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Reader services at a gravesite

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  • axios19
    ..can a Tonsured Reader lead services at a funeral home or gravesite when a priest or deacon are not available?...are there any texts available ?...thank you
    Message 1 of 6 , Aug 13, 2007
      ..can a Tonsured Reader lead services at a funeral home or gravesite
      when a priest or deacon are not available?...are there any texts
      available ?...thank you ...
    • Reader Andreas
      Actually, deacons can t lead services either - they only act as protos or senior reader in a reader s service, by virtue of being a higher order of clergy.
      Message 2 of 6 , Aug 13, 2007
        Actually, deacons can't "lead services" either - they only act as protos or
        "senior reader" in a reader's service, by virtue of being a higher order of
        clergy. Technically, I should think most of the Trisagion could be said by a
        reader, perhaps replacing the petitions by 40x "Kyrie eleison," skipping the
        prayer "O God of Spirits" and ending with "Through the prayers." I would say
        no to reading a Funeral Service. The Trisagion Service can be found in the
        Euchologion or in the back of the Holy Cross Divine Liturgy book.

        But I would be more concerned about why it is that no Orthodox priest nor
        bishop could be found to serve a funeral for a faithful Orthodox Christian?
        Unless the funeral is on Baffin Island (?!), I can't think of a place in
        North America where you couldn't find a priest within a hundred miles or so.

        In Christ,
        Reader Andreas


        On 8/13/07, axios19 <axios19@...> wrote:
        >
        > ..can a Tonsured Reader lead services at a funeral home or gravesite
        > when a priest or deacon are not available?...are there any texts
        > available ?...thank you ...
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Alex Langley
        Exactly what service are you proposing to serve? Except within my own home, as a tonsured reader I never serve a readers service without my priest s specific
        Message 3 of 6 , Aug 14, 2007
          Exactly what service are you proposing to serve?

          Except within my own home, as a tonsured reader I never serve a
          "readers service" without my priest's specific blessing. For example,
          my priest has giving me a blessing to do a readers vespers with litia
          (verses only) for other Orthodox Christians in a rented room in a
          protestant church building. I would not serve it without his blessing.

          I suggest you ask your priest for his blessing to do what you wish to
          do at the grave site, and ask him for instructions as to what you may do.

          So, are you wanting to serve a pannikhida or an actual funeral?

          Either way, talk to a priest. If the departed is not Orthodox, that
          is also an important factor. Again, ask your priest.

          And Reader Andreas makes a good point. Basically, without a priest, a
          deacon is a senior reader (protopsaltis) for all intents and purposes
          unless he has a special blessing, for example, to serve Holy Communion
          after a Typica service. A deacon can't even swing a censer without
          the priest's blessing. However, a "stationary" censer can be lit to
          burn incense in front of the iconostasis if you are in an Orthodox
          Church building.

          When in doubt, ask your priest.

          Rdr. Alexander

          --- In orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com, "Reader Andreas"
          <andreas.anagnostis@...> wrote:
          >
          > Actually, deacons can't "lead services" either - they only act as
          protos or
          > "senior reader" in a reader's service, by virtue of being a higher
          order of
          > clergy. Technically, I should think most of the Trisagion could be
          said by a
          > reader, perhaps replacing the petitions by 40x "Kyrie eleison,"
          skipping the
          > prayer "O God of Spirits" and ending with "Through the prayers." I
          would say
          > no to reading a Funeral Service. The Trisagion Service can be found
          in the
          > Euchologion or in the back of the Holy Cross Divine Liturgy book.
          >
          > But I would be more concerned about why it is that no Orthodox
          priest nor
          > bishop could be found to serve a funeral for a faithful Orthodox
          Christian?
          > Unless the funeral is on Baffin Island (?!), I can't think of a place in
          > North America where you couldn't find a priest within a hundred
          miles or so.
          >
          > In Christ,
          > Reader Andreas
          >
          >
          > On 8/13/07, axios19 <axios19@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > ..can a Tonsured Reader lead services at a funeral home or gravesite
          > > when a priest or deacon are not available?...are there any texts
          > > available ?...thank you ...
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • Reader Michael Bishop
          Please keep in mind that often the priest also does not know the answer and this is why some people are asking the questions. A good friend of mine is a
          Message 4 of 6 , Aug 14, 2007
            Please keep in mind that often the priest also does not know the answer
            and this is why some people are asking the questions. A good friend of
            mine is a priest and he knows much less than I do about liturgical
            rubrics and we were classmates at the seminary.

            A few months ago my priest and I had a discussion on some rubrical issue
            and we could not come to a conclusion so I posted the question on one of
            the lists at his request. The first thing that I said was just what my
            priest and I do not know the answer and he asked me to post it. The
            very first answer that we received was "ask your priest."

            Ultimately the final decision is up to the priest, but often the priest
            needs guidance and the guidance often comes from questions being raised
            as these questions are raised.

            Before I went to the seminary, my bishop said that the Church needs
            educated laymen. Often a priest will look to the educated laymen in his
            parish to help him to make a decision. He understands that the laymen
            might have much more knowledge in certain areas than he has. Some of
            these laymen are on this and other lists and they are often hoping that
            priests and laymen with more knowledge than they will give them some
            solid answers that they can use.

            Reader Michael

            Alex Langley wrote:
            > Exactly what service are you proposing to serve?
            >
            > Except within my own home, as a tonsured reader I never serve a
            > "readers service" without my priest's specific blessing. For example,
            > my priest has giving me a blessing to do a readers vespers with litia
            > (verses only) for other Orthodox Christians in a rented room in a
            > protestant church building. I would not serve it without his blessing.
            >
            > I suggest you ask your priest for his blessing to do what you wish to
            > do at the grave site, and ask him for instructions as to what you may do.
            >
            > So, are you wanting to serve a pannikhida or an actual funeral?
            >
            > Either way, talk to a priest. If the departed is not Orthodox, that
            > is also an important factor. Again, ask your priest.
            >
            > And Reader Andreas makes a good point. Basically, without a priest, a
            > deacon is a senior reader (protopsaltis) for all intents and purposes
            > unless he has a special blessing, for example, to serve Holy Communion
            > after a Typica service. A deacon can't even swing a censer without
            > the priest's blessing. However, a "stationary" censer can be lit to
            > burn incense in front of the iconostasis if you are in an Orthodox
            > Church building.
            >
            > When in doubt, ask your priest.
            >
            > Rdr. Alexander
            >
            > --- In orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com, "Reader Andreas"
            > <andreas.anagnostis@...> wrote:
            >
            >>Actually, deacons can't "lead services" either - they only act as
            >
            > protos or
            >
            >>"senior reader" in a reader's service, by virtue of being a higher
            >
            > order of
            >
            >>clergy. Technically, I should think most of the Trisagion could be
            >
            > said by a
            >
            >>reader, perhaps replacing the petitions by 40x "Kyrie eleison,"
            >
            > skipping the
            >
            >>prayer "O God of Spirits" and ending with "Through the prayers." I
            >
            > would say
            >
            >>no to reading a Funeral Service. The Trisagion Service can be found
            >
            > in the
            >
            >>Euchologion or in the back of the Holy Cross Divine Liturgy book.
            >>
            >>But I would be more concerned about why it is that no Orthodox
            >
            > priest nor
            >
            >>bishop could be found to serve a funeral for a faithful Orthodox
            >
            > Christian?
            >
            >>Unless the funeral is on Baffin Island (?!), I can't think of a place in
            >>North America where you couldn't find a priest within a hundred
            >
            > miles or so.
            >
            >>In Christ,
            >>Reader Andreas
            >>
            >>
            >>On 8/13/07, axios19 <axios19@...> wrote:
            >>
            >>> ..can a Tonsured Reader lead services at a funeral home or gravesite
            >>>when a priest or deacon are not available?...are there any texts
            >>>available ?...thank you ...
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>
            >>
            >>
            >>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >>
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > To learn more about reader services, see:
            > http://pages.prodigy.net/frjohnwhiteford/horologion.htm
            >
            > To access this lists archives, go to:
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
            > ogion.htm
            >
            > To access this lists archives, go to:
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >

            --
            Rdr Michael Bishop
            570 Saint Mary St
            Baltimore MD 21201-1936
            410-225-7743

            http://www.Michael-Bishop.com

            See you at the Russian Festival
            1723 Fairmount Avenue * Baltimore MD 21231
            19-21 October 2007
          • Чтец В
            Very well put. I have sometimes noticed that priests can often give decisions when you are looking for answers, if that makes sense. If one s not careful the
            Message 5 of 6 , Aug 14, 2007
              Very well put. I have sometimes noticed that priests can often give
              decisions when you are looking for answers, if that makes sense. If
              one's not careful the two are easily mixed up.

              Rdr. Slavik

              --- In orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com, Reader Michael Bishop
              <thearch@...> wrote:
              >
              > Please keep in mind that often the priest also does not know the
              answer
              > and this is why some people are asking the questions. A good
              friend of
              > mine is a priest and he knows much less than I do about liturgical
              > rubrics and we were classmates at the seminary.
              >
              > A few months ago my priest and I had a discussion on some rubrical
              issue
              > and we could not come to a conclusion so I posted the question on
              one of
              > the lists at his request. The first thing that I said was just
              what my
              > priest and I do not know the answer and he asked me to post it.
              The
              > very first answer that we received was "ask your priest."
              >
              > Ultimately the final decision is up to the priest, but often the
              priest
              > needs guidance and the guidance often comes from questions being
              raised
              > as these questions are raised.
              >
              > Before I went to the seminary, my bishop said that the Church needs
              > educated laymen. Often a priest will look to the educated laymen
              in his
              > parish to help him to make a decision. He understands that the
              laymen
              > might have much more knowledge in certain areas than he has. Some
              of
              > these laymen are on this and other lists and they are often hoping
              that
              > priests and laymen with more knowledge than they will give them
              some
              > solid answers that they can use.
              >
              > Reader Michael
              >
              > Alex Langley wrote:
              > > Exactly what service are you proposing to serve?
              > >
              > > Except within my own home, as a tonsured reader I never serve a
              > > "readers service" without my priest's specific blessing. For
              example,
              > > my priest has giving me a blessing to do a readers vespers with
              litia
              > > (verses only) for other Orthodox Christians in a rented room in a
              > > protestant church building. I would not serve it without his
              blessing.
              > >
              > > I suggest you ask your priest for his blessing to do what you
              wish to
              > > do at the grave site, and ask him for instructions as to what you
              may do.
              > >
              > > So, are you wanting to serve a pannikhida or an actual funeral?
              > >
              > > Either way, talk to a priest. If the departed is not Orthodox,
              that
              > > is also an important factor. Again, ask your priest.
              > >
              > > And Reader Andreas makes a good point. Basically, without a
              priest, a
              > > deacon is a senior reader (protopsaltis) for all intents and
              purposes
              > > unless he has a special blessing, for example, to serve Holy
              Communion
              > > after a Typica service. A deacon can't even swing a censer
              without
              > > the priest's blessing. However, a "stationary" censer can be lit
              to
              > > burn incense in front of the iconostasis if you are in an Orthodox
              > > Church building.
              > >
              > > When in doubt, ask your priest.
              > >
              > > Rdr. Alexander
              > >
              > > --- In orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com, "Reader Andreas"
              > > <andreas.anagnostis@> wrote:
              > >
              > >>Actually, deacons can't "lead services" either - they only act as
              > >
              > > protos or
              > >
              > >>"senior reader" in a reader's service, by virtue of being a higher
              > >
              > > order of
              > >
              > >>clergy. Technically, I should think most of the Trisagion could be
              > >
              > > said by a
              > >
              > >>reader, perhaps replacing the petitions by 40x "Kyrie eleison,"
              > >
              > > skipping the
              > >
              > >>prayer "O God of Spirits" and ending with "Through the prayers." I
              > >
              > > would say
              > >
              > >>no to reading a Funeral Service. The Trisagion Service can be
              found
              > >
              > > in the
              > >
              > >>Euchologion or in the back of the Holy Cross Divine Liturgy book.
              > >>
              > >>But I would be more concerned about why it is that no Orthodox
              > >
              > > priest nor
              > >
              > >>bishop could be found to serve a funeral for a faithful Orthodox
              > >
              > > Christian?
              > >
              > >>Unless the funeral is on Baffin Island (?!), I can't think of a
              place in
              > >>North America where you couldn't find a priest within a hundred
              > >
              > > miles or so.
              > >
              > >>In Christ,
              > >>Reader Andreas
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>On 8/13/07, axios19 <axios19@> wrote:
              > >>
              > >>> ..can a Tonsured Reader lead services at a funeral home or
              gravesite
              > >>>when a priest or deacon are not available?...are there any texts
              > >>>available ?...thank you ...
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >>
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > To learn more about reader services, see:
              > > http://pages.prodigy.net/frjohnwhiteford/horologion.htm
              > >
              > > To access this lists archives, go to:
              > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
              > > ogion.htm
              > >
              > > To access this lists archives, go to:
              > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
              > >
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              > --
              > Rdr Michael Bishop
              > 570 Saint Mary St
              > Baltimore MD 21201-1936
              > 410-225-7743
              >
              > http://www.Michael-Bishop.com
              >
              > See you at the Russian Festival
              > 1723 Fairmount Avenue * Baltimore MD 21231
              > 19-21 October 2007
              >
            • Philip Silouan Thompson
              ... In this case it s not so much a matter of asking the priest what s best to do - it s just the practical fact that we as readers are not supposed to serve
              Message 6 of 6 , Aug 14, 2007
                Reader Michael Bishop wrote:
                > Please keep in mind that often the priest also does not know the answer
                > and this is why some people are asking the questions. A good friend of
                > mine is a priest and he knows much less than I do about liturgical
                > rubrics and we were classmates at the seminary.
                >> I suggest you ask your priest for his blessing to do what you wish to
                >> do at the grave site, and ask him for instructions as to what you may do.
                >> ...
                >> Either way, talk to a priest. If the departed is not Orthodox, that
                >> is also an important factor. Again, ask your priest.

                In this case it's not so much a matter of asking the priest what's best
                to do - it's just the practical fact that we as readers are not supposed
                to serve without a specific blessing to do so.

                I serve reader Matins and Vespers on those weekdays when our priest
                can't be there. I know what services I have a blessing to do. But I
                can't just decide to add daily Compline or a Paraclisis, without the
                rector's blessing; as a reader I don't get to decide what services the
                parish will offer.

                I don't know of a version of the memorial service for readers. If the
                priest blesses, I imagine you could serve the All-Night Vigil for the
                Departed that's printed in the Book of Needs - do the usual
                abbreviations as for any reader vigil. Hope I never have to do that,
                though; by God's mercy there's a parish just a hundred miles west of us
                in Yakima, and a few more 150 miles north in Spokane - so if our priests
                were unavailable we could bring in a priest to serve a funeral.

                In Christ,

                Reader Silouan
                Walla Walla, Washington
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