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Re: [on3] C&TS

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  • rgs20@icehouse.net
    Nothing new on NGDF as of a few minutes ago. I would guess the engineering firm will need a few days to complete their work, then reply. This is a bit more
    Message 1 of 13 , Jul 1, 2010
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      Nothing new on NGDF as of a few minutes ago. I would guess the
      engineering firm will need a few days to complete their work, then reply.
      This is a bit more complicated than the wood trestle the movie people
      burned by accident on the east end of the railroad.

      Charlie Mutschler
      -30-

      > You might check the Narrow Gauge Discussion site
      >
      > http://ngdiscussion.net/phorum/list.php?1
      >
      > Ken
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: Randall Lee
      > To: On3 group
      > Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 9:07 PM
      > Subject: [on3] C&TS
      >
      >
      >
      > Howdy,
      > Does anyone have any additional information on Lobato trestle?
      > The C&TS web site says they may have it repaired in a few weeks.
      > Randy
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • ebtnut@aol.com
      The fundamental issue is going to be whether or not the heat from the fire weakend the steel support girders. If it is determined that they are OK, then it
      Message 2 of 13 , Jul 1, 2010
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        The fundamental issue is going to be whether or not the heat from the fire weakend the steel support girders.  If it is determined that they are OK, then it will be a matter of re-laying the ties and rails. 



        -----Original Message-----
        From: rgs20@...
        To: on3@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thu, Jul 1, 2010 8:03 am
        Subject: Re: [on3] C&TS

         
        Nothing new on NGDF as of a few minutes ago. I would guess the
        engineering firm will need a few days to complete their work, then reply.
        This is a bit more complicated than the wood trestle the movie people
        burned by accident on the east end of the railroad.

        Charlie Mutschler
        -30-

        > You might check the Narrow Gauge Discussion site
        >
        > http://ngdiscussion.net/phorum/list.php?1
        >
        > Ken
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: Randall Lee
        > To: On3 group
        > Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 9:07 PM
        > Subject: [on3] C&TS
        >
        >
        >
        > Howdy,
        > Does anyone have any additional information on Lobato trestle?
        > The C&TS web site says they may have it repaired in a few weeks.
        > Randy
        >
        >
        >
        >

      • Ken Ruble
        This is something I don t understand. How can a fire weaken the steel girders? If the steel is cold-rolled, then I can see it relieving the stresses and then
        Message 3 of 13 , Jul 1, 2010
        • 0 Attachment
          
          This is something I don't understand. How can a fire weaken the steel girders? If the steel is cold-rolled, then I can see it relieving the stresses and then the girders buckling but I thought the bridge was old enough where they would have used hot-rolled steel which does not contain such stresses.
           
          Ken
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2010 6:04 AM
          Subject: Re: [on3] C&TS

           

          The fundamental issue is going to be whether or not the heat from the fire weakend the steel support girders.  If it is determined that they are OK, then it will be a matter of re-laying the ties and rails. 



          -----Original Message-----
          From: rgs20@icehouse. net
          To: on3@yahoogroups. com
          Sent: Thu, Jul 1, 2010 8:03 am
          Subject: Re: [on3] C&TS

           
          Nothing new on NGDF as of a few minutes ago. I would guess the
          engineering firm will need a few days to complete their work, then reply.
          This is a bit more complicated than the wood trestle the movie people
          burned by accident on the east end of the railroad.

          Charlie Mutschler
          -30-

          > You might check the Narrow Gauge Discussion site
          >
          > http://ngdiscussion .net/phorum/ list.php? 1
          >
          > Ken
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: Randall Lee
          > To: On3 group
          > Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 9:07 PM
          > Subject: [on3] C&TS
          >
          >
          >
          > Howdy,
          > Does anyone have any additional information on Lobato trestle?
          > The C&TS web site says they may have it repaired in a few weeks.
          > Randy
          >
          >
          >
          >

        • Mike O'Neill
          Don t know about the structural design, but equipment is on the move: http://www.goatbbs.com/cgi-bin/bbs50/webbbs_config.cgi/noframes/read/71842#71842
          Message 4 of 13 , Jul 1, 2010
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            Don't know about the structural design, but equipment is on the move: 

            Mike
            Parker, CO

            On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 7:58 AM, Ken Ruble <kenruble@...> wrote:
             

            

            This is something I don't understand. How can a fire weaken the steel girders? If the steel is cold-rolled, then I can see it relieving the stresses and then the girders buckling but I thought the bridge was old enough where they would have used hot-rolled steel which does not contain such stresses.
             
            Ken
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2010 6:04 AM
            Subject: Re: [on3] C&TS

             

            The fundamental issue is going to be whether or not the heat from the fire weakend the steel support girders.  If it is determined that they are OK, then it will be a matter of re-laying the ties and rails. 



            -----Original Message-----
            From: rgs20@...
            To: on3@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Thu, Jul 1, 2010 8:03 am
            Subject: Re: [on3] C&TS

             
            Nothing new on NGDF as of a few minutes ago. I would guess the
            engineering firm will need a few days to complete their work, then reply.
            This is a bit more complicated than the wood trestle the movie people
            burned by accident on the east end of the railroad.

            Charlie Mutschler
            -30-

            > You might check the Narrow Gauge Discussion site
            >
            > http://ngdiscussion.net/phorum/list.php?1
            >
            > Ken
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: Randall Lee
            > To: On3 group
            > Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 9:07 PM
            > Subject: [on3] C&TS
            >
            >
            >
            > Howdy,
            > Does anyone have any additional information on Lobato trestle?
            > The C&TS web site says they may have it repaired in a few weeks.
            > Randy
            >
            >
            >
            >


          • rickshoup
            Mike thanks for the clear pix. How long is the trip and are the roads in good shape? rick shoup ... From: Mike O Neill To:
            Message 5 of 13 , Jul 1, 2010
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              Mike thanks for the clear pix.
              How long is the trip and are the roads in good shape?
              rick shoup
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Mike O'Neill" <mcdeo1996@...>
              To: <on3@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2010 12:10 PM
              Subject: Re: [on3] C&TS

              On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 7:58 AM, Ken Ruble <kenruble@...>
              wrote:

              >
              >
              > 
              > This is something I don't understand. How can a fire weaken the
              > steel
              > girders? If the steel is cold-rolled, then I can see it relieving
              > the
              > stresses and then the girders buckling but I thought the bridge was
              > old
              > enough where they would have used hot-rolled steel which does not
              > contain such stresses.
              >
              > Ken
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > *From:* ebtnut@...
              > *To:* on3@yahoogroups.com
              > *Sent:* Thursday, July 01, 2010 6:04 AM
              > *Subject:* Re: [on3] C&TS
              >
              >
              >
              > The fundamental issue is going to be whether or not the heat from
              > the fire
              > weakend the steel support girders. If it is determined that they
              > are OK,
              > then it will be a matter of re-laying the ties and rails.
              >
              >
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: rgs20@...
              > To: on3@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Thu, Jul 1, 2010 8:03 am
              > Subject: Re: [on3] C&TS
              >
              >
              > Nothing new on NGDF as of a few minutes ago. I would guess the
              > engineering firm will need a few days to complete their work, then
              > reply.
              > This is a bit more complicated than the wood trestle the movie
              > people
              > burned by accident on the east end of the railroad.
              >
              > Charlie Mutschler
              > -30-
              >
              > > You might check the Narrow Gauge Discussion site
              > >
              > > http://ngdiscussion.net/phorum/list.php?1
              > >
              > > Ken
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > From: Randall Lee
              > > To: On3 group
              > > Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 9:07 PM
              > > Subject: [on3] C&TS
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Howdy,
              > > Does anyone have any additional information on Lobato trestle?
              > > The C&TS web site says they may have it repaired in a few weeks.
              > > Randy
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
            • Mike O'Neill
              Google shows the road distance to be about 12 miles. http://maps.google.com/maps?q=chama,+nm+to+cumbres,+co&ie=UTF8&hl=en&z=12 It s a two lane highway and some
              Message 6 of 13 , Jul 1, 2010
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                Google shows the road distance to be about 12 miles. 


                It's a two lane highway and some of it is more than 4%. The truck shouldn't have any issues with getting up there and Cumbres has plenty of room to position and offload and stuff. I wish the Google street view would be of summer and not of the snowy winter view. 

                There was some discussion about the Chama highway bridge, but the truck should have enough wheels to distribute the load. I was wondering if they are going to fire the 484 at Cumbres or tow her to Antonito. I see no reason why they couldn't fire her up on the hill. Then, with the passenger cars, can just run them down to Antonito. Not much other word that I know of yet. 

                Mike
                Parker, CO
              • rickshoup
                Mike, part of the problem with firing her anyplace but in the yard is the weight of the water in the boiler and tender. I assumed they drained her? If so even
                Message 7 of 13 , Jul 1, 2010
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                  Mike,
                  part of the problem with firing her anyplace but in the yard is the
                  weight of the water in the boiler and tender. I assumed they drained
                  her? If so even at Cumbres it might be more of a hassle than taking
                  her on to Antonito.
                  What does the loco weigh?
                  Old locos are really tender and must be treated gently. the less times
                  they are loaded the better.
                  rick.
                  ======
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Mike O'Neill" <mcdeo1996@...>
                  To: <on3@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2010 12:41 PM
                  Subject: Re: [on3] C&TS


                  > Google shows the road distance to be about 12 miles.
                  >
                  > http://maps.google.com/maps?q=chama,+nm+to+cumbres,+co&ie=UTF8&hl=en&z=12
                  >
                  > It's a two lane highway and some of it is more than 4%. The truck
                  > shouldn't
                  > have any issues with getting up there and Cumbres has plenty of room
                  > to
                  > position and offload and stuff. I wish the Google street view would
                  > be of
                  > summer and not of the snowy winter view.
                  >
                  > There was some discussion about the Chama highway bridge, but the
                  > truck
                  > should have enough wheels to distribute the load. I was wondering if
                  > they
                  > are going to fire the 484 at Cumbres or tow her to Antonito. I see
                  > no reason
                  > why they couldn't fire her up on the hill. Then, with the passenger
                  > cars,
                  > can just run them down to Antonito. Not much other word that I know
                  > of yet.
                  >
                  > Mike
                  > Parker, CO
                  >
                • maclatchym
                  If the steel gets sufficiently hot, it will soften and lose strength, and can then deform or buckle under its own weight. Even if the strength returns when the
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jul 1, 2010
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                    If the steel gets sufficiently hot, it will soften and lose strength, and can then deform or buckle under its own weight. Even if the strength returns when the steel cools, deformation of the members could really compromise the stability of the bridge.

                    The most graphic example that I can think of for how steel can lose strength when heated is the WTC atrocity. Similarly, a firefighter I know says they really don't like large fires in steel frame structures as there is no way to anticipate when the frame will soften enought to buckle, depending on the fire resistance coatings.

                    Regards,

                    Mike

                    --- In on3@yahoogroups.com, "Ken Ruble" <kenruble@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > This is something I don't understand. How can a fire weaken the steel girders? If the steel is cold-rolled, then I can see it relieving the stresses and then the girders buckling but I thought the bridge was old enough where they would have used hot-rolled steel which does not contain such stresses.
                    >
                    > Ken
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: ebtnut@...
                    > To: on3@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2010 6:04 AM
                    > Subject: Re: [on3] C&TS
                  • William Barber
                    Charlie, It appears that the structural engineers have recommended complete replacement of the trestle. The following report appeared on one of the other Yahoo
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jul 2, 2010
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                      Charlie,

                      It appears that the structural engineers have recommended complete replacement of the trestle. The following report appeared on one of the other Yahoo lists yesterday.

                      Statement from Cumbres and Toltec Status Lobato Trestle

                      Posted by: "Dan Stenger" dmstenger@...   dmstenger

                      Thu Jul 1, 2010 7:25 pm (PDT)



                      CHAMA, N.M. - Structural shortcomings on the Cumbres and Toltec Scenic
                      Railroad's Lobato Trestle, damaged recently by fire, may dictate that
                      complete replacement of the span is the most prudent repair, according to
                      the structural engineers called in to consult on the situation.
                      "They said that the most prudent course of action would be to replace the
                      entire thing, but we are still exploring less extreme alternatives," said
                      Elmer Salazar, president and CEO of the C&TSRR Management Company. "It is
                      not yet clear whether this recommendation is based on damage from the fire,
                      or from the general condition and design of this almost century-old
                      structure."
                      In the event the entire structure had to be replaced, the trestle would
                      likely be out of service for the balance of the summer season. Salazar said
                      consultation among Management Company officials and the engineering firm
                      were continuing.
                      In the meantime, a locomotive and passenger cars were being moved by truck
                      from the Chama Depot to Cumbres Station, on the north side of the damaged
                      trestle. Regular service from that point on to Osier and Antonito, Colo.,
                      will commence next week, with bus service for passengers from the Chama
                      Depot to Cumbres.
                      "We would prefer the quicker solution of replacing the roadbed on the
                      existing steel trestle framework, as that approach would take a vastly
                      shorter time to complete repairs," Salazar said. "However, the long-term
                      safety and adequacy of the trestle is the primary concern -- and if those
                      considerations dictate a necessity to replace the whole thing, we will do
                      it."
                      The C&TSRR has insurance on the trestle, but it features a $50,000
                      deductible and is limited to a total of $360,000 - likely insufficient to
                      cover the cost of a total replacement. 
                      Tim Tennant, vice president of the Management Company and president of the
                      nonprofit Friends of the Cumbres and Toltec Scenic Railroad, said
                      aficionados are already lining up to support the rebuilding of the trestle.
                      "We have established a separate account, the Lobato Trestle Fund, care of
                      Friends of the Cumbres & Toltec Scenic Railroad, to assist in raising funds
                      for the restoration," Tennant said. "Interested persons can send
                      contributions to that fund, care of Friends, 6005 Osuna Rd. NE, Albuquerque,
                      NM 87109."
                      In the meantime, the railroad is maintaining its steam railroading
                      experience notwithstanding the trestle difficulties.
                      A train will depart at 1 pm. Saturday (July 3) from Chama for a trip up to
                      Lobato and back. Adult fares for the short run are $25 for adults, $17.50
                      for youth, $12.50 for children, and $49 for an upgrade to a spot on the
                      caboose. Entertainment will add to the fun, but lunch is not included.
                      Tickets will be available at the Chama Depot Saturday, or can be secured by
                      calling 888-286-2737.
                      On Sunday, July 4, the Fireworks SpecialTrain will depart the Chama station
                      at 6:30 p.m., bound for Lobato. Passengers will be given an opportunity to
                      disembark from the train for a photo run-by along the stretch of several
                      miles to Lobato and back. Following the run to Lobato, the train will return
                      to the south end of the Chama yard near the wye, to give passengers a view
                      from the train of the Chama fireworks display.
                      Chama's hour-long fireworks extravaganza, fast becoming known as one of the
                      best in southern Colorado and northern New Mexico, will start at 9 p.m. 
                      The otherwise peaceful journey will be "interrupted" at an unexpected moment
                      by the eruption of some old West excitement nearby. A "Wild West Show,"
                      staged by the Rio Arriba Stuntmen's Association, will highlight the trip
                      with some authentic period action. Free snacks and sodas, together with live
                      music, will further punctuate the evening's entertainment. 
                      Railroad patrons will be able to park in the Chama Depot lot, avoiding the
                      anticipated crush of parking in Chama for the popular fireworks event.
                      Seats are limited and a variety of price options are available now. To book
                      reservations, please call 888-286-2737. It will be an evening of fun and
                      excitement for the whole family, not to be missed.
                      The C&TSRR is celebrating the 40th anniversary of the purchase of the line
                      this summer. The C&TSRR management company is in the final stages of an
                      ambitious multi-year program to replace ties and ballast on the track to
                      restore it to optimum operating capability. A total of 40,378 new ties have
                      been installed over the duration of this project, with 64 miles of track
                      resurfaced and lined.

                      Dan Stenger


                      Bill Barber
                      Gravois Mills, MO

                      On Jul 2, 2010, at 6:12 AM, on3@yahoogroups.com wrote:

                      Re: C&TS

                      Posted by: "rgs20@..." rgs20@...   np1354

                      Thu Jul 1, 2010 5:04 am (PDT)



                      Nothing new on NGDF as of a few minutes ago. I would guess the
                      engineering firm will need a few days to complete their work, then reply. 
                      This is a bit more complicated than the wood trestle the movie people
                      burned by accident on the east end of the railroad.

                      Charlie Mutschler

                    • Mike
                      Was this done during filming for Where the Hell s that Gold? with Willie Nelson? Just watched that movie Wed night. Mike Conder Charlie Mutschler ...
                      Message 10 of 13 , Jul 2, 2010
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                        Was this done during filming for "Where the Hell's that Gold?" with Willie Nelson? Just watched that movie Wed night.

                        Mike Conder

                        Charlie Mutschler

                        > ,,,This is a bit more complicated than the wood trestle the movie people
                        burned by accident on the east end of the railroad.
                      • rickshoup
                        Yes the structural engineers would cover their collective asses and say a totally new bridge is the only way to go. But has the steel really lost its temper?
                        Message 11 of 13 , Jul 2, 2010
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                          Yes the structural engineers would cover their collective asses and
                          say a totally new bridge is the only way to go.
                          But has the steel really lost its temper?
                          How many trips a year go across the bridge?
                          Is the C&TS making money or just enough to keep going?
                          Can they afford to replace the bridge?
                          Just questions.. I don't know the honest answers.
                          Rick Shoup.
                          =============
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "William Barber" <clipperw@...>
                          To: <on3@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 10:58 AM
                          Subject: [on3] Re:Re: C&TS


                          > Charlie,
                          >
                          > It appears that the structural engineers have recommended complete
                          > replacement of the trestle. The following report appeared on one of
                          > the other Yahoo lists yesterday.
                          >
                          > Statement from Cumbres and Toltec Status Lobato Trestle
                          > Posted by: "Dan Stenger" dmstenger@... dmstenger
                          > Thu Jul 1, 2010 7:25 pm (PDT)
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > CHAMA, N.M. - Structural shortcomings on the Cumbres and Toltec
                          > Scenic
                          > Railroad's Lobato Trestle, damaged recently by fire, may dictate
                          > that
                          > complete replacement of the span is the most prudent repair,
                          > according to
                          > the structural engineers called in to consult on the situation.
                          > "They said that the most prudent course of action would be to
                          > replace
                          > the
                          > entire thing, but we are still exploring less extreme alternatives,"
                          > said
                          > Elmer Salazar, president and CEO of the C&TSRR Management Company.
                          > "It is
                          > not yet clear whether this recommendation is based on damage from
                          > the
                          > fire,
                          > or from the general condition and design of this almost century-old
                          > structure."
                          > In the event the entire structure had to be replaced, the trestle
                          > would
                          > likely be out of service for the balance of the summer season.
                          > Salazar said
                          > consultation among Management Company officials and the engineering
                          > firm
                          > were continuing.
                          > In the meantime, a locomotive and passenger cars were being moved by
                          > truck
                          > from the Chama Depot to Cumbres Station, on the north side of the
                          > damaged
                          > trestle. Regular service from that point on to Osier and Antonito,
                          > Colo.,
                          > will commence next week, with bus service for passengers from the
                          > Chama
                          > Depot to Cumbres.
                          > "We would prefer the quicker solution of replacing the roadbed on
                          > the
                          > existing steel trestle framework, as that approach would take a
                          > vastly
                          > shorter time to complete repairs," Salazar said. "However, the
                          > long-term
                          > safety and adequacy of the trestle is the primary concern -- and if
                          > those
                          > considerations dictate a necessity to replace the whole thing, we
                          > will do
                          > it."
                          > The C&TSRR has insurance on the trestle, but it features a $50,000
                          > deductible and is limited to a total of $360,000 - likely
                          > insufficient to
                          > cover the cost of a total replacement.
                          > Tim Tennant, vice president of the Management Company and president
                          > of the
                          > nonprofit Friends of the Cumbres and Toltec Scenic Railroad, said
                          > aficionados are already lining up to support the rebuilding of the
                          > trestle.
                          > "We have established a separate account, the Lobato Trestle Fund,
                          > care of
                          > Friends of the Cumbres & Toltec Scenic Railroad, to assist in
                          > raising
                          > funds
                          > for the restoration," Tennant said. "Interested persons can send
                          > contributions to that fund, care of Friends, 6005 Osuna Rd. NE,
                          > Albuquerque,
                          > NM 87109."
                          > In the meantime, the railroad is maintaining its steam railroading
                          > experience notwithstanding the trestle difficulties.
                          > A train will depart at 1 pm. Saturday (July 3) from Chama for a trip
                          > up to
                          > Lobato and back. Adult fares for the short run are $25 for adults,
                          > $17.50
                          > for youth, $12.50 for children, and $49 for an upgrade to a spot on
                          > the
                          > caboose. Entertainment will add to the fun, but lunch is not
                          > included.
                          > Tickets will be available at the Chama Depot Saturday, or can be
                          > secured by
                          > calling 888-286-2737.
                          > On Sunday, July 4, the Fireworks SpecialTrain will depart the Chama
                          > station
                          > at 6:30 p.m., bound for Lobato. Passengers will be given an
                          > opportunity to
                          > disembark from the train for a photo run-by along the stretch of
                          > several
                          > miles to Lobato and back. Following the run to Lobato, the train
                          > will
                          > return
                          > to the south end of the Chama yard near the wye, to give passengers
                          > a
                          > view
                          > from the train of the Chama fireworks display.
                          > Chama's hour-long fireworks extravaganza, fast becoming known as one
                          > of the
                          > best in southern Colorado and northern New Mexico, will start at 9
                          > p.m.
                          > The otherwise peaceful journey will be "interrupted" at an
                          > unexpected
                          > moment
                          > by the eruption of some old West excitement nearby. A "Wild West
                          > Show,"
                          > staged by the Rio Arriba Stuntmen's Association, will highlight the
                          > trip
                          > with some authentic period action. Free snacks and sodas, together
                          > with live
                          > music, will further punctuate the evening's entertainment.
                          > Railroad patrons will be able to park in the Chama Depot lot,
                          > avoiding the
                          > anticipated crush of parking in Chama for the popular fireworks
                          > event.
                          > Seats are limited and a variety of price options are available now.
                          > To book
                          > reservations, please call 888-286-2737. It will be an evening of fun
                          > and
                          > excitement for the whole family, not to be missed.
                          > The C&TSRR is celebrating the 40th anniversary of the purchase of
                          > the
                          > line
                          > this summer. The C&TSRR management company is in the final stages of
                          > an
                          > ambitious multi-year program to replace ties and ballast on the
                          > track to
                          > restore it to optimum operating capability. A total of 40,378 new
                          > ties have
                          > been installed over the duration of this project, with 64 miles of
                          > track
                          > resurfaced and lined.
                          >
                          > Dan Stenger
                          >
                          >
                          > Bill Barber
                          > Gravois Mills, MO
                          >
                          > On Jul 2, 2010, at 6:12 AM, on3@yahoogroups.com wrote:
                          >
                          >> Re: C&TS
                          >> Posted by: "rgs20@..." rgs20@... np1354
                          >> Thu Jul 1, 2010 5:04 am (PDT)
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> Nothing new on NGDF as of a few minutes ago. I would guess the
                          >> engineering firm will need a few days to complete their work, then
                          >> reply.
                          >> This is a bit more complicated than the wood trestle the movie
                          >> people
                          >> burned by accident on the east end of the railroad.
                          >>
                          >> Charlie Mutschler
                          >
                          >
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