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Re: [on3] Kemtron Shay kit (...in general)

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  • ebtnut@aol.com
    A couple of things to contemplate, having built one 30 or more years ago. The basic kit goes together reasonably well. One of the big issues to deal with is
    Message 1 of 22 , Feb 1, 2012
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      A couple of things to contemplate, having built one 30 or more years ago.  The basic kit goes together reasonably well.  One of the big issues to deal with is the bunker wrapper.  Getting all the bends even is real chore.  My (long-gone) LHS had a machined aluminum bening form that someone had made for this purpose, and it really made life better.  The other thing I had done was have a friend precision bore the crankshaft bearings to assure a staight shaft alignment.  I also used the Grandt Line drive with the Faulhaber micro-motor and 59-1 gearhead.  Mine has been a great runner from the get-go and still sees regular time on the railroad. 
       
      DM 


      -----Original Message-----
      From: Richard Brennan <brennan8@...>
      To: on3 <on3@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Tue, Jan 31, 2012 4:48 pm
      Subject: [on3] Kemtron Shay kit (...in general)

       
      All

      Over the past few years, there have been ongoing comments regarding
      what a <deleted> the Kemtron Shay kits are to build and get running properly.

      At least one member of the list will seemingly deal with -any- Shay
      EXCEPT a Kemtron!

      So... as the owner of a box of random brass parts labeled "Shay
      Kit"... where can I find guidance on successfully getting this on-track?

      Are there any written tutorials/clinics/notes that gather together
      the many hints and caveats?

      ...or is it consigned to a dark corner of the closet for yet another
      decade. <sigh>

      --------------------
      Richard Brennan - San Leandro CA
      --------------------

    • rickshoup
      Someone discussed how the wooden walkway was fastened to the boiler on Shays. I asked a friend who maintains the East Broad Top 2-8-2 how his walkway was
      Message 2 of 22 , Feb 1, 2012
      • 0 Attachment
        Someone discussed how the wooden walkway was fastened to the boiler on Shays.
        I asked a friend who maintains the East Broad Top 2-8-2 how his walkway was fastened to the boiler.
        and this was his reply.
         
        The guy is basically saying that the running boards (the things you walk on) are braced off the frame of the shay. This is not how the EBT engines running boards are attached. The EBT engines have heavy metal straps riveted to the boiler, on which the wooden running boards are bolted.

        Hope this helps,
        Nevin
        Many thanks,
        Rick Shoup.

         
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 7:48 PM
        Subject: RE: [on3] Kemtron shay motor mount

         

        Since this shay had a grandt gear drive but a wimpy gear head motor, that cup is not present. I purchased the faulhaber gear motor off ebay.
        Rich Johnson


        To: on3@yahoogroups.com
        From: masonbogie@...
        Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 19:05:06 -0500
        Subject: Re: [on3] Kemtron shay motor mount

         
        I'm not talking about universal joint.  What holds the motor is a cup that press fits over the face of the motor and which then mounts to the bracket attached to the truck.

        George Sebastian-Coleman
        11 Taine Mountain Road
        Unionville CT 06085




        On Jan 31, 2012, at 9:11 AM, Richard Johnson wrote:

         

        I have the cub and ball socket, what I need to figure out how to float the motor over top the truck properly.
        Rich Johnson

        www.RichardSJohnson.net
         
        "Those who enjoy freedom must endeavor to preserve it."

         

        To: on3@yahoogroups.com
        From: masonbogie@...
        Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 05:58:10 -0500
        Subject: Re: [on3] Kemtron shay motor mount

         
        Grandt uses a press fit cup to hold the moto an that attached to the mount. The cups may still be available. 

        Sent from my iPod

        On Jan 30, 2012, at 10:58 PM, Richard Johnson <killroy321@...> wrote:

         



        My first kemtron shay that I got last year, had a gearhead motor in it and it ran ok. But, I found out that it wouldnt pull any cars up a grade. The motor acctually stalled out.  The wheels would stop turning and the shay flat stopped with just two cars on a 2.6 grade.
        It was a weak ass motor.
        So, I bought one of the faulhaber motors that grandt used to supply since my shay allready has the grandt gears. 
         
        So, my question, my shay has the gear on the rear axle and a brass tab that comes up from the front of the tuck bolster and then makes a 90 degree bend and back, then verticle where the old motor was superglued in place. 
         
        What is the reccomedned/ best way to install that faulhaber on the grandt drive?
        Im not a machinist and have only limited skills with the brass, IE a small torch and a big soldering iron and an american beauty resistance unit.
        Regards
        Rich Johnson

        www.RichardSJohnson.net
         
        "Those who enjoy freedom must endeavor to preserve it."





      • Lee Snover
        Hi Rick, Nope, no comparison, except the cover over the 3 cyl engine. Shays use a triangular arrangement, the basic strap goes over the frame, to the ends of
        Message 3 of 22 , Feb 1, 2012
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          Hi Rick,

          Nope, no comparison, except the cover over the 3 cyl engine. Shays
          use a triangular arrangement, the basic strap goes over the frame,
          to the ends of the sides of the running boards, where another short
          strap is attached, that then angles downward till it gets fastened on
          the bottom flange of the frame I beam. Walkways are then bolted to
          the top of the ist. straps. These are very thick straps, not thin
          sheet metal. the EBT Mikes use a casting to support the running
          boards, which is fastened to the boiler.

          Best,
          Lee


          On Feb 1, 2012, at 10:58 AM, rickshoup wrote:

          >
          >
          > Someone discussed how the wooden walkway was fastened to the boiler
          > on Shays.
          > I asked a friend who maintains the East Broad Top 2-8-2 how his
          > walkway was fastened to the boiler.
          > and this was his reply.
          >
          > The guy is basically saying that the running boards (the things you
          > walk on) are braced off the frame of the shay. This is not how the
          > EBT engines running boards are attached. The EBT engines have heavy
          > metal straps riveted to the boiler, on which the wooden running
          > boards are bolted.
          >
          > Hope this helps,
          > Nevin
          > Many thanks,
          > Rick Shoup.
          >
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: Richard Johnson
          > To: on3@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 7:48 PM
          > Subject: RE: [on3] Kemtron shay motor mount
          >
          >
          >
          > Since this shay had a grandt gear drive but a wimpy gear head
          > motor, that cup is not present. I purchased the faulhaber gear
          > motor off ebay.
          > Rich Johnson
          >
          > To: on3@yahoogroups.com
          > From: masonbogie@...
          > Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 19:05:06 -0500
          > Subject: Re: [on3] Kemtron shay motor mount
          >
          >
          > I'm not talking about universal joint. What holds the motor is a
          > cup that press fits over the face of the motor and which then
          > mounts to the bracket attached to the truck.
          >
          > George Sebastian-Coleman
          > 11 Taine Mountain Road
          > Unionville CT 06085
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > On Jan 31, 2012, at 9:11 AM, Richard Johnson wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          > I have the cub and ball socket, what I need to figure out how to
          > float the motor over top the truck properly.
          > Rich Johnson
          >
          > www.RichardSJohnson.net
          >
          > "Those who enjoy freedom must endeavor to preserve it."
          >
          >
          > To: on3@yahoogroups.com
          > From: masonbogie@...
          > Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 05:58:10 -0500
          > Subject: Re: [on3] Kemtron shay motor mount
          >
          >
          > Grandt uses a press fit cup to hold the moto an that attached to
          > the mount. The cups may still be available.
          >
          > Sent from my iPod
          >
          > On Jan 30, 2012, at 10:58 PM, Richard Johnson
          > <killroy321@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > My first kemtron shay that I got last year, had a gearhead motor in
          > it and it ran ok. But, I found out that it wouldnt pull any cars up
          > a grade. The motor acctually stalled out. The wheels would stop
          > turning and the shay flat stopped with just two cars on a 2.6 grade.
          > It was a weak ass motor.
          > So, I bought one of the faulhaber motors that grandt used to supply
          > since my shay allready has the grandt gears.
          >
          > So, my question, my shay has the gear on the rear axle and a brass
          > tab that comes up from the front of the tuck bolster and then makes
          > a 90 degree bend and back, then verticle where the old motor was
          > superglued in place.
          >
          > What is the reccomedned/ best way to install that faulhaber on the
          > grandt drive?
          > Im not a machinist and have only limited skills with the brass, IE
          > a small torch and a big soldering iron and an american beauty
          > resistance unit.
          > Regards
          > Rich Johnson
          >
          > www.RichardSJohnson.net
          >
          > "Those who enjoy freedom must endeavor to preserve it."
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
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        • dave_grandt
          If you are able to come by my booth at O Scale West next week, I can show you a couple of finisned installations done by my father.
          Message 4 of 22 , Feb 1, 2012
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            If you are able to come by my booth at O Scale West next week, I can show you a couple of finisned installations done by my father.


            --- In on3@yahoogroups.com, Richard Brennan <brennan8@...> wrote:
            >
            > All
            >
            > Over the past few years, there have been ongoing comments regarding
            > what a <deleted> the Kemtron Shay kits are to build and get running properly.
            >
            > So... as the owner of a box of random brass parts labeled "Shay
            > Kit"... where can I find guidance on successfully getting this on-track?
            >
            > --------------------
            > Richard Brennan - San Leandro CA
            > --------------------
            >
          • rickshoup
            Lee, Thanks. I had the good luck to first ride behind a Cass and then several years later Roaring Camp & Big Trees shay and do a nice walk around. On one of
            Message 5 of 22 , Feb 1, 2012
            • 0 Attachment
              Lee,
              Thanks.
              I had the good luck to first ride behind a Cass and then several years later
              Roaring Camp & Big Trees shay and do a nice walk around.
              On one of the Cass trips I was invited into the cab. A real thrill. Got to
              see how the engine crew worked.
              rick.

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Lee Snover" <leetown@...>
              To: <on3@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 11:19 AM
              Subject: Re: [on3] Kemtron shay motor mount


              > Hi Rick,
              >
              > Nope, no comparison, except the cover over the 3 cyl engine. Shays
              > use a triangular arrangement, the basic strap goes over the frame,
              > to the ends of the sides of the running boards, where another short
              > strap is attached, that then angles downward till it gets fastened on
              > the bottom flange of the frame I beam. Walkways are then bolted to
              > the top of the ist. straps. These are very thick straps, not thin
              > sheet metal. the EBT Mikes use a casting to support the running
              > boards, which is fastened to the boiler.
              >
              > Best,
              > Lee
              >
              >
              > On Feb 1, 2012, at 10:58 AM, rickshoup wrote:
              >
              >>
              >>
              >> Someone discussed how the wooden walkway was fastened to the boiler
              >> on Shays.
              >> I asked a friend who maintains the East Broad Top 2-8-2 how his
              >> walkway was fastened to the boiler.
              >> and this was his reply.
              >>
              >> The guy is basically saying that the running boards (the things you
              >> walk on) are braced off the frame of the shay. This is not how the
              >> EBT engines running boards are attached. The EBT engines have heavy
              >> metal straps riveted to the boiler, on which the wooden running
              >> boards are bolted.
              >>
              >> Hope this helps,
              >> Nevin
              >> Many thanks,
              >> Rick Shoup.
              >>
              >>
              >> ----- Original Message -----
              >> From: Richard Johnson
              >> To: on3@yahoogroups.com
              >> Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 7:48 PM
              >> Subject: RE: [on3] Kemtron shay motor mount
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> Since this shay had a grandt gear drive but a wimpy gear head
              >> motor, that cup is not present. I purchased the faulhaber gear
              >> motor off ebay.
              >> Rich Johnson
              >>
              >> To: on3@yahoogroups.com
              >> From: masonbogie@...
              >> Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 19:05:06 -0500
              >> Subject: Re: [on3] Kemtron shay motor mount
              >>
              >>
              >> I'm not talking about universal joint. What holds the motor is a
              >> cup that press fits over the face of the motor and which then
              >> mounts to the bracket attached to the truck.
              >>
              >> George Sebastian-Coleman
              >> 11 Taine Mountain Road
              >> Unionville CT 06085
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> On Jan 31, 2012, at 9:11 AM, Richard Johnson wrote:
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> I have the cub and ball socket, what I need to figure out how to
              >> float the motor over top the truck properly.
              >> Rich Johnson
              >>
              >> www.RichardSJohnson.net
              >>
              >> "Those who enjoy freedom must endeavor to preserve it."
              >>
              >>
              >> To: on3@yahoogroups.com
              >> From: masonbogie@...
              >> Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 05:58:10 -0500
              >> Subject: Re: [on3] Kemtron shay motor mount
              >>
              >>
              >> Grandt uses a press fit cup to hold the moto an that attached to
              >> the mount. The cups may still be available.
              >>
              >> Sent from my iPod
              >>
              >> On Jan 30, 2012, at 10:58 PM, Richard Johnson
              >> <killroy321@...> wrote:
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> My first kemtron shay that I got last year, had a gearhead motor in
              >> it and it ran ok. But, I found out that it wouldnt pull any cars up
              >> a grade. The motor acctually stalled out. The wheels would stop
              >> turning and the shay flat stopped with just two cars on a 2.6 grade.
              >> It was a weak ass motor.
              >> So, I bought one of the faulhaber motors that grandt used to supply
              >> since my shay allready has the grandt gears.
              >>
              >> So, my question, my shay has the gear on the rear axle and a brass
              >> tab that comes up from the front of the tuck bolster and then makes
              >> a 90 degree bend and back, then verticle where the old motor was
              >> superglued in place.
              >>
              >> What is the reccomedned/ best way to install that faulhaber on the
              >> grandt drive?
              >> Im not a machinist and have only limited skills with the brass, IE
              >> a small torch and a big soldering iron and an american beauty
              >> resistance unit.
              >> Regards
              >> Rich Johnson
              >>
              >> www.RichardSJohnson.net
              >>
              >> "Those who enjoy freedom must endeavor to preserve it."
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> <!-- #ygrp-mkp { border: 1px solid #d8d8d8; font-family: Arial;
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              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Remember, additional On3 photos and files can now be found at:
              >
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/On3photos
              >
              > ThanksYahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
            • Richard Johnson
              Where is O scale west? Rich johnson To: on3@yahoogroups.com From: davegrandt@pacbell.net Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 16:45:46 +0000 Subject: [on3] Re: Kemtron Shay
              Message 6 of 22 , Feb 1, 2012
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                Where is O scale west?
                Rich johnson


                To: on3@yahoogroups.com
                From: davegrandt@...
                Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 16:45:46 +0000
                Subject: [on3] Re: Kemtron Shay kit (...in general)

                 
                If you are able to come by my booth at O Scale West next week, I can show you a couple of finisned installations done by my father.

                --- In on3@yahoogroups.com, Richard Brennan <brennan8@...> wrote:
                >
                > All
                >
                > Over the past few years, there have been ongoing comments regarding
                > what a <deleted> the Kemtron Shay kits are to build and get running properly.
                >
                > So... as the owner of a box of random brass parts labeled "Shay
                > Kit"... where can I find guidance on successfully getting this on-track?
                >
                > --------------------
                > Richard Brennan - San Leandro CA
                > --------------------
                >


              • Horace
                Having bilut 7 of these beasts, including a three truck one I should be able to help. FIRST do not drill the axle holes in the side frame until you check the
                Message 7 of 22 , Feb 1, 2012
                • 0 Attachment
                  Having bilut 7 of these beasts, including a three truck one I should be able to help.
                  FIRST do not drill the axle holes in the side frame until you check the spacing on the geared side. The spotted marks on the non geared side over the years got off. I built three for others and each tried to do the trucks first and the side frames had to be replaced. Also the valve gear in later ones had very poor castings.

                  Any questions please send off group

                  Horace

                  --- In on3@yahoogroups.com, JGG KahnSr <jacekahn@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > "When in doubt, follow the instructions..." The Kemtron/PSC Shay booklet is a good place to start; probably thirty and moreyears ago Muncel Chang (who apparently had built about as many as Lee Snover over the years) had an article in the Gazetteon how he assembled them. I collect photocopies of any and all information against the day I feel sufficient leisure to startmy last kit (not that I have actually built any others, but that I've had several pass through my hands), which has benefitedfrom all the other kits I've put back into circulation: Grandt drive, cab interior, and (pretty rare, I think) a set of standard gagewheelsets picked up at a train show a very long time ago.Enough modelers do seem to have built them and got them running that anyone who can solder, drill and tap, should beable to assemble one with a bit of patience.
                  >
                  > Jace Kahn
                  >
                  > General Manager
                  > Ceres & Canisteo RR Co./Champlain County Traction Co.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > > To: on3@yahoogroups.com
                  > > From: brennan8@...
                  > > Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 13:48:37 -0800
                  > > Subject: [on3] Kemtron Shay kit (...in general)
                  > >
                  > > All
                  > >
                  > > Over the past few years, there have been ongoing comments regarding
                  > > what a <deleted> the Kemtron Shay kits are to build and get running properly.
                  > >
                  > > At least one member of the list will seemingly deal with -any- Shay
                  > > EXCEPT a Kemtron!
                  > >
                  > > So... as the owner of a box of random brass parts labeled "Shay
                  > > Kit"... where can I find guidance on successfully getting this on-track?
                  > >
                  > > Are there any written tutorials/clinics/notes that gather together
                  > > the many hints and caveats?
                  > >
                  > > ...or is it consigned to a dark corner of the closet for yet another
                  > > decade. <sigh>
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --------------------
                  > > Richard Brennan - San Leandro CA
                  > > --------------------
                  >
                • Doug MacLeod
                  Rich, O Scale West is at Santa Clara Convention Center. Starts a week from today, February 9 through Saturday 11. http://www.oscalewest.com/ I ll probably
                  Message 8 of 22 , Feb 2, 2012
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                    Rich,

                        O Scale West is at Santa Clara Convention Center.  Starts a week from today, February 9 through Saturday 11.  http://www.oscalewest.com/    I'll probably be at the Proto 48  table.  Stop by and say hello if you can make it.

                    Doug MacLeod, Roseville, CA
                    www.macleodwestern.com

                     

                    Re: O scale west /was Re: Kemtron Shay kit (...in general)

                    Posted by: "Richard Johnson" killroy321@...   drgw464

                    Wed Feb 1, 2012 9:03 am (PST)



                    Where is O scale west?
                    Rich johnson

                    To: on3@yahoogroups. com
                    From: davegrandt@pacbell. net
                    Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 16:45:46 +0000
                    Subject: [on3] Re: Kemtron Shay kit (...in general)

                    If you are able to come by my booth at O Scale West next week, I can show you a couple of finisned installations done by my father.

                  • Richard Johnson
                    Ugh, why is it the good meets are always in Nor Cal. Too far from San Diego (aka at the end of the world, where you have to cross the barren wasteland to the
                    Message 9 of 22 , Feb 2, 2012
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Ugh, why is it the good meets are always in Nor Cal.
                      Too far from San Diego (aka at the end of the world, where you have to cross the barren wasteland to the north or the desert to the east to get anywhere).
                      Always wanted to make it to a narrow gauge convention too but have never been able to.
                      Well, maybe someday in 30 years when I retire, if I ever can.
                      Rich Johnson


                      To: on3@yahoogroups.com
                      From: dmacleod@...
                      Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2012 12:44:15 -0800
                      Subject: [on3] Re: O scale west /was Re: Kemtron Shay kit (...in general)

                       

                      Rich,

                          O Scale West is at Santa Clara Convention Center.  Starts a week from today, February 9 through Saturday 11.  http://www.oscalewest.com/    I'll probably be at the Proto 48  table.  Stop by and say hello if you can make it.

                      Doug MacLeod, Roseville, CA
                      www.macleodwestern.com

                       

                      Re: O scale west /was Re: Kemtron Shay kit (...in general)

                      Posted by: "Richard Johnson" killroy321@...   drgw464

                      Wed Feb 1, 2012 9:03 am (PST)



                      Where is O scale west?
                      Rich johnson

                      To: on3@yahoogroups. com
                      From: davegrandt@pacbell. net
                      Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 16:45:46 +0000
                      Subject: [on3] Re: Kemtron Shay kit (...in general)

                      If you are able to come by my booth at O Scale West next week, I can show you a couple of finisned installations done by my father.


                    • William Uffelman
                      Check price on Southwest for Saturday trip to San Jose -- worth it!   Bill Uffelman In the wastelands of Las Vegas NV ... From: Richard Johnson
                      Message 10 of 22 , Feb 2, 2012
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Check price on Southwest for Saturday trip to San Jose -- worth it!
                         
                        Bill Uffelman
                        In the wastelands of Las Vegas NV

                        --- On Thu, 2/2/12, Richard Johnson <killroy321@...> wrote:

                        From: Richard Johnson <killroy321@...>
                        Subject: RE: [on3] Re: O scale west /was Re: Kemtron Shay kit (...in general)
                        To: on3@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Thursday, February 2, 2012, 2:25 PM

                         
                        Ugh, why is it the good meets are always in Nor Cal.
                        Too far from San Diego (aka at the end of the world, where you have to cross the barren wasteland to the north or the desert to the east to get anywhere).
                        Always wanted to make it to a narrow gauge convention too but have never been able to.
                        Well, maybe someday in 30 years when I retire, if I ever can.
                        Rich Johnson


                        To: on3@yahoogroups.com
                        From: dmacleod@...
                        Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2012 12:44:15 -0800
                        Subject: [on3] Re: O scale west /was Re: Kemtron Shay kit (...in general)

                         

                        Rich,

                            O Scale West is at Santa Clara Convention Center.  Starts a week from today, February 9 through Saturday 11.  http://www.oscalewest.com/    I'll probably be at the Proto 48  table.  Stop by and say hello if you can make it.

                        Doug MacLeod, Roseville, CA
                        www.macleodwestern.com

                         

                        Re: O scale west /was Re: Kemtron Shay kit (...in general)

                        Posted by: "Richard Johnson" killroy321@...   drgw464

                        Wed Feb 1, 2012 9:03 am (PST)



                        Where is O scale west?
                        Rich johnson

                        To: on3@yahoogroups. com
                        From: davegrandt@pacbell. net
                        Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 16:45:46 +0000
                        Subject: [on3] Re: Kemtron Shay kit (...in general)

                        If you are able to come by my booth at O Scale West next week, I can show you a couple of finisned installations done by my father.


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