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OPML 1.1

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  • Rogers Cadenhead
    Glad to see the list firing up again. One of the first things we should address is the spec, which hasn t been updated to OPML 1.1, the current version in
    Message 1 of 15 , Dec 1, 2003
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      Glad to see the list firing up again.

      One of the first things we should address is the spec, which hasn't
      been updated to OPML 1.1, the current version in Radio UserLand.

      OPML 1.1 was announced here:

      http://www.opml.org/stories/storyReader$11

      It adds an optional CLOUD element to the HEAD element of an OPML
      file, supporting publish-subscribe notification. The syntax is
      borrowed from the same element in RSS:

      Publish-Subscribe Notification

      <cloud> is a new optional sub-element of <head>. It specifies a Web
      service that supports the rssCloud interface which can be implemented
      in HTTP-POST, XML-RPC or SOAP 1.1.

      Its purpose is to allow processes to register with a cloud to be
      notified of updates to the channel. For example:

      <cloud domain="data.ourfavoritesongs.com" port="80" path="/RPC2"
      registerProcedure="ourFavoriteSongs.rssPleaseNotify"
      protocol="xml-rpc"/>

      A full explanation of this element and the rssCloud interface is here
      [1].

      1: http://www.thetwowayweb.com/soapmeetsrss
      --
      Rogers Cadenhead, rogers@... on 12/01/2003
      Weblog: http://www.cadenhead.org/workbench
    • Dave Winer
      Rogers, thanks for kicking off the restart of this list. And thanks to everyone else for not objecting to the newly stated charter. I m optimistic about our
      Message 2 of 15 , Dec 2, 2003
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        Rogers, thanks for kicking off the restart of this list. And thanks to everyone else for not objecting to the newly stated charter. I'm optimistic about our being able to get work done this time around. I'm willing to use the tools that Yahoo provides to keep the list on-topic. There are over 170 subscribers [1], which is quite a lot, so it's potentially a very powerful community. My hope is that we can have something like the Berkman-Thursdays group at Harvard Law School, where we have a high standard of achievement and cooperation and we get things done. That group organized a conference and hosted over 200 people on two days. That's what can be done if people have a will to work together.

        Anyway, Rogers, I will take your notes on OPML 1.1 and turn them into a document on the opml.org website. I'm also going to move that site off the UserLand host and put it on one of the new servers I have running here in the Boston area. Also once the OPML 1.1 spec is adequately reviewed, I will transfer it to Berkman Center, as I did with the RSS 2.0 spec, and redistribute it under the Creative Commons license.

        Another area that needs attention is to sort out the common uses of attributes in different tools. Since this is XML, names are case-sensitive. And there is even some variability beyond that. The first step should be to survey all the existing tools, see what they produce and then collate the results. Then, once that's done, it may be possible to have a simple set of recommendations that enables more interop between tools. But first we have to see how far apart all the tools actually are. I'll get the ball rolling on this, unless someone else wants to take the lead. It's not a glamorous job, it requires that one be thorough and be good at tabulating information.

        Dave

        PS: I've cc'd this to the Berkman-Thursday list, in case any of you want to participate in the restart of the OPML developers list.

        [1] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/opml-dev/

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Morbus Iff
        ... Dave: AmphetaDesk was the first application to take the mySubscriptions.opml of Radio Userland and adopt it for it s own channel list. NetNewsWire followed
        Message 3 of 15 , Dec 2, 2003
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          >Another area that needs attention is to sort out the common uses of
          >attributes in different tools. Since this is XML, names are case-sensitive.
          >And there is even some variability beyond that. The first step should be to
          >survey all the existing tools, see what they produce and then collate the
          >results. Then, once that's done, it may be possible to have a simple set of

          Dave: AmphetaDesk was the first application to take the
          mySubscriptions.opml of Radio Userland and adopt it for it's own
          channel list. NetNewsWire followed thereafter. I haven't been
          near AmphetaDesk for a while, but off the top of my head:

          * I hate innerCaps, so I write attributes lowercase. I read both.

          * I believe you had "text=" as the title of the RSS feed. I
          use "title=", but the code converts "text" to "title".

          * Any attributes that AmphetaDesk doesn't explicitly use
          are read and written as if I did. Likewise, I provide
          an API to get at that "unused" data.

          More info, including sample OPML output is here:
          http://disobey.com/amphetadesk/pod_amphetadesk_mychannels.html

          I believe I've added two or three attributes not part
          of the original mySubscriptions.opml files I've seen:

          * filename: internal use for AmphetaDesk.
          * date_downloaded and _added. self explanatatory.
          * email: the nearest approximation to the
          channel's email address, if any.


          --
          Morbus Iff ( i put the demon back in codemonkey )
          Culture: http://www.disobey.com/ and http://www.gamegrene.com/
          My book, Spidering Hacks: http://amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0596005776/
          icq: 2927491 / aim: akaMorbus / yahoo: morbus_iff / jabber.org: morbus
        • Dave Winer
          Excellent. That s exactly the kind of report we need. Since Brent went next, maybe he could explain how he uses OPML, in a style similar to this explanation.
          Message 4 of 15 , Dec 2, 2003
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            Excellent. That's exactly the kind of report we need. Since Brent went next, maybe he could explain how he uses OPML, in a style similar to this explanation. Since he's not subscribed to OPML-DEV, I've cc'd him. Dave

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Morbus Iff
            To: opml-dev@yahoogroups.com ; opml-dev@yahoogroups.com
            Cc: berkman-thursday@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 3:10 PM
            Subject: Re: [opml-dev] OPML 1.1


            >Another area that needs attention is to sort out the common uses of
            >attributes in different tools. Since this is XML, names are case-sensitive.
            >And there is even some variability beyond that. The first step should be to
            >survey all the existing tools, see what they produce and then collate the
            >results. Then, once that's done, it may be possible to have a simple set of

            Dave: AmphetaDesk was the first application to take the
            mySubscriptions.opml of Radio Userland and adopt it for it's own
            channel list. NetNewsWire followed thereafter. I haven't been
            near AmphetaDesk for a while, but off the top of my head:

            * I hate innerCaps, so I write attributes lowercase. I read both.

            * I believe you had "text=" as the title of the RSS feed. I
            use "title=", but the code converts "text" to "title".

            * Any attributes that AmphetaDesk doesn't explicitly use
            are read and written as if I did. Likewise, I provide
            an API to get at that "unused" data.

            More info, including sample OPML output is here:
            http://disobey.com/amphetadesk/pod_amphetadesk_mychannels.html

            I believe I've added two or three attributes not part
            of the original mySubscriptions.opml files I've seen:

            * filename: internal use for AmphetaDesk.
            * date_downloaded and _added. self explanatatory.
            * email: the nearest approximation to the
            channel's email address, if any.


            --
            Morbus Iff ( i put the demon back in codemonkey )
            Culture: http://www.disobey.com/ and http://www.gamegrene.com/
            My book, Spidering Hacks: http://amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0596005776/
            icq: 2927491 / aim: akaMorbus / yahoo: morbus_iff / jabber.org: morbus


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          • Stan Krute
            Hi Dave ... Per an old thread on this list, I started and posted an OPML document that contains this sort of info. It still lives at :
            Message 5 of 15 , Dec 2, 2003
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              Hi Dave

              > Another area that needs attention is to sort out the
              > common uses of attributes in different tools. Since
              > this is XML, names are case-sensitive. And there is
              > even some variability beyond that. The first step
              > should be to survey all the existing tools, see what
              > they produce and then collate the results. Then, once
              > that's done, it may be possible to have a simple set of
              > recommendations that enables more interop between
              > tools. But first we have to see how far apart all the
              > tools actually are. I'll get the ball rolling on this,
              > unless someone else wants to take the lead. It's not a
              > glamorous job, it requires that one be
              > thorough and be good at tabulating information.

              Per an old thread on this list, I started and posted
              an OPML document that contains this sort of info. It
              still lives at :

              http://JavaOutlineEditor.org/OPML/OPML_Elements_and_Attributes.opml

              Last revisions to that document
              are almost two years old, January of 2002.

              I'd be happy to make revisions to that document based on folks
              postings here on the list or notes sent to me via email,
              whichever is easiest.

              Stan
            • Dave Winer
              Stan that looks very useful. Could you add Morbus s info to that. I think people should post their reports to the list, as long as it isn t overwhelming, and
              Message 6 of 15 , Dec 2, 2003
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                Stan that looks very useful. Could you add Morbus's info to that.

                I think people should post their reports to the list, as long as it isn't overwhelming, and you should merge them into the outline as they become available.

                Also, how about a list of apps you reviewed. Looks like you have "UserLand" and "JOE." There are now many others, basically all the aggregators do something with OPML.

                Dave


                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Stan Krute
                To: opml-dev@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 3:42 PM
                Subject: [opml-dev] Re: OPML 1.1


                Hi Dave

                > Another area that needs attention is to sort out the
                > common uses of attributes in different tools. Since
                > this is XML, names are case-sensitive. And there is
                > even some variability beyond that. The first step
                > should be to survey all the existing tools, see what
                > they produce and then collate the results. Then, once
                > that's done, it may be possible to have a simple set of
                > recommendations that enables more interop between
                > tools. But first we have to see how far apart all the
                > tools actually are. I'll get the ball rolling on this,
                > unless someone else wants to take the lead. It's not a
                > glamorous job, it requires that one be
                > thorough and be good at tabulating information.

                Per an old thread on this list, I started and posted
                an OPML document that contains this sort of info. It
                still lives at :

                http://JavaOutlineEditor.org/OPML/OPML_Elements_and_Attributes.opml

                Last revisions to that document
                are almost two years old, January of 2002.

                I'd be happy to make revisions to that document based on folks
                postings here on the list or notes sent to me via email,
                whichever is easiest.

                Stan


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              • Brent Simmons
                NetNewsWire imports and exports OPML subscriptions lists. It doesn t currently understand nested subscriptions lists, but that will change. (It will both
                Message 7 of 15 , Dec 2, 2003
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                  NetNewsWire imports and exports OPML subscriptions lists.

                  It doesn't currently understand nested subscriptions lists, but that
                  will change. (It will both import and export nested lists.)

                  ***Importing

                  It tries to be as forgiving as possible in what it accepts. It ignores
                  case. For the name of a feed it first looks at the text attribute, then
                  at the title attribute. For the home URL of a feed it looks at htmlUrl
                  then at url.

                  If an RSS URL doesn't exist, it does RSS auto-discovery to try to find
                  the feed. (This makes it possible to import blogrolling.com OPML files,
                  for instance.)

                  ***Exporting

                  It exports using ISO-8859 encoding, since that's most likely to be
                  compatible (with Radio and with Windows aggregators).

                  It sets the following attributes:

                  text -- name of feed
                  title -- name of feed (redundancy for compatibility sake)
                  description -- description of feed
                  type -- rss
                  version -- RSS (more redundancy for compatibility sake)
                  htmlUrl -- URL of home page
                  xmlUrl -- URL of feed

                  ***Sample OPML file

                  http://ranchero.com/downloads/MySubscriptions.opml

                  -Brent
                • Mark Fletcher
                  ... When importing OPML files, here s what Bloglines does: For every outline tag after the opening tag, we do: We look for the xmlurl attribute. If we find
                  Message 8 of 15 , Dec 2, 2003
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                    Dave Winer wrote:

                    >Another area that needs attention is to sort out the common uses of attributes in different tools. Since this is XML, names are case-sensitive. And there is even some variability beyond that. The first step should be to survey all the existing tools, see what they produce and then collate the results. Then, once that's done, it may be possible to have a simple set of recommendations that enables more interop between tools. But first we have to see how far apart all the tools actually are. I'll get the ball rolling on this, unless someone else wants to take the lead. It's not a glamorous job, it requires that one be thorough and be good at tabulating information.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    When importing OPML files, here's what Bloglines does:

                    For every 'outline' tag after the opening tag, we do:

                    We look for the 'xmlurl' attribute. If we find it, we add that as a
                    subscription. If we also find a 'title' attribute, we use that for the
                    name of the subscription.

                    If we don't find the 'xmlurl' attribute, we look for 'text'. If we don't
                    find 'text', we look for 'title'. If we find one of those, and we do not
                    find 'url', we add a new folder. All subscriptions found after this tag
                    and before the closing </outline> are then inserted in that folder. We
                    only support one level of folders, so nested folders are ignored (but
                    the subscriptions within them are not ignored).

                    We consider all attributes case insensitive.

                    Here's an example of what we output when exporting subscriptions. This
                    example has 2 subscriptions in the 'Press/Journalists' folder, and two
                    subscriptions at the top level:

                    <?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
                    <opml version="1.0">
                    <head>
                    <title>Bloglines Subscriptions</title>
                    <dateCreated>Tue, 2 Dec 2003 21:04:44 GMT</dateCreated>
                    <ownerEmail>markf@...</ownerEmail>
                    </head>
                    <body>
                    <outline title="Subscriptions">
                    <outline title="Press/Journalists">
                    <outline title="Wired News" htmlUrl="http://www.wired.com/" type="rss" xmlUrl="http://www.wired.com/news_drop/netcenter/netcenter.rdf" />
                    <outline title="Dan Gillmor's eJournal" htmlUrl="http://weblog.siliconvalley.com/column/dangillmor/" type="rss" xmlUrl="http://weblog.siliconvalley.com/column/dangillmor/index.xml" />
                    </outline>
                    <outline title="Weblogg-ed News" htmlUrl="http://www.weblogg-ed.com/" type="rss" xmlUrl="http://www.weblogg-ed.com/xml/rss.xml" />
                    <outline title="wingedpig.com" htmlUrl="http://www.wingedpig.com/" type="rss" xmlUrl="http://www.wingedpig.com/index.rdf" />
                    </outline>
                    </body>
                    </opml>


                    Mark
                    --
                    Mark Fletcher
                    Bloglines
                    http://www.bloglines.com
                  • Stan Krute
                    Hi Dave ... Yes. ... Sounds fine. Info on elements and attributes that are supported or not supported, and elements and attributes that a particular tool has
                    Message 9 of 15 , Dec 2, 2003
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                      Hi Dave

                      > Could you add Morbus's info to that.

                      Yes.

                      > I think people should post their reports to the list,
                      > as long as it isn't overwhelming, and you should merge
                      > them into the outline as they become available.

                      Sounds fine. Info on elements and attributes that
                      are supported or not supported, and elements and attributes
                      that a particular tool has introduced, are of interest.

                      > Also, how about a list of apps you reviewed. Looks like
                      > you have "UserLand" and "JOE." There are now many
                      > others, basically all the aggregators do something with
                      > OPML.

                      As folks supply info on support/non-support, I'll add that
                      data to particular elements/attributes.

                      I'll also add new OPML tools to the list at the node
                      "further info : OPML tools". In that regard, I've
                      just added a sub-node for RSS feed readers/news aggregators, and will
                      add info for starters digested from here:

                      http://www.hebig.org/blogs/archives/main/000877.php

                      Stan
                    • Jeremy Bowers
                      ... I think it would be worth having authors catalog what their software *outputs* as well. It s (somewhat) fine to accept any case tags, but OPML is specified
                      Message 10 of 15 , Dec 2, 2003
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                        Mark Fletcher wrote:
                        > We consider all attributes case insensitive.

                        I think it would be worth having authors catalog what their software
                        *outputs* as well. It's (somewhat) fine to accept any case tags, but
                        OPML is specified as XML, so the case should be honored and programs
                        outputting wrong cases should be considered broken according to the
                        current spec.

                        As a soon-to-be producer and consumer of OPML, I have to say this case
                        insensitivity is disturbing to me; it's not XML. I won't throw a
                        hissy-fit ;-) but I do think we need to make extra certain that at least
                        all generators meet the spec.
                      • Jeremy Bowers
                        ... Clarification: By catalog what their software outputs I mean actual specifications and promises, not just example OPML files their system outputs.
                        Message 11 of 15 , Dec 2, 2003
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                          Jeremy Bowers wrote:
                          > I think it would be worth having authors catalog what their software
                          > *outputs* as well. It's (somewhat) fine to accept any case tags, but
                          > OPML is specified as XML, so the case should be honored and programs
                          > outputting wrong cases should be considered broken according to the
                          > current spec.

                          Clarification: By "catalog what their software outputs" I mean actual
                          specifications and promises, not just example OPML files their system
                          outputs. Examples aren't specs.
                        • Rogers Cadenhead
                          ... It appears that Radio creates both text and title attributes for RSS feed titles. -- Rogers Cadenhead, rogers@cadenhead.org on 12/3/2003 Weblog:
                          Message 12 of 15 , Dec 3, 2003
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                            On Tue, 02 Dec 2003 15:10:11 -0500, Morbus Iff wrote:
                            > * I believe you had "text=" as the title of the RSS feed. I
                            > use "title=", but the code converts "text" to "title".

                            It appears that Radio creates both text and title attributes for RSS
                            feed titles.
                            --
                            Rogers Cadenhead, rogers@... on 12/3/2003
                            Weblog: http://www.cadenhead.org/workbench
                          • Dave Winer
                            It s true that examples aren t specs, but beggars can t be choosers. I ll take whatever information I can get in whatever form. Let s be detectives. I don t
                            Message 13 of 15 , Dec 3, 2003
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                              It's true that examples aren't specs, but beggars can't be choosers.

                              I'll take whatever information I can get in whatever form. Let's be detectives. I don't recall Columbo or Sherlock Holmes refusing a clue because it wasn't a spec. ;->

                              Dave

                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: Jeremy Bowers
                              To: opml-dev@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 4:35 PM
                              Subject: Re: [opml-dev] OPML 1.1


                              Jeremy Bowers wrote:
                              > I think it would be worth having authors catalog what their software
                              > *outputs* as well. It's (somewhat) fine to accept any case tags, but
                              > OPML is specified as XML, so the case should be honored and programs
                              > outputting wrong cases should be considered broken according to the
                              > current spec.

                              Clarification: By "catalog what their software outputs" I mean actual
                              specifications and promises, not just example OPML files their system
                              outputs. Examples aren't specs.


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                            • Stan@StanKrute.com
                              Howdy I ve incorporated the OPML usage info noted in this thread by: Rogers Cadenhead, Morbus Iff, Brent Simmons, Mark Fletcher, and Øyvind Kolås ... into
                              Message 14 of 15 , Dec 22, 2003
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                                Howdy

                                I've incorporated the OPML usage info noted
                                in this thread by:

                                Rogers Cadenhead, Morbus Iff, Brent Simmons,
                                Mark Fletcher, and Øyvind Kolås

                                ... into OPML_Elements_and_Attributes.opml

                                (which lives here:
                                http://JavaOutlineEditor.org/OPML/OPML_Elements_and_Attributes.opml )

                                Those folks might want to
                                take a look to see if I've got things
                                straight.

                                Other folks who work on OPML tools: please
                                post away to this thread RE your OPML usage.
                                I'll continue to incorporate data posted
                                to this Yahoo group into the file.

                                ( I have NOT yet added all the new tools,
                                e.g. agregators et al, that do some OPMLing.
                                It'll take some time ... )

                                Plus: expanding the process a bit:

                                I've opened up a Groove workspace wherein
                                folks can add to or modify
                                OPML_Elements_and_Attributes.opml directly
                                as regards their products' OPMLation.

                                I'me sending invites to this Groove workspace to
                                folks who've posted to this Yahoo group about tools
                                they work on and OPML. If
                                you don't get an invite, and want to join the
                                workspace, just drop me a personal email off-group
                                (Stan@...)and I'll send you an invite.
                                I'll also be sending invites to other folks who
                                seem involved in OPML tooldom.

                                [ If you don't have Groove,
                                there's a [free for personal use/free for 60 days
                                of business use] Groove Workspace Preview Edition
                                downloadable here: http://www.groove.net/downloads/groove/ ]

                                The Groove workspace can be particularly useful
                                for indicating your tools' support of the various
                                elements, attributes, and types. Takes a load of
                                detail work off me.

                                Homage and regards to all OPMLers ....

                                Stan
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