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Re: [on3] K-27 Flanged Drivers

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  • Mike O'Neill
    Here s the 463 last August. Looks like flanged drivers, but the picture is not that specific to the wheels.
    Message 1 of 25 , Mar 1 5:13 AM
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      Here's the 463 last August. Looks like flanged drivers, but the picture is not that specific to the wheels. 


      Mike
      Parker, CO
    • Scott Gibbs
      Randy, I remember reading someplace that the D&RG decided to install flanged driver tires on the 2nd and 3rd drivers as a result of 452 s roll over on Marshall
      Message 2 of 25 , Mar 1 5:35 AM
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        Randy,

        I remember reading someplace that the D&RG decided to install flanged driver tires on the 2nd and 3rd drivers as a result of 452's roll over on Marshall Pass. I will see if I can find the reference. From various photos it looks like by the time the class had the cylinders changed from compound to simple operation, it looks they all had flanged drivers on the two middle axles. I don't know what they did for lateral motion in the driver boxes to make up for the loss of the blind drivers.

        Scott
      • Randall Lee
        Scott, Let me know what you find.  I am going to do a little more research myself. Thanks, Randy   ... From: Scott Gibbs Subject:
        Message 3 of 25 , Mar 1 7:15 AM
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          Scott,
          Let me know what you find.  I am going to do a little more research myself.
          Thanks,
          Randy
           


          --- On Mon, 3/1/10, Scott Gibbs <wgibbs.family@...> wrote:

          From: Scott Gibbs <wgibbs.family@...>
          Subject: [on3] Re:K-27 Flanged Drivers
          To: on3@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Monday, March 1, 2010, 6:35 AM

           
          Randy,

          I remember reading someplace that the D&RG decided to install flanged driver tires on the 2nd and 3rd drivers as a result of 452's roll over on Marshall Pass. I will see if I can find the reference. From various photos it looks like by the time the class had the cylinders changed from compound to simple operation, it looks they all had flanged drivers on the two middle axles. I don't know what they did for lateral motion in the driver boxes to make up for the loss of the blind drivers.

          Scott

        • Randall Lee
          Mike, Thanks for the responce.  I know 463 is flanged, as far as I can tell, all of them were later on.  I just wanted to know when it might have happened.
          Message 4 of 25 , Mar 1 7:17 AM
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            Mike,
            Thanks for the responce.  I know 463 is flanged, as far as I can tell, all of them were later on.  I just wanted to know when it might have happened.
            Randy


            --- On Mon, 3/1/10, Mike O'Neill <mcdeo1996@...> wrote:

            From: Mike O'Neill <mcdeo1996@...>
            Subject: Re: [on3] K-27 Flanged Drivers
            To: on3@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Monday, March 1, 2010, 6:13 AM

             
            Here's the 463 last August. Looks like flanged drivers, but the picture is not that specific to the wheels. 


            Mike
            Parker, CO

          • zul36@aol.com
            Randy-I had never noticed that. Your right that darn thing has blind drivers. I guess after the rebuild they got the flanged drivers. I ll contact Dave
            Message 5 of 25 , Mar 1 9:07 AM
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              Randy-I had never noticed that.  Your right that darn thing has blind drivers.  I guess after the rebuild they got the flanged drivers.  I'll contact Dave Garcia who is a mudhen fanatic and probably knows when it happened.
              jc 
               
              In a message dated 2/28/2010 10:18:04 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, banjopicker1949@... writes:


              If you will take a look at the "Mudhens" book, you will find information in the specifications that the 2nd and 3rd drivers were 6 inches wide and "plain".  Also, I don't remember the page number, but if you will look at the picture of 452 when it was wrecked in 1903 and it is laying on it's side, it is very easy to see that it has blind drivers on the 2nd and 3rd axles.  Somewhere along the way, maybe when they were converted to slide valves or maybe the first time they needed tires, they were changed.  I don't know that all of them had the blind drivers but 452 sure did.  I suspect they all did.
              Randy


              un, 2/28/10, zul36@... <zul36@...> wrote:

              From: zul36@... <zul36@...>
              Subject: Re: [on3] K-27 Flanged Drivers
              To: on3@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Sunday, February 28, 2010, 9:05 PM

               
              Randy-The K-27's had flanged drivers on all drivers.  The second and third driver where never blind, though some manufactures have given the blind drivers to maneuver sharper curves.
              jc
               
              In a message dated 2/28/2010 7:17:05 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, banjopicker1949@ yahoo.com writes:


              Hello Everyone,
              I have a question that maybe someone out there knows.  Does anyone know when the second and third drivers of the K-27's were changed from a blind to a flanged driver?  I have done some reading recently but either missed this information or it is not there.  Can anyone help?
              Thanks,
              Randy Lee
               
               


            • doug ramos
              You guys are amazing. Can you see the special skid marks in the engineer s shorts after that wreck too? Wow! Details. Doug. ... From: zul36@aol.com
              Message 6 of 25 , Mar 1 12:26 PM
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                You guys are amazing. Can you see the special skid marks in the engineer's shorts after that wreck too? Wow! Details. Doug.

                --- On Mon, 3/1/10, zul36@... <zul36@...> wrote:

                From: zul36@... <zul36@...>
                Subject: Re: [on3] K-27 Flanged Drivers
                To: on3@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Monday, March 1, 2010, 9:07 AM

                 
                Randy-I had never noticed that.  Your right that darn thing has blind drivers.  I guess after the rebuild they got the flanged drivers.  I'll contact Dave Garcia who is a mudhen fanatic and probably knows when it happened.
                jc 
                 
                In a message dated 2/28/2010 10:18:04 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, banjopicker1949@ yahoo.com writes:


                If you will take a look at the "Mudhens" book, you will find information in the specifications that the 2nd and 3rd drivers were 6 inches wide and "plain".  Also, I don't remember the page number, but if you will look at the picture of 452 when it was wrecked in 1903 and it is laying on it's side, it is very easy to see that it has blind drivers on the 2nd and 3rd axles.  Somewhere along the way, maybe when they were converted to slide valves or maybe the first time they needed tires, they were changed.  I don't know that all of them had the blind drivers but 452 sure did.  I suspect they all did.
                Randy


                un, 2/28/10, zul36@... <zul36@...> wrote:

                From: zul36@... <zul36@...>
                Subject: Re: [on3] K-27 Flanged Drivers
                To: on3@yahoogroups. com
                Date: Sunday, February 28, 2010, 9:05 PM

                 
                Randy-The K-27's had flanged drivers on all drivers.  The second and third driver where never blind, though some manufactures have given the blind drivers to maneuver sharper curves.
                jc
                 
                In a message dated 2/28/2010 7:17:05 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, banjopicker1949@ yahoo.com writes:


                Hello Everyone,
                I have a question that maybe someone out there knows.  Does anyone know when the second and third drivers of the K-27's were changed from a blind to a flanged driver?  I have done some reading recently but either missed this information or it is not there.  Can anyone help?
                Thanks,
                Randy Lee
                 
                 



              • doug ramos
                No offense, Just trying to have a little fun folks. ... From: zul36@aol.com Subject: Re: [on3] K-27 Flanged Drivers To: on3@yahoogroups.com
                Message 7 of 25 , Mar 1 12:27 PM
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                  No offense, Just trying to have a little fun folks.

                  --- On Mon, 3/1/10, zul36@... <zul36@...> wrote:

                  From: zul36@... <zul36@...>
                  Subject: Re: [on3] K-27 Flanged Drivers
                  To: on3@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Monday, March 1, 2010, 9:07 AM

                   
                  Randy-I had never noticed that.  Your right that darn thing has blind drivers.  I guess after the rebuild they got the flanged drivers.  I'll contact Dave Garcia who is a mudhen fanatic and probably knows when it happened.
                  jc 
                   
                  In a message dated 2/28/2010 10:18:04 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, banjopicker1949@ yahoo.com writes:


                  If you will take a look at the "Mudhens" book, you will find information in the specifications that the 2nd and 3rd drivers were 6 inches wide and "plain".  Also, I don't remember the page number, but if you will look at the picture of 452 when it was wrecked in 1903 and it is laying on it's side, it is very easy to see that it has blind drivers on the 2nd and 3rd axles.  Somewhere along the way, maybe when they were converted to slide valves or maybe the first time they needed tires, they were changed.  I don't know that all of them had the blind drivers but 452 sure did.  I suspect they all did.
                  Randy


                  un, 2/28/10, zul36@... <zul36@...> wrote:

                  From: zul36@... <zul36@...>
                  Subject: Re: [on3] K-27 Flanged Drivers
                  To: on3@yahoogroups. com
                  Date: Sunday, February 28, 2010, 9:05 PM

                   
                  Randy-The K-27's had flanged drivers on all drivers.  The second and third driver where never blind, though some manufactures have given the blind drivers to maneuver sharper curves.
                  jc
                   
                  In a message dated 2/28/2010 7:17:05 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, banjopicker1949@ yahoo.com writes:


                  Hello Everyone,
                  I have a question that maybe someone out there knows.  Does anyone know when the second and third drivers of the K-27's were changed from a blind to a flanged driver?  I have done some reading recently but either missed this information or it is not there.  Can anyone help?
                  Thanks,
                  Randy Lee
                   
                   



                • zul36@aol.com
                  None taken!!!!! In a message dated 3/1/2010 1:03:52 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, ramosdoug@yahoo.com writes: No offense, Just trying to have a little fun
                  Message 8 of 25 , Mar 1 1:05 PM
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                    None taken!!!!!
                     
                    In a message dated 3/1/2010 1:03:52 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, ramosdoug@... writes:


                    No offense, Just trying to have a little fun folks.

                    --- On Mon, 3/1/10, zul36@... <zul36@...> wrote:

                    From: zul36@... <zul36@...>
                    Subject: Re: [on3] K-27 Flanged Drivers
                    To: on3@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Monday, March 1, 2010, 9:07 AM

                     
                    Randy-I had never noticed that.  Your right that darn thing has blind drivers.  I guess after the rebuild they got the flanged drivers.  I'll contact Dave Garcia who is a mudhen fanatic and probably knows when it happened.
                    jc 
                     
                    In a message dated 2/28/2010 10:18:04 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, banjopicker1949@ yahoo.com writes:


                    If you will take a look at the "Mudhens" book, you will find information in the specifications that the 2nd and 3rd drivers were 6 inches wide and "plain".  Also, I don't remember the page number, but if you will look at the picture of 452 when it was wrecked in 1903 and it is laying on it's side, it is very easy to see that it has blind drivers on the 2nd and 3rd axles.  Somewhere along the way, maybe when they were converted to slide valves or maybe the first time they needed tires, they were changed.  I don't know that all of them had the blind drivers but 452 sure did.  I suspect they all did.
                    Randy


                    un, 2/28/10, zul36@... <zul36@...> wrote:

                    From: zul36@... <zul36@...>
                    Subject: Re: [on3] K-27 Flanged Drivers
                    To: on3@yahoogroups. com
                    Date: Sunday, February 28, 2010, 9:05 PM

                     
                    Randy-The K-27's had flanged drivers on all drivers.  The second and third driver where never blind, though some manufactures have given the blind drivers to maneuver sharper curves.
                    jc
                     
                    In a message dated 2/28/2010 7:17:05 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, banjopicker1949@ yahoo.com writes:


                    Hello Everyone,
                    I have a question that maybe someone out there knows.  Does anyone know when the second and third drivers of the K-27's were changed from a blind to a flanged driver?  I have done some reading recently but either missed this information or it is not there.  Can anyone help?
                    Thanks,
                    Randy Lee
                     
                     



                  • Robert
                    The picture is on page 28 of the Mudhens book. The center drivers are considerably thicker than the other wheels. Though one of the thick wheels looks like it
                    Message 9 of 25 , Mar 1 2:26 PM
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                      The picture is on page 28 of the Mudhens book. The center drivers are considerably thicker than the other wheels. Though one of the thick wheels looks like it might be flanged as well, the other ones clearly show that they are "blind".

                      > Randy-I had never noticed that. Your right that darn thing has blind
                      > drivers. ...
                    • Robert
                      I have several pictures of the same taken by myself on 26 August 2009 at Chama, and they clearly show flanges on all the drivers.
                      Message 10 of 25 , Mar 1 2:34 PM
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                        I have several pictures of the same taken by myself on 26 August 2009 at Chama, and they clearly show flanges on all the drivers.

                        --- In on3@yahoogroups.com, "Mike O'Neill" <mcdeo1996@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Here's the 463 last August. Looks like flanged drivers, but the picture is
                        > not that specific to the wheels.
                        >
                        >
                      • zul36@aol.com
                        Randy is not contesting the fact that they had flanged drivers in the later years. The information he trying to find is when they received flanged drivers.
                        Message 11 of 25 , Mar 1 7:27 PM
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                          Randy is not contesting the fact that they had flanged drivers in the later years.  The information he trying to find is when they received flanged drivers.  The picture of 452 clearly shows that the first shipment of K's had blind drivers.  This is documented and the picture 452 clearly supports the documentation.  
                          jc
                           
                          In a message dated 3/1/2010 2:39:10 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, rkfurrer@... writes:
                          I have several pictures of the same taken by myself on 26 August 2009 at Chama, and they clearly show flanges on all the drivers.

                          --- In on3@yahoogroups.com, "Mike O'Neill" <mcdeo1996@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Here's the 463 last August. Looks like flanged drivers, but the picture is
                          > not that specific to the wheels.
                          >
                          >



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                        • Joel
                          Allen Brewster s drawings in the March, 1973 Model Railroader show the K-27 in its original, as-delivered, condition and has blind center drivers, while his
                          Message 12 of 25 , Mar 2 4:23 AM
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                            Allen Brewster's drawings in the March, 1973 Model Railroader show the K-27 in its original, as-delivered, condition and has blind center drivers, while his drawings in the June, 1973 issue of the late locomotive shows flanged drivers.

                            Joel
                          • ebtnut@aol.com
                            Blind drivers were typically about 1 1/2 wider than the flanged tires. This was so they would not drop off the railhead on sharp curves. The MMI C-19
                            Message 13 of 25 , Mar 2 7:38 AM
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                              Blind drivers were typically about 1 1/2" wider than the flanged tires.  This was so they would not drop off the railhead on sharp curves.  The MMI  C-19 models this correctly.
                               
                              DM



                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: Robert <rkfurrer@...>
                              To: on3@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Mon, Mar 1, 2010 5:26 pm
                              Subject: [on3] Re: K-27 Flanged Drivers

                               
                              The picture is on page 28 of the Mudhens book. The center drivers are considerably thicker than the other wheels. Though one of the thick wheels looks like it might be flanged as well, the other ones clearly show that they are "blind".

                              > Randy-I had never noticed that. Your right that darn thing has blind
                              > drivers. ...

                            • Fred Folk
                              Hi Dean, On the 315 the blind tires were 6 and flanged were 4 . Fred See you in Kimberton in May ... From: ebtnut@aol.com To: on3@yahoogroups.com Sent:
                              Message 14 of 25 , Mar 2 7:45 AM
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                                Hi Dean,
                                On the 315 the blind tires were 6" and flanged were 4".
                                Fred
                                See you in Kimberton in May
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 8:38 AM
                                Subject: Re: [on3] Re: K-27 Flanged Drivers

                                 

                                Blind drivers were typically about 1 1/2" wider than the flanged tires.  This was so they would not drop off the railhead on sharp curves.  The MMI  C-19 models this correctly.
                                 
                                DM



                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: Robert <rkfurrer@hotmail. com>
                                To: on3@yahoogroups. com
                                Sent: Mon, Mar 1, 2010 5:26 pm
                                Subject: [on3] Re: K-27 Flanged Drivers

                                 
                                The picture is on page 28 of the Mudhens book. The center drivers are considerably thicker than the other wheels. Though one of the thick wheels looks like it might be flanged as well, the other ones clearly show that they are "blind".

                                > Randy-I had never noticed that. Your right that darn thing has blind
                                > drivers. ...

                              • zul36@aol.com
                                That s just wear. In a message dated 3/2/2010 4:49:29 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, rkfurrer@hotmail.com writes: Though one of the thick wheels looks like it
                                Message 15 of 25 , Mar 2 7:53 AM
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                                  That's just wear.
                                   
                                  In a message dated 3/2/2010 4:49:29 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, rkfurrer@... writes:
                                  Though one of the thick wheels looks like it might be flanged as well, the other ones clearly show that they are "blind
                                • Mike
                                  I wrote this over the weekend but apparently went off in the the ether somewhere. I ve spent a bit of time at the DeGolyer Library at SMU in Dallas and have
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Mar 2 9:21 PM
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                                    I wrote this over the weekend but apparently went off in the the ether somewhere.

                                    I've spent a bit of time at the DeGolyer Library at SMU in Dallas and have copied the original specification sheets (from microfilm) for virtually all Baldwin noarrow gauge locos in Colorado. Every one with six drivers or more was built with blind center drivers, even the K-27. But I'm not 100% sure about the K-36, and I cna't find my spec sheets after and office move and house move. Also not sure about the K-28 (built by Alco) or the K-37 (which started as a standard gause loco).

                                    Mike Conder


                                    Randall Lee wrote:
                                    >
                                    > If you will take a look at the "Mudhens" book, you will find information in the specifications that the 2nd and 3rd drivers were 6 inches wide and "plain"....
                                  • Mike
                                    The spec sheets list wider drivers for the blind drivers, anywhere from 1-1/2 to 2-1/2 greater, depending on which loco class. Mike Conder
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Mar 3 6:16 AM
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                                      The spec sheets list wider drivers for the blind drivers, anywhere from 1-1/2" to 2-1/2" greater, depending on which loco class.

                                      Mike Conder

                                      JC wrote:

                                      > That's just wear.
                                    • Randall Lee
                                      Mike, After talking with a few people that are some of the more educated on locomotives, we all agree that the blind drivers on the K-27 s probably were
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Mar 3 9:11 AM
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                                        Mike,
                                        After talking with a few people that are some of the more educated on locomotives, we all agree that the blind drivers on the K-27's probably were changed to flanged drivers when the rebuild was made to slide valves.  The rebuild would have been a major one with the boiler being removed.  That would be the prefect time to change the drivers.
                                        Thanks for your research.
                                        Randy Lee
                                         
                                         


                                        --- On Tue, 3/2/10, Mike <vulturenest1@...> wrote:

                                        From: Mike <vulturenest1@...>
                                        Subject: [on3] Re: K-27 Flanged Drivers
                                        To: on3@yahoogroups.com
                                        Date: Tuesday, March 2, 2010, 10:21 PM

                                         
                                        I wrote this over the weekend but apparently went off in the the ether somewhere.

                                        I've spent a bit of time at the DeGolyer Library at SMU in Dallas and have copied the original specification sheets (from microfilm) for virtually all Baldwin noarrow gauge locos in Colorado. Every one with six drivers or more was built with blind center drivers, even the K-27. But I'm not 100% sure about the K-36, and I cna't find my spec sheets after and office move and house move. Also not sure about the K-28 (built by Alco) or the K-37 (which started as a standard gause loco).

                                        Mike Conder

                                        Randall Lee wrote:
                                        >
                                        > If you will take a look at the "Mudhens" book, you will find information in the specifications that the 2nd and 3rd drivers were 6 inches wide and "plain"....


                                      • zul36@aol.com
                                        Randy-I forgot to mention the conversion to simple cylinders started in 1907-1909. I would assume the flanged centers were also added around that time. jc In
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Mar 3 10:04 AM
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                                          Randy-I forgot to mention the conversion to simple cylinders started in 1907-1909.  I would assume the flanged centers were also added around that time.
                                          jc
                                           
                                           
                                           
                                          In a message dated 3/3/2010 9:11:25 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, banjopicker1949@... writes:


                                          Mike,
                                          After talking with a few people that are some of the more educated on locomotives, we all agree that the blind drivers on the K-27's probably were changed to flanged drivers when the rebuild was made to slide valves.  The rebuild would have been a major one with the boiler being removed.  That would be the prefect time to change the drivers.
                                          Thanks for your research.
                                          Randy Lee
                                           
                                           


                                          --- On Tue, 3/2/10, Mike <vulturenest1@...> wrote:

                                          From: Mike <vulturenest1@...>
                                          Subject: [on3] Re: K-27 Flanged Drivers
                                          To: on3@yahoogroups.com
                                          Date: Tuesday, March 2, 2010, 10:21 PM

                                           
                                          I wrote this over the weekend but apparently went off in the the ether somewhere.

                                          I've spent a bit of time at the DeGolyer Library at SMU in Dallas and have copied the original specification sheets (from microfilm) for virtually all Baldwin noarrow gauge locos in Colorado. Every one with six drivers or more was built with blind center drivers, even the K-27. But I'm not 100% sure about the K-36, and I cna't find my spec sheets after and office move and house move. Also not sure about the K-28 (built by Alco) or the K-37 (which started as a standard gause loco).

                                          Mike Conder

                                          Randall Lee wrote:
                                          >
                                          > If you will take a look at the "Mudhens" book, you will find information in the specifications that the 2nd and 3rd drivers were 6 inches wide and "plain"....


                                        • dave_grandt
                                          There is a D&RG Drawing, File L-195 card 1800, dated 7-12-06 which shows flanges on all drivers on a class 125 locomotive. Dave g
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Mar 3 12:51 PM
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                                            There is a D&RG Drawing, File L-195 card 1800, dated 7-12-06 which shows flanges on all drivers on a class 125 locomotive.

                                            Dave g

                                            --- In on3@yahoogroups.com, zul36@... wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Randy-I forgot to mention the conversion to simple cylinders started in
                                            > 1907-1909. I would assume the flanged centers were also added around that
                                            > time.
                                            > jc
                                          • Bill Daniels
                                            Since the wreck pictured in the Mudhen book occurred in October of 1903, I wonder if the Grande felt the blind inner drivers was the cause of the wreck, and
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Mar 3 1:12 PM
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                                              Since the wreck pictured in the Mudhen book occurred in October of 1903, I wonder if the Grande felt the blind inner drivers was the cause of the wreck, and initiated the change-over... apparently it occurred shortly after the K-27s were delivered.

                                              Bill Daniels
                                              Tucson, AZ

                                              --- On Wed, 3/3/10, dave_grandt <davegrandt@...> wrote:

                                              From: dave_grandt <davegrandt@...>
                                              Subject: [on3] Re: K-27 Flanged Drivers
                                              To: on3@yahoogroups.com
                                              Date: Wednesday, March 3, 2010, 1:51 PM

                                               

                                              There is a D&RG Drawing, File L-195 card 1800, dated 7-12-06 which shows flanges on all drivers on a class 125 locomotive.

                                              Dave g

                                              --- In on3@yahoogroups. com, zul36@... wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Randy-I forgot to mention the conversion to simple cylinders started in
                                              > 1907-1909. I would assume the flanged centers were also added around that
                                              > time.
                                              > jc


                                            • Doug MacLeod
                                              The K-27 photo on the bottom of page 41 of MR June 1973 the drivers have flanges on all of the drivers shown. Doug MacLeod, Roseville, CA
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Mar 4 7:39 PM
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                                                The K-27 photo on the bottom of page 41 of MR June 1973 the drivers have flanges on all of the drivers shown.
                                                Doug MacLeod, Roseville, CA
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