problem was compounded by
                        >>
                        >>
                        >the
                        >
                        >
                        >>fact that I was a Subdeacon but my title was Reader because I was
                        >>
                        >>
                        >not
                        >
                        >
                        >>ordained a Subdeacon. I was tonsured a Reader and immediately
                        >>
                        >>
                        >vested as
                        >
                        >
                        >>a Subdeacon with the rights of a Subdeacon.
                        >>
                        >>I have always been in a parish environment since being tonsured,
                        >>although once a month I had military duty. But then I still could
                        >>attend Vespers/Vigil on Saturday evening.
                        >>
                        >>I definitely noticed that most priests did not know what to do with
                        >>
                        >>
                        >me.
                        >
                        >
                        >>Now that problem is history for me, but it is something that I
                        >>
                        >>
                        >still
                        >
                        >
                        >>want to resolve. I saw one Subdeacon touching the side altar at a
                        >>cathedral and the Protodeacon jumped all over him. I don't think
                        >>
                        >>
                        >that
                        >
                        >
                        >>he realized that it was a side altar. This was on Bright
                        >>
                        >>
                        >Saturday. I
                        >
                        >
                        >>was walking through the Royal Doors until somebody came up to me
                        >>
                        >>
                        >and
                        >
                        >
                        >>said don't do it again. I really did not know if I should or
                        >>
                        >>
                        >should not
                        >
                        >
                        >>but when I saw somebody else do it, I did.
                        >>
                        >>As a Subdeacon I did whatever was the local custom. On several
                        >>occasions when serving with the Bishop, I cross in front of the
                        >>
                        >>
                        >Holy
                        >
                        >
                        >>Table and on one occasion I actually went through the Royal Doors.
                        >>
                        >>
                        >My
                        >
                        >
                        >>last hiearchial Divine Liturgy before my ordination I carried the
                        >>trikiri and did both at the instructions of the Bishop. This was
                        >>Antiochian practice.
                        >>
                        >>I would love to see a standard for the minor orders. I would love
                        >>
                        >>
                        >to
                        >
                        >
                        >>see some requirements for them and some standard pratice. I was a
                        >>Reader for six months before I had a cassock. It was only in time
                        >>
                        >>
                        >that
                        >
                        >
                        >>I learned that I am supposed to have one. My priest gave me his
                        >>
                        >>
                        >old
                        >
                        >
                        >>cassock that he wore in the seminary. It was the Roman Catholic
                        >>
                        >>
                        >style
                        >
                        >
                        >>[at the time they cost $30 and an Orthodox cassock was $150]. I
                        >>
                        >>
                        >would
                        >
                        >
                        >>tell people that "this was Fr. Constantine's cassock when he was at
                        >>Immaculate Conception Orthodox Seminary." Very few people believed
                        >>
                        >>
                        >me,
                        >
                        >
                        >>thank God.
                        >>
                        >>When are Readers supposed to wear a cassock? How about
                        >>
                        >>
                        >Subdeacons? My
                        >
                        >
                        >>former pastor told me to wear mine any time that I am at a church
                        >>function, including the Greek Festival. I did. The first time my
                        >>
                        >>
                        >meal
                        >
                        >
                        >>and my driver's meal were free. I wore my cassock during
                        >>
                        >>
                        >conferences
                        >
                        >
                        >>and no Bishop ever said a word to me. Earlier this year months
                        >>
                        >>
                        >before
                        >
                        >
                        >>the date of my ordination was announced, I was at the Parish Life
                        >>Conference and taking a picture of a meeting and Bishop Thomas had
                        >>
                        >>
                        >me
                        >
                        >
                        >>tell the kids in the room my name. When I did, he said, "See,
                        >>
                        >>
                        >we're are
                        >
                        >
                        >>cousins. I am Bishop Thomas and he is Michael Bishop." All the
                        >>
                        >>
                        >kids
                        >
                        >
                        >>loved that.
                        >>
                        >>Deacon Michael
                        >>
                        >>Joseph wrote:
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>>Dear Father Deacon Michael,
                        >>> I was tonsured a reader and immediately ordained a subdeacon
                        >>>afterwards in the ACROD. Afterwards I was accepted into ROCOR. I
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >am
                        >
                        >
                        >>>also in the Navy so, unfortunately, have not been able to serve in
                        >>>one church regularly due to traveling and such. Since ordained, I
                        >>>have mostly been an Orthodox layleader and had reader services on
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >the
                        >
                        >
                        >>>ships I have been on. Every chance I get, I try and visit (or
                        >>>attend) any Orthodox Church I am near, and to be honest, most
                        >>>churches (or priests) that I have had contact with, don't know
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >what
                        >
                        >
                        >>>to do with a subdeacon. Nor what capacity they may fill. I have
                        >>>noted also, depending on the jurisdiction, some subdeacons are
                        >>>ordained, while some are blessed by the bishop. Some are
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >teenagers.
                        >
                        >
                        >>>I have had some ask me if I can touch the Alter, others wanting me
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >to
                        >
                        >
                        >>>cense. I declined on both. In ACROD they refer to the subdeacon
                        >>>and "Father Subdeacon" and in others "subdeacon". I'm sure that
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >you
                        >
                        >
                        >>>have had similar run-ins. I must say that I feel that I do get
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >much
                        >
                        >
                        >>>more respect and dignity than I deserve. My only wish is that
                        >>>Orthodoxy as a whole would use / standardize the lower clergy much
                        >>>more than I personally have seen. Just my take on things.
                        >>>
                        >>>in Christ,
                        >>>sdcn joseph
                        >>>
                        >>>BTW, I love your web site!!!
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>--- In orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com, "Deacon Michael Bishop"
                        >>><Photo@> wrote:
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>>Apparently there has been no activity on this list. What a shame!
                        >>>>
                        >>>>Although I am now a Deacon, I am still very interested in the
                        >>>>
                        >>>>
                        >role
                        >
                        >
                        >>>>
                        >>>>
                        >>>>
                        >>>>
                        >>>of
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>>the Reader and of the Subdeacon and I strongly believe that these
                        >>>>orders should be given much more respect and dignity than they
                        >>>>
                        >>>>
                        >>>>
                        >>>>
                        >>>receive.
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>>One day I hope to revisit my thesis for my MDiv degree and add
                        >>>>
                        >>>>
                        >much
                        >
                        >
                        >>>>more information. Currently I am reading "The Great Entrance" by
                        >>>>
                        >>>>
                        >>>>
                        >>>>
                        >>>Fr.
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>>Robert Taft, but so far I have not seen any refences to Readers or
                        >>>>Subdeacons.
                        >>>>
                        >>>>If anybody has any information which he thinks might interest me,
                        >>>>please feel free to e-mail it to me at Deacon@ .
                        >>>>
                        >>>>Thank you.
                        >>>>
                        >>>>Deacon Michael
                        >>>>
                        >>>>
                        >>>>
                        >>>>
                        >>>>
                        >>>
                        >>>To learn more about reader services, see:
                        >>>http://pages.prodigy.net/frjohnwhiteford/horologion.htm
                        >>>
                        >>>To access this lists archives, go to:
                        >>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
                        >>>ogion.htm
                        >>>
                        >>>To access this lists archives, go to:
                        >>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
                        >>>
                        >>>Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>--
                        >>Deacon Michael Bishop
                        >>570 Saint Mary St
                        >>Baltimore MD 21201-1936
                        >>410-225-7743
                        >>
                        >>http://www.Michael-Bishop.com
                        >>
                        >>See you at the Russian Festival
                        >>1723 Fairmount Avenue * Baltimore MD 21231
                        >>17-19 October 2008
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >To learn more about reader services, see:
                        >http://pages.prodigy.net/frjohnwhiteford/horologion.htm
                        >
                        >To access this lists archives, go to:
                        >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
                        >ogion.htm
                        >
                        >To access this lists archives, go to:
                        >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
                        >
                        >Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >

                        --
                        Deacon Michael Bishop
                        570 Saint Mary St
                        Baltimore MD 21201-1936
                        410-225-7743

                        http://www.Michael-Bishop.com

                        See you at the Russian Festival
                        1723 Fairmount Avenue * Baltimore MD 21231
                        17-19 October 2008


                        --
                        Deacon Michael Bishop
                        570 Saint Mary St
                        Baltimore MD 21201-1936
                        410-225-7743

                        http://www.Michael-Bishop.com

                        See you at the Russian Festival
                        1723 Fairmount Avenue * Baltimore MD 21231
                        17-19 October 2008
                      • Rd. Andreas MacLean
                        How sad that this protodeacon felt it necessary to give an altar server a royal chewing out - let s pray that the subdeacon wasn t so discouraged that he
                        Message 11 of 30 , Nov 5, 2007
                        • 0 Attachment
                          How sad that this protodeacon felt it necessary to give an altar server a
                          "royal chewing out" - let's pray that the subdeacon wasn't so discouraged
                          that he left serving the altar. Nothing is as discouraging to see, and
                          lacking in humility, than when a more senior cleric takes an abusive tone
                          towards those beneath him. A lot of the problems we face in our Holy
                          Orthodox Church are from those who may be grounded in academic Orthodoxy,
                          but lack Phronyma and Orthopraxy. The correct attitude for this protodeacon
                          should have been: "how did I go wrong, that this misguided subdeacon felt it
                          necessary to touch a Holy Table. I am the greatest sinner, let me beg
                          forgiveness from this subdeacon for being a poor example."

                          Knowing rubrics and service book instructions can never make up for having
                          an Orthodox heart and mind and spirit directed by the Gospels, the Rudder,
                          the Fathers and a well-grounded spiritual father. We should gently encourage
                          others when they are mistaken, not unduly criticize them.

                          BTW, it is NOT Greek tradition for altar servers to touch the Holy Table nor
                          may anyone but a deacon or priest intone litanies. I was aware of only
                          Antiochians doing this - and I thought they were finally stopping this.

                          In Christ,
                          Reader Andreas


                          On 11/5/07, Deacon Michael Bishop <Photo@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Here is where part of the problem lies. Reader Timothy and I both have
                          > served in the Antiochian Archdiocese and I have served in the OCA and in
                          > the MP. I have also served in other jurisdictions, but that is another
                          > story.
                          >
                          > It is my understanding that only an ordained subdeacon can intone
                          > litanies. That is why I never did it except for two priests. In the
                          > Greek tradition apparently any altar server can touch the Altar and this
                          > might be true in the Antiochian tradition, but I have not see it.
                          >
                          > In my experience the subdeacons can fetch and place the trikiri and
                          > dikiri on the altar. That is the only thing some places. A year ago I
                          > witnessed a subdeacon receiving a royal chewing out by a protodeacon
                          > because he touched a side altar at a cathedral. He did not realize that
                          > it was an altar.
                          >
                          > I have never seen a subdeacon circumvent around the consecrated altar in
                          > a Russian church. I mentioned to some people that I have done it before
                          > being ordained a deacon and they are shocked. When Daniel Manzuk and I
                          > served with his godfather (Bishop Basil), he told us that we had a
                          > choice. We could walk across the altar or go through the deacon's doors
                          > during the censing. We selected the former.
                          >
                          > When Philip was vested with the orarion by Metropolitan Theodosius, he
                          > was told that he can wear it any time he serves.
                          >
                          > This is what I love about Orthodoxy: diversity in practices but unity
                          > in faith!
                          >
                          > Deacon Michael
                          >
                          > Reader Timothy Tadros wrote:
                          >
                          > > Dear Father Deacon Michael,
                          > > In my experience for example in the Antiochian Arch. acolyts,
                          > >sub-deacons altar boys can touch just about anything even intone
                          > >ektenia.
                          > > In the Russian Church they are much more stricter on who may touch
                          > >the altar. Tonsured Sub-deacons are allowed to touch the Altar they
                          > >can even go thru the Royal Doors with the bishop when present. They
                          > >can take off from the Altar the dikyri and trikyri, the bishops mitre
                          > >for example. They can circumvent around the Altar when the bishop
                          > >censes standing in front, behind and the sides. They can help devest
                          > >the Altar of coverings with the help of a priest or deacon and must
                          > >be fully vested. Those acolyts, readers, and young men who are
                          > >blessed to wear the orarion usually are only for that parish and it
                          > >dosen't mean they wear the orarion at every service when the bishop
                          > >is not there.
                          > > Rdr Timothy Tadros
                          > >
                          > >--- In orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com<orthodox-readers%40yahoogroups.com>,
                          > Deacon Michael Bishop
                          > ><Photo@...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >>Dear Subdeacon Joseph,
                          > >>
                          > >>You just expressed my sentiment also. My problem was compounded by
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >the
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >>fact that I was a Subdeacon but my title was Reader because I was
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >not
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >>ordained a Subdeacon. I was tonsured a Reader and immediately
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >vested as
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >>a Subdeacon with the rights of a Subdeacon.
                          > >>
                          > >>I have always been in a parish environment since being tonsured,
                          > >>although once a month I had military duty. But then I still could
                          > >>attend Vespers/Vigil on Saturday evening.
                          > >>
                          > >>I definitely noticed that most priests did not know what to do with
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >me.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >>Now that problem is history for me, but it is something that I
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >still
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >>want to resolve. I saw one Subdeacon touching the side altar at a
                          > >>cathedral and the Protodeacon jumped all over him. I don't think
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >that
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >>he realized that it was a side altar. This was on Bright
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >Saturday. I
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >>was walking through the Royal Doors until somebody came up to me
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >and
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >>said don't do it again. I really did not know if I should or
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >should not
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >>but when I saw somebody else do it, I did.
                          > >>
                          > >>As a Subdeacon I did whatever was the local custom. On several
                          > >>occasions when serving with the Bishop, I cross in front of the
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >Holy
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >>Table and on one occasion I actually went through the Royal Doors.
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >My
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >>last hiearchial Divine Liturgy before my ordination I carried the
                          > >>trikiri and did both at the instructions of the Bishop. This was
                          > >>Antiochian practice.
                          > >>
                          > >>I would love to see a standard for the minor orders. I would love
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >to
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >>see some requirements for them and some standard pratice. I was a
                          > >>Reader for six months before I had a cassock. It was only in time
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >that
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >>I learned that I am supposed to have one. My priest gave me his
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >old
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >>cassock that he wore in the seminary. It was the Roman Catholic
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >style
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >>[at the time they cost $30 and an Orthodox cassock was $150]. I
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >would
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >>tell people that "this was Fr. Constantine's cassock when he was at
                          > >>Immaculate Conception Orthodox Seminary." Very few people believed
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >me,
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >>thank God.
                          > >>
                          > >>When are Readers supposed to wear a cassock? How about
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >Subdeacons? My
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >>former pastor told me to wear mine any time that I am at a church
                          > >>function, including the Greek Festival. I did. The first time my
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >meal
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >>and my driver's meal were free. I wore my cassock during
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >conferences
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >>and no Bishop ever said a word to me. Earlier this year months
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >before
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >>the date of my ordination was announced, I was at the Parish Life
                          > >>Conference and taking a picture of a meeting and Bishop Thomas had
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >me
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >>tell the kids in the room my name. When I did, he said, "See,
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >we're are
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >>cousins. I am Bishop Thomas and he is Michael Bishop." All the
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >kids
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >>loved that.
                          > >>
                          > >>Deacon Michael
                          > >>
                          > >>Joseph wrote:
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >>>Dear Father Deacon Michael,
                          > >>> I was tonsured a reader and immediately ordained a subdeacon
                          > >>>afterwards in the ACROD. Afterwards I was accepted into ROCOR. I
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >am
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >>>also in the Navy so, unfortunately, have not been able to serve in
                          > >>>one church regularly due to traveling and such. Since ordained, I
                          > >>>have mostly been an Orthodox layleader and had reader services on
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >the
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >>>ships I have been on. Every chance I get, I try and visit (or
                          > >>>attend) any Orthodox Church I am near, and to be honest, most
                          > >>>churches (or priests) that I have had contact with, don't know
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >what
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >>>to do with a subdeacon. Nor what capacity they may fill. I have
                          > >>>noted also, depending on the jurisdiction, some subdeacons are
                          > >>>ordained, while some are blessed by the bishop. Some are
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >teenagers.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >>>I have had some ask me if I can touch the Alter, others wanting me
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >to
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >>>cense. I declined on both. In ACROD they refer to the subdeacon
                          > >>>and "Father Subdeacon" and in others "subdeacon". I'm sure that
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >you
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >>>have had similar run-ins. I must say that I feel that I do get
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >much
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >>>more respect and dignity than I deserve. My only wish is that
                          > >>>Orthodoxy as a whole would use / standardize the lower clergy much
                          > >>>more than I personally have seen. Just my take on things.
                          > >>>
                          > >>>in Christ,
                          > >>>sdcn joseph
                          > >>>
                          > >>>BTW, I love your web site!!!
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>--- In orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com<orthodox-readers%40yahoogroups.com>,
                          > "Deacon Michael Bishop"
                          > >>><Photo@> wrote:
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>>Apparently there has been no activity on this list. What a shame!
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>Although I am now a Deacon, I am still very interested in the
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>
                          > >role
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>of
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>>the Reader and of the Subdeacon and I strongly believe that these
                          > >>>>orders should be given much more respect and dignity than they
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>receive.
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>>One day I hope to revisit my thesis for my MDiv degree and add
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>
                          > >much
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >>>>more information. Currently I am reading "The Great Entrance" by
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>Fr.
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>>Robert Taft, but so far I have not seen any refences to Readers or
                          > >>>>Subdeacons.
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>If anybody has any information which he thinks might interest me,
                          > >>>>please feel free to e-mail it to me at Deacon@ .
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>Thank you.
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>Deacon Michael
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>To learn more about reader services, see:
                          > >>>http://pages.prodigy.net/frjohnwhiteford/horologion.htm
                          > >>>
                          > >>>To access this lists archives, go to:
                          > >>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
                          > >>>ogion.htm
                          > >>>
                          > >>>To access this lists archives, go to:
                          > >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
                          > >>>
                          > >>>Yahoo! Groups Links
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>--
                          > >>Deacon Michael Bishop
                          > >>570 Saint Mary St
                          > >>Baltimore MD 21201-1936
                          > >>410-225-7743
                          > >>
                          > >> http://www.Michael-Bishop.com <http://www.michael-bishop.com/>
                          > >>
                          > >>See you at the Russian Festival
                          > >>1723 Fairmount Avenue * Baltimore MD 21231
                          > >>17-19 October 2008
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >To learn more about reader services, see:
                          > >http://pages.prodigy.net/frjohnwhiteford/horologion.htm
                          > >
                          > >To access this lists archives, go to:
                          > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
                          > >ogion.htm
                          > >
                          > >To access this lists archives, go to:
                          > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
                          > >
                          > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          > --
                          > Deacon Michael Bishop
                          > 570 Saint Mary St
                          > Baltimore MD 21201-1936
                          > 410-225-7743
                          >
                          > http://www.Michael-Bishop.com <http://www.michael-bishop.com/>
                          >
                          > See you at the Russian Festival
                          > 1723 Fairmount Avenue * Baltimore MD 21231
                          > 17-19 October 2008
                          >
                          > --
                          > Deacon Michael Bishop
                          > 570 Saint Mary St
                          > Baltimore MD 21201-1936
                          > 410-225-7743
                          >
                          > http://www.Michael-Bishop.com <http://www.michael-bishop.com/>
                          >
                          > See you at the Russian Festival
                          > 1723 Fairmount Avenue * Baltimore MD 21231
                          > 17-19 October 2008
                          >
                          >
                          >


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Deacon Michael Bishop
                          Dear Reader Andreas, Thank God that the subdeacon is still serving. Come to think of it, I have only see subdeacons doing litanies and it is my understanding
                          Message 12 of 30 , Nov 5, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Dear Reader Andreas,

                            Thank God that the subdeacon is still serving.

                            Come to think of it, I have only see subdeacons doing litanies and it is
                            my understanding that this was done so that people would hear some
                            English in the Liturgy. If I am wrong, I hope that somebody will
                            correct me.

                            I have seen altar servers put things on the altar and take things off in
                            Greek churches. Whether or not this is the standard, I cannot say. I
                            can only report what I have seen. I personally do not like that practice.

                            Earlier today in a post I mentioned that before I was ordained a deacon
                            on several occasions I have walked across the front of the Altar while
                            serving with a bishop. This is definitely prohibited in the Russian
                            practice and I suspect that it is also prohibited in Greek practice.
                            The times that I did it was when serving with Antiochian bishops and one
                            of those times was in a Greek church.

                            Before the Liturgy the bishop was giving some instructions to us
                            subdeacons: his godson and me. He told us that when he censes the
                            Altar at the Trisagion and Cherubim Hymns, we had a choice. We could
                            exit the north door and come back in through the south door and just go
                            across the front of the Altar. Before he told us this he told me that
                            the last time I served with him he was surprised that I used the
                            deacons' doors instead of just going across the front of the Altar.
                            Being from the Russian practice, there was never a question in my mind
                            that I use the doors. Since he gave us the option, Daniel and I both
                            selected to go across the front of the Altar. We figured that we might
                            never have the chance again.

                            On the day of my ordination one of the subdeacons told me that although
                            they tell the person being ordained what to do, some still mess up
                            royally. They are so nervous. I was as calm as a cucumber. First of
                            all, there were prayers all over the world for me that day. Second, I
                            have helped ordained enough deacons to know what to do, but it is easier
                            to tell somebody than to do it yourself. Finally, I have done most of
                            these things in the past, so it was not really a big deal any longer.
                            The ice has been broken and it was much easier for me to do what I am
                            surposed to do. The only thing that I did not know was what to kiss
                            when I prostrated in front of the altar and I also did not know how to
                            place my hands on the altar. I knew to go down on one knee because I
                            used that term many times in the past.

                            Before I went to the seminary I was one of Metropolitan Theodosius'
                            "Roving Subdeacons." Yaroslav, Larry, and I would go around the Diocese
                            of Washington and serve with him. This is also why I have my own
                            vestments. The problem is that I did not have cuffs made when I ordered
                            the vestments. So some of my vestments do not have cuffs today. One of
                            my white robes has nothing to go with it, not even a stole. But I have
                            a red stole and matching cuffs which I wear with other colors. We're
                            trying to work on that now.

                            Deacon Michael


                            Rd. Andreas MacLean wrote:

                            >How sad that this protodeacon felt it necessary to give an altar server a
                            >"royal chewing out" - let's pray that the subdeacon wasn't so discouraged
                            >that he left serving the altar. Nothing is as discouraging to see, and
                            >lacking in humility, than when a more senior cleric takes an abusive tone
                            >towards those beneath him. A lot of the problems we face in our Holy
                            >Orthodox Church are from those who may be grounded in academic Orthodoxy,
                            >but lack Phronyma and Orthopraxy. The correct attitude for this protodeacon
                            >should have been: "how did I go wrong, that this misguided subdeacon felt it
                            >necessary to touch a Holy Table. I am the greatest sinner, let me beg
                            >forgiveness from this subdeacon for being a poor example."
                            >
                            >Knowing rubrics and service book instructions can never make up for having
                            >an Orthodox heart and mind and spirit directed by the Gospels, the Rudder,
                            >the Fathers and a well-grounded spiritual father. We should gently encourage
                            >others when they are mistaken, not unduly criticize them.
                            >
                            >BTW, it is NOT Greek tradition for altar servers to touch the Holy Table nor
                            >may anyone but a deacon or priest intone litanies. I was aware of only
                            >Antiochians doing this - and I thought they were finally stopping this.
                            >
                            >In Christ,
                            >Reader Andreas
                            >
                            >
                            >On 11/5/07, Deacon Michael Bishop <Photo@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            >> Here is where part of the problem lies. Reader Timothy and I both have
                            >>served in the Antiochian Archdiocese and I have served in the OCA and in
                            >>the MP. I have also served in other jurisdictions, but that is another
                            >>story.
                            >>
                            >>It is my understanding that only an ordained subdeacon can intone
                            >>litanies. That is why I never did it except for two priests. In the
                            >>Greek tradition apparently any altar server can touch the Altar and this
                            >>might be true in the Antiochian tradition, but I have not see it.
                            >>
                            >>In my experience the subdeacons can fetch and place the trikiri and
                            >>dikiri on the altar. That is the only thing some places. A year ago I
                            >>witnessed a subdeacon receiving a royal chewing out by a protodeacon
                            >>because he touched a side altar at a cathedral. He did not realize that
                            >>it was an altar.
                            >>
                            >>I have never seen a subdeacon circumvent around the consecrated altar in
                            >>a Russian church. I mentioned to some people that I have done it before
                            >>being ordained a deacon and they are shocked. When Daniel Manzuk and I
                            >>served with his godfather (Bishop Basil), he told us that we had a
                            >>choice. We could walk across the altar or go through the deacon's doors
                            >>during the censing. We selected the former.
                            >>
                            >>When Philip was vested with the orarion by Metropolitan Theodosius, he
                            >>was told that he can wear it any time he serves.
                            >>
                            >>This is what I love about Orthodoxy: diversity in practices but unity
                            >>in faith!
                            >>
                            >>Deacon Michael
                            >>
                            >>Reader Timothy Tadros wrote:
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>>Dear Father Deacon Michael,
                            >>>In my experience for example in the Antiochian Arch. acolyts,
                            >>>sub-deacons altar boys can touch just about anything even intone
                            >>>ektenia.
                            >>>In the Russian Church they are much more stricter on who may touch
                            >>>the altar. Tonsured Sub-deacons are allowed to touch the Altar they
                            >>>can even go thru the Royal Doors with the bishop when present. They
                            >>>can take off from the Altar the dikyri and trikyri, the bishops mitre
                            >>>for example. They can circumvent around the Altar when the bishop
                            >>>censes standing in front, behind and the sides. They can help devest
                            >>>the Altar of coverings with the help of a priest or deacon and must
                            >>>be fully vested. Those acolyts, readers, and young men who are
                            >>>blessed to wear the orarion usually are only for that parish and it
                            >>>dosen't mean they wear the orarion at every service when the bishop
                            >>>is not there.
                            >>>Rdr Timothy Tadros
                            >>>
                            >>>--- In orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com<orthodox-readers%40yahoogroups.com>,
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>Deacon Michael Bishop
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>><Photo@...> wrote:
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>>Dear Subdeacon Joseph,
                            >>>>
                            >>>>You just expressed my sentiment also. My problem was compounded by
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>the
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>>fact that I was a Subdeacon but my title was Reader because I was
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>not
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>>ordained a Subdeacon. I was tonsured a Reader and immediately
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>vested as
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>>a Subdeacon with the rights of a Subdeacon.
                            >>>>
                            >>>>I have always been in a parish environment since being tonsured,
                            >>>>although once a month I had military duty. But then I still could
                            >>>>attend Vespers/Vigil on Saturday evening.
                            >>>>
                            >>>>I definitely noticed that most priests did not know what to do with
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>me.
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>>Now that problem is history for me, but it is something that I
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>still
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>>want to resolve. I saw one Subdeacon touching the side altar at a
                            >>>>cathedral and the Protodeacon jumped all over him. I don't think
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>that
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>>he realized that it was a side altar. This was on Bright
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>Saturday. I
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>>was walking through the Royal Doors until somebody came up to me
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>and
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>>said don't do it again. I really did not know if I should or
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>should not
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>>but when I saw somebody else do it, I did.
                            >>>>
                            >>>>As a Subdeacon I did whatever was the local custom. On several
                            >>>>occasions when serving with the Bishop, I cross in front of the
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>Holy
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>>Table and on one occasion I actually went through the Royal Doors.
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>My
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>>last hiearchial Divine Liturgy before my ordination I carried the
                            >>>>trikiri and did both at the instructions of the Bishop. This was
                            >>>>Antiochian practice.
                            >>>>
                            >>>>I would love to see a standard for the minor orders. I would love
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>to
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>>see some requirements for them and some standard pratice. I was a
                            >>>>Reader for six months before I had a cassock. It was only in time
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>that
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>>I learned that I am supposed to have one. My priest gave me his
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>old
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>>cassock that he wore in the seminary. It was the Roman Catholic
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>style
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>>[at the time they cost $30 and an Orthodox cassock was $150]. I
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>would
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>>tell people that "this was Fr. Constantine's cassock when he was at
                            >>>>Immaculate Conception Orthodox Seminary." Very few people believed
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>me,
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>>thank God.
                            >>>>
                            >>>>When are Readers supposed to wear a cassock? How about
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>Subdeacons? My
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>>former pastor told me to wear mine any time that I am at a church
                            >>>>function, including the Greek Festival. I did. The first time my
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>meal
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>>and my driver's meal were free. I wore my cassock during
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>conferences
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>>and no Bishop ever said a word to me. Earlier this year months
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>before
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>>the date of my ordination was announced, I was at the Parish Life
                            >>>>Conference and taking a picture of a meeting and Bishop Thomas had
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>me
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>>tell the kids in the room my name. When I did, he said, "See,
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>we're are
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>>cousins. I am Bishop Thomas and he is Michael Bishop." All the
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>kids
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>>loved that.
                            >>>>
                            >>>>Deacon Michael
                            >>>>
                            >>>>Joseph wrote:
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>>>Dear Father Deacon Michael,
                            >>>>>I was tonsured a reader and immediately ordained a subdeacon
                            >>>>>afterwards in the ACROD. Afterwards I was accepted into ROCOR. I
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>am
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>>>also in the Navy so, unfortunately, have not been able to serve in
                            >>>>>one church regularly due to traveling and such. Since ordained, I
                            >>>>>have mostly been an Orthodox layleader and had reader services on
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>the
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>>>ships I have been on. Every chance I get, I try and visit (or
                            >>>>>attend) any Orthodox Church I am near, and to be honest, most
                            >>>>>churches (or priests) that I have had contact with, don't know
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>what
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>>>to do with a subdeacon. Nor what capacity they may fill. I have
                            >>>>>noted also, depending on the jurisdiction, some subdeacons are
                            >>>>>ordained, while some are blessed by the bishop. Some are
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>teenagers.
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>>>I have had some ask me if I can touch the Alter, others wanting me
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>to
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>>>cense. I declined on both. In ACROD they refer to the subdeacon
                            >>>>>and "Father Subdeacon" and in others "subdeacon". I'm sure that
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>you
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>>>have had similar run-ins. I must say that I feel that I do get
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>much
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>>>more respect and dignity than I deserve. My only wish is that
                            >>>>>Orthodoxy as a whole would use / standardize the lower clergy much
                            >>>>>more than I personally have seen. Just my take on things.
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>in Christ,
                            >>>>>sdcn joseph
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>BTW, I love your web site!!!
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>--- In orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com<orthodox-readers%40yahoogroups.com>,
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>"Deacon Michael Bishop"
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>>>><Photo@> wrote:
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>>Apparently there has been no activity on this list. What a shame!
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>>>>Although I am now a Deacon, I am still very interested in the
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>role
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>>>of
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>>the Reader and of the Subdeacon and I strongly believe that these
                            >>>>>>orders should be given much more respect and dignity than they
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>>>receive.
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>>One day I hope to revisit my thesis for my MDiv degree and add
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>much
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>>>>more information. Currently I am reading "The Great Entrance" by
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>>>Fr.
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>>Robert Taft, but so far I have not seen any refences to Readers or
                            >>>>>>Subdeacons.
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>>>>If anybody has any information which he thinks might interest me,
                            >>>>>>please feel free to e-mail it to me at Deacon@ .
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>>>>Thank you.
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>>>>Deacon Michael
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>>>To learn more about reader services, see:
                            >>>>>http://pages.prodigy.net/frjohnwhiteford/horologion.htm
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>To access this lists archives, go to:
                            >>>>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
                            >>>>>ogion.htm
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>To access this lists archives, go to:
                            >>>>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>--
                            >>>>Deacon Michael Bishop
                            >>>>570 Saint Mary St
                            >>>>Baltimore MD 21201-1936
                            >>>>410-225-7743
                            >>>>
                            >>>>http://www.Michael-Bishop.com <http://www.michael-bishop.com/>
                            >>>>
                            >>>>See you at the Russian Festival
                            >>>>1723 Fairmount Avenue * Baltimore MD 21231
                            >>>>17-19 October 2008
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>To learn more about reader services, see:
                            >>>http://pages.prodigy.net/frjohnwhiteford/horologion.htm
                            >>>
                            >>>To access this lists archives, go to:
                            >>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
                            >>>ogion.htm
                            >>>
                            >>>To access this lists archives, go to:
                            >>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
                            >>>
                            >>>Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>--
                            >>Deacon Michael Bishop
                            >>570 Saint Mary St
                            >>Baltimore MD 21201-1936
                            >>410-225-7743
                            >>
                            >>http://www.Michael-Bishop.com <http://www.michael-bishop.com/>
                            >>
                            >>See you at the Russian Festival
                            >>1723 Fairmount Avenue * Baltimore MD 21231
                            >>17-19 October 2008
                            >>
                            >>--
                            >>Deacon Michael Bishop
                            >>570 Saint Mary St
                            >>Baltimore MD 21201-1936
                            >>410-225-7743
                            >>
                            >>http://www.Michael-Bishop.com <http://www.michael-bishop.com/>
                            >>
                            >>See you at the Russian Festival
                            >>1723 Fairmount Avenue * Baltimore MD 21231
                            >>17-19 October 2008
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >
                            >
                            >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >To learn more about reader services, see:
                            >http://pages.prodigy.net/frjohnwhiteford/horologion.htm
                            >
                            >To access this lists archives, go to:
                            >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
                            >ogion.htm
                            >
                            >To access this lists archives, go to:
                            >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
                            >
                            >Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >

                            --
                            Deacon Michael Bishop
                            570 Saint Mary St
                            Baltimore MD 21201-1936
                            410-225-7743

                            http://www.Michael-Bishop.com

                            See you at the Russian Festival
                            1723 Fairmount Avenue * Baltimore MD 21231
                            17-19 October 2008
                          • Reader Timothy Tadros
                            Father Deacon Michael, I understand that also! Sub-deacons are tonsured (Chierotessa) not ordained (Chiertonia). I received a royal chewing out when I brought
                            Message 13 of 30 , Nov 5, 2007
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Father Deacon Michael,
                              I understand that also! Sub-deacons are tonsured (Chierotessa)
                              not ordained (Chiertonia).
                              I received a royal chewing out when I brought the bishops crozier
                              into the altar for dismanteling. Russian tradition the crozier does
                              not ever go in the Altar area at all except for the Patriarch. In the
                              Greek, Antiochian, Serbian, Ukrainian the bishop censes holding it.
                              I am surprised you have never seen sub-deacons circumventing the
                              altar!. But how many parishes would have 2 or more sub-deacons?
                              Cathedral parishes one would think they would have a plethora of
                              servers but alas many don't.
                              As an example: At vigil the polyeleos has just finished the bishop
                              and clergy are standing before the icon of the feast ( a polyeleos/
                              vigil rank service at least in ROCOR) at the start of the "Blamless"
                              the tonsured sub-deacons with the dikyri and trikyri are standing on
                              either side of the feast/icon, the deacons with their candle opposit
                              the bishop. The bishop moves forward to cense the icon and they go
                              around or circumvent the icon usally once (platyanitsa and Cross 3
                              times). The deacons go into the altar on the east side the sub-
                              deacons help the bishop into the altar thru the Royal Doors and move
                              again to the North and South. They again circumvent around the Altar
                              opposit the bishop and they continue with the usualy censing it's
                              very beautiful!
                              The blessed readers or servers wearing the orarion could go around
                              the icon but would stop and stand on the solea in front of the
                              iconstasis while the bishop and deacon(s) censed inside the Altar.
                              Rdr Timothy Tadros

                              --- In orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com, Deacon Michael Bishop
                              <Photo@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Here is where part of the problem lies. Reader Timothy and I both
                              have
                              > served in the Antiochian Archdiocese and I have served in the OCA
                              and in
                              > the MP. I have also served in other jurisdictions, but that is
                              another
                              > story.
                              >
                              > It is my understanding that only an ordained subdeacon can intone
                              > litanies. That is why I never did it except for two priests. In
                              the
                              > Greek tradition apparently any altar server can touch the Altar and
                              this
                              > might be true in the Antiochian tradition, but I have not see it.
                              >
                              > In my experience the subdeacons can fetch and place the trikiri and
                              > dikiri on the altar. That is the only thing some places. A year
                              ago I
                              > witnessed a subdeacon receiving a royal chewing out by a
                              protodeacon
                              > because he touched a side altar at a cathedral. He did not realize
                              that
                              > it was an altar.
                              >
                              > I have never seen a subdeacon circumvent around the consecrated
                              altar in
                              > a Russian church. I mentioned to some people that I have done it
                              before
                              > being ordained a deacon and they are shocked. When Daniel Manzuk
                              and I
                              > served with his godfather (Bishop Basil), he told us that we had a
                              > choice. We could walk across the altar or go through the deacon's
                              doors
                              > during the censing. We selected the former.
                              >
                              > When Philip was vested with the orarion by Metropolitan Theodosius,
                              he
                              > was told that he can wear it any time he serves.
                              >
                              > This is what I love about Orthodoxy: diversity in practices but
                              unity
                              > in faith!
                              >
                              > Deacon Michael
                              >
                              > Reader Timothy Tadros wrote:
                              >
                              > > Dear Father Deacon Michael,
                              > > In my experience for example in the Antiochian Arch. acolyts,
                              > >sub-deacons altar boys can touch just about anything even intone
                              > >ektenia.
                              > > In the Russian Church they are much more stricter on who may
                              touch
                              > >the altar. Tonsured Sub-deacons are allowed to touch the Altar
                              they
                              > >can even go thru the Royal Doors with the bishop when present.
                              They
                              > >can take off from the Altar the dikyri and trikyri, the bishops
                              mitre
                              > >for example. They can circumvent around the Altar when the bishop
                              > >censes standing in front, behind and the sides. They can help
                              devest
                              > >the Altar of coverings with the help of a priest or deacon and
                              must
                              > >be fully vested. Those acolyts, readers, and young men who are
                              > >blessed to wear the orarion usually are only for that parish and
                              it
                              > >dosen't mean they wear the orarion at every service when the
                              bishop
                              > >is not there.
                              > > Rdr Timothy Tadros
                              > >
                              > >--- In orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com, Deacon Michael Bishop
                              > ><Photo@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >>Dear Subdeacon Joseph,
                              > >>
                              > >>You just expressed my sentiment also. My problem was compounded
                              by
                              > >>
                              > >>
                              > >the
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >>fact that I was a Subdeacon but my title was Reader because I was
                              > >>
                              > >>
                              > >not
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >>ordained a Subdeacon. I was tonsured a Reader and immediately
                              > >>
                              > >>
                              > >vested as
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >>a Subdeacon with the rights of a Subdeacon.
                              > >>
                              > >>I have always been in a parish environment since being tonsured,
                              > >>although once a month I had military duty. But then I still
                              could
                              > >>attend Vespers/Vigil on Saturday evening.
                              > >>
                              > >>I definitely noticed that most priests did not know what to do
                              with
                              > >>
                              > >>
                              > >me.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >>Now that problem is history for me, but it is something that I
                              > >>
                              > >>
                              > >still
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >>want to resolve. I saw one Subdeacon touching the side altar at
                              a
                              > >>cathedral and the Protodeacon jumped all over him. I don't think
                              > >>
                              > >>
                              > >that
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >>he realized that it was a side altar. This was on Bright
                              > >>
                              > >>
                              > >Saturday. I
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >>was walking through the Royal Doors until somebody came up to me
                              > >>
                              > >>
                              > >and
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >>said don't do it again. I really did not know if I should or
                              > >>
                              > >>
                              > >should not
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >>but when I saw somebody else do it, I did.
                              > >>
                              > >>As a Subdeacon I did whatever was the local custom. On several
                              > >>occasions when serving with the Bishop, I cross in front of the
                              > >>
                              > >>
                              > >Holy
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >>Table and on one occasion I actually went through the Royal
                              Doors.
                              > >>
                              > >>
                              > >My
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >>last hiearchial Divine Liturgy before my ordination I carried the
                              > >>trikiri and did both at the instructions of the Bishop. This was
                              > >>Antiochian practice.
                              > >>
                              > >>I would love to see a standard for the minor orders. I would
                              love
                              > >>
                              > >>
                              > >to
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >>see some requirements for them and some standard pratice. I was
                              a
                              > >>Reader for six months before I had a cassock. It was only in
                              time
                              > >>
                              > >>
                              > >that
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >>I learned that I am supposed to have one. My priest gave me his
                              > >>
                              > >>
                              > >old
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >>cassock that he wore in the seminary. It was the Roman Catholic
                              > >>
                              > >>
                              > >style
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >>[at the time they cost $30 and an Orthodox cassock was $150]. I
                              > >>
                              > >>
                              > >would
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >>tell people that "this was Fr. Constantine's cassock when he was
                              at
                              > >>Immaculate Conception Orthodox Seminary." Very few people
                              believed
                              > >>
                              > >>
                              > >me,
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >>thank God.
                              > >>
                              > >>When are Readers supposed to wear a cassock? How about
                              > >>
                              > >>
                              > >Subdeacons? My
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >>former pastor told me to wear mine any time that I am at a church
                              > >>function, including the Greek Festival. I did. The first time
                              my
                              > >>
                              > >>
                              > >meal
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >>and my driver's meal were free. I wore my cassock during
                              > >>
                              > >>
                              > >conferences
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >>and no Bishop ever said a word to me. Earlier this year months
                              > >>
                              > >>
                              > >before
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >>the date of my ordination was announced, I was at the Parish Life
                              > >>Conference and taking a picture of a meeting and Bishop Thomas
                              had
                              > >>
                              > >>
                              > >me
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >>tell the kids in the room my name. When I did, he said, "See,
                              > >>
                              > >>
                              > >we're are
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >>cousins. I am Bishop Thomas and he is Michael Bishop." All the
                              > >>
                              > >>
                              > >kids
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >>loved that.
                              > >>
                              > >>Deacon Michael
                              > >>
                              > >>Joseph wrote:
                              > >>
                              > >>
                              > >>
                              > >>>Dear Father Deacon Michael,
                              > >>> I was tonsured a reader and immediately ordained a subdeacon
                              > >>>afterwards in the ACROD. Afterwards I was accepted into ROCOR.
                              I
                              > >>>
                              > >>>
                              > >am
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >>>also in the Navy so, unfortunately, have not been able to serve
                              in
                              > >>>one church regularly due to traveling and such. Since ordained,
                              I
                              > >>>have mostly been an Orthodox layleader and had reader services
                              on
                              > >>>
                              > >>>
                              > >the
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >>>ships I have been on. Every chance I get, I try and visit (or
                              > >>>attend) any Orthodox Church I am near, and to be honest, most
                              > >>>churches (or priests) that I have had contact with, don't know
                              > >>>
                              > >>>
                              > >what
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >>>to do with a subdeacon. Nor what capacity they may fill. I
                              have
                              > >>>noted also, depending on the jurisdiction, some subdeacons are
                              > >>>ordained, while some are blessed by the bishop. Some are
                              > >>>
                              > >>>
                              > >teenagers.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >>>I have had some ask me if I can touch the Alter, others wanting
                              me
                              > >>>
                              > >>>
                              > >to
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >>>cense. I declined on both. In ACROD they refer to the
                              subdeacon
                              > >>>and "Father Subdeacon" and in others "subdeacon". I'm sure that
                              > >>>
                              > >>>
                              > >you
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >>>have had similar run-ins. I must say that I feel that I do get
                              > >>>
                              > >>>
                              > >much
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >>>more respect and dignity than I deserve. My only wish is that
                              > >>>Orthodoxy as a whole would use / standardize the lower clergy
                              much
                              > >>>more than I personally have seen. Just my take on things.
                              > >>>
                              > >>>in Christ,
                              > >>>sdcn joseph
                              > >>>
                              > >>>BTW, I love your web site!!!
                              > >>>
                              > >>>
                              > >>>
                              > >>>
                              > >>>
                              > >>>--- In orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com, "Deacon Michael Bishop"
                              > >>><Photo@> wrote:
                              > >>>
                              > >>>
                              > >>>
                              > >>>
                              > >>>>Apparently there has been no activity on this list. What a
                              shame!
                              > >>>>
                              > >>>>Although I am now a Deacon, I am still very interested in the
                              > >>>>
                              > >>>>
                              > >role
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >>>>
                              > >>>>
                              > >>>>
                              > >>>>
                              > >>>of
                              > >>>
                              > >>>
                              > >>>
                              > >>>
                              > >>>>the Reader and of the Subdeacon and I strongly believe that
                              these
                              > >>>>orders should be given much more respect and dignity than they
                              > >>>>
                              > >>>>
                              > >>>>
                              > >>>>
                              > >>>receive.
                              > >>>
                              > >>>
                              > >>>
                              > >>>
                              > >>>>One day I hope to revisit my thesis for my MDiv degree and add
                              > >>>>
                              > >>>>
                              > >much
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >>>>more information. Currently I am reading "The Great Entrance"
                              by
                              > >>>>
                              > >>>>
                              > >>>>
                              > >>>>
                              > >>>Fr.
                              > >>>
                              > >>>
                              > >>>
                              > >>>
                              > >>>>Robert Taft, but so far I have not seen any refences to Readers
                              or
                              > >>>>Subdeacons.
                              > >>>>
                              > >>>>If anybody has any information which he thinks might interest
                              me,
                              > >>>>please feel free to e-mail it to me at Deacon@ .
                              > >>>>
                              > >>>>Thank you.
                              > >>>>
                              > >>>>Deacon Michael
                              > >>>>
                              > >>>>
                              > >>>>
                              > >>>>
                              > >>>>
                              > >>>
                              > >>>To learn more about reader services, see:
                              > >>>http://pages.prodigy.net/frjohnwhiteford/horologion.htm
                              > >>>
                              > >>>To access this lists archives, go to:
                              > >>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
                              > >>>ogion.htm
                              > >>>
                              > >>>To access this lists archives, go to:
                              > >>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
                              > >>>
                              > >>>Yahoo! Groups Links
                              > >>>
                              > >>>
                              > >>>
                              > >>>
                              > >>>
                              > >>>
                              > >>>
                              > >>>
                              > >>>
                              > >>--
                              > >>Deacon Michael Bishop
                              > >>570 Saint Mary St
                              > >>Baltimore MD 21201-1936
                              > >>410-225-7743
                              > >>
                              > >>http://www.Michael-Bishop.com
                              > >>
                              > >>See you at the Russian Festival
                              > >>1723 Fairmount Avenue * Baltimore MD 21231
                              > >>17-19 October 2008
                              > >>
                              > >>
                              > >>
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >To learn more about reader services, see:
                              > >http://pages.prodigy.net/frjohnwhiteford/horologion.htm
                              > >
                              > >To access this lists archives, go to:
                              > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
                              > >ogion.htm
                              > >
                              > >To access this lists archives, go to:
                              > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
                              > >
                              > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                              > --
                              > Deacon Michael Bishop
                              > 570 Saint Mary St
                              > Baltimore MD 21201-1936
                              > 410-225-7743
                              >
                              > http://www.Michael-Bishop.com
                              >
                              > See you at the Russian Festival
                              > 1723 Fairmount Avenue * Baltimore MD 21231
                              > 17-19 October 2008
                              >
                              >
                              > --
                              > Deacon Michael Bishop
                              > 570 Saint Mary St
                              > Baltimore MD 21201-1936
                              > 410-225-7743
                              >
                              > http://www.Michael-Bishop.com
                              >
                              > See you at the Russian Festival
                              > 1723 Fairmount Avenue * Baltimore MD 21231
                              > 17-19 October 2008
                              >
                            • Deacon Michael Bishop
                              First of all, I have a confession to make. I started this thread because I wanted to add this list to my address book. Seriously. But I m extremely happy
                              Message 14 of 30 , Nov 5, 2007
                              • 0 Attachment
                                First of all, I have a confession to make. I started this thread
                                because I wanted to add this list to my address book. Seriously. But
                                I'm extremely happy that I did because we are doing what I was hoping
                                that this would do when I first joined. The amount of information which
                                I am receiving is fantastic. The differences in practices is great!

                                I was told that subdeacons are ordained. In "The Book of Needs," Volume
                                I on page 243 we have "Teh Office of Ordination of a Subdeacon." On
                                page 244 it says "the newly-ordained Subdeacon stood on the Soleas..."
                                And latger it says ""And at the Great Entrance,[the newly-ordained
                                Subdeacon] walks behind all the Clergy. The difference is that
                                subdeacons are ordained outside the Altar before the beginning of
                                Liturgy and deacons and priests are ordained in the Altar during the
                                Liturgy. Did you know that a deacon can be ordained during the
                                Presanctified Liturgy? I just learned that while checking up on what
                                you just said about subdeacons' not being ordained.

                                I think that you are correct in saying that in the Russian traditon the
                                crozier does not go into the Altar, but I remember on Education Day in
                                1988 (I think that was the correct year) Archbishop Peter wanted his
                                crozier in the Altar. He never got it. It was just too much to try to
                                accommodate him at that time.

                                At my cathedral (I always refer to St. Nicholas Cathedral in Washington
                                DC as "my cathedral" since every Bishop is supposed to have a cathedral
                                and most people at St. Nicholas know my history there) when I was there
                                we had four subdeacons. I was the junior one. MOst of the time when I
                                visited a parish as a subdeacon, I would end up as the dikiri carrier
                                because there was nobody there who knew anything.

                                You are absolutely correct about the Greek, Antiochian, and Ukrainian
                                bishops holding the crozier as they cense at the Trisagion and Cherubim
                                Hymns. At least this has been my experience. But I have never seen
                                subdeacons going through the Royal Doors or walking in front of the Holy
                                Table in the Russian practice. When I told other Russians that I have
                                done this, they are usually shocked.

                                None of this bothers me because we do what we need to do. I was not hit
                                by a lighting bolt when I went through the Royal Doors as a subdeacon
                                when serving with Bishop Thomas. Incidentally, I was not an ordained
                                subdeacon but I have been vested by the bishop to serve as a subdeacon.
                                He just did not say the prayer of ordination since I was not married. I
                                suspect that if I were married, I would had been ordained then.

                                Fr. John Shaw did mention that subdeacons would help the bishop to go
                                through the Royal Doors. I remember his comments as response to a
                                liturgical thrivia that I asked years ago. Unfortunately I don't think
                                that I had saved it. If I did, I would probably have a difficult time
                                finding it. You can put a lot of text in six gigabytes of memory. In
                                that space I have several versions of the Bible in several languages,
                                all my liturgical text and back-up and supporting data, over 1,000
                                icons, E-mail messages for the last several years, jokes, and God knows
                                what else.

                                Deacon Michael

                                Reader Timothy Tadros wrote:

                                > Father Deacon Michael,
                                > I understand that also! Sub-deacons are tonsured (Chierotessa)
                                >not ordained (Chiertonia).
                                > I received a royal chewing out when I brought the bishops crozier
                                >into the altar for dismanteling. Russian tradition the crozier does
                                >not ever go in the Altar area at all except for the Patriarch. In the
                                >Greek, Antiochian, Serbian, Ukrainian the bishop censes holding it.
                                > I am surprised you have never seen sub-deacons circumventing the
                                >altar!. But how many parishes would have 2 or more sub-deacons?
                                >Cathedral parishes one would think they would have a plethora of
                                >servers but alas many don't.
                                > As an example: At vigil the polyeleos has just finished the bishop
                                >and clergy are standing before the icon of the feast ( a polyeleos/
                                >vigil rank service at least in ROCOR) at the start of the "Blamless"
                                >the tonsured sub-deacons with the dikyri and trikyri are standing on
                                >either side of the feast/icon, the deacons with their candle opposit
                                >the bishop. The bishop moves forward to cense the icon and they go
                                >around or circumvent the icon usally once (platyanitsa and Cross 3
                                >times). The deacons go into the altar on the east side the sub-
                                >deacons help the bishop into the altar thru the Royal Doors and move
                                >again to the North and South. They again circumvent around the Altar
                                >opposit the bishop and they continue with the usualy censing it's
                                >very beautiful!
                                > The blessed readers or servers wearing the orarion could go around
                                >the icon but would stop and stand on the solea in front of the
                                >iconstasis while the bishop and deacon(s) censed inside the Altar.
                                >Rdr Timothy Tadros
                                >
                                >--- In orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com, Deacon Michael Bishop
                                ><Photo@...> wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                >>Here is where part of the problem lies. Reader Timothy and I both
                                >>
                                >>
                                >have
                                >
                                >
                                >>served in the Antiochian Archdiocese and I have served in the OCA
                                >>
                                >>
                                >and in
                                >
                                >
                                >>the MP. I have also served in other jurisdictions, but that is
                                >>
                                >>
                                >another
                                >
                                >
                                >>story.
                                >>
                                >>It is my understanding that only an ordained subdeacon can intone
                                >>litanies. That is why I never did it except for two priests. In
                                >>
                                >>
                                >the
                                >
                                >
                                >>Greek tradition apparently any altar server can touch the Altar and
                                >>
                                >>
                                >this
                                >
                                >
                                >>might be true in the Antiochian tradition, but I have not see it.
                                >>
                                >>In my experience the subdeacons can fetch and place the trikiri and
                                >>dikiri on the altar. That is the only thing some places. A year
                                >>
                                >>
                                >ago I
                                >
                                >
                                >>witnessed a subdeacon receiving a royal chewing out by a
                                >>
                                >>
                                >protodeacon
                                >
                                >
                                >>because he touched a side altar at a cathedral. He did not realize
                                >>
                                >>
                                >that
                                >
                                >
                                >>it was an altar.
                                >>
                                >>I have never seen a subdeacon circumvent around the consecrated
                                >>
                                >>
                                >altar in
                                >
                                >
                                >>a Russian church. I mentioned to some people that I have done it
                                >>
                                >>
                                >before
                                >
                                >
                                >>being ordained a deacon and they are shocked. When Daniel Manzuk
                                >>
                                >>
                                >and I
                                >
                                >
                                >>served with his godfather (Bishop Basil), he told us that we had a
                                >>choice. We could walk across the altar or go through the deacon's
                                >>
                                >>
                                >doors
                                >
                                >
                                >>during the censing. We selected the former.
                                >>
                                >>When Philip was vested with the orarion by Metropolitan Theodosius,
                                >>
                                >>
                                >he
                                >
                                >
                                >>was told that he can wear it any time he serves.
                                >>
                                >>This is what I love about Orthodoxy: diversity in practices but
                                >>
                                >>
                                >unity
                                >
                                >
                                >>in faith!
                                >>
                                >>Deacon Michael
                                >>
                                >>Reader Timothy Tadros wrote:
                                >>
                                >>
                                >>
                                >>> Dear Father Deacon Michael,
                                >>> In my experience for example in the Antiochian Arch. acolyts,
                                >>>sub-deacons altar boys can touch just about anything even intone
                                >>>ektenia.
                                >>> In the Russian Church they are much more stricter on who may
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >touch
                                >
                                >
                                >>>the altar. Tonsured Sub-deacons are allowed to touch the Altar
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >they
                                >
                                >
                                >>>can even go thru the Royal Doors with the bishop when present.
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >They
                                >
                                >
                                >>>can take off from the Altar the dikyri and trikyri, the bishops
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >mitre
                                >
                                >
                                >>>for example. They can circumvent around the Altar when the bishop
                                >>>censes standing in front, behind and the sides. They can help
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >devest
                                >
                                >
                                >>>the Altar of coverings with the help of a priest or deacon and
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >must
                                >
                                >
                                >>>be fully vested. Those acolyts, readers, and young men who are
                                >>>blessed to wear the orarion usually are only for that parish and
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >it
                                >
                                >
                                >>>dosen't mean they wear the orarion at every service when the
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >bishop
                                >
                                >
                                >>>is not there.
                                >>> Rdr Timothy Tadros
                                >>>
                                >>>--- In orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com, Deacon Michael Bishop
                                >>><Photo@> wrote:
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>>Dear Subdeacon Joseph,
                                >>>>
                                >>>>You just expressed my sentiment also. My problem was compounded
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >by
                                >
                                >
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>the
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>>fact that I was a Subdeacon but my title was Reader because I was
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>not
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>>ordained a Subdeacon. I was tonsured a Reader and immediately
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>vested as
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>>a Subdeacon with the rights of a Subdeacon.
                                >>>>
                                >>>>I have always been in a parish environment since being tonsured,
                                >>>>although once a month I had military duty. But then I still
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >could
                                >
                                >
                                >>>>attend Vespers/Vigil on Saturday evening.
                                >>>>
                                >>>>I definitely noticed that most priests did not know what to do
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >with
                                >
                                >
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>me.
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>>Now that problem is history for me, but it is something that I
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>still
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>>want to resolve. I saw one Subdeacon touching the side altar at
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >a
                                >
                                >
                                >>>>cathedral and the Protodeacon jumped all over him. I don't think
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>that
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>>he realized that it was a side altar. This was on Bright
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>Saturday. I
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>>was walking through the Royal Doors until somebody came up to me
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>and
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>>said don't do it again. I really did not know if I should or
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>should not
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>>but when I saw somebody else do it, I did.
                                >>>>
                                >>>>As a Subdeacon I did whatever was the local custom. On several
                                >>>>occasions when serving with the Bishop, I cross in front of the
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>Holy
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>>Table and on one occasion I actually went through the Royal
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >Doors.
                                >
                                >
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>My
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>>last hiearchial Divine Liturgy before my ordination I carried the
                                >>>>trikiri and did both at the instructions of the Bishop. This was
                                >>>>Antiochian practice.
                                >>>>
                                >>>>I would love to see a standard for the minor orders. I would
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >love
                                >
                                >
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>to
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>>see some requirements for them and some standard pratice. I was
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >a
                                >
                                >
                                >>>>Reader for six months before I had a cassock. It was only in
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >time
                                >
                                >
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>that
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>>I learned that I am supposed to have one. My priest gave me his
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>old
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>>cassock that he wore in the seminary. It was the Roman Catholic
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>style
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>>[at the time they cost $30 and an Orthodox cassock was $150]. I
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>would
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>>tell people that "this was Fr. Constantine's cassock when he was
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >at
                                >
                                >
                                >>>>Immaculate Conception Orthodox Seminary." Very few people
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >believed
                                >
                                >
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>me,
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>>thank God.
                                >>>>
                                >>>>When are Readers supposed to wear a cassock? How about
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>Subdeacons? My
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>>former pastor told me to wear mine any time that I am at a church
                                >>>>function, including the Greek Festival. I did. The first time
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >my
                                >
                                >
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>meal
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>>and my driver's meal were free. I wore my cassock during
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>conferences
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>>and no Bishop ever said a word to me. Earlier this year months
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>before
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>>the date of my ordination was announced, I was at the Parish Life
                                >>>>Conference and taking a picture of a meeting and Bishop Thomas
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >had
                                >
                                >
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>me
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>>tell the kids in the room my name. When I did, he said, "See,
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>we're are
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>>cousins. I am Bishop Thomas and he is Michael Bishop." All the
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>kids
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>>loved that.
                                >>>>
                                >>>>Deacon Michael
                                >>>>
                                >>>>Joseph wrote:
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>>>Dear Father Deacon Michael,
                                >>>>>I was tonsured a reader and immediately ordained a subdeacon
                                >>>>>afterwards in the ACROD. Afterwards I was accepted into ROCOR.
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>
                                >I
                                >
                                >
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>
                                >>>am
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>>>also in the Navy so, unfortunately, have not been able to serve
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>
                                >in
                                >
                                >
                                >>>>>one church regularly due to traveling and such. Since ordained,
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>
                                >I
                                >
                                >
                                >>>>>have mostly been an Orthodox layleader and had reader services
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>
                                >on
                                >
                                >
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>
                                >>>the
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>>>ships I have been on. Every chance I get, I try and visit (or
                                >>>>>attend) any Orthodox Church I am near, and to be honest, most
                                >>>>>churches (or priests) that I have had contact with, don't know
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>
                                >>>what
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>>>to do with a subdeacon. Nor what capacity they may fill. I
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>
                                >have
                                >
                                >
                                >>>>>noted also, depending on the jurisdiction, some subdeacons are
                                >>>>>ordained, while some are blessed by the bishop. Some are
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>
                                >>>teenagers.
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>>>I have had some ask me if I can touch the Alter, others wanting
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>
                                >me
                                >
                                >
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>
                                >>>to
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>>>cense. I declined on both. In ACROD they refer to the
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>
                                >subdeacon
                                >
                                >
                                >>>>>and "Father Subdeacon" and in others "subdeacon". I'm sure that
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>
                                >>>you
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>>>have had similar run-ins. I must say that I feel that I do get
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>
                                >>>much
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>>>more respect and dignity than I deserve. My only wish is that
                                >>>>>Orthodoxy as a whole would use / standardize the lower clergy
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>
                                >much
                                >
                                >
                                >>>>>more than I personally have seen. Just my take on things.
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>in Christ,
                                >>>>>sdcn joseph
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>BTW, I love your web site!!!
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>--- In orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com, "Deacon Michael Bishop"
                                >>>>><Photo@> wrote:
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>>Apparently there has been no activity on this list. What a
                                >>>>>>
                                >>>>>>
                                >shame!
                                >
                                >
                                >>>>>>Although I am now a Deacon, I am still very interested in the
                                >>>>>>
                                >>>>>>
                                >>>>>>
                                >>>>>>
                                >>>role
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>>>>
                                >>>>>>
                                >>>>>>
                                >>>>>>
                                >>>>>>
                                >>>>>>
                                >>>>>of
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>>the Reader and of the Subdeacon and I strongly believe that
                                >>>>>>
                                >>>>>>
                                >these
                                >
                                >
                                >>>>>>orders should be given much more respect and dignity than they
                                >>>>>>
                                >>>>>>
                                >>>>>>
                                >>>>>>
                                >>>>>>
                                >>>>>>
                                >>>>>receive.
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>>One day I hope to revisit my thesis for my MDiv degree and add
                                >>>>>>
                                >>>>>>
                                >>>>>>
                                >>>>>>
                                >>>much
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>>>>more information. Currently I am reading "The Great Entrance"
                                >>>>>>
                                >>>>>>
                                >by
                                >
                                >
                                >>>>>>
                                >>>>>>
                                >>>>>>
                                >>>>>>
                                >>>>>>
                                >>>>>>
                                >>>>>Fr.
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>>Robert Taft, but so far I have not seen any refences to Readers
                                >>>>>>
                                >>>>>>
                                >or
                                >
                                >
                                >>>>>>Subdeacons.
                                >>>>>>
                                >>>>>>If anybody has any information which he thinks might interest
                                >>>>>>
                                >>>>>>
                                >me,
                                >
                                >
                                >>>>>>please feel free to e-mail it to me at Deacon@ .
                                >>>>>>
                                >>>>>>Thank you.
                                >>>>>>
                                >>>>>>Deacon Michael
                                >>>>>>
                                >>>>>>
                                >>>>>>
                                >>>>>>
                                >>>>>>
                                >>>>>>
                                >>>>>>
                                >>>>>To learn more about reader services, see:
                                >>>>>http://pages.prodigy.net/frjohnwhiteford/horologion.htm
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>To access this lists archives, go to:
                                >>>>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
                                >>>>>ogion.htm
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>To access this lists archives, go to:
                                >>>>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>--
                                >>>>Deacon Michael Bishop
                                >>>>570 Saint Mary St
                                >>>>Baltimore MD 21201-1936
                                >>>>410-225-7743
                                >>>>
                                >>>>http://www.Michael-Bishop.com
                                >>>>
                                >>>>See you at the Russian Festival
                                >>>>1723 Fairmount Avenue * Baltimore MD 21231
                                >>>>17-19 October 2008
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>To learn more about reader services, see:
                                >>>http://pages.prodigy.net/frjohnwhiteford/horologion.htm
                                >>>
                                >>>To access this lists archives, go to:
                                >>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
                                >>>ogion.htm
                                >>>
                                >>>To access this lists archives, go to:
                                >>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
                                >>>
                                >>>Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>--
                                >>Deacon Michael Bishop
                                >>570 Saint Mary St
                                >>Baltimore MD 21201-1936
                                >>410-225-7743
                                >>
                                >>http://www.Michael-Bishop.com
                                >>
                                >>See you at the Russian Festival
                                >>1723 Fairmount Avenue * Baltimore MD 21231
                                >>17-19 October 2008
                                >>
                                >>
                                >>--
                                >>Deacon Michael Bishop
                                >>570 Saint Mary St
                                >>Baltimore MD 21201-1936
                                >>410-225-7743
                                >>
                                >>http://www.Michael-Bishop.com
                                >>
                                >>See you at the Russian Festival
                                >>1723 Fairmount Avenue * Baltimore MD 21231
                                >>17-19 October 2008
                                >>
                                >>
                                >>
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >To learn more about reader services, see:
                                >http://pages.prodigy.net/frjohnwhiteford/horologion.htm
                                >
                                >To access this lists archives, go to:
                                >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
                                >ogion.htm
                                >
                                >To access this lists archives, go to:
                                >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
                                >
                                >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >

                                --
                                Deacon Michael Bishop
                                570 Saint Mary St
                                Baltimore MD 21201-1936
                                410-225-7743

                                http://www.Michael-Bishop.com

                                See you at the Russian Festival
                                1723 Fairmount Avenue * Baltimore MD 21231
                                17-19 October 2008
                              • Joseph
                                Dear Father Deacon Michael, I was told the same about wearing of my podryasnik. My priest encouraged the subdeacons to wear them at all church functions(at
                                Message 15 of 30 , Nov 7, 2007
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Dear Father Deacon Michael,
                                  I was told the same about wearing of my podryasnik. My priest
                                  encouraged the subdeacons to wear them at all church functions(at
                                  church or in town). We were not allowed to touch the alter, cense,
                                  or read the litanys. We read the hours prior to Liturgy and also
                                  read the epistle. Other than that, we taught and helped the alter
                                  servers.

                                  in Christ
                                  sdcn joseph
                                  --- In orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com, Deacon Michael Bishop
                                  <Photo@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Dear Subdeacon Joseph,
                                  >
                                  > You just expressed my sentiment also. My problem was compounded by
                                  the
                                  > fact that I was a Subdeacon but my title was Reader because I was
                                  not
                                  > ordained a Subdeacon. I was tonsured a Reader and immediately
                                  vested as
                                  > a Subdeacon with the rights of a Subdeacon.
                                  >
                                  > I have always been in a parish environment since being tonsured,
                                  > although once a month I had military duty. But then I still could
                                  > attend Vespers/Vigil on Saturday evening.
                                  >
                                  > I definitely noticed that most priests did not know what to do with
                                  me.
                                  > Now that problem is history for me, but it is something that I
                                  still
                                  > want to resolve. I saw one Subdeacon touching the side altar at a
                                  > cathedral and the Protodeacon jumped all over him. I don't think
                                  that
                                  > he realized that it was a side altar. This was on Bright
                                  Saturday. I
                                  > was walking through the Royal Doors until somebody came up to me
                                  and
                                  > said don't do it again. I really did not know if I should or
                                  should not
                                  > but when I saw somebody else do it, I did.
                                  >
                                  > As a Subdeacon I did whatever was the local custom. On several
                                  > occasions when serving with the Bishop, I cross in front of the
                                  Holy
                                  > Table and on one occasion I actually went through the Royal Doors.
                                  My
                                  > last hiearchial Divine Liturgy before my ordination I carried the
                                  > trikiri and did both at the instructions of the Bishop. This was
                                  > Antiochian practice.
                                  >
                                  > I would love to see a standard for the minor orders. I would love
                                  to
                                  > see some requirements for them and some standard pratice. I was a
                                  > Reader for six months before I had a cassock. It was only in time
                                  that
                                  > I learned that I am supposed to have one. My priest gave me his
                                  old
                                  > cassock that he wore in the seminary. It was the Roman Catholic
                                  style
                                  > [at the time they cost $30 and an Orthodox cassock was $150]. I
                                  would
                                  > tell people that "this was Fr. Constantine's cassock when he was at
                                  > Immaculate Conception Orthodox Seminary." Very few people believed
                                  me,
                                  > thank God.
                                  >
                                  > When are Readers supposed to wear a cassock? How about
                                  Subdeacons? My
                                  > former pastor told me to wear mine any time that I am at a church
                                  > function, including the Greek Festival. I did. The first time my
                                  meal
                                  > and my driver's meal were free. I wore my cassock during
                                  conferences
                                  > and no Bishop ever said a word to me. Earlier this year months
                                  before
                                  > the date of my ordination was announced, I was at the Parish Life
                                  > Conference and taking a picture of a meeting and Bishop Thomas had
                                  me
                                  > tell the kids in the room my name. When I did, he said, "See,
                                  we're are
                                  > cousins. I am Bishop Thomas and he is Michael Bishop." All the
                                  kids
                                  > loved that.
                                  >
                                  > Deacon Michael
                                  >
                                  > Joseph wrote:
                                  >
                                  > >Dear Father Deacon Michael,
                                  > > I was tonsured a reader and immediately ordained a subdeacon
                                  > >afterwards in the ACROD. Afterwards I was accepted into ROCOR. I
                                  am
                                  > >also in the Navy so, unfortunately, have not been able to serve in
                                  > >one church regularly due to traveling and such. Since ordained, I
                                  > >have mostly been an Orthodox layleader and had reader services on
                                  the
                                  > >ships I have been on. Every chance I get, I try and visit (or
                                  > >attend) any Orthodox Church I am near, and to be honest, most
                                  > >churches (or priests) that I have had contact with, don't know
                                  what
                                  > >to do with a subdeacon. Nor what capacity they may fill. I have
                                  > >noted also, depending on the jurisdiction, some subdeacons are
                                  > >ordained, while some are blessed by the bishop. Some are
                                  teenagers.
                                  > >I have had some ask me if I can touch the Alter, others wanting me
                                  to
                                  > >cense. I declined on both. In ACROD they refer to the subdeacon
                                  > >and "Father Subdeacon" and in others "subdeacon". I'm sure that
                                  you
                                  > >have had similar run-ins. I must say that I feel that I do get
                                  much
                                  > >more respect and dignity than I deserve. My only wish is that
                                  > >Orthodoxy as a whole would use / standardize the lower clergy much
                                  > >more than I personally have seen. Just my take on things.
                                  > >
                                  > >in Christ,
                                  > >sdcn joseph
                                  > >
                                  > >BTW, I love your web site!!!
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >--- In orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com, "Deacon Michael Bishop"
                                  > ><Photo@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >>Apparently there has been no activity on this list. What a shame!
                                  > >>
                                  > >>Although I am now a Deacon, I am still very interested in the
                                  role
                                  > >>
                                  > >>
                                  > >of
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >>the Reader and of the Subdeacon and I strongly believe that these
                                  > >>orders should be given much more respect and dignity than they
                                  > >>
                                  > >>
                                  > >receive.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >>One day I hope to revisit my thesis for my MDiv degree and add
                                  much
                                  > >>more information. Currently I am reading "The Great Entrance" by
                                  > >>
                                  > >>
                                  > >Fr.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >>Robert Taft, but so far I have not seen any refences to Readers or
                                  > >>Subdeacons.
                                  > >>
                                  > >>If anybody has any information which he thinks might interest me,
                                  > >>please feel free to e-mail it to me at Deacon@ .
                                  > >>
                                  > >>Thank you.
                                  > >>
                                  > >>Deacon Michael
                                  > >>
                                  > >>
                                  > >>
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >To learn more about reader services, see:
                                  > >http://pages.prodigy.net/frjohnwhiteford/horologion.htm
                                  > >
                                  > >To access this lists archives, go to:
                                  > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
                                  > >ogion.htm
                                  > >
                                  > >To access this lists archives, go to:
                                  > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
                                  > >
                                  > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  > --
                                  > Deacon Michael Bishop
                                  > 570 Saint Mary St
                                  > Baltimore MD 21201-1936
                                  > 410-225-7743
                                  >
                                  > http://www.Michael-Bishop.com
                                  >
                                  > See you at the Russian Festival
                                  > 1723 Fairmount Avenue * Baltimore MD 21231
                                  > 17-19 October 2008
                                  >
                                • Joseph
                                  Reader Timothy, Could that be only with the blessing of a Bishop? As a Subdeacon in my old ROCOR parish, we did not have a bishop around to much, us
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Nov 7, 2007
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Reader Timothy,
                                    Could that be only with the blessing of a Bishop? As a Subdeacon
                                    in my old ROCOR parish, we did not have a bishop around to much, us
                                    subdeacons could not touch the alter or pass in front. Maybe serving
                                    a bishop was the key???? Don't know.

                                    in Christ
                                    sdcn joseph
                                    --- In orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com, "Reader Timothy Tadros"
                                    <pravoslavney@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Dear Father Deacon Michael,
                                    > In my experience for example in the Antiochian Arch. acolyts,
                                    > sub-deacons altar boys can touch just about anything even intone
                                    > ektenia.
                                    > In the Russian Church they are much more stricter on who may
                                    touch
                                    > the altar. Tonsured Sub-deacons are allowed to touch the Altar they
                                    > can even go thru the Royal Doors with the bishop when present. They
                                    > can take off from the Altar the dikyri and trikyri, the bishops
                                    mitre
                                    > for example. They can circumvent around the Altar when the bishop
                                    > censes standing in front, behind and the sides. They can help
                                    devest
                                    > the Altar of coverings with the help of a priest or deacon and must
                                    > be fully vested. Those acolyts, readers, and young men who are
                                    > blessed to wear the orarion usually are only for that parish and it
                                    > dosen't mean they wear the orarion at every service when the bishop
                                    > is not there.
                                    > Rdr Timothy Tadros
                                    >
                                    > --- In orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com, Deacon Michael Bishop
                                    > <Photo@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Dear Subdeacon Joseph,
                                    > >
                                    > > You just expressed my sentiment also. My problem was compounded
                                    by
                                    > the
                                    > > fact that I was a Subdeacon but my title was Reader because I was
                                    > not
                                    > > ordained a Subdeacon. I was tonsured a Reader and immediately
                                    > vested as
                                    > > a Subdeacon with the rights of a Subdeacon.
                                    > >
                                    > > I have always been in a parish environment since being tonsured,
                                    > > although once a month I had military duty. But then I still
                                    could
                                    > > attend Vespers/Vigil on Saturday evening.
                                    > >
                                    > > I definitely noticed that most priests did not know what to do
                                    with
                                    > me.
                                    > > Now that problem is history for me, but it is something that I
                                    > still
                                    > > want to resolve. I saw one Subdeacon touching the side altar at
                                    a
                                    > > cathedral and the Protodeacon jumped all over him. I don't think
                                    > that
                                    > > he realized that it was a side altar. This was on Bright
                                    > Saturday. I
                                    > > was walking through the Royal Doors until somebody came up to me
                                    > and
                                    > > said don't do it again. I really did not know if I should or
                                    > should not
                                    > > but when I saw somebody else do it, I did.
                                    > >
                                    > > As a Subdeacon I did whatever was the local custom. On several
                                    > > occasions when serving with the Bishop, I cross in front of the
                                    > Holy
                                    > > Table and on one occasion I actually went through the Royal
                                    Doors.
                                    > My
                                    > > last hiearchial Divine Liturgy before my ordination I carried the
                                    > > trikiri and did both at the instructions of the Bishop. This was
                                    > > Antiochian practice.
                                    > >
                                    > > I would love to see a standard for the minor orders. I would
                                    love
                                    > to
                                    > > see some requirements for them and some standard pratice. I was
                                    a
                                    > > Reader for six months before I had a cassock. It was only in
                                    time
                                    > that
                                    > > I learned that I am supposed to have one. My priest gave me his
                                    > old
                                    > > cassock that he wore in the seminary. It was the Roman Catholic
                                    > style
                                    > > [at the time they cost $30 and an Orthodox cassock was $150]. I
                                    > would
                                    > > tell people that "this was Fr. Constantine's cassock when he was
                                    at
                                    > > Immaculate Conception Orthodox Seminary." Very few people
                                    believed
                                    > me,
                                    > > thank God.
                                    > >
                                    > > When are Readers supposed to wear a cassock? How about
                                    > Subdeacons? My
                                    > > former pastor told me to wear mine any time that I am at a church
                                    > > function, including the Greek Festival. I did. The first time
                                    my
                                    > meal
                                    > > and my driver's meal were free. I wore my cassock during
                                    > conferences
                                    > > and no Bishop ever said a word to me. Earlier this year months
                                    > before
                                    > > the date of my ordination was announced, I was at the Parish Life
                                    > > Conference and taking a picture of a meeting and Bishop Thomas
                                    had
                                    > me
                                    > > tell the kids in the room my name. When I did, he said, "See,
                                    > we're are
                                    > > cousins. I am Bishop Thomas and he is Michael Bishop." All the
                                    > kids
                                    > > loved that.
                                    > >
                                    > > Deacon Michael
                                    > >
                                    > > Joseph wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > >Dear Father Deacon Michael,
                                    > > > I was tonsured a reader and immediately ordained a subdeacon
                                    > > >afterwards in the ACROD. Afterwards I was accepted into ROCOR.
                                    I
                                    > am
                                    > > >also in the Navy so, unfortunately, have not been able to serve
                                    in
                                    > > >one church regularly due to traveling and such. Since ordained,
                                    I
                                    > > >have mostly been an Orthodox layleader and had reader services
                                    on
                                    > the
                                    > > >ships I have been on. Every chance I get, I try and visit (or
                                    > > >attend) any Orthodox Church I am near, and to be honest, most
                                    > > >churches (or priests) that I have had contact with, don't know
                                    > what
                                    > > >to do with a subdeacon. Nor what capacity they may fill. I
                                    have
                                    > > >noted also, depending on the jurisdiction, some subdeacons are
                                    > > >ordained, while some are blessed by the bishop. Some are
                                    > teenagers.
                                    > > >I have had some ask me if I can touch the Alter, others wanting
                                    me
                                    > to
                                    > > >cense. I declined on both. In ACROD they refer to the
                                    subdeacon
                                    > > >and "Father Subdeacon" and in others "subdeacon". I'm sure that
                                    > you
                                    > > >have had similar run-ins. I must say that I feel that I do get
                                    > much
                                    > > >more respect and dignity than I deserve. My only wish is that
                                    > > >Orthodoxy as a whole would use / standardize the lower clergy
                                    much
                                    > > >more than I personally have seen. Just my take on things.
                                    > > >
                                    > > >in Christ,
                                    > > >sdcn joseph
                                    > > >
                                    > > >BTW, I love your web site!!!
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >--- In orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com, "Deacon Michael Bishop"
                                    > > ><Photo@> wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >>Apparently there has been no activity on this list. What a
                                    shame!
                                    > > >>
                                    > > >>Although I am now a Deacon, I am still very interested in the
                                    > role
                                    > > >>
                                    > > >>
                                    > > >of
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >>the Reader and of the Subdeacon and I strongly believe that
                                    these
                                    > > >>orders should be given much more respect and dignity than they
                                    > > >>
                                    > > >>
                                    > > >receive.
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >>One day I hope to revisit my thesis for my MDiv degree and add
                                    > much
                                    > > >>more information. Currently I am reading "The Great Entrance"
                                    by
                                    > > >>
                                    > > >>
                                    > > >Fr.
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >>Robert Taft, but so far I have not seen any refences to Readers
                                    or
                                    > > >>Subdeacons.
                                    > > >>
                                    > > >>If anybody has any information which he thinks might interest
                                    me,
                                    > > >>please feel free to e-mail it to me at Deacon@ .
                                    > > >>
                                    > > >>Thank you.
                                    > > >>
                                    > > >>Deacon Michael
                                    > > >>
                                    > > >>
                                    > > >>
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >To learn more about reader services, see:
                                    > > >http://pages.prodigy.net/frjohnwhiteford/horologion.htm
                                    > > >
                                    > > >To access this lists archives, go to:
                                    > > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
                                    > > >ogion.htm
                                    > > >
                                    > > >To access this lists archives, go to:
                                    > > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
                                    > > >
                                    > > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    > > --
                                    > > Deacon Michael Bishop
                                    > > 570 Saint Mary St
                                    > > Baltimore MD 21201-1936
                                    > > 410-225-7743
                                    > >
                                    > > http://www.Michael-Bishop.com
                                    > >
                                    > > See you at the Russian Festival
                                    > > 1723 Fairmount Avenue * Baltimore MD 21231
                                    > > 17-19 October 2008
                                    > >
                                    >
                                  • Joseph
                                    Father Deacon Michael, As a subdeacon in ROCOR, the closest I get to touching the alter is lighting the candles. If the priest at the alter needs anything, I
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Nov 7, 2007
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Father Deacon Michael,
                                      As a subdeacon in ROCOR, the closest I get to touching the alter is
                                      lighting the candles. If the priest at the alter needs anything, I
                                      hand it to him and kiss his right hand. Also I believe that only
                                      deacons, or priests in the absents of a Deacon can do the litanies.
                                      Of coarse, this is my experience in ROCOR, Im sure other
                                      jurisdictions differ.

                                      in Christ
                                      sdcn joseph

                                      --- In orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com, Deacon Michael Bishop
                                      <Photo@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Dear Reader Andreas,
                                      >
                                      > Thank God that the subdeacon is still serving.
                                      >
                                      > Come to think of it, I have only see subdeacons doing litanies and
                                      it is
                                      > my understanding that this was done so that people would hear some
                                      > English in the Liturgy. If I am wrong, I hope that somebody will
                                      > correct me.
                                      >
                                      > I have seen altar servers put things on the altar and take things
                                      off in
                                      > Greek churches. Whether or not this is the standard, I cannot
                                      say. I
                                      > can only report what I have seen. I personally do not like that
                                      practice.
                                      >
                                      > Earlier today in a post I mentioned that before I was ordained a
                                      deacon
                                      > on several occasions I have walked across the front of the Altar
                                      while
                                      > serving with a bishop. This is definitely prohibited in the
                                      Russian
                                      > practice and I suspect that it is also prohibited in Greek
                                      practice.
                                      > The times that I did it was when serving with Antiochian bishops
                                      and one
                                      > of those times was in a Greek church.
                                      >
                                      > Before the Liturgy the bishop was giving some instructions to us
                                      > subdeacons: his godson and me. He told us that when he censes the
                                      > Altar at the Trisagion and Cherubim Hymns, we had a choice. We
                                      could
                                      > exit the north door and come back in through the south door and
                                      just go
                                      > across the front of the Altar. Before he told us this he told me
                                      that
                                      > the last time I served with him he was surprised that I used the
                                      > deacons' doors instead of just going across the front of the
                                      Altar.
                                      > Being from the Russian practice, there was never a question in my
                                      mind
                                      > that I use the doors. Since he gave us the option, Daniel and I
                                      both
                                      > selected to go across the front of the Altar. We figured that we
                                      might
                                      > never have the chance again.
                                      >
                                      > On the day of my ordination one of the subdeacons told me that
                                      although
                                      > they tell the person being ordained what to do, some still mess up
                                      > royally. They are so nervous. I was as calm as a cucumber. First
                                      of
                                      > all, there were prayers all over the world for me that day.
                                      Second, I
                                      > have helped ordained enough deacons to know what to do, but it is
                                      easier
                                      > to tell somebody than to do it yourself. Finally, I have done most
                                      of
                                      > these things in the past, so it was not really a big deal any
                                      longer.
                                      > The ice has been broken and it was much easier for me to do what I
                                      am
                                      > surposed to do. The only thing that I did not know was what to
                                      kiss
                                      > when I prostrated in front of the altar and I also did not know how
                                      to
                                      > place my hands on the altar. I knew to go down on one knee because
                                      I
                                      > used that term many times in the past.
                                      >
                                      > Before I went to the seminary I was one of Metropolitan Theodosius'
                                      > "Roving Subdeacons." Yaroslav, Larry, and I would go around the
                                      Diocese
                                      > of Washington and serve with him. This is also why I have my own
                                      > vestments. The problem is that I did not have cuffs made when I
                                      ordered
                                      > the vestments. So some of my vestments do not have cuffs today.
                                      One of
                                      > my white robes has nothing to go with it, not even a stole. But I
                                      have
                                      > a red stole and matching cuffs which I wear with other colors.
                                      We're
                                      > trying to work on that now.
                                      >
                                      > Deacon Michael
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Rd. Andreas MacLean wrote:
                                      >
                                      > >How sad that this protodeacon felt it necessary to give an altar
                                      server a
                                      > >"royal chewing out" - let's pray that the subdeacon wasn't so
                                      discouraged
                                      > >that he left serving the altar. Nothing is as discouraging to see,
                                      and
                                      > >lacking in humility, than when a more senior cleric takes an
                                      abusive tone
                                      > >towards those beneath him. A lot of the problems we face in our
                                      Holy
                                      > >Orthodox Church are from those who may be grounded in academic
                                      Orthodoxy,
                                      > >but lack Phronyma and Orthopraxy. The correct attitude for this
                                      protodeacon
                                      > >should have been: "how did I go wrong, that this misguided
                                      subdeacon felt it
                                      > >necessary to touch a Holy Table. I am the greatest sinner, let me
                                      beg
                                      > >forgiveness from this subdeacon for being a poor example."
                                      > >
                                      > >Knowing rubrics and service book instructions can never make up
                                      for having
                                      > >an Orthodox heart and mind and spirit directed by the Gospels, the
                                      Rudder,
                                      > >the Fathers and a well-grounded spiritual father. We should gently
                                      encourage
                                      > >others when they are mistaken, not unduly criticize them.
                                      > >
                                      > >BTW, it is NOT Greek tradition for altar servers to touch the Holy
                                      Table nor
                                      > >may anyone but a deacon or priest intone litanies. I was aware of
                                      only
                                      > >Antiochians doing this - and I thought they were finally stopping
                                      this.
                                      > >
                                      > >In Christ,
                                      > >Reader Andreas
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >On 11/5/07, Deacon Michael Bishop <Photo@...> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >> Here is where part of the problem lies. Reader Timothy and I
                                      both have
                                      > >>served in the Antiochian Archdiocese and I have served in the OCA
                                      and in
                                      > >>the MP. I have also served in other jurisdictions, but that is
                                      another
                                      > >>story.
                                      > >>
                                      > >>It is my understanding that only an ordained subdeacon can intone
                                      > >>litanies. That is why I never did it except for two priests. In
                                      the
                                      > >>Greek tradition apparently any altar server can touch the Altar
                                      and this
                                      > >>might be true in the Antiochian tradition, but I have not see it.
                                      > >>
                                      > >>In my experience the subdeacons can fetch and place the trikiri
                                      and
                                      > >>dikiri on the altar. That is the only thing some places. A year
                                      ago I
                                      > >>witnessed a subdeacon receiving a royal chewing out by a
                                      protodeacon
                                      > >>because he touched a side altar at a cathedral. He did not
                                      realize that
                                      > >>it was an altar.
                                      > >>
                                      > >>I have never seen a subdeacon circumvent around the consecrated
                                      altar in
                                      > >>a Russian church. I mentioned to some people that I have done it
                                      before
                                      > >>being ordained a deacon and they are shocked. When Daniel Manzuk
                                      and I
                                      > >>served with his godfather (Bishop Basil), he told us that we had a
                                      > >>choice. We could walk across the altar or go through the deacon's
                                      doors
                                      > >>during the censing. We selected the former.
                                      > >>
                                      > >>When Philip was vested with the orarion by Metropolitan
                                      Theodosius, he
                                      > >>was told that he can wear it any time he serves.
                                      > >>
                                      > >>This is what I love about Orthodoxy: diversity in practices but
                                      unity
                                      > >>in faith!
                                      > >>
                                      > >>Deacon Michael
                                      > >>
                                      > >>Reader Timothy Tadros wrote:
                                      > >>
                                      > >>
                                      > >>
                                      > >>>Dear Father Deacon Michael,
                                      > >>>In my experience for example in the Antiochian Arch. acolyts,
                                      > >>>sub-deacons altar boys can touch just about anything even intone
                                      > >>>ektenia.
                                      > >>>In the Russian Church they are much more stricter on who may
                                      touch
                                      > >>>the altar. Tonsured Sub-deacons are allowed to touch the Altar
                                      they
                                      > >>>can even go thru the Royal Doors with the bishop when present.
                                      They
                                      > >>>can take off from the Altar the dikyri and trikyri, the bishops
                                      mitre
                                      > >>>for example. They can circumvent around the Altar when the bishop
                                      > >>>censes standing in front, behind and the sides. They can help
                                      devest
                                      > >>>the Altar of coverings with the help of a priest or deacon and
                                      must
                                      > >>>be fully vested. Those acolyts, readers, and young men who are
                                      > >>>blessed to wear the orarion usually are only for that parish and
                                      it
                                      > >>>dosen't mean they wear the orarion at every service when the
                                      bishop
                                      > >>>is not there.
                                      > >>>Rdr Timothy Tadros
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>--- In orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com<orthodox-readers%
                                      40yahoogroups.com>,
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>Deacon Michael Bishop
                                      > >>
                                      > >>
                                      > >>><Photo@> wrote:
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>>Dear Subdeacon Joseph,
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>You just expressed my sentiment also. My problem was compounded
                                      by
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>the
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>>fact that I was a Subdeacon but my title was Reader because I
                                      was
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>not
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>>ordained a Subdeacon. I was tonsured a Reader and immediately
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>vested as
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>>a Subdeacon with the rights of a Subdeacon.
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>I have always been in a parish environment since being tonsured,
                                      > >>>>although once a month I had military duty. But then I still
                                      could
                                      > >>>>attend Vespers/Vigil on Saturday evening.
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>I definitely noticed that most priests did not know what to do
                                      with
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>me.
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>>Now that problem is history for me, but it is something that I
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>still
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>>want to resolve. I saw one Subdeacon touching the side altar at
                                      a
                                      > >>>>cathedral and the Protodeacon jumped all over him. I don't think
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>that
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>>he realized that it was a side altar. This was on Bright
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>Saturday. I
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>>was walking through the Royal Doors until somebody came up to me
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>and
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>>said don't do it again. I really did not know if I should or
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>should not
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>>but when I saw somebody else do it, I did.
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>As a Subdeacon I did whatever was the local custom. On several
                                      > >>>>occasions when serving with the Bishop, I cross in front of the
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>Holy
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>>Table and on one occasion I actually went through the Royal
                                      Doors.
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>My
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>>last hiearchial Divine Liturgy before my ordination I carried
                                      the
                                      > >>>>trikiri and did both at the instructions of the Bishop. This was
                                      > >>>>Antiochian practice.
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>I would love to see a standard for the minor orders. I would
                                      love
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>to
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>>see some requirements for them and some standard pratice. I was
                                      a
                                      > >>>>Reader for six months before I had a cassock. It was only in
                                      time
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>that
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>>I learned that I am supposed to have one. My priest gave me his
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>old
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>>cassock that he wore in the seminary. It was the Roman Catholic
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>style
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>>[at the time they cost $30 and an Orthodox cassock was $150]. I
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>would
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>>tell people that "this was Fr. Constantine's cassock when he
                                      was at
                                      > >>>>Immaculate Conception Orthodox Seminary." Very few people
                                      believed
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>me,
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>>thank God.
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>When are Readers supposed to wear a cassock? How about
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>Subdeacons? My
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>>former pastor told me to wear mine any time that I am at a
                                      church
                                      > >>>>function, including the Greek Festival. I did. The first time my
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>meal
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>>and my driver's meal were free. I wore my cassock during
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>conferences
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>>and no Bishop ever said a word to me. Earlier this year months
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>before
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>>the date of my ordination was announced, I was at the Parish
                                      Life
                                      > >>>>Conference and taking a picture of a meeting and Bishop Thomas
                                      had
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>me
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>>tell the kids in the room my name. When I did, he said, "See,
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>we're are
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>>cousins. I am Bishop Thomas and he is Michael Bishop." All the
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>kids
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>>loved that.
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>Deacon Michael
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>Joseph wrote:
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>>Dear Father Deacon Michael,
                                      > >>>>>I was tonsured a reader and immediately ordained a subdeacon
                                      > >>>>>afterwards in the ACROD. Afterwards I was accepted into ROCOR.
                                      I
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>am
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>>>also in the Navy so, unfortunately, have not been able to
                                      serve in
                                      > >>>>>one church regularly due to traveling and such. Since
                                      ordained, I
                                      > >>>>>have mostly been an Orthodox layleader and had reader services
                                      on
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>the
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>>>ships I have been on. Every chance I get, I try and visit (or
                                      > >>>>>attend) any Orthodox Church I am near, and to be honest, most
                                      > >>>>>churches (or priests) that I have had contact with, don't know
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>what
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>>>to do with a subdeacon. Nor what capacity they may fill. I have
                                      > >>>>>noted also, depending on the jurisdiction, some subdeacons are
                                      > >>>>>ordained, while some are blessed by the bishop. Some are
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>teenagers.
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>>>I have had some ask me if I can touch the Alter, others
                                      wanting me
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>to
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>>>cense. I declined on both. In ACROD they refer to the subdeacon
                                      > >>>>>and "Father Subdeacon" and in others "subdeacon". I'm sure that
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>you
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>>>have had similar run-ins. I must say that I feel that I do get
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>much
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>>>more respect and dignity than I deserve. My only wish is that
                                      > >>>>>Orthodoxy as a whole would use / standardize the lower clergy
                                      much
                                      > >>>>>more than I personally have seen. Just my take on things.
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>>>in Christ,
                                      > >>>>>sdcn joseph
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>>>BTW, I love your web site!!!
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>>>--- In orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com<orthodox-readers%
                                      40yahoogroups.com>,
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>"Deacon Michael Bishop"
                                      > >>
                                      > >>
                                      > >>>>><Photo@> wrote:
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>>>>Apparently there has been no activity on this list. What a
                                      shame!
                                      > >>>>>>
                                      > >>>>>>Although I am now a Deacon, I am still very interested in the
                                      > >>>>>>
                                      > >>>>>>
                                      > >>>>>>
                                      > >>>>>>
                                      > >>>role
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>>>>
                                      > >>>>>>
                                      > >>>>>>
                                      > >>>>>>
                                      > >>>>>of
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>>>>the Reader and of the Subdeacon and I strongly believe that
                                      these
                                      > >>>>>>orders should be given much more respect and dignity than they
                                      > >>>>>>
                                      > >>>>>>
                                      > >>>>>>
                                      > >>>>>>
                                      > >>>>>>
                                      > >>>>>>
                                      > >>>>>receive.
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>>>>One day I hope to revisit my thesis for my MDiv degree and add
                                      > >>>>>>
                                      > >>>>>>
                                      > >>>>>>
                                      > >>>>>>
                                      > >>>much
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>>>>more information. Currently I am reading "The Great Entrance"
                                      by
                                      > >>>>>>
                                      > >>>>>>
                                      > >>>>>>
                                      > >>>>>>
                                      > >>>>>>
                                      > >>>>>>
                                      > >>>>>Fr.
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>>>>Robert Taft, but so far I have not seen any refences to
                                      Readers or
                                      > >>>>>>Subdeacons.
                                      > >>>>>>
                                      > >>>>>>If anybody has any information which he thinks might interest
                                      me,
                                      > >>>>>>please feel free to e-mail it to me at Deacon@ .
                                      > >>>>>>
                                      > >>>>>>Thank you.
                                      > >>>>>>
                                      > >>>>>>Deacon Michael
                                      > >>>>>>
                                      > >>>>>>
                                      > >>>>>>
                                      > >>>>>>
                                      > >>>>>>
                                      > >>>>>>
                                      > >>>>>>
                                      > >>>>>To learn more about reader services, see:
                                      > >>>>>http://pages.prodigy.net/frjohnwhiteford/horologion.htm
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>>>To access this lists archives, go to:
                                      > >>>>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
                                      > >>>>>ogion.htm
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>>>To access this lists archives, go to:
                                      > >>>>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>>>Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>>>
                                      > >>>>--
                                      > >>>>Deacon Michael Bishop
                                      > >>>>570 Saint Mary St
                                      > >>>>Baltimore MD 21201-1936
                                      > >>>>410-225-7743
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>http://www.Michael-Bishop.com <http://www.michael-bishop.com/>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>See you at the Russian Festival
                                      > >>>>1723 Fairmount Avenue * Baltimore MD 21231
                                      > >>>>17-19 October 2008
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>To learn more about reader services, see:
                                      > >>>http://pages.prodigy.net/frjohnwhiteford/horologion.htm
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>To access this lists archives, go to:
                                      > >>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
                                      > >>>ogion.htm
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>To access this lists archives, go to:
                                      > >>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>--
                                      > >>Deacon Michael Bishop
                                      > >>570 Saint Mary St
                                      > >>Baltimore MD 21201-1936
                                      > >>410-225-7743
                                      > >>
                                      > >>http://www.Michael-Bishop.com <http://www.michael-bishop.com/>
                                      > >>
                                      > >>See you at the Russian Festival
                                      > >>1723 Fairmount Avenue * Baltimore MD 21231
                                      > >>17-19 October 2008
                                      > >>
                                      > >>--
                                      > >>Deacon Michael Bishop
                                      > >>570 Saint Mary St
                                      > >>Baltimore MD 21201-1936
                                      > >>410-225-7743
                                      > >>
                                      > >>http://www.Michael-Bishop.com <http://www.michael-bishop.com/>
                                      > >>
                                      > >>See you at the Russian Festival
                                      > >>1723 Fairmount Avenue * Baltimore MD 21231
                                      > >>17-19 October 2008
                                      > >>
                                      > >>
                                      > >>
                                      > >>
                                      > >>
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >To learn more about reader services, see:
                                      > >http://pages.prodigy.net/frjohnwhiteford/horologion.htm
                                      > >
                                      > >To access this lists archives, go to:
                                      > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
                                      > >ogion.htm
                                      > >
                                      > >To access this lists archives, go to:
                                      > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
                                      > >
                                      > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      > --
                                      > Deacon Michael Bishop
                                      > 570 Saint Mary St
                                      > Baltimore MD 21201-1936
                                      > 410-225-7743
                                      >
                                      > http://www.Michael-Bishop.com
                                      >
                                      > See you at the Russian Festival
                                      > 1723 Fairmount Avenue * Baltimore MD 21231
                                      > 17-19 October 2008
                                      >
                                    • Deacon Michael Bishop
                                      This has also been my experience in the OCA and MP. In the Antiochian Archdiocese subdeacons do litanies in the absence of a deacon. The point that I was
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Nov 7, 2007
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        This has also been my experience in the OCA and MP. In the Antiochian
                                        Archdiocese subdeacons do litanies in the absence of a deacon. The
                                        point that I was making earlier, and Reader Andreas picked up on it, was
                                        that subdeacons do not touch the Altar in the Russian practice. It was
                                        unfortunate that the protodeacon really chewed out the subdeacon because
                                        he did not realize that this was an Altar. I guess that I realized that
                                        it was an Altar when I noticed a priest hearing the confession of
                                        another priest there.

                                        Minutes after I was ordained, one of the altar servers (notice, I did
                                        not say altar boys) noticed that the veil was crooked on the Altar and
                                        he asked me to straighten it since I am now a deacon. It was one of the
                                        doses of reality that I received that day. Another dose was near
                                        Communion when Fr. Alexander told me, "Go stand behind the Altar,
                                        Father." He emphasized the word "Father."

                                        Deacon Michael

                                        Joseph wrote:

                                        >Father Deacon Michael,
                                        > As a subdeacon in ROCOR, the closest I get to touching the alter is
                                        >lighting the candles. If the priest at the alter needs anything, I
                                        >hand it to him and kiss his right hand. Also I believe that only
                                        >deacons, or priests in the absents of a Deacon can do the litanies.
                                        >Of coarse, this is my experience in ROCOR, Im sure other
                                        >jurisdictions differ.
                                        >
                                        >in Christ
                                        >sdcn joseph
                                        >
                                        >--- In orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com, Deacon Michael Bishop
                                        ><Photo@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>Dear Reader Andreas,
                                        >>
                                        >>Thank God that the subdeacon is still serving.
                                        >>
                                        >>Come to think of it, I have only see subdeacons doing litanies and
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >it is
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>my understanding that this was done so that people would hear some
                                        >>English in the Liturgy. If I am wrong, I hope that somebody will
                                        >>correct me.
                                        >>
                                        >>I have seen altar servers put things on the altar and take things
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >off in
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>Greek churches. Whether or not this is the standard, I cannot
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >say. I
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>can only report what I have seen. I personally do not like that
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >practice.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>Earlier today in a post I mentioned that before I was ordained a
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >deacon
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>on several occasions I have walked across the front of the Altar
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >while
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>serving with a bishop. This is definitely prohibited in the
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >Russian
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>practice and I suspect that it is also prohibited in Greek
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >practice.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>The times that I did it was when serving with Antiochian bishops
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >and one
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>of those times was in a Greek church.
                                        >>
                                        >>Before the Liturgy the bishop was giving some instructions to us
                                        >>subdeacons: his godson and me. He told us that when he censes the
                                        >>Altar at the Trisagion and Cherubim Hymns, we had a choice. We
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >could
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>exit the north door and come back in through the south door and
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >just go
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>across the front of the Altar. Before he told us this he told me
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >that
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>the last time I served with him he was surprised that I used the
                                        >>deacons' doors instead of just going across the front of the
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >Altar.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>Being from the Russian practice, there was never a question in my
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >mind
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>that I use the doors. Since he gave us the option, Daniel and I
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >both
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>selected to go across the front of the Altar. We figured that we
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >might
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>never have the chance again.
                                        >>
                                        >>On the day of my ordination one of the subdeacons told me that
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >although
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>they tell the person being ordained what to do, some still mess up
                                        >>royally. They are so nervous. I was as calm as a cucumber. First
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >of
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>all, there were prayers all over the world for me that day.
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >Second, I
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>have helped ordained enough deacons to know what to do, but it is
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >easier
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>to tell somebody than to do it yourself. Finally, I have done most
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >of
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>these things in the past, so it was not really a big deal any
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >longer.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>The ice has been broken and it was much easier for me to do what I
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >am
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>surposed to do. The only thing that I did not know was what to
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >kiss
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>when I prostrated in front of the altar and I also did not know how
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >to
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>place my hands on the altar. I knew to go down on one knee because
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >I
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>used that term many times in the past.
                                        >>
                                        >>Before I went to the seminary I was one of Metropolitan Theodosius'
                                        >>"Roving Subdeacons." Yaroslav, Larry, and I would go around the
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >Diocese
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>of Washington and serve with him. This is also why I have my own
                                        >>vestments. The problem is that I did not have cuffs made when I
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >ordered
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>the vestments. So some of my vestments do not have cuffs today.
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >One of
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>my white robes has nothing to go with it, not even a stole. But I
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >have
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>a red stole and matching cuffs which I wear with other colors.
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >We're
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>trying to work on that now.
                                        >>
                                        >>Deacon Michael
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>Rd. Andreas MacLean wrote:
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>>How sad that this protodeacon felt it necessary to give an altar
                                        >>>
                                        >>>
                                        >server a
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>>"royal chewing out" - let's pray that the subdeacon wasn't so
                                        >>>
                                        >>>
                                        >discouraged
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>>that he left serving the altar. Nothing is as discouraging to see,
                                        >>>
                                        >>>
                                        >and
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>>lacking in humility, than when a more senior cleric takes an
                                        >>>
                                        >>>
                                        >abusive tone
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>>towards those beneath him. A lot of the problems we face in our
                                        >>>
                                        >>>
                                        >Holy
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>>Orthodox Church are from those who may be grounded in academic
                                        >>>
                                        >>>
                                        >Orthodoxy,
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>>but lack Phronyma and Orthopraxy. The correct attitude for this
                                        >>>
                                        >>>
                                        >protodeacon
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>>should have been: "how did I go wrong, that this misguided
                                        >>>
                                        >>>
                                        >subdeacon felt it
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>>necessary to touch a Holy Table. I am the greatest sinner, let me
                                        >>>
                                        >>>
                                        >beg
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>>forgiveness from this subdeacon for being a poor example."
                                        >>>
                                        >>>Knowing rubrics and service book instructions can never make up
                                        >>>
                                        >>>
                                        >for having
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>>an Orthodox heart and mind and spirit directed by the Gospels, the
                                        >>>
                                        >>>
                                        >Rudder,
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>>the Fathers and a well-grounded spiritual father. We should gently
                                        >>>
                                        >>>
                                        >encourage
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>>others when they are mistaken, not unduly criticize them.
                                        >>>
                                        >>>BTW, it is NOT Greek tradition for altar servers to touch the Holy
                                        >>>
                                        >>>
                                        >Table nor
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>>may anyone but a deacon or priest intone litanies. I was aware of
                                        >>>
                                        >>>
                                        >only
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>>Antiochians doing this - and I thought they were finally stopping
                                        >>>
                                        >>>
                                        >this.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>>In Christ,
                                        >>>Reader Andreas
                                        >>>
                                        >>>
                                        >>>On 11/5/07, Deacon Michael Bishop <Photo@...> wrote:
                                        >>>
                                        >>>
                                        >>>
                                        >>>
                                        >>>> Here is where part of the problem lies. Reader Timothy and I
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>>
                                        >both have
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>>>served in the Antiochian Archdiocese and I have served in the OCA
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>>
                                        >and in
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>>>the MP. I have also served in other jurisdictions, but that is
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>>
                                        >another
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>>>story.
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>>It is my understanding that only an ordained subdeacon can intone
                                        >>>>litanies. That is why I never did it except for two priests. In
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>>
                                        >the
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>>>Greek tradition apparently any altar server can touch the Altar
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>>
                                        >and this
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>>>might be true in the Antiochian tradition, but I have not see it.
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>>In my experience the subdeacons can fetch and place the trikiri
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>>
                                        >and
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>>>dikiri on the altar. That is the only thing some places. A year
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>>
                                        >ago I
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>>>witnessed a subdeacon receiving a royal chewing out by a
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>>
                                        >protodeacon
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>>>because he touched a side altar at a cathedral. He did not
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>>
                                        >realize that
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>>>it was an altar.
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>>I have never seen a subdeacon circumvent around the consecrated
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>>
                                        >altar in
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>>>a Russian church. I mentioned to some people that I have done it
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>>
                                        >before
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>>>being ordained a deacon and they are shocked. When Daniel Manzuk
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>>
                                        >and I
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>>>served with his godfather (Bishop Basil), he told us that we had a
                                        >>>>choice. We could walk across the altar or go through the deacon's
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>>
                                        >doors
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>>>during the censing. We selected the former.
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>>When Philip was vested with the orarion by Metropolitan
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>>
                                        >Theodosius, he
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>>>was told that he can wear it any time he serves.
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>>This is what I love about Orthodoxy: diversity in practices but
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>>
                                        >unity
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>>>in faith!
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>>Deacon Michael
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>>Reader Timothy Tadros wrote:
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>>>Dear Father Deacon Michael,
                                        >>>>>In my experience for example in the Antiochian Arch. acolyts,
                                        >>>>>sub-deacons altar boys can touch just about anything even intone
                                        >>>>>ektenia.
                                        >>>>>In the Russian Church they are much more stricter on who may
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >touch
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>>>>the altar. Tonsured Sub-deacons are allowed to touch the Altar
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >they
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>>>>can even go thru the Royal Doors with the bishop when present.
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >They
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>>>>can take off from the Altar the dikyri and trikyri, the bishops
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >mitre
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>>>>for example. They can circumvent around the Altar when the bishop
                                        >>>>>censes standing in front, behind and the sides. They can help
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >devest
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>>>>the Altar of coverings with the help of a priest or deacon and
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >must
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>>>>be fully vested. Those acolyts, readers, and young men who are
                                        >>>>>blessed to wear the orarion usually are only for that parish and
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >it
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>>>>dosen't mean they wear the orarion at every service when the
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >bishop
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>>>>is not there.
                                        >>>>>Rdr Timothy Tadros
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>--- In orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com<orthodox-readers%
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >40yahoogroups.com>,
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>Deacon Michael Bishop
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>>><Photo@> wrote:
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>>Dear Subdeacon Joseph,
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>You just expressed my sentiment also. My problem was compounded
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >by
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>the
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>>fact that I was a Subdeacon but my title was Reader because I
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >was
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>not
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>>ordained a Subdeacon. I was tonsured a Reader and immediately
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>vested as
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>>a Subdeacon with the rights of a Subdeacon.
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>I have always been in a parish environment since being tonsured,
                                        >>>>>>although once a month I had military duty. But then I still
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >could
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>>>>>attend Vespers/Vigil on Saturday evening.
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>I definitely noticed that most priests did not know what to do
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >with
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>me.
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>>Now that problem is history for me, but it is something that I
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>still
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>>want to resolve. I saw one Subdeacon touching the side altar at
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >a
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>>>>>cathedral and the Protodeacon jumped all over him. I don't think
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>that
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>>he realized that it was a side altar. This was on Bright
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>Saturday. I
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>>was walking through the Royal Doors until somebody came up to me
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>and
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>>said don't do it again. I really did not know if I should or
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>should not
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>>but when I saw somebody else do it, I did.
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>As a Subdeacon I did whatever was the local custom. On several
                                        >>>>>>occasions when serving with the Bishop, I cross in front of the
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>Holy
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>>Table and on one occasion I actually went through the Royal
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >Doors.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>My
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>>last hiearchial Divine Liturgy before my ordination I carried
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >the
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>>>>>trikiri and did both at the instructions of the Bishop. This was
                                        >>>>>>Antiochian practice.
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>I would love to see a standard for the minor orders. I would
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >love
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>to
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>>see some requirements for them and some standard pratice. I was
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >a
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>>>>>Reader for six months before I had a cassock. It was only in
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >time
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>that
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>>I learned that I am supposed to have one. My priest gave me his
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>old
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>>cassock that he wore in the seminary. It was the Roman Catholic
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>style
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>>[at the time they cost $30 and an Orthodox cassock was $150]. I
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>would
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>>tell people that "this was Fr. Constantine's cassock when he
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >was at
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>>>>>Immaculate Conception Orthodox Seminary." Very few people
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >believed
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>me,
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>>thank God.
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>When are Readers supposed to wear a cassock? How about
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>Subdeacons? My
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>>former pastor told me to wear mine any time that I am at a
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >church
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>>>>>function, including the Greek Festival. I did. The first time my
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>meal
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>>and my driver's meal were free. I wore my cassock during
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>conferences
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>>and no Bishop ever said a word to me. Earlier this year months
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>before
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>>the date of my ordination was announced, I was at the Parish
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >Life
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>>>>>Conference and taking a picture of a meeting and Bishop Thomas
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >had
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>me
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>>tell the kids in the room my name. When I did, he said, "See,
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>we're are
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>>cousins. I am Bishop Thomas and he is Michael Bishop." All the
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>kids
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>>loved that.
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>Deacon Michael
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>Joseph wrote:
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>Dear Father Deacon Michael,
                                        >>>>>>>I was tonsured a reader and immediately ordained a subdeacon
                                        >>>>>>>afterwards in the ACROD. Afterwards I was accepted into ROCOR.
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >I
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>am
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>also in the Navy so, unfortunately, have not been able to
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >serve in
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>>>>>>one church regularly due to traveling and such. Since
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >ordained, I
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>>>>>>have mostly been an Orthodox layleader and had reader services
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >on
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>the
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>ships I have been on. Every chance I get, I try and visit (or
                                        >>>>>>>attend) any Orthodox Church I am near, and to be honest, most
                                        >>>>>>>churches (or priests) that I have had contact with, don't know
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>what
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>to do with a subdeacon. Nor what capacity they may fill. I have
                                        >>>>>>>noted also, depending on the jurisdiction, some subdeacons are
                                        >>>>>>>ordained, while some are blessed by the bishop. Some are
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>teenagers.
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>I have had some ask me if I can touch the Alter, others
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >wanting me
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>to
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>cense. I declined on both. In ACROD they refer to the subdeacon
                                        >>>>>>>and "Father Subdeacon" and in others "subdeacon". I'm sure that
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>you
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>have had similar run-ins. I must say that I feel that I do get
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>much
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>more respect and dignity than I deserve. My only wish is that
                                        >>>>>>>Orthodoxy as a whole would use / standardize the lower clergy
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >much
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>>>>>>more than I personally have seen. Just my take on things.
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>in Christ,
                                        >>>>>>>sdcn joseph
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>BTW, I love your web site!!!
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>--- In orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com<orthodox-readers%
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >40yahoogroups.com>,
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>"Deacon Michael Bishop"
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>>>>><Photo@> wrote:
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>Apparently there has been no activity on this list. What a
                                        >>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>
                                        >shame!
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>>>>>>>Although I am now a Deacon, I am still very interested in the
                                        >>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>role
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>of
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>the Reader and of the Subdeacon and I strongly believe that
                                        >>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>
                                        >these
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>>>>>>>orders should be given much more respect and dignity than they
                                        >>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>receive.
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>One day I hope to revisit my thesis for my MDiv degree and add
                                        >>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>much
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>more information. Currently I am reading "The Great Entrance"
                                        >>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>
                                        >by
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>Fr.
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>Robert Taft, but so far I have not seen any refences to
                                        >>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>
                                        >Readers or
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>>>>>>>Subdeacons.
                                        >>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>If anybody has any information which he thinks might interest
                                        >>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>
                                        >me,
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>>>>>>>please feel free to e-mail it to me at Deacon@ .
                                        >>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>Thank you.
                                        >>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>Deacon Michael
                                        >>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>To learn more about reader services, see:
                                        >>>>>>>http://pages.prodigy.net/frjohnwhiteford/horologion.htm
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>To access this lists archives, go to:
                                        >>>>>>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
                                        >>>>>>>ogion.htm
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>To access this lists archives, go to:
                                        >>>>>>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>--
                                        >>>>>>Deacon Michael Bishop
                                        >>>>>>570 Saint Mary St
                                        >>>>>>Baltimore MD 21201-1936
                                        >>>>>>410-225-7743
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>http://www.Michael-Bishop.com <http://www.michael-bishop.com/>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>See you at the Russian Festival
                                        >>>>>>1723 Fairmount Avenue * Baltimore MD 21231
                                        >>>>>>17-19 October 2008
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>To learn more about reader services, see:
                                        >>>>>http://pages.prodigy.net/frjohnwhiteford/horologion.htm
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>To access this lists archives, go to:
                                        >>>>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
                                        >>>>>ogion.htm
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>To access this lists archives, go to:
                                        >>>>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>--
                                        >>>>Deacon Michael Bishop
                                        >>>>570 Saint Mary St
                                        >>>>Baltimore MD 21201-1936
                                        >>>>410-225-7743
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>>http://www.Michael-Bishop.com <http://www.michael-bishop.com/>
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>>See you at the Russian Festival
                                        >>>>1723 Fairmount Avenue * Baltimore MD 21231
                                        >>>>17-19 October 2008
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>>--
                                        >>>>Deacon Michael Bishop
                                        >>>>570 Saint Mary St
                                        >>>>Baltimore MD 21201-1936
                                        >>>>410-225-7743
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>>http://www.Michael-Bishop.com <http://www.michael-bishop.com/>
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>>See you at the Russian Festival
                                        >>>>1723 Fairmount Avenue * Baltimore MD 21231
                                        >>>>17-19 October 2008
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >>>
                                        >>>
                                        >>>
                                        >>>To learn more about reader services, see:
                                        >>>http://pages.prodigy.net/frjohnwhiteford/horologion.htm
                                        >>>
                                        >>>To access this lists archives, go to:
                                        >>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
                                        >>>ogion.htm
                                        >>>
                                        >>>To access this lists archives, go to:
                                        >>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
                                        >>>
                                        >>>Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        >>>
                                        >>>
                                        >>>
                                        >>>
                                        >>>
                                        >>>
                                        >>>
                                        >>>
                                        >>>
                                        >>--
                                        >>Deacon Michael Bishop
                                        >>570 Saint Mary St
                                        >>Baltimore MD 21201-1936
                                        >>410-225-7743
                                        >>
                                        >>http://www.Michael-Bishop.com
                                        >>
                                        >>See you at the Russian Festival
                                        >>1723 Fairmount Avenue * Baltimore MD 21231
                                        >>17-19 October 2008
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >To learn more about reader services, see:
                                        >http://pages.prodigy.net/frjohnwhiteford/horologion.htm
                                        >
                                        >To access this lists archives, go to:
                                        >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
                                        >ogion.htm
                                        >
                                        >To access this lists archives, go to:
                                        >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
                                        >
                                        >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >

                                        --
                                        Deacon Michael Bishop
                                        570 Saint Mary St
                                        Baltimore MD 21201-1936
                                        410-225-7743

                                        http://www.Michael-Bishop.com

                                        See you at the Russian Festival
                                        1723 Fairmount Avenue * Baltimore MD 21231
                                        17-19 October 2008


                                        --
                                        Deacon Michael Bishop
                                        570 Saint Mary St
                                        Baltimore MD 21201-1936
                                        410-225-7743

                                        http://www.Michael-Bishop.com

                                        See you at the Russian Festival
                                        1723 Fairmount Avenue * Baltimore MD 21231
                                        17-19 October 2008
                                      • Rd. Andreas MacLean
                                        This is the same as practice in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese. So, with the GOAA and ROCOR following traditional practices, we can say that 80-90% of the
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Nov 7, 2007
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          This is the same as practice in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese. So, with the
                                          GOAA and ROCOR following traditional practices, we can say that 80-90% of
                                          the Orthodox in America do not allow subdeacons to intone litanies or to
                                          casually touch the Holy Table.

                                          BTW, the Altar means the Holy of Holies, the sacred area behind the
                                          Iconostasion. What folks here are referring to is the Holy Table, the
                                          Trapeza, and perhaps the Table of Oblation, the Prothesis. Of course men,
                                          properly ordained and blessed, are allowed to "touch the Altar" - how else
                                          would they move around in it?

                                          In Christ,
                                          Reader Andreas


                                          On 11/7/07, Joseph <Joesamusn@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Father Deacon Michael,
                                          > As a subdeacon in ROCOR, the closest I get to touching the alter is
                                          > lighting the candles. If the priest at the alter needs anything, I
                                          > hand it to him and kiss his right hand. Also I believe that only
                                          > deacons, or priests in the absents of a Deacon can do the litanies.
                                          > Of coarse, this is my experience in ROCOR, Im sure other
                                          > jurisdictions differ.
                                          >
                                          > in Christ
                                          > sdcn joseph
                                          >
                                          > --- In orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com<orthodox-readers%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                          > Deacon Michael Bishop
                                          > <Photo@...> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > Dear Reader Andreas,
                                          > >
                                          > > Thank God that the subdeacon is still serving.
                                          > >
                                          > > Come to think of it, I have only see subdeacons doing litanies and
                                          > it is
                                          > > my understanding that this was done so that people would hear some
                                          > > English in the Liturgy. If I am wrong, I hope that somebody will
                                          > > correct me.
                                          > >
                                          > > I have seen altar servers put things on the altar and take things
                                          > off in
                                          > > Greek churches. Whether or not this is the standard, I cannot
                                          > say. I
                                          > > can only report what I have seen. I personally do not like that
                                          > practice.
                                          > >
                                          > > Earlier today in a post I mentioned that before I was ordained a
                                          > deacon
                                          > > on several occasions I have walked across the front of the Altar
                                          > while
                                          > > serving with a bishop. This is definitely prohibited in the
                                          > Russian
                                          > > practice and I suspect that it is also prohibited in Greek
                                          > practice.
                                          > > The times that I did it was when serving with Antiochian bishops
                                          > and one
                                          > > of those times was in a Greek church.
                                          > >
                                          > > Before the Liturgy the bishop was giving some instructions to us
                                          > > subdeacons: his godson and me. He told us that when he censes the
                                          > > Altar at the Trisagion and Cherubim Hymns, we had a choice. We
                                          > could
                                          > > exit the north door and come back in through the south door and
                                          > just go
                                          > > across the front of the Altar. Before he told us this he told me
                                          > that
                                          > > the last time I served with him he was surprised that I used the
                                          > > deacons' doors instead of just going across the front of the
                                          > Altar.
                                          > > Being from the Russian practice, there was never a question in my
                                          > mind
                                          > > that I use the doors. Since he gave us the option, Daniel and I
                                          > both
                                          > > selected to go across the front of the Altar. We figured that we
                                          > might
                                          > > never have the chance again.
                                          > >
                                          > > On the day of my ordination one of the subdeacons told me that
                                          > although
                                          > > they tell the person being ordained what to do, some still mess up
                                          > > royally. They are so nervous. I was as calm as a cucumber. First
                                          > of
                                          > > all, there were prayers all over the world for me that day.
                                          > Second, I
                                          > > have helped ordained enough deacons to know what to do, but it is
                                          > easier
                                          > > to tell somebody than to do it yourself. Finally, I have done most
                                          > of
                                          > > these things in the past, so it was not really a big deal any
                                          > longer.
                                          > > The ice has been broken and it was much easier for me to do what I
                                          > am
                                          > > surposed to do. The only thing that I did not know was what to
                                          > kiss
                                          > > when I prostrated in front of the altar and I also did not know how
                                          > to
                                          > > place my hands on the altar. I knew to go down on one knee because
                                          > I
                                          > > used that term many times in the past.
                                          > >
                                          > > Before I went to the seminary I was one of Metropolitan Theodosius'
                                          > > "Roving Subdeacons." Yaroslav, Larry, and I would go around the
                                          > Diocese
                                          > > of Washington and serve with him. This is also why I have my own
                                          > > vestments. The problem is that I did not have cuffs made when I
                                          > ordered
                                          > > the vestments. So some of my vestments do not have cuffs today.
                                          > One of
                                          > > my white robes has nothing to go with it, not even a stole. But I
                                          > have
                                          > > a red stole and matching cuffs which I wear with other colors.
                                          > We're
                                          > > trying to work on that now.
                                          > >
                                          > > Deacon Michael
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Rd. Andreas MacLean wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > >How sad that this protodeacon felt it necessary to give an altar
                                          > server a
                                          > > >"royal chewing out" - let's pray that the subdeacon wasn't so
                                          > discouraged
                                          > > >that he left serving the altar. Nothing is as discouraging to see,
                                          > and
                                          > > >lacking in humility, than when a more senior cleric takes an
                                          > abusive tone
                                          > > >towards those beneath him. A lot of the problems we face in our
                                          > Holy
                                          > > >Orthodox Church are from those who may be grounded in academic
                                          > Orthodoxy,
                                          > > >but lack Phronyma and Orthopraxy. The correct attitude for this
                                          > protodeacon
                                          > > >should have been: "how did I go wrong, that this misguided
                                          > subdeacon felt it
                                          > > >necessary to touch a Holy Table. I am the greatest sinner, let me
                                          > beg
                                          > > >forgiveness from this subdeacon for being a poor example."
                                          > > >
                                          > > >Knowing rubrics and service book instructions can never make up
                                          > for having
                                          > > >an Orthodox heart and mind and spirit directed by the Gospels, the
                                          > Rudder,
                                          > > >the Fathers and a well-grounded spiritual father. We should gently
                                          > encourage
                                          > > >others when they are mistaken, not unduly criticize them.
                                          > > >
                                          > > >BTW, it is NOT Greek tradition for altar servers to touch the Holy
                                          > Table nor
                                          > > >may anyone but a deacon or priest intone litanies. I was aware of
                                          > only
                                          > > >Antiochians doing this - and I thought they were finally stopping
                                          > this.
                                          > > >
                                          > > >In Christ,
                                          > > >Reader Andreas
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >On 11/5/07, Deacon Michael Bishop <Photo@...> wrote:
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >> Here is where part of the problem lies. Reader Timothy and I
                                          > both have
                                          > > >>served in the Antiochian Archdiocese and I have served in the OCA
                                          > and in
                                          > > >>the MP. I have also served in other jurisdictions, but that is
                                          > another
                                          > > >>story.
                                          > > >>
                                          > > >>It is my understanding that only an ordained subdeacon can intone
                                          > > >>litanies. That is why I never did it except for two priests. In
                                          > the
                                          > > >>Greek tradition apparently any altar server can touch the Altar
                                          > and this
                                          > > >>might be true in the Antiochian tradition, but I have not see it.
                                          > > >>
                                          > > >>In my experience the subdeacons can fetch and place the trikiri
                                          > and
                                          > > >>dikiri on the altar. That is the only thing some places. A year
                                          > ago I
                                          > > >>witnessed a subdeacon receiving a royal chewing out by a
                                          > protodeacon
                                          > > >>because he touched a side altar at a cathedral. He did not
                                          > realize that
                                          > > >>it was an altar.
                                          > > >>
                                          > > >>I have never seen a subdeacon circumvent around the consecrated
                                          > altar in
                                          > > >>a Russian church. I mentioned to some people that I have done it
                                          > before
                                          > > >>being ordained a deacon and they are shocked. When Daniel Manzuk
                                          > and I
                                          > > >>served with his godfather (Bishop Basil), he told us that we had a
                                          > > >>choice. We could walk across the altar or go through the deacon's
                                          > doors
                                          > > >>during the censing. We selected the former.
                                          > > >>
                                          > > >>When Philip was vested with the orarion by Metropolitan
                                          > Theodosius, he
                                          > > >>was told that he can wear it any time he serves.
                                          > > >>
                                          > > >>This is what I love about Orthodoxy: diversity in practices but
                                          > unity
                                          > > >>in faith!
                                          > > >>
                                          > > >>Deacon Michael
                                          > > >>
                                          > > >>Reader Timothy Tadros wrote:
                                          > > >>
                                          > > >>
                                          > > >>
                                          > > >>>Dear Father Deacon Michael,
                                          > > >>>In my experience for example in the Antiochian Arch. acolyts,
                                          > > >>>sub-deacons altar boys can touch just about anything even intone
                                          > > >>>ektenia.
                                          > > >>>In the Russian Church they are much more stricter on who may
                                          > touch
                                          > > >>>the altar. Tonsured Sub-deacons are allowed to touch the Altar
                                          > they
                                          > > >>>can even go thru the Royal Doors with the bishop when present.
                                          > They
                                          > > >>>can take off from the Altar the dikyri and trikyri, the bishops
                                          > mitre
                                          > > >>>for example. They can circumvent around the Altar when the bishop
                                          > > >>>censes standing in front, behind and the sides. They can help
                                          > devest
                                          > > >>>the Altar of coverings with the help of a priest or deacon and
                                          > must
                                          > > >>>be fully vested. Those acolyts, readers, and young men who are
                                          > > >>>blessed to wear the orarion usually are only for that parish and
                                          > it
                                          > > >>>dosen't mean they wear the orarion at every service when the
                                          > bishop
                                          > > >>>is not there.
                                          > > >>>Rdr Timothy Tadros
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>--- In orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com<orthodox-readers%40yahoogroups.com>
                                          > <orthodox-readers%
                                          > 40yahoogroups.com>,
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>Deacon Michael Bishop
                                          > > >>
                                          > > >>
                                          > > >>><Photo@> wrote:
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>>Dear Subdeacon Joseph,
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>You just expressed my sentiment also. My problem was compounded
                                          > by
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>the
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>>fact that I was a Subdeacon but my title was Reader because I
                                          > was
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>not
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>>ordained a Subdeacon. I was tonsured a Reader and immediately
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>vested as
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>>a Subdeacon with the rights of a Subdeacon.
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>I have always been in a parish environment since being tonsured,
                                          > > >>>>although once a month I had military duty. But then I still
                                          > could
                                          > > >>>>attend Vespers/Vigil on Saturday evening.
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>I definitely noticed that most priests did not know what to do
                                          > with
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>me.
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>>Now that problem is history for me, but it is something that I
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>still
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>>want to resolve. I saw one Subdeacon touching the side altar at
                                          > a
                                          > > >>>>cathedral and the Protodeacon jumped all over him. I don't think
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>that
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>>he realized that it was a side altar. This was on Bright
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>Saturday. I
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>>was walking through the Royal Doors until somebody came up to me
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>and
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>>said don't do it again. I really did not know if I should or
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>should not
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>>but when I saw somebody else do it, I did.
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>As a Subdeacon I did whatever was the local custom. On several
                                          > > >>>>occasions when serving with the Bishop, I cross in front of the
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>Holy
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>>Table and on one occasion I actually went through the Royal
                                          > Doors.
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>My
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>>last hiearchial Divine Liturgy before my ordination I carried
                                          > the
                                          > > >>>>trikiri and did both at the instructions of the Bishop. This was
                                          > > >>>>Antiochian practice.
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>I would love to see a standard for the minor orders. I would
                                          > love
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>to
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>>see some requirements for them and some standard pratice. I was
                                          > a
                                          > > >>>>Reader for six months before I had a cassock. It was only in
                                          > time
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>that
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>>I learned that I am supposed to have one. My priest gave me his
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>old
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>>cassock that he wore in the seminary. It was the Roman Catholic
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>style
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>>[at the time they cost $30 and an Orthodox cassock was $150]. I
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>would
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>>tell people that "this was Fr. Constantine's cassock when he
                                          > was at
                                          > > >>>>Immaculate Conception Orthodox Seminary." Very few people
                                          > believed
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>me,
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>>thank God.
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>When are Readers supposed to wear a cassock? How about
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>Subdeacons? My
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>>former pastor told me to wear mine any time that I am at a
                                          > church
                                          > > >>>>function, including the Greek Festival. I did. The first time my
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>meal
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>>and my driver's meal were free. I wore my cassock during
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>conferences
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>>and no Bishop ever said a word to me. Earlier this year months
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>before
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>>the date of my ordination was announced, I was at the Parish
                                          > Life
                                          > > >>>>Conference and taking a picture of a meeting and Bishop Thomas
                                          > had
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>me
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>>tell the kids in the room my name. When I did, he said, "See,
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>we're are
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>>cousins. I am Bishop Thomas and he is Michael Bishop." All the
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>kids
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>>loved that.
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>Deacon Michael
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>Joseph wrote:
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>>Dear Father Deacon Michael,
                                          > > >>>>>I was tonsured a reader and immediately ordained a subdeacon
                                          > > >>>>>afterwards in the ACROD. Afterwards I was accepted into ROCOR.
                                          > I
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>am
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>>>also in the Navy so, unfortunately, have not been able to
                                          > serve in
                                          > > >>>>>one church regularly due to traveling and such. Since
                                          > ordained, I
                                          > > >>>>>have mostly been an Orthodox layleader and had reader services
                                          > on
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>the
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>>>ships I have been on. Every chance I get, I try and visit (or
                                          > > >>>>>attend) any Orthodox Church I am near, and to be honest, most
                                          > > >>>>>churches (or priests) that I have had contact with, don't know
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>what
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>>>to do with a subdeacon. Nor what capacity they may fill. I have
                                          > > >>>>>noted also, depending on the jurisdiction, some subdeacons are
                                          > > >>>>>ordained, while some are blessed by the bishop. Some are
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>teenagers.
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>>>I have had some ask me if I can touch the Alter, others
                                          > wanting me
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>to
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>>>cense. I declined on both. In ACROD they refer to the subdeacon
                                          > > >>>>>and "Father Subdeacon" and in others "subdeacon". I'm sure that
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>you
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>>>have had similar run-ins. I must say that I feel that I do get
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>much
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>>>more respect and dignity than I deserve. My only wish is that
                                          > > >>>>>Orthodoxy as a whole would use / standardize the lower clergy
                                          > much
                                          > > >>>>>more than I personally have seen. Just my take on things.
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>in Christ,
                                          > > >>>>>sdcn joseph
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>BTW, I love your web site!!!
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>--- In orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com<orthodox-readers%40yahoogroups.com>
                                          > <orthodox-readers%
                                          > 40yahoogroups.com>,
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>"Deacon Michael Bishop"
                                          > > >>
                                          > > >>
                                          > > >>>>><Photo@> wrote:
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>>Apparently there has been no activity on this list. What a
                                          > shame!
                                          > > >>>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>>Although I am now a Deacon, I am still very interested in the
                                          > > >>>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>>
                                          > > >>>role
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>of
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>>the Reader and of the Subdeacon and I strongly believe that
                                          > these
                                          > > >>>>>>orders should be given much more respect and dignity than they
                                          > > >>>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>receive.
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>>One day I hope to revisit my thesis for my MDiv degree and add
                                          > > >>>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>>
                                          > > >>>much
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>>>>more information. Currently I am reading "The Great Entrance"
                                          > by
                                          > > >>>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>Fr.
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>>Robert Taft, but so far I have not seen any refences to
                                          > Readers or
                                          > > >>>>>>Subdeacons.
                                          > > >>>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>>If anybody has any information which he thinks might interest
                                          > me,
                                          > > >>>>>>please feel free to e-mail it to me at Deacon@ .
                                          > > >>>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>>Thank you.
                                          > > >>>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>>Deacon Michael
                                          > > >>>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>To learn more about reader services, see:
                                          > > >>>>>http://pages.prodigy.net/frjohnwhiteford/horologion.htm
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>To access this lists archives, go to:
                                          > > >>>>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
                                          > > >>>>>ogion.htm
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>To access this lists archives, go to:
                                          > > >>>>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>>>
                                          > > >>>>--
                                          > > >>>>Deacon Michael Bishop
                                          > > >>>>570 Saint Mary St
                                          > > >>>>Baltimore MD 21201-1936
                                          > > >>>>410-225-7743
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>http://www.Michael-Bishop.com <http://www.michael-bishop.com/> <
                                          > http://www.michael-bishop.com/>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>See you at the Russian Festival
                                          > > >>>>1723 Fairmount Avenue * Baltimore MD 21231
                                          > > >>>>17-19 October 2008
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>To learn more about reader services, see:
                                          > > >>>http://pages.prodigy.net/frjohnwhiteford/horologion.htm
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>To access this lists archives, go to:
                                          > > >>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
                                          > > >>>ogion.htm
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>To access this lists archives, go to:
                                          > > >>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>>
                                          > > >>--
                                          > > >>Deacon Michael Bishop
                                          > > >>570 Saint Mary St
                                          > > >>Baltimore MD 21201-1936
                                          > > >>410-225-7743
                                          > > >>
                                          > > >>http://www.Michael-Bishop.com <http://www.michael-bishop.com/> <
                                          > http://www.michael-bishop.com/>
                                          > > >>
                                          > > >>See you at the Russian Festival
                                          > > >>1723 Fairmount Avenue * Baltimore MD 21231
                                          > > >>17-19 October 2008
                                          > > >>
                                          > > >>--
                                          > > >>Deacon Michael Bishop
                                          > > >>570 Saint Mary St
                                          > > >>Baltimore MD 21201-1936
                                          > > >>410-225-7743
                                          > > >>
                                          > > >>http://www.Michael-Bishop.com <http://www.michael-bishop.com/> <
                                          > http://www.michael-bishop.com/>
                                          > > >>
                                          > > >>See you at the Russian Festival
                                          > > >>1723 Fairmount Avenue * Baltimore MD 21231
                                          > > >>17-19 October 2008
                                          > > >>
                                          > > >>
                                          > > >>
                                          > > >>
                                          > > >>
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >To learn more about reader services, see:
                                          > > >http://pages.prodigy.net/frjohnwhiteford/horologion.htm
                                          > > >
                                          > > >To access this lists archives, go to:
                                          > > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
                                          > > >ogion.htm
                                          > > >
                                          > > >To access this lists archives, go to:
                                          > > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
                                          > > >
                                          > > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > >
                                          > > --
                                          > > Deacon Michael Bishop
                                          > > 570 Saint Mary St
                                          > > Baltimore MD 21201-1936
                                          > > 410-225-7743
                                          > >
                                          > > http://www.Michael-Bishop.com <http://www.michael-bishop.com/>
                                          > >
                                          > > See you at the Russian Festival
                                          > > 1723 Fairmount Avenue * Baltimore MD 21231
                                          > > 17-19 October 2008
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >


                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • James Morgan
                                          Dear Fr. Dn Michael: What was your thesis about? The only difference between thesis and theosis is an O .... Rdr. James O...Lympia WA From: Deacon Michael
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Nov 7, 2007
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Dear Fr. Dn Michael:
                                            What was your thesis about?
                                            The only difference between thesis and theosis is an 'O'....

                                            Rdr. James
                                            O...Lympia WA


                                            From: Deacon Michael Bishop
                                            Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 7:08 AM
                                            To: orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com
                                            Subject: [orthodox-readers] No activity

                                            Apparently there has been no activity on this list. What a shame!

                                            Although I am now a Deacon, I am still very interested in the role of the
                                            Reader and of the Subdeacon and I strongly believe that these orders should
                                            be given much more respect and dignity than they receive.

                                            One day I hope to revisit my thesis for my MDiv degree and add much more
                                            information. Currently I am reading "The Great Entrance" by Fr. Robert
                                            Taft, but so far I have not seen any refences to Readers or Subdeacons.

                                            If anybody has any information which he thinks might interest me, please
                                            feel free to e-mail it to me at Deacon@... .

                                            Thank you.

                                            Deacon Michael
                                          • Deacon Michael Bishop
                                            My thesis, which has very little to do with theosis, is on the minor orders of the Church. Before I decided to go to the seminary, I jokingly said that a
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Nov 7, 2007
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              My thesis, which has very little to do with theosis, is on the minor
                                              orders of the Church.

                                              Before I decided to go to the seminary, I jokingly said that a subdeacon
                                              is a glorified altar server and a matushka became very upset with that.
                                              Unfortunately today I am basically correct. But I would love to see
                                              that changed. I would love to see those in minor orders have duties and
                                              respect associated with their orders.

                                              Deacon Michael

                                              James Morgan wrote:

                                              >Dear Fr. Dn Michael:
                                              >What was your thesis about?
                                              >The only difference between thesis and theosis is an 'O'....
                                              >
                                              >Rdr. James
                                              >O...Lympia WA
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >From: Deacon Michael Bishop
                                              >Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 7:08 AM
                                              >To: orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com
                                              >Subject: [orthodox-readers] No activity
                                              >
                                              >Apparently there has been no activity on this list. What a shame!
                                              >
                                              >Although I am now a Deacon, I am still very interested in the role of the
                                              >Reader and of the Subdeacon and I strongly believe that these orders should
                                              >be given much more respect and dignity than they receive.
                                              >
                                              >One day I hope to revisit my thesis for my MDiv degree and add much more
                                              >information. Currently I am reading "The Great Entrance" by Fr. Robert
                                              >Taft, but so far I have not seen any refences to Readers or Subdeacons.
                                              >
                                              >If anybody has any information which he thinks might interest me, please
                                              >feel free to e-mail it to me at Deacon@... .
                                              >
                                              >Thank you.
                                              >
                                              >Deacon Michael
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >To learn more about reader services, see:
                                              >http://pages.prodigy.net/frjohnwhiteford/horologion.htm
                                              >
                                              >To access this lists archives, go to:
                                              >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
                                              >ogion.htm
                                              >
                                              >To access this lists archives, go to:
                                              >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
                                              >
                                              >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >

                                              --
                                              Deacon Michael Bishop
                                              570 Saint Mary St
                                              Baltimore MD 21201-1936
                                              410-225-7743

                                              http://www.Michael-Bishop.com

                                              See you at the Russian Festival
                                              1723 Fairmount Avenue * Baltimore MD 21231
                                              17-19 October 2008
                                            • Rd. Andreas MacLean
                                              This is a hard one to figure out, posted on a board for readers! I have never once felt like a glorified altar server since being ordained nor have I met any
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Nov 7, 2007
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                This is a hard one to figure out, posted on a board for readers!

                                                I have never once felt like a glorified altar server since being ordained
                                                nor have I met any priests, bishops, deacons or laymen who consider readers
                                                and subdeacons to be glorified altar servers. Perhaps this is a difference
                                                between Greek practice, which has traditionally held all clergy and
                                                monastics in high regard, and the Slavic traditions. Perhaps in the Unia the
                                                are glorified altar servers (do they even have minor clergy?).

                                                But, if one is just looking for duties and respect, the clerical life really
                                                isn't for you! Tonsuring to clerical rank is about sacrifice and martyrdom
                                                and obedience and study - not about wearing fancy robes, having your hand
                                                kissed and being the center of attention. Readers and subdeacons are bound
                                                by the Canons in most cases the same as the higher orders. We are ordained
                                                by the laying on of a bishop's hands and set aside to our offices.

                                                I mean no offense, Fr. Michael, as I'm sure you don't either when you say
                                                that you are "unfortunately...basically correct" that we here are glorified
                                                altar servers. I should think as a theologian and deacon of the Church of
                                                Russia you would be better served by less stridency for non-traditional
                                                ideas of Orthodoxy.

                                                In Christ,
                                                Reader Andreas

                                                On Nov 7, 2007 7:21 PM, Deacon Michael Bishop <Photo@...>
                                                wrote:

                                                > My thesis, which has very little to do with theosis, is on the minor
                                                > orders of the Church.
                                                >
                                                > Before I decided to go to the seminary, I jokingly said that a subdeacon
                                                > is a glorified altar server and a matushka became very upset with that.
                                                > Unfortunately today I am basically correct. But I would love to see
                                                > that changed. I would love to see those in minor orders have duties and
                                                > respect associated with their orders.
                                                >
                                                > Deacon Michael
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > James Morgan wrote:
                                                >
                                                > >Dear Fr. Dn Michael:
                                                > >What was your thesis about?
                                                > >The only difference between thesis and theosis is an 'O'....
                                                > >
                                                > >Rdr. James
                                                > >O...Lympia WA
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >From: Deacon Michael Bishop
                                                > >Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 7:08 AM
                                                > >To: orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com <orthodox-readers%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                > >Subject: [orthodox-readers] No activity
                                                > >
                                                > >Apparently there has been no activity on this list. What a shame!
                                                > >
                                                > >Although I am now a Deacon, I am still very interested in the role of the
                                                > >Reader and of the Subdeacon and I strongly believe that these orders
                                                > should
                                                > >be given much more respect and dignity than they receive.
                                                > >
                                                > >One day I hope to revisit my thesis for my MDiv degree and add much more
                                                > >information. Currently I am reading "The Great Entrance" by Fr. Robert
                                                > >Taft, but so far I have not seen any refences to Readers or Subdeacons.
                                                > >
                                                > >If anybody has any information which he thinks might interest me, please
                                                > >feel free to e-mail it to me at Deacon@...<Deacon%40Michael-Bishop.com>.
                                                > >
                                                > >Thank you.
                                                > >
                                                > >Deacon Michael
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >To learn more about reader services, see:
                                                > >http://pages.prodigy.net/frjohnwhiteford/horologion.htm
                                                > >
                                                > >To access this lists archives, go to:
                                                > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
                                                > >ogion.htm
                                                > >
                                                > >To access this lists archives, go to:
                                                > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
                                                > >
                                                > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                >
                                                > --
                                                > Deacon Michael Bishop
                                                > 570 Saint Mary St
                                                > Baltimore MD 21201-1936
                                                > 410-225-7743
                                                >
                                                > http://www.Michael-Bishop.com
                                                >
                                                > See you at the Russian Festival
                                                > 1723 Fairmount Avenue * Baltimore MD 21231
                                                > 17-19 October 2008
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >


                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • Deacon Michael Bishop
                                                Really, what do Readers and Subdeacons do? I have two people who read the Epistle in my parish, Reader Joseph and Joseph. The only difference between the two
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Nov 8, 2007
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  Really, what do Readers and Subdeacons do? I have two people who read
                                                  the Epistle in my parish, Reader Joseph and Joseph. The only difference
                                                  between the two of them is that one has been tonsured a Reader and the
                                                  other has not. What is the difference betweent them and Nicholas?
                                                  Nicholas does not read. He does the duty of a Subdeacon.

                                                  You said that "Tonsuring to clerical rank is about sacrifice..." Where
                                                  is the sactrifice and obedience and study? What is the purpose of our
                                                  office? So we can have a title? I think not. You are correct that it
                                                  is not about wearing fancy robes. In fact, I prefer plain vestments,
                                                  although most of mine are fancy. I told Fr. Vladimir that I need a set
                                                  of green vestments and a few months later a set of fancy green vestments
                                                  arrived. I would had been much happier with plain green, but I accepted
                                                  what arrived.

                                                  I do not know what happens in the Unia. I have not been there for
                                                  centuries. I consider the office of Reader to be a very important one
                                                  but also one that is not used as it should be. Some priests do not even
                                                  know that a Reader is clergy. I mentioned this on one Orthodox list and
                                                  an Orthodox priest responded that this is news to him.

                                                  When a particular individual was ordained a Subdeacon, somebody asked
                                                  what does that mean and the Priest said that he is a glorified altar
                                                  server. For the most part, in my experience that is what a Subdeacon is
                                                  unless a Bishop is serving. Then he has special roles most of which can
                                                  be performed by non-Subdeacons.

                                                  In the early Church Readers had certain duties. Besides reading the
                                                  Psalms, certain prayers, and Epistles, and Old Testament, they also were
                                                  the ones who taught the catechumens. They required a knowledge of the
                                                  Faith. Subdeacons used to assist the Deacons and they also were
                                                  responsible for the temple itself. They made sure that the temple was
                                                  in good order.

                                                  Reader Andreas, I never implied that I wanted my hand kissed or to be
                                                  the center of attention. For 20 years I have felt that the office of
                                                  Reader was much more than somebody reading the Hours and/or Epistle.
                                                  Those in minor orders should be active in the liturgical life of the
                                                  parish and this should be much more than just serving on the Altar
                                                  during services. This is basically all that I am trying to say.

                                                  Deacon Michael



                                                  Rd. Andreas MacLean wrote:

                                                  >This is a hard one to figure out, posted on a board for readers!
                                                  >
                                                  >I have never once felt like a glorified altar server since being ordained
                                                  >nor have I met any priests, bishops, deacons or laymen who consider readers
                                                  >and subdeacons to be glorified altar servers. Perhaps this is a difference
                                                  >between Greek practice, which has traditionally held all clergy and
                                                  >monastics in high regard, and the Slavic traditions. Perhaps in the Unia the
                                                  >are glorified altar servers (do they even have minor clergy?).
                                                  >
                                                  >But, if one is just looking for duties and respect, the clerical life really
                                                  >isn't for you! Tonsuring to clerical rank is about sacrifice and martyrdom
                                                  >and obedience and study - not about wearing fancy robes, having your hand
                                                  >kissed and being the center of attention. Readers and subdeacons are bound
                                                  >by the Canons in most cases the same as the higher orders. We are ordained
                                                  >by the laying on of a bishop's hands and set aside to our offices.
                                                  >
                                                  >I mean no offense, Fr. Michael, as I'm sure you don't either when you say
                                                  >that you are "unfortunately...basically correct" that we here are glorified
                                                  >altar servers. I should think as a theologian and deacon of the Church of
                                                  >Russia you would be better served by less stridency for non-traditional
                                                  >ideas of Orthodoxy.
                                                  >
                                                  >In Christ,
                                                  >Reader Andreas
                                                  >
                                                  >On Nov 7, 2007 7:21 PM, Deacon Michael Bishop <Photo@...>
                                                  >wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >> My thesis, which has very little to do with theosis, is on the minor
                                                  >>orders of the Church.
                                                  >>
                                                  >>Before I decided to go to the seminary, I jokingly said that a subdeacon
                                                  >>is a glorified altar server and a matushka became very upset with that.
                                                  >>Unfortunately today I am basically correct. But I would love to see
                                                  >>that changed. I would love to see those in minor orders have duties and
                                                  >>respect associated with their orders.
                                                  >>
                                                  >>Deacon Michael
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>James Morgan wrote:
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>>Dear Fr. Dn Michael:
                                                  >>>What was your thesis about?
                                                  >>>The only difference between thesis and theosis is an 'O'....
                                                  >>>
                                                  >>>Rdr. James
                                                  >>>O...Lympia WA
                                                  >>>
                                                  >>>
                                                  >>>From: Deacon Michael Bishop
                                                  >>>Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 7:08 AM
                                                  >>>To: orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com <orthodox-readers%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                  >>>Subject: [orthodox-readers] No activity
                                                  >>>
                                                  >>>Apparently there has been no activity on this list. What a shame!
                                                  >>>
                                                  >>>Although I am now a Deacon, I am still very interested in the role of the
                                                  >>>Reader and of the Subdeacon and I strongly believe that these orders
                                                  >>>
                                                  >>>
                                                  >>should
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>>be given much more respect and dignity than they receive.
                                                  >>>
                                                  >>>One day I hope to revisit my thesis for my MDiv degree and add much more
                                                  >>>information. Currently I am reading "The Great Entrance" by Fr. Robert
                                                  >>>Taft, but so far I have not seen any refences to Readers or Subdeacons.
                                                  >>>
                                                  >>>If anybody has any information which he thinks might interest me, please
                                                  >>>feel free to e-mail it to me at Deacon@...<Deacon%40Michael-Bishop.com>.
                                                  >>>
                                                  >>>Thank you.
                                                  >>>
                                                  >>>Deacon Michael
                                                  >>>
                                                  >>>
                                                  >>>
                                                  >>>
                                                  >>>
                                                  >>>To learn more about reader services, see:
                                                  >>>http://pages.prodigy.net/frjohnwhiteford/horologion.htm
                                                  >>>
                                                  >>>To access this lists archives, go to:
                                                  >>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
                                                  >>>ogion.htm
                                                  >>>
                                                  >>>To access this lists archives, go to:
                                                  >>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
                                                  >>>
                                                  >>>Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                  >>>
                                                  >>>
                                                  >>>
                                                  >>>
                                                  >>>
                                                  >>>
                                                  >>>
                                                  >>>
                                                  >>>
                                                  >>--
                                                  >>Deacon Michael Bishop
                                                  >>570 Saint Mary St
                                                  >>Baltimore MD 21201-1936
                                                  >>410-225-7743
                                                  >>
                                                  >>http://www.Michael-Bishop.com
                                                  >>
                                                  >>See you at the Russian Festival
                                                  >>1723 Fairmount Avenue * Baltimore MD 21231
                                                  >>17-19 October 2008
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >To learn more about reader services, see:
                                                  >http://pages.prodigy.net/frjohnwhiteford/horologion.htm
                                                  >
                                                  >To access this lists archives, go to:
                                                  >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
                                                  >ogion.htm
                                                  >
                                                  >To access this lists archives, go to:
                                                  >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
                                                  >
                                                  >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >

                                                  --
                                                  Deacon Michael Bishop
                                                  570 Saint Mary St
                                                  Baltimore MD 21201-1936
                                                  410-225-7743

                                                  http://www.Michael-Bishop.com

                                                  See you at the Russian Festival
                                                  1723 Fairmount Avenue * Baltimore MD 21231
                                                  17-19 October 2008


                                                  --
                                                  Deacon Michael Bishop
                                                  570 Saint Mary St
                                                  Baltimore MD 21201-1936
                                                  410-225-7743

                                                  http://www.Michael-Bishop.com

                                                  See you at the Russian Festival
                                                  1723 Fairmount Avenue * Baltimore MD 21231
                                                  17-19 October 2008
                                                • Fr. Daniel Swires
                                                  ... I ve been quietly following this discussion, and must now respond. It is quite unkind for anyone to say that a Subdeacon is a glorified altar server .
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Nov 9, 2007
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    Deacon Michael wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > When a particular individual was ordained a Subdeacon, somebody asked
                                                    > what does that mean and the Priest said that he is a glorified altar
                                                    > server. For the most part, in my experience that is what a Subdeacon is
                                                    > unless a Bishop is serving. Then he has special roles most of which can
                                                    > be performed by non-Subdeacons.
                                                    >

                                                    I've been quietly following this discussion, and must now respond.
                                                    It is quite unkind for anyone to say that a Subdeacon is a "glorified altar
                                                    server".
                                                    After all, what is a Deacon, or for that matter, a priest, if not a server?

                                                    A better analogy for a Subdeacon might be a butler. He is in charge of the
                                                    staff and of everything that is done to support the Priest (and Deacon) in
                                                    the
                                                    services.

                                                    Also, regarding printing booklets. Anyone can print booklets from any
                                                    program that can
                                                    print. All you need is the very powerful ClickBook from Blue Squirrel. I
                                                    have used it for
                                                    years to make hundreds of booklets, tri-fold brochures, double-sided choir
                                                    music, etc., etc.
                                                    You need not switch from your word processor of preference. It will work
                                                    with any of them.

                                                    Fr. Daniel Swires
                                                  • Philip
                                                    ... Antiochian ... it, was ... was ... because ... A major problem is the lack of literature or manuals describing the function of a Reader or Subdeacon. The
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , Nov 15, 2007
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      --- In orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com, Deacon Michael Bishop
                                                      <Photo@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > This has also been my experience in the OCA and MP. In the
                                                      Antiochian
                                                      > Archdiocese subdeacons do litanies in the absence of a deacon. The
                                                      > point that I was making earlier, and Reader Andreas picked up on
                                                      it, was
                                                      > that subdeacons do not touch the Altar in the Russian practice. It
                                                      was
                                                      > unfortunate that the protodeacon really chewed out the subdeacon
                                                      because
                                                      > he did not realize that this was an Altar.

                                                      A major problem is the lack of literature or manuals describing the
                                                      function of a Reader or Subdeacon. The only one that I have found
                                                      is "A Subdeacon's Manual - A guide for subdeacons and alter servers
                                                      at hierarchical services according to the Russian tradition" by
                                                      Deacon C. Kirill Sokolov. In it, it is written a Subdeacon "may
                                                      touch the Holy Table if there is a necessity or direction so to do".
                                                      However, when once I went to put the Dikiri back on the Holy Table,
                                                      the Bishop told me very firmly told that I was not a Deacon or Priest
                                                      so I should give it to one of the Priests to put back onto the Holy
                                                      Table. It was one of those cases where a little education beforehand
                                                      would prevent an unpleasant situation later. As Deacon Michael
                                                      wrote, most of the time there is not much difference between a
                                                      Subdeacon and an altar server except when the Bishop comes once a
                                                      year at which point he is supposed to know everything, but who is
                                                      there to teach him? Many priests have forgotten the functions and
                                                      responsibilities of the subdeacon, but on the otherhand the bishop
                                                      would like to see perfection - the problem is how to bridge the gap.

                                                      In Christ,

                                                      Hypodeacon Philip
                                                    • Vasil Balbay
                                                      I don t know of the OCA, Greek or Antiochian practices regarding Sub-deacons, but I can certainly explain Russian and Old Believer Russian practices. When I
                                                      Message 26 of 30 , Nov 15, 2007
                                                      • 0 Attachment
                                                        I don't know of the OCA, Greek or Antiochian practices regarding
                                                        Sub-deacons, but I can certainly explain Russian and Old Believer Russian
                                                        practices. When I was ordained a Sub-deacon, (not a reader or altar server
                                                        blessed to wear the orarion)and having stood through the service till the
                                                        washing of the hands after the Great Entrance (me holding the basin and
                                                        towel) I was told to go into the Altar. After the communion of the clergy,
                                                        the bishop called me over and gave me instruction. After that he took my
                                                        hand and put it on the Holy Table. The instructions and lessons that I have
                                                        received and followed with, Metropolitan Laurus, Archbishop Anthony of San
                                                        Fransisco (of blessed memory), Bishop Mitrophan of blessed memory, Bishops
                                                        Daniel, Gabriel, and Michael under the tutelage and with greatest of love
                                                        and respect to Protodeacon and now Archdeacon Eugene who has served under 4
                                                        Metropolitans of ROCA is as follows. I vested and unvested the Holy Table
                                                        and the Table of Oblation. I kept all the Holy Vessels clean. I may not
                                                        touch the Chalice when it has the Holy Blood and Body. All other times it
                                                        was my job to ready the Chalice, Paten and all other things before Liturgy.
                                                        I would mark the Gospel readings for the Liturgy. The Gospel was given to
                                                        the Sub-deacon after the reading to place on the back of the Holy Table.
                                                        After the Great Entrance I would place the Spoon and Spear on the Holy
                                                        Table. If there were not enough other Clergy I would hold the Aer over the
                                                        Bishops heads along with the Priest during the Creed. After all the
                                                        particles were put into the chalice, the Sub-deacon would put the Aer,
                                                        Spoon, Spear, Star, and the Cover on the Paten. If there were 2 ordained
                                                        Sub-deacons during the Services with a Bishop we would go through the Royal
                                                        Gates with the Bishop and around the Holy Table. Just my 2 cents. Vbg!



                                                        Sub-deacon Vasil



                                                        _____

                                                        From: orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com
                                                        [mailto:orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Philip
                                                        Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2007 2:32 PM
                                                        To: orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com
                                                        Subject: [orthodox-readers] Re: No activity



                                                        --- In orthodox-readers@ <mailto:orthodox-readers%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                        yahoogroups.com, Deacon Michael Bishop
                                                        <Photo@...> wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        > This has also been my experience in the OCA and MP. In the
                                                        Antiochian
                                                        > Archdiocese subdeacons do litanies in the absence of a deacon. The
                                                        > point that I was making earlier, and Reader Andreas picked up on
                                                        it, was
                                                        > that subdeacons do not touch the Altar in the Russian practice. It
                                                        was
                                                        > unfortunate that the protodeacon really chewed out the subdeacon
                                                        because
                                                        > he did not realize that this was an Altar.

                                                        A major problem is the lack of literature or manuals describing the
                                                        function of a Reader or Subdeacon. The only one that I have found
                                                        is "A Subdeacon's Manual - A guide for subdeacons and alter servers
                                                        at hierarchical services according to the Russian tradition" by
                                                        Deacon C. Kirill Sokolov. In it, it is written a Subdeacon "may
                                                        touch the Holy Table if there is a necessity or direction so to do".
                                                        However, when once I went to put the Dikiri back on the Holy Table,
                                                        the Bishop told me very firmly told that I was not a Deacon or Priest
                                                        so I should give it to one of the Priests to put back onto the Holy
                                                        Table. It was one of those cases where a little education beforehand
                                                        would prevent an unpleasant situation later. As Deacon Michael
                                                        wrote, most of the time there is not much difference between a
                                                        Subdeacon and an altar server except when the Bishop comes once a
                                                        year at which point he is supposed to know everything, but who is
                                                        there to teach him? Many priests have forgotten the functions and
                                                        responsibilities of the subdeacon, but on the otherhand the bishop
                                                        would like to see perfection - the problem is how to bridge the gap.

                                                        In Christ,

                                                        Hypodeacon Philip





                                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                      • Deacon Michael Bishop
                                                        Hypodeacon Philip makes a really good point. As a Subdeacon, I often put the dikiri [or trikiri] on the Altar or removed it from the Alar. There are times
                                                        Message 27 of 30 , Nov 15, 2007
                                                        • 0 Attachment
                                                          Hypodeacon Philip makes a really good point. As a Subdeacon, I often
                                                          put the dikiri [or trikiri] on the Altar or removed it from the Alar.
                                                          There are times when a Subdeacons have to do this because there is no
                                                          Priest there or the Priest is occupied. One priest would not allow me
                                                          to touch anything on the Altar, not even the candles. I would change
                                                          them when he was not there. But I could not clean the Cross on the
                                                          Altar. The candles were at the back so that might had made a difference.

                                                          I am not going to try to remember which Bishop permitted what or which
                                                          Bishop permitted Subdeacons to remove the dikiri and trikiri from the
                                                          Altar. First I would have to remember whether they were on the Altar or
                                                          on a table behind the Altar. I can say that the Russians are more
                                                          strict about this than the Greeks or Antiochians.

                                                          I "served" at an Unction service this evening. Basically I just "stood
                                                          there and glittered," but I was there. Since most of it was in Greek,
                                                          it was very well that I really did not do anything. But I knew clearly
                                                          my role and my position. This was also a good opportunity for me to be
                                                          in the middle of everything and observe and pay attention.

                                                          Before I was ordained a Deacon, my role probably would had been
                                                          unclear. Reader Basil read some of the Epistles and he did a beautiful
                                                          job. I had to turn to see who was reading since it sounded so good and
                                                          it was in English.

                                                          After the service I knew exactly my place. I sat at the clergy table
                                                          with the Priests and eventually their wives joined us. As a Subdeacon,
                                                          I usually sat at the clergy table as long as there were enough seats.
                                                          At one church I did not sat with the clergy and a yia-yia got on my
                                                          case. I was denying her and the others the opportunity to serve me as a
                                                          clergy. The question is should I had been sitting with the Priests or
                                                          with the laity?

                                                          The role and status of Readers and Subdeacons seem to be very unclear.
                                                          What about Psalmists? Is a Psalmist equivalent to a Reader or a Singer
                                                          in the choir?

                                                          This is not about glory and honor, but about serving. Sitting at the
                                                          table and being waited on can be a service. There are people who enjoy
                                                          waiting on tables and who am I to deny them their joy?

                                                          Deacon Michael



                                                          Philip wrote:

                                                          >--- In orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com, Deacon Michael Bishop
                                                          ><Photo@...> wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >>This has also been my experience in the OCA and MP. In the
                                                          >>
                                                          >>
                                                          >Antiochian
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >>Archdiocese subdeacons do litanies in the absence of a deacon. The
                                                          >>point that I was making earlier, and Reader Andreas picked up on
                                                          >>
                                                          >>
                                                          >it, was
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >>that subdeacons do not touch the Altar in the Russian practice. It
                                                          >>
                                                          >>
                                                          >was
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >>unfortunate that the protodeacon really chewed out the subdeacon
                                                          >>
                                                          >>
                                                          >because
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >>he did not realize that this was an Altar.
                                                          >>
                                                          >>
                                                          >
                                                          >A major problem is the lack of literature or manuals describing the
                                                          >function of a Reader or Subdeacon. The only one that I have found
                                                          >is "A Subdeacon's Manual - A guide for subdeacons and alter servers
                                                          >at hierarchical services according to the Russian tradition" by
                                                          >Deacon C. Kirill Sokolov. In it, it is written a Subdeacon "may
                                                          >touch the Holy Table if there is a necessity or direction so to do".
                                                          >However, when once I went to put the Dikiri back on the Holy Table,
                                                          >the Bishop told me very firmly told that I was not a Deacon or Priest
                                                          >so I should give it to one of the Priests to put back onto the Holy
                                                          >Table. It was one of those cases where a little education beforehand
                                                          >would prevent an unpleasant situation later. As Deacon Michael
                                                          >wrote, most of the time there is not much difference between a
                                                          >Subdeacon and an altar server except when the Bishop comes once a
                                                          >year at which point he is supposed to know everything, but who is
                                                          >there to teach him? Many priests have forgotten the functions and
                                                          >responsibilities of the subdeacon, but on the otherhand the bishop
                                                          >would like to see perfection - the problem is how to bridge the gap.
                                                          >
                                                          >In Christ,
                                                          >
                                                          >Hypodeacon Philip
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >To learn more about reader services, see:
                                                          >http://pages.prodigy.net/frjohnwhiteford/horologion.htm
                                                          >
                                                          >To access this lists archives, go to:
                                                          >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
                                                          >ogion.htm
                                                          >
                                                          >To access this lists archives, go to:
                                                          >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
                                                          >
                                                          >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >

                                                          --
                                                          Deacon Michael Bishop
                                                          570 Saint Mary St
                                                          Baltimore MD 21201-1936
                                                          410-225-7743

                                                          http://www.Michael-Bishop.com

                                                          See you at the Russian Festival
                                                          1723 Fairmount Avenue * Baltimore MD 21231
                                                          17-19 October 2008
                                                        • Deacon Michael Bishop
                                                          Thank you, Subdeacon Vasil. This is basically what I envision as a part of the duties of a Subdeacon. Some are more than I had anticipated, but that is fine.
                                                          Message 28 of 30 , Nov 16, 2007
                                                          • 0 Attachment
                                                            Thank you, Subdeacon Vasil. This is basically what I envision as a part
                                                            of the duties of a Subdeacon. Some are more than I had anticipated, but
                                                            that is fine.

                                                            When putting the Aer, Spoon, Spear, Star, and Cover on the Patent, where
                                                            do you stand? In front of the Holy Table or on the side?

                                                            Your last complete sentence is also Antiochian practice. I have only
                                                            once heard of it in the Russian practice and this was Fr. John Shaw's
                                                            response to a trivia which I posted on another list a few years ago.
                                                            The last time I served with an Antiochian bishop, I served as an
                                                            ordained Subdeacon. In the OCA an unmarried man is often vested as a
                                                            Subdeacon but not ordained. If he is ordained, he then cannot marry and
                                                            I think that this was my situation. The Antiochian bishop was well
                                                            aware of this.

                                                            Your post actually answers my question liturgically and some of my
                                                            question outside the Liturgy. Eventually I hope to revisit my thesis
                                                            and add your comments to it.

                                                            Deacon Michael

                                                            Vasil Balbay wrote:
                                                            > I don't know of the OCA, Greek or Antiochian practices regarding
                                                            > Sub-deacons, but I can certainly explain Russian and Old Believer Russian
                                                            > practices. When I was ordained a Sub-deacon, (not a reader or altar server
                                                            > blessed to wear the orarion)and having stood through the service till the
                                                            > washing of the hands after the Great Entrance (me holding the basin and
                                                            > towel) I was told to go into the Altar. After the communion of the clergy,
                                                            > the bishop called me over and gave me instruction. After that he took my
                                                            > hand and put it on the Holy Table. The instructions and lessons that I have
                                                            > received and followed with, Metropolitan Laurus, Archbishop Anthony of San
                                                            > Fransisco (of blessed memory), Bishop Mitrophan of blessed memory, Bishops
                                                            > Daniel, Gabriel, and Michael under the tutelage and with greatest of love
                                                            > and respect to Protodeacon and now Archdeacon Eugene who has served under 4
                                                            > Metropolitans of ROCA is as follows. I vested and unvested the Holy Table
                                                            > and the Table of Oblation. I kept all the Holy Vessels clean. I may not
                                                            > touch the Chalice when it has the Holy Blood and Body. All other times it
                                                            > was my job to ready the Chalice, Paten and all other things before Liturgy.
                                                            > I would mark the Gospel readings for the Liturgy. The Gospel was given to
                                                            > the Sub-deacon after the reading to place on the back of the Holy Table.
                                                            > After the Great Entrance I would place the Spoon and Spear on the Holy
                                                            > Table. If there were not enough other Clergy I would hold the Aer over the
                                                            > Bishops heads along with the Priest during the Creed. After all the
                                                            > particles were put into the chalice, the Sub-deacon would put the Aer,
                                                            > Spoon, Spear, Star, and the Cover on the Paten. If there were 2 ordained
                                                            > Sub-deacons during the Services with a Bishop we would go through the Royal
                                                            > Gates with the Bishop and around the Holy Table. Just my 2 cents. Vbg!
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > Sub-deacon Vasil
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > _____
                                                            >
                                                            > From: orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com
                                                            > [mailto:orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Philip
                                                            > Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2007 2:32 PM
                                                            > To: orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com
                                                            > Subject: [orthodox-readers] Re: No activity
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > --- In orthodox-readers@ <mailto:orthodox-readers%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                            > yahoogroups.com, Deacon Michael Bishop
                                                            > <Photo@...> wrote:
                                                            >
                                                            >>This has also been my experience in the OCA and MP. In the
                                                            >
                                                            > Antiochian
                                                            >
                                                            >>Archdiocese subdeacons do litanies in the absence of a deacon. The
                                                            >>point that I was making earlier, and Reader Andreas picked up on
                                                            >
                                                            > it, was
                                                            >
                                                            >>that subdeacons do not touch the Altar in the Russian practice. It
                                                            >
                                                            > was
                                                            >
                                                            >>unfortunate that the protodeacon really chewed out the subdeacon
                                                            >
                                                            > because
                                                            >
                                                            >>he did not realize that this was an Altar.
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > A major problem is the lack of literature or manuals describing the
                                                            > function of a Reader or Subdeacon. The only one that I have found
                                                            > is "A Subdeacon's Manual - A guide for subdeacons and alter servers
                                                            > at hierarchical services according to the Russian tradition" by
                                                            > Deacon C. Kirill Sokolov. In it, it is written a Subdeacon "may
                                                            > touch the Holy Table if there is a necessity or direction so to do".
                                                            > However, when once I went to put the Dikiri back on the Holy Table,
                                                            > the Bishop told me very firmly told that I was not a Deacon or Priest
                                                            > so I should give it to one of the Priests to put back onto the Holy
                                                            > Table. It was one of those cases where a little education beforehand
                                                            > would prevent an unpleasant situation later. As Deacon Michael
                                                            > wrote, most of the time there is not much difference between a
                                                            > Subdeacon and an altar server except when the Bishop comes once a
                                                            > year at which point he is supposed to know everything, but who is
                                                            > there to teach him? Many priests have forgotten the functions and
                                                            > responsibilities of the subdeacon, but on the otherhand the bishop
                                                            > would like to see perfection - the problem is how to bridge the gap.
                                                            >
                                                            > In Christ,
                                                            >
                                                            > Hypodeacon Philip
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > To learn more about reader services, see:
                                                            > http://pages.prodigy.net/frjohnwhiteford/horologion.htm
                                                            >
                                                            > To access this lists archives, go to:
                                                            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
                                                            > ogion.htm
                                                            >
                                                            > To access this lists archives, go to:
                                                            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
                                                            >
                                                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >

                                                            --
                                                            Deacon Michael Bishop
                                                            570 Saint Mary St
                                                            Baltimore MD 21201-1936
                                                            410-225-7743

                                                            http://www.Michael-Bishop.com

                                                            See you at the Russian Festival
                                                            1723 Fairmount Avenue * Baltimore MD 21231
                                                            17-19 October 2008
                                                          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.