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  • Dave Winer
    I m doing a lot of work with OPML and want to start discussing it with other developers. So this is a heads-up, if you don t want to talk about applications,
    Message 1 of 15 , Nov 30, 2003
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      I'm doing a lot of work with OPML and want to start discussing it with other
      developers.

      So this is a heads-up, if you don't want to talk about applications, now is
      the time to unsubscribe.

      Read more about the charter of this list here.

      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/opml-dev/message/197

      Please stay on-topic -- applications of OPML only, no debates whether you
      like it or not, because that's off-topic.

      We're going to try to address as many practical issues as we can in the
      coming weeks and months.

      Dave
    • Rogers Cadenhead
      Glad to see the list firing up again. One of the first things we should address is the spec, which hasn t been updated to OPML 1.1, the current version in
      Message 2 of 15 , Dec 1, 2003
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        Glad to see the list firing up again.

        One of the first things we should address is the spec, which hasn't
        been updated to OPML 1.1, the current version in Radio UserLand.

        OPML 1.1 was announced here:

        http://www.opml.org/stories/storyReader$11

        It adds an optional CLOUD element to the HEAD element of an OPML
        file, supporting publish-subscribe notification. The syntax is
        borrowed from the same element in RSS:

        Publish-Subscribe Notification

        <cloud> is a new optional sub-element of <head>. It specifies a Web
        service that supports the rssCloud interface which can be implemented
        in HTTP-POST, XML-RPC or SOAP 1.1.

        Its purpose is to allow processes to register with a cloud to be
        notified of updates to the channel. For example:

        <cloud domain="data.ourfavoritesongs.com" port="80" path="/RPC2"
        registerProcedure="ourFavoriteSongs.rssPleaseNotify"
        protocol="xml-rpc"/>

        A full explanation of this element and the rssCloud interface is here
        [1].

        1: http://www.thetwowayweb.com/soapmeetsrss
        --
        Rogers Cadenhead, rogers@... on 12/01/2003
        Weblog: http://www.cadenhead.org/workbench
      • Dave Winer
        Rogers, thanks for kicking off the restart of this list. And thanks to everyone else for not objecting to the newly stated charter. I m optimistic about our
        Message 3 of 15 , Dec 2, 2003
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          Rogers, thanks for kicking off the restart of this list. And thanks to everyone else for not objecting to the newly stated charter. I'm optimistic about our being able to get work done this time around. I'm willing to use the tools that Yahoo provides to keep the list on-topic. There are over 170 subscribers [1], which is quite a lot, so it's potentially a very powerful community. My hope is that we can have something like the Berkman-Thursdays group at Harvard Law School, where we have a high standard of achievement and cooperation and we get things done. That group organized a conference and hosted over 200 people on two days. That's what can be done if people have a will to work together.

          Anyway, Rogers, I will take your notes on OPML 1.1 and turn them into a document on the opml.org website. I'm also going to move that site off the UserLand host and put it on one of the new servers I have running here in the Boston area. Also once the OPML 1.1 spec is adequately reviewed, I will transfer it to Berkman Center, as I did with the RSS 2.0 spec, and redistribute it under the Creative Commons license.

          Another area that needs attention is to sort out the common uses of attributes in different tools. Since this is XML, names are case-sensitive. And there is even some variability beyond that. The first step should be to survey all the existing tools, see what they produce and then collate the results. Then, once that's done, it may be possible to have a simple set of recommendations that enables more interop between tools. But first we have to see how far apart all the tools actually are. I'll get the ball rolling on this, unless someone else wants to take the lead. It's not a glamorous job, it requires that one be thorough and be good at tabulating information.

          Dave

          PS: I've cc'd this to the Berkman-Thursday list, in case any of you want to participate in the restart of the OPML developers list.

          [1] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/opml-dev/

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Morbus Iff
          ... Dave: AmphetaDesk was the first application to take the mySubscriptions.opml of Radio Userland and adopt it for it s own channel list. NetNewsWire followed
          Message 4 of 15 , Dec 2, 2003
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            >Another area that needs attention is to sort out the common uses of
            >attributes in different tools. Since this is XML, names are case-sensitive.
            >And there is even some variability beyond that. The first step should be to
            >survey all the existing tools, see what they produce and then collate the
            >results. Then, once that's done, it may be possible to have a simple set of

            Dave: AmphetaDesk was the first application to take the
            mySubscriptions.opml of Radio Userland and adopt it for it's own
            channel list. NetNewsWire followed thereafter. I haven't been
            near AmphetaDesk for a while, but off the top of my head:

            * I hate innerCaps, so I write attributes lowercase. I read both.

            * I believe you had "text=" as the title of the RSS feed. I
            use "title=", but the code converts "text" to "title".

            * Any attributes that AmphetaDesk doesn't explicitly use
            are read and written as if I did. Likewise, I provide
            an API to get at that "unused" data.

            More info, including sample OPML output is here:
            http://disobey.com/amphetadesk/pod_amphetadesk_mychannels.html

            I believe I've added two or three attributes not part
            of the original mySubscriptions.opml files I've seen:

            * filename: internal use for AmphetaDesk.
            * date_downloaded and _added. self explanatatory.
            * email: the nearest approximation to the
            channel's email address, if any.


            --
            Morbus Iff ( i put the demon back in codemonkey )
            Culture: http://www.disobey.com/ and http://www.gamegrene.com/
            My book, Spidering Hacks: http://amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0596005776/
            icq: 2927491 / aim: akaMorbus / yahoo: morbus_iff / jabber.org: morbus
          • Dave Winer
            Excellent. That s exactly the kind of report we need. Since Brent went next, maybe he could explain how he uses OPML, in a style similar to this explanation.
            Message 5 of 15 , Dec 2, 2003
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              Excellent. That's exactly the kind of report we need. Since Brent went next, maybe he could explain how he uses OPML, in a style similar to this explanation. Since he's not subscribed to OPML-DEV, I've cc'd him. Dave

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Morbus Iff
              To: opml-dev@yahoogroups.com ; opml-dev@yahoogroups.com
              Cc: berkman-thursday@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 3:10 PM
              Subject: Re: [opml-dev] OPML 1.1


              >Another area that needs attention is to sort out the common uses of
              >attributes in different tools. Since this is XML, names are case-sensitive.
              >And there is even some variability beyond that. The first step should be to
              >survey all the existing tools, see what they produce and then collate the
              >results. Then, once that's done, it may be possible to have a simple set of

              Dave: AmphetaDesk was the first application to take the
              mySubscriptions.opml of Radio Userland and adopt it for it's own
              channel list. NetNewsWire followed thereafter. I haven't been
              near AmphetaDesk for a while, but off the top of my head:

              * I hate innerCaps, so I write attributes lowercase. I read both.

              * I believe you had "text=" as the title of the RSS feed. I
              use "title=", but the code converts "text" to "title".

              * Any attributes that AmphetaDesk doesn't explicitly use
              are read and written as if I did. Likewise, I provide
              an API to get at that "unused" data.

              More info, including sample OPML output is here:
              http://disobey.com/amphetadesk/pod_amphetadesk_mychannels.html

              I believe I've added two or three attributes not part
              of the original mySubscriptions.opml files I've seen:

              * filename: internal use for AmphetaDesk.
              * date_downloaded and _added. self explanatatory.
              * email: the nearest approximation to the
              channel's email address, if any.


              --
              Morbus Iff ( i put the demon back in codemonkey )
              Culture: http://www.disobey.com/ and http://www.gamegrene.com/
              My book, Spidering Hacks: http://amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0596005776/
              icq: 2927491 / aim: akaMorbus / yahoo: morbus_iff / jabber.org: morbus


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            • Stan Krute
              Hi Dave ... Per an old thread on this list, I started and posted an OPML document that contains this sort of info. It still lives at :
              Message 6 of 15 , Dec 2, 2003
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                Hi Dave

                > Another area that needs attention is to sort out the
                > common uses of attributes in different tools. Since
                > this is XML, names are case-sensitive. And there is
                > even some variability beyond that. The first step
                > should be to survey all the existing tools, see what
                > they produce and then collate the results. Then, once
                > that's done, it may be possible to have a simple set of
                > recommendations that enables more interop between
                > tools. But first we have to see how far apart all the
                > tools actually are. I'll get the ball rolling on this,
                > unless someone else wants to take the lead. It's not a
                > glamorous job, it requires that one be
                > thorough and be good at tabulating information.

                Per an old thread on this list, I started and posted
                an OPML document that contains this sort of info. It
                still lives at :

                http://JavaOutlineEditor.org/OPML/OPML_Elements_and_Attributes.opml

                Last revisions to that document
                are almost two years old, January of 2002.

                I'd be happy to make revisions to that document based on folks
                postings here on the list or notes sent to me via email,
                whichever is easiest.

                Stan
              • Dave Winer
                Stan that looks very useful. Could you add Morbus s info to that. I think people should post their reports to the list, as long as it isn t overwhelming, and
                Message 7 of 15 , Dec 2, 2003
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                  Stan that looks very useful. Could you add Morbus's info to that.

                  I think people should post their reports to the list, as long as it isn't overwhelming, and you should merge them into the outline as they become available.

                  Also, how about a list of apps you reviewed. Looks like you have "UserLand" and "JOE." There are now many others, basically all the aggregators do something with OPML.

                  Dave


                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Stan Krute
                  To: opml-dev@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 3:42 PM
                  Subject: [opml-dev] Re: OPML 1.1


                  Hi Dave

                  > Another area that needs attention is to sort out the
                  > common uses of attributes in different tools. Since
                  > this is XML, names are case-sensitive. And there is
                  > even some variability beyond that. The first step
                  > should be to survey all the existing tools, see what
                  > they produce and then collate the results. Then, once
                  > that's done, it may be possible to have a simple set of
                  > recommendations that enables more interop between
                  > tools. But first we have to see how far apart all the
                  > tools actually are. I'll get the ball rolling on this,
                  > unless someone else wants to take the lead. It's not a
                  > glamorous job, it requires that one be
                  > thorough and be good at tabulating information.

                  Per an old thread on this list, I started and posted
                  an OPML document that contains this sort of info. It
                  still lives at :

                  http://JavaOutlineEditor.org/OPML/OPML_Elements_and_Attributes.opml

                  Last revisions to that document
                  are almost two years old, January of 2002.

                  I'd be happy to make revisions to that document based on folks
                  postings here on the list or notes sent to me via email,
                  whichever is easiest.

                  Stan


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                • Brent Simmons
                  NetNewsWire imports and exports OPML subscriptions lists. It doesn t currently understand nested subscriptions lists, but that will change. (It will both
                  Message 8 of 15 , Dec 2, 2003
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                    NetNewsWire imports and exports OPML subscriptions lists.

                    It doesn't currently understand nested subscriptions lists, but that
                    will change. (It will both import and export nested lists.)

                    ***Importing

                    It tries to be as forgiving as possible in what it accepts. It ignores
                    case. For the name of a feed it first looks at the text attribute, then
                    at the title attribute. For the home URL of a feed it looks at htmlUrl
                    then at url.

                    If an RSS URL doesn't exist, it does RSS auto-discovery to try to find
                    the feed. (This makes it possible to import blogrolling.com OPML files,
                    for instance.)

                    ***Exporting

                    It exports using ISO-8859 encoding, since that's most likely to be
                    compatible (with Radio and with Windows aggregators).

                    It sets the following attributes:

                    text -- name of feed
                    title -- name of feed (redundancy for compatibility sake)
                    description -- description of feed
                    type -- rss
                    version -- RSS (more redundancy for compatibility sake)
                    htmlUrl -- URL of home page
                    xmlUrl -- URL of feed

                    ***Sample OPML file

                    http://ranchero.com/downloads/MySubscriptions.opml

                    -Brent
                  • Mark Fletcher
                    ... When importing OPML files, here s what Bloglines does: For every outline tag after the opening tag, we do: We look for the xmlurl attribute. If we find
                    Message 9 of 15 , Dec 2, 2003
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                      Dave Winer wrote:

                      >Another area that needs attention is to sort out the common uses of attributes in different tools. Since this is XML, names are case-sensitive. And there is even some variability beyond that. The first step should be to survey all the existing tools, see what they produce and then collate the results. Then, once that's done, it may be possible to have a simple set of recommendations that enables more interop between tools. But first we have to see how far apart all the tools actually are. I'll get the ball rolling on this, unless someone else wants to take the lead. It's not a glamorous job, it requires that one be thorough and be good at tabulating information.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      When importing OPML files, here's what Bloglines does:

                      For every 'outline' tag after the opening tag, we do:

                      We look for the 'xmlurl' attribute. If we find it, we add that as a
                      subscription. If we also find a 'title' attribute, we use that for the
                      name of the subscription.

                      If we don't find the 'xmlurl' attribute, we look for 'text'. If we don't
                      find 'text', we look for 'title'. If we find one of those, and we do not
                      find 'url', we add a new folder. All subscriptions found after this tag
                      and before the closing </outline> are then inserted in that folder. We
                      only support one level of folders, so nested folders are ignored (but
                      the subscriptions within them are not ignored).

                      We consider all attributes case insensitive.

                      Here's an example of what we output when exporting subscriptions. This
                      example has 2 subscriptions in the 'Press/Journalists' folder, and two
                      subscriptions at the top level:

                      <?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
                      <opml version="1.0">
                      <head>
                      <title>Bloglines Subscriptions</title>
                      <dateCreated>Tue, 2 Dec 2003 21:04:44 GMT</dateCreated>
                      <ownerEmail>markf@...</ownerEmail>
                      </head>
                      <body>
                      <outline title="Subscriptions">
                      <outline title="Press/Journalists">
                      <outline title="Wired News" htmlUrl="http://www.wired.com/" type="rss" xmlUrl="http://www.wired.com/news_drop/netcenter/netcenter.rdf" />
                      <outline title="Dan Gillmor's eJournal" htmlUrl="http://weblog.siliconvalley.com/column/dangillmor/" type="rss" xmlUrl="http://weblog.siliconvalley.com/column/dangillmor/index.xml" />
                      </outline>
                      <outline title="Weblogg-ed News" htmlUrl="http://www.weblogg-ed.com/" type="rss" xmlUrl="http://www.weblogg-ed.com/xml/rss.xml" />
                      <outline title="wingedpig.com" htmlUrl="http://www.wingedpig.com/" type="rss" xmlUrl="http://www.wingedpig.com/index.rdf" />
                      </outline>
                      </body>
                      </opml>


                      Mark
                      --
                      Mark Fletcher
                      Bloglines
                      http://www.bloglines.com
                    • Stan Krute
                      Hi Dave ... Yes. ... Sounds fine. Info on elements and attributes that are supported or not supported, and elements and attributes that a particular tool has
                      Message 10 of 15 , Dec 2, 2003
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                        Hi Dave

                        > Could you add Morbus's info to that.

                        Yes.

                        > I think people should post their reports to the list,
                        > as long as it isn't overwhelming, and you should merge
                        > them into the outline as they become available.

                        Sounds fine. Info on elements and attributes that
                        are supported or not supported, and elements and attributes
                        that a particular tool has introduced, are of interest.

                        > Also, how about a list of apps you reviewed. Looks like
                        > you have "UserLand" and "JOE." There are now many
                        > others, basically all the aggregators do something with
                        > OPML.

                        As folks supply info on support/non-support, I'll add that
                        data to particular elements/attributes.

                        I'll also add new OPML tools to the list at the node
                        "further info : OPML tools". In that regard, I've
                        just added a sub-node for RSS feed readers/news aggregators, and will
                        add info for starters digested from here:

                        http://www.hebig.org/blogs/archives/main/000877.php

                        Stan
                      • Jeremy Bowers
                        ... I think it would be worth having authors catalog what their software *outputs* as well. It s (somewhat) fine to accept any case tags, but OPML is specified
                        Message 11 of 15 , Dec 2, 2003
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                          Mark Fletcher wrote:
                          > We consider all attributes case insensitive.

                          I think it would be worth having authors catalog what their software
                          *outputs* as well. It's (somewhat) fine to accept any case tags, but
                          OPML is specified as XML, so the case should be honored and programs
                          outputting wrong cases should be considered broken according to the
                          current spec.

                          As a soon-to-be producer and consumer of OPML, I have to say this case
                          insensitivity is disturbing to me; it's not XML. I won't throw a
                          hissy-fit ;-) but I do think we need to make extra certain that at least
                          all generators meet the spec.
                        • Jeremy Bowers
                          ... Clarification: By catalog what their software outputs I mean actual specifications and promises, not just example OPML files their system outputs.
                          Message 12 of 15 , Dec 2, 2003
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                            Jeremy Bowers wrote:
                            > I think it would be worth having authors catalog what their software
                            > *outputs* as well. It's (somewhat) fine to accept any case tags, but
                            > OPML is specified as XML, so the case should be honored and programs
                            > outputting wrong cases should be considered broken according to the
                            > current spec.

                            Clarification: By "catalog what their software outputs" I mean actual
                            specifications and promises, not just example OPML files their system
                            outputs. Examples aren't specs.
                          • Rogers Cadenhead
                            ... It appears that Radio creates both text and title attributes for RSS feed titles. -- Rogers Cadenhead, rogers@cadenhead.org on 12/3/2003 Weblog:
                            Message 13 of 15 , Dec 3, 2003
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                              On Tue, 02 Dec 2003 15:10:11 -0500, Morbus Iff wrote:
                              > * I believe you had "text=" as the title of the RSS feed. I
                              > use "title=", but the code converts "text" to "title".

                              It appears that Radio creates both text and title attributes for RSS
                              feed titles.
                              --
                              Rogers Cadenhead, rogers@... on 12/3/2003
                              Weblog: http://www.cadenhead.org/workbench
                            • Dave Winer
                              It s true that examples aren t specs, but beggars can t be choosers. I ll take whatever information I can get in whatever form. Let s be detectives. I don t
                              Message 14 of 15 , Dec 3, 2003
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                                It's true that examples aren't specs, but beggars can't be choosers.

                                I'll take whatever information I can get in whatever form. Let's be detectives. I don't recall Columbo or Sherlock Holmes refusing a clue because it wasn't a spec. ;->

                                Dave

                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: Jeremy Bowers
                                To: opml-dev@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 4:35 PM
                                Subject: Re: [opml-dev] OPML 1.1


                                Jeremy Bowers wrote:
                                > I think it would be worth having authors catalog what their software
                                > *outputs* as well. It's (somewhat) fine to accept any case tags, but
                                > OPML is specified as XML, so the case should be honored and programs
                                > outputting wrong cases should be considered broken according to the
                                > current spec.

                                Clarification: By "catalog what their software outputs" I mean actual
                                specifications and promises, not just example OPML files their system
                                outputs. Examples aren't specs.


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                              • Stan@StanKrute.com
                                Howdy I ve incorporated the OPML usage info noted in this thread by: Rogers Cadenhead, Morbus Iff, Brent Simmons, Mark Fletcher, and Øyvind Kolås ... into
                                Message 15 of 15 , Dec 22, 2003
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                                  Howdy

                                  I've incorporated the OPML usage info noted
                                  in this thread by:

                                  Rogers Cadenhead, Morbus Iff, Brent Simmons,
                                  Mark Fletcher, and Øyvind Kolås

                                  ... into OPML_Elements_and_Attributes.opml

                                  (which lives here:
                                  http://JavaOutlineEditor.org/OPML/OPML_Elements_and_Attributes.opml )

                                  Those folks might want to
                                  take a look to see if I've got things
                                  straight.

                                  Other folks who work on OPML tools: please
                                  post away to this thread RE your OPML usage.
                                  I'll continue to incorporate data posted
                                  to this Yahoo group into the file.

                                  ( I have NOT yet added all the new tools,
                                  e.g. agregators et al, that do some OPMLing.
                                  It'll take some time ... )

                                  Plus: expanding the process a bit:

                                  I've opened up a Groove workspace wherein
                                  folks can add to or modify
                                  OPML_Elements_and_Attributes.opml directly
                                  as regards their products' OPMLation.

                                  I'me sending invites to this Groove workspace to
                                  folks who've posted to this Yahoo group about tools
                                  they work on and OPML. If
                                  you don't get an invite, and want to join the
                                  workspace, just drop me a personal email off-group
                                  (Stan@...)and I'll send you an invite.
                                  I'll also be sending invites to other folks who
                                  seem involved in OPML tooldom.

                                  [ If you don't have Groove,
                                  there's a [free for personal use/free for 60 days
                                  of business use] Groove Workspace Preview Edition
                                  downloadable here: http://www.groove.net/downloads/groove/ ]

                                  The Groove workspace can be particularly useful
                                  for indicating your tools' support of the various
                                  elements, attributes, and types. Takes a load of
                                  detail work off me.

                                  Homage and regards to all OPMLers ....

                                  Stan
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