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RE: [orthodox-readers] Annunciation / Holy Saturday Liturgical Texts

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  • James Morgan
    Dear Reader Andrew: You and I and some others are fighting against the tide here! I look wistfully at Archimandrite Ephrem s translations on www.anastasis.com
    Message 1 of 7 , Mar 17, 2007
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      Dear Reader Andrew:
      You and I and some others are fighting against the tide here! I look
      wistfully at Archimandrite Ephrem's translations on www.anastasis.com now
      and then but am stuck with the strange circumlocutions I have to chant from
      either Rdr. Isaac's or the OCA stuff. I am certain that there must be a
      dignified and theologically appropriate manner in which our hymnography
      could be translated into our daily English but sometimes I despair.
      And I am still struck with wonder at what Rdr.Isaac Lambertson hath wrought,
      don't get me wrong. But I get tired of all the 'effulgences' now and
      then....

      Yours for liturgical archeology and epigraphy,
      Rdr. James Morgan
      Olympia, WA

      PS Others, let's not start a war until after Pentecost! This is just an op
      ed by little me, the humble reader....

      -----Original Message-----
      From: axios19
      Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 4:39 AM
      To: orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [orthodox-readers] Annunciation / Holy Saturday Liturgical
      Texts

      ...why is the english so archaic in these texts ...? ...they are to be
      chanted in the name and on behalf on the assembly (peolpe of a spectrum of
      ages) who most likely will not have these texts in front of them ...our
      liturgical role as readers is a pastoral and ministerial one, namely to
      create an atmoshere of prayer ...even if we enunciate and avoid vibrato when
      we chant these texts it is so difficult to discern the words and meaning
      clearly ...we are in the 21st century not victotian times ...i do respect
      retainung the "thee" and "thou" in these texts in that they convey the
      spiritual respect, soverrignty and "otherness" of GOD but "hear me" sounds
      better than "harken unto me."..the OCA seems to have that "middle way" but
      they do not publish a full horologion ...i wish they did ...it is so
      unfortunate that jordanville and other groups are publishing comprehensive
      holrologions with this choice of english ...the english of the text should
      be chosen to promote
      an atmoshere of prayer and NOT nostalgia for victorian times or because
      they are available as a convenient comprehensive compendium ... your
      brother reader in XC, Tonsured Reader Andrew Ruiz-Madera....NYC...

      "Fr. John Whiteford" <frjohnwhiteford@...> wrote: Hello
      Folks,

      With thanks to Anna Voellmecke, Peter Fekula, and Nicholas Park, at the link
      below you will find texts for the Services of Annunication & Holy Saturday
      for 2007 (which will be re-usable in the year 2029):

      http://www.saintjonah.org/services/annunciation_holysat.htm

      Please let me know if you find any errors in them.

      -Fr. John Whiteford
    • Fr. John Whiteford
      One of the advantages of putting a liturgical text together is that you are the one that get s to decide how it should be done. Is someone wants to put a
      Message 2 of 7 , Mar 17, 2007
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        One of the advantages of putting a liturgical text together is that you are the one that get's to decide how it should be done. Is someone wants to put a you-who version together, no one is stopping them from doing so.

        As for why I prefer traditional Liturgical English, see:

        http://www.touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=12-04-110-r

        -Fr. John Whiteford

        axios19 <axios19@...> wrote:
        ...why is the english so archaic in these texts ...? ...they are to be chanted in the name and on behalf on the assembly (peolpe of a spectrum of ages) who most likely will not have these texts in front of them ...our liturgical role as readers is a pastoral and ministerial one, namely to create an atmoshere of prayer ...even if we enunciate and avoid vibrato when we chant these texts it is so difficult to discern the words and meaning clearly ...we are in the 21st century not victotian times ...i do respect retainung the "thee" and "thou" in these texts in that they convey the spiritual respect, soverrignty and "otherness" of GOD but "hear me" sounds better than "harken unto me."..the OCA seems to have that "middle way" but they do not publish a full horologion ...i wish they did ...it is so unfortunate that jordanville and other groups are publishing comprehensive holrologions with this choice of english ...the english of the text should be chosen to promote
        an atmoshere of prayer and NOT nostalgia for victorian times or because they are available as a convenient comprehensive compendium ... your brother reader in XC, Tonsured Reader Andrew Ruiz-Madera....NYC...

        "Fr. John Whiteford" wrote: Hello Folks,

        With thanks to Anna Voellmecke, Peter Fekula, and Nicholas Park, at the link below you will find texts for the Services of Annunication & Holy Saturday for 2007 (which will be re-usable in the year 2029):

        http://www.saintjonah.org/services/annunciation_holysat.htm

        Please let me know if you find any errors in them.

        -Fr. John Whiteford

        Fr. John Whiteford
        St. Jonah Orthodox Church
        Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
        ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
        Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
        Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






        ---------------------------------
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        To learn more about reader services, see:
        http://pages.prodigy.net/frjohnwhiteford/horologion.htm

        To access this lists archives, go to:
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
        ogion.htm

        To access this lists archives, go to:
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers

        Yahoo! Groups Links






        Fr. John Whiteford
        St. Jonah Orthodox Church
        Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
        ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
        Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
        Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Jeffrey Lee
        Although my children will tell you that I m quite ancient, I grew up in the late 60 s through the 80 s hardly the high point of the English language. However,
        Message 3 of 7 , Mar 18, 2007
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          Although my children will tell you that I'm quite ancient, I grew up
          in the late 60's through the 80's hardly the high point of the
          English language. However, I much prefer the more Elizabethan style
          English (reflecting the fact, perhaps, that I'm a recovering
          AngloCatholic). Age doesn't dictate what language you can manage. I
          find the older English deeper and richer. I found the Anglican
          Breviary to be a beautiful means of praying, but it did require that
          you learn a couple (really only a couple) of new words, and the older
          meaning for others. Most notably, you need to learn the word froward
          - which, if you have children will come in quite handy, and you need
          to learn that prevent, from pre and veni, means to come before.
          Beyond that, it wasn't very difficult, and it was quite lovely.

          That being said, there are limits. The language should be both
          intelligible, and reflective of the solemnity of the occasion
          (worship). So, going back to Elizabethan isn't bad. Going back to
          middle English would be a bit much. Its also part of the reason I'm
          not a big fan of all of the Koine still being used in GOA Churches.
          I'm enjoying learning Greek, but not even the native Greek speakers
          understand much of what is being said, if the dialect is 2000 years old.

          FYI, Fr. Ephraim, at St. Anthony's, publishes his texts in both
          Elizabethan and more modern English. Unfortunately that only
          encompasses the Divine Liturgy, Vespers, and part of Orthros at this
          point.


          On Mar 18, 2007, at 1:52 AM, Fr. John Whiteford wrote:

          > One of the advantages of putting a liturgical text together is that
          > you are the one that get's to decide how it should be done. Is
          > someone wants to put a you-who version together, no one is stopping
          > them from doing so.
          >
          > As for why I prefer traditional Liturgical English, see:
          >
          > http://www.touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=12-04-110-r
          >
          > -Fr. John Whiteford
          >
          > axios19 <axios19@...> wrote:
          > ...why is the english so archaic in these texts ...? ...they are to
          > be chanted in the name and on behalf on the assembly (peolpe of a
          > spectrum of ages) who most likely will not have these texts in
          > front of them ...our liturgical role as readers is a pastoral and
          > ministerial one, namely to create an atmoshere of prayer ...even if
          > we enunciate and avoid vibrato when we chant these texts it is so
          > difficult to discern the words and meaning clearly ...we are in the
          > 21st century not victotian times ...i do respect retainung the
          > "thee" and "thou" in these texts in that they convey the spiritual
          > respect, soverrignty and "otherness" of GOD but "hear me" sounds
          > better than "harken unto me."..the OCA seems to have that "middle
          > way" but they do not publish a full horologion ...i wish they
          > did ...it is so unfortunate that jordanville and other groups are
          > publishing comprehensive holrologions with this choice of
          > english ...the english of the text should be chosen to promote
          > an atmoshere of prayer and NOT nostalgia for victorian times or
          > because they are available as a convenient comprehensive
          > compendium ... your brother reader in XC, Tonsured Reader Andrew
          > Ruiz-Madera....NYC...
          >
          > "Fr. John Whiteford" wrote: Hello Folks,
          >
          > With thanks to Anna Voellmecke, Peter Fekula, and Nicholas Park, at
          > the link below you will find texts for the Services of Annunication
          > & Holy Saturday for 2007 (which will be re-usable in the year 2029):
          >
          > http://www.saintjonah.org/services/annunciation_holysat.htm
          >
          > Please let me know if you find any errors in them.
          >
          > -Fr. John Whiteford
          >
          > Fr. John Whiteford
          > St. Jonah Orthodox Church
          > Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
          > ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
          > Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
          > Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          > ---------------------------------
          > Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast
          > with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut.
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          > To learn more about reader services, see:
          > http://pages.prodigy.net/frjohnwhiteford/horologion.htm
          >
          > To access this lists archives, go to:
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
          > ogion.htm
          >
          > To access this lists archives, go to:
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-readers
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          > Fr. John Whiteford
          > St. Jonah Orthodox Church
          > Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
          > ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
          > Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
          > Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >

          -------
          Jeffrey Lee
          jeff@...

          War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and
          degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that
          nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for
          which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than
          his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of
          being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men
          than himself. - John Stuart Mill





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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