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Re: [on3] So, How extreme do we get?

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  • Glenn476
    my feeling on nailheads (more so than holes--) is that if a building is in good repair and well painted, not many will be visible On a building that is heavily
    Message 1 of 21 , Aug 1, 2008
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      my feeling on nailheads (more so than holes--) is that if a building is in
      good repair and well painted, not many will be visible On a building that is
      heavily weathered, they would be more likely to show.

      No deduction for not done, but deduction if done poorly. I spent a lot of
      time as a contest judge in PCR and Coast Division, and at a couple of
      Nationals. I was PCR Contest Chairman for a couple of years, and have my AV
      cert. gj
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: <nmrammr@...>
    • bill davis
      If you have a prototype take a pictures of it. Take a side view or front view not a 3/4 view. Photo shop the pictures and resize it so it the subject will be
      Message 2 of 21 , Aug 1, 2008
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        If you have a prototype take a pictures of it. Take a side view or front view not a 3/4 view. Photo shop the pictures and resize it so it the subject will be in your scale. That will tell you exactly what you want to know.
        BILL

        --- On Thu, 7/31/08, Boone Morrison <boone@...> wrote:
        From: Boone Morrison <boone@...>
        Subject: Re: [on3] So, How extreme do we get?
        To: on3@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Thursday, July 31, 2008, 8:37 PM











        JD:



        Thanks for the kind words, and enjoy the fishing. Kona is having a

        great season!



        As for "how much".



        Back to my illusive word (very, very subjective). .."verisimilitud e"...

        "the appearance of being correct". Very important, very hard to

        define because

        it is so personal.



        In my own work I am not able to see many buildings AT THE TIME

        PERIOD I AM

        DEPICTING, so I got to work with historic photos, and occasionally

        with a rebuilt

        actual building. The town of Occidental - the main "urban" center on

        my layout,

        has about 25% of the buildings from 1889 still standing - some a bit

        altered, all

        upkept to a good level and that is helpful.



        I suggest doing some personal experiments. Find a building of the

        same type of

        construction you want (wood frame, brick, stone, etc) that has been

        in service

        for a time - not broken down (unless that is what you want). Then

        stand there

        and LOOK AT IT from a distance that makes it appear about the size of

        your

        model....now, WHAT CAN YOU SEE? Nail heads? Wood grain? Failing paint?



        This is the place you are gathering the input that will enable you to

        bring that

        illusive judgment into play - "just what looks right here". You can

        then bring

        this (mentally) back to your bench and use it to determine if you

        achieve verisimilitude

        on a given project. "Does this wall look right?"...well, compare

        that to your mental

        (or photographic, or both) image. What do you see? Is that wood

        grain "too much"?



        So, one is groping here, building a mental vision of what "looks

        right" to you.



        Sorry, Bro, that is about all I got!



        Aloha, Boone



        On Jul 31, 2008, at 3:29 PM, JD wrote:



        > OK, nice topic or thread going for the last few days on overdone

        > weathering. Boone, thanks for the ton of info you provided about real

        > life engineering. The fact that Im coming to the Big Island in 3 weeks

        > and want to go fishing with some locals had nothing to do with my

        > compliments. ..trust me.

        >

        > OK, so how far do we go in weathering? Are nail holes acceptible in O

        > scale? How much "wood graining" do we gouge in? Ive seen alot of HO

        > structures that had nail holes put in, even by many award winning

        > modelers, and yet in reality they are way over scale. Ive seen O scale

        > structures with "wood grain" that was 1-2 scale inches deep. How about

        > contest modeling, any judges on the list and what are your thoughts on

        > nail holes etc. How many missing or split/sagging boards would there

        > be in reality before somebody fixed that wall? Again I know some of

        > this is subjective, like trying to define porn...everyone is going to

        > have a different viewpoint. Im just curious how the majority of people

        > feel on this. JD.

        >

        >

        >



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





























        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • rickshoup
        Boone, that is a very important point about standing at the same distance away as when you re viewing the model. Especially if you are going to enter the model
        Message 3 of 21 , Aug 1, 2008
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          Boone, that is a very important point about standing at the same
          distance away as when you're viewing the model.
          Especially if you are going to enter the model in the NMRA contest the
          photo with explanation of distance
          should earn you points for conformity.

          =========== ========= =========
          Regards: Rick Shoup
          Please look at my club www.sccmrrc.org
          +++++++++++++++++++++++++

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Boone Morrison" <boone@...>
          To: <on3@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2008 9:37 PM
          Subject: Re: [on3] So, How extreme do we get?


          > JD:
          >
          > Thanks for the kind words, and enjoy the fishing. Kona is having a
          > great season!
          >
          > As for "how much".
          >
          > Back to my illusive word (very, very
          > subjective)..."verisimilitude"...
          > "the appearance of being correct". Very important, very hard to
          > define because
          > it is so personal.
          >
          > In my own work I am not able to see many buildings AT THE TIME
          > PERIOD I AM
          > DEPICTING, so I got to work with historic photos, and occasionally
          > with a rebuilt
          > actual building. The town of Occidental - the main "urban" center
          > on
          > my layout,
          > has about 25% of the buildings from 1889 still standing - some a bit
          > altered, all
          > upkept to a good level and that is helpful.
          >
          > I suggest doing some personal experiments. Find a building of the
          > same type of
          > construction you want (wood frame, brick, stone, etc) that has been
          > in service
          > for a time - not broken down (unless that is what you want). Then
          > stand there
          > and LOOK AT IT from a distance that makes it appear about the size
          > of
          > your
          > model....now, WHAT CAN YOU SEE? Nail heads? Wood grain? Failing
          > paint?
          >
          > This is the place you are gathering the input that will enable you
          > to
          > bring that
          > illusive judgment into play - "just what looks right here". You can
          > then bring
          > this (mentally) back to your bench and use it to determine if you
          > achieve verisimilitude
          > on a given project. "Does this wall look right?"...well, compare
          > that to your mental
          > (or photographic, or both) image. What do you see? Is that wood
          > grain "too much"?
          >
          > So, one is groping here, building a mental vision of what "looks
          > right" to you.
          >
          > Sorry, Bro, that is about all I got!
          >
          > Aloha, Boone
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > On Jul 31, 2008, at 3:29 PM, JD wrote:
          >
          >> OK, nice topic or thread going for the last few days on overdone
          >> weathering. Boone, thanks for the ton of info you provided about
          >> real
          >> life engineering. The fact that Im coming to the Big Island in 3
          >> weeks
          >> and want to go fishing with some locals had nothing to do with my
          >> compliments...trust me.
          >>
          >> OK, so how far do we go in weathering? Are nail holes acceptible in
          >> O
          >> scale? How much "wood graining" do we gouge in? Ive seen alot of HO
          >> structures that had nail holes put in, even by many award winning
          >> modelers, and yet in reality they are way over scale. Ive seen O
          >> scale
          >> structures with "wood grain" that was 1-2 scale inches deep. How
          >> about
          >> contest modeling, any judges on the list and what are your thoughts
          >> on
          >> nail holes etc. How many missing or split/sagging boards would
          >> there
          >> be in reality before somebody fixed that wall? Again I know some of
          >> this is subjective, like trying to define porn...everyone is going
          >> to
          >> have a different viewpoint. Im just curious how the majority of
          >> people
          >> feel on this. JD.
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Remember, additional On3 photos and files can now be found at:
          >
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/On3photos
          >
          > ThanksYahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
        • Clifbpg
          Hi Guys: Let me propose a hypothetical: Two excellently done scratch built buildings from the same Magazine article are entered in a contest... Back up data
          Message 4 of 21 , Aug 1, 2008
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            Hi Guys:

            Let me propose a hypothetical: Two excellently done scratch built buildings from the same Magazine article are entered in a contest... Back up data generally for both is superb, from the same sources with identical photographs of the building in use.



            The models present no Signature techniques so the building by H.E Isgreat MMR cannot be told from that by J.O. Firstenterer by the judges.

            Essentially a unique situation of a level playing field except for one difference

            One model depicts a maintained building with moderate age fading slight wear and such as typically seen in use (Similar to the photos) The other model severely weathered but structurally sounds with cracked boards, nail holes lifted siding,missing shingles, torn shades etc, as from the wrong side of town.



            Which of these models will score highest in a NMRA judged contest??

            I know which would in my regional contests




            Recent Activity
            a.. 1New Members
            b.. 20New Photos
            c.. 9New Files
            Visit Your Group
            Drive Traffic
            Sponsored Search

            can help increase

            your site traffic.

            Yahoo! Groups
            Special K Challenge

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            are losing pounds.

            Yahoo! Groups
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            Learn how to take

            great pictures.
            .



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • rickshoup
            So, Cliff which would score higher? =========== ========= ========= Regards: Rick Shoup Please look at my club www.sccmrrc.org ... From: Clifbpg
            Message 5 of 21 , Aug 1, 2008
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              So, Cliff
              which would score higher?
              =========== ========= =========
              Regards: Rick Shoup
              Please look at my club www.sccmrrc.org
              +++++++++++++++++++++++++







              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Clifbpg" <cliffbpg@...>
              To: <on3@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Friday, August 01, 2008 10:55 AM
              Subject: Re: [on3] So, How extreme do we get?


              >
              >
              > Hi Guys:
              >
              > Let me propose a hypothetical: Two excellently done scratch built
              > buildings from the same Magazine article are entered in a contest...
              > Back up data generally for both is superb, from the same sources
              > with identical photographs of the building in use.
              >
              >
              >
              > The models present no Signature techniques so the building by H.E
              > Isgreat MMR cannot be told from that by J.O. Firstenterer by the
              > judges.
              >
              > Essentially a unique situation of a level playing field except for
              > one difference
              >
              > One model depicts a maintained building with moderate age fading
              > slight wear and such as typically seen in use (Similar to the
              > photos) The other model severely weathered but structurally sounds
              > with cracked boards, nail holes lifted siding,missing shingles, torn
              > shades etc, as from the wrong side of town.
              >
              >
              >
              > Which of these models will score highest in a NMRA judged contest??
              >
              > I know which would in my regional contests
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Recent Activity
              > a.. 1New Members
              > b.. 20New Photos
              > c.. 9New Files
              > Visit Your Group
              > Drive Traffic
              > Sponsored Search
              >
              > can help increase
              >
              > your site traffic.
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups
              > Special K Challenge
              >
              > Join others who
              >
              > are losing pounds.
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups
              > Familyographer Zone
              >
              > Learn how to take
              >
              > great pictures.
              > .
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Remember, additional On3 photos and files can now be found at:
              >
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/On3photos
              >
              > ThanksYahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
            • Bill Daniels
              This explains why I no longer have any interest in entering models into NMRA judgements... Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ ... From: Clifbpg
              Message 6 of 21 , Aug 1, 2008
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                This explains why I no longer have any interest in entering models into NMRA judgements...

                Bill Daniels

                Tucson, AZ

                --- On Fri, 8/1/08, Clifbpg <cliffbpg@...> wrote:
                From: Clifbpg <cliffbpg@...>
                Subject: Re: [on3] So, How extreme do we get?
                To: on3@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Friday, August 1, 2008, 8:55 AM















                Hi Guys:



                Let me propose a hypothetical: Two excellently done scratch built buildings from the same Magazine article are entered in a contest... Back up data generally for both is superb, from the same sources with identical photographs of the building in use.



                The models present no Signature techniques so the building by H.E Isgreat MMR cannot be told from that by J.O. Firstenterer by the judges.



                Essentially a unique situation of a level playing field except for one difference



                One model depicts a maintained building with moderate age fading slight wear and such as typically seen in use (Similar to the photos) The other model severely weathered but structurally sounds with cracked boards, nail holes lifted siding,missing shingles, torn shades etc, as from the wrong side of town.



                Which of these models will score highest in a NMRA judged contest??



                I know which would in my regional contests



                Recent Activity

                a.. 1New Members

                b.. 20New Photos

                c.. 9New Files

                Visit Your Group

                Drive Traffic

                Sponsored Search



                can help increase



                your site traffic.



                Yahoo! Groups

                Special K Challenge



                Join others who



                are losing pounds.



                Yahoo! Groups

                Familyographer Zone



                Learn how to take



                great pictures.

                .





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





























                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • nmrammr@verizon.net
                According to what you have outlined, if the construction, workmanship, details, and paperwork submitted were identical, I would score each model the same.
                Message 7 of 21 , Aug 1, 2008
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                  According to what you have outlined, if the construction, workmanship, details, and paperwork submitted were identical, I would score each model the same. This is because if the method of scoring according to the NMRA, each section is judged on the model, not compared to any other model. There is a scoring matrix for most of the sections. If there are no differences, then they should score identical. If a judge lets their personel preferences into the judging, then they are not being objective and not judge again. When I judge, I look at the model and documentation not who did the work. Contests that I have run have no names on the paperwork, just numbers.

                  Kurt S. Kramke


                  >From: Clifbpg <cliffbpg@...>
                  >Date: 2008/08/01 Fri AM 09:55:53 CDT
                  >To: on3@yahoogroups.com
                  >Subject: Re: [on3] So, How extreme do we get?

                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >Hi Guys:
                  >
                  >Let me propose a hypothetical: Two excellently done scratch built buildings from the same Magazine article are entered in a contest... Back up data generally for both is superb, from the same sources with identical photographs of the building in use.
                  >
                  >The models present no Signature techniques so the building by H.E Isgreat MMR cannot be told from that by J.O. Firstenterer by the judges.
                  >
                  >Essentially a unique situation of a level playing field except for one difference
                  >
                  >One model depicts a maintained building with moderate age fading slight wear and such as typically seen in use (Similar to the photos) The other model severely weathered but structurally sounds with cracked boards, nail holes lifted siding,missing shingles, torn shades etc, as from the wrong side of town.
                  >
                  >Which of these models will score highest in a NMRA judged contest??
                  >
                  >I know which would in my regional contests
                  >
                  >Recent Activity
                  > a.. 1New Members
                  > b.. 20New Photos
                  > c.. 9New Files
                  > Visit Your Group
                  > Drive Traffic
                  > Sponsored Search
                  >
                  >can help increase
                  >
                  >your site traffic.
                  >
                  >Yahoo! Groups
                  > Special K Challenge
                  >
                  >Join others who
                  >
                  >are losing pounds.
                  >
                  >Yahoo! Groups
                  > Familyographer Zone
                  >
                  >Learn how to take
                  >
                  >great pictures.
                  > .
                  >
                  >
                  >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                • Boone Morrison
                  Gang... Well, well....this thread has now taken a most interesting direction. Now we are not talking about models, but about scoring points in contests!
                  Message 8 of 21 , Aug 1, 2008
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                    Gang...

                    Well, well....this thread has now taken a most interesting direction.

                    Now we are not talking about models, but about scoring points in
                    contests! Goodness......

                    I have to agree with those who feel that contest "performance" has
                    little to do with the
                    quality of a model in many ways. As I see it, one is then working
                    against a prescribed
                    set of parameters defined by the rules of a club, not the purity of
                    any given model.

                    I have never, and will not enter contests, though those who have read
                    my articles on
                    structures I have built may feel the work is "contest quality". Be
                    that as it may - you
                    might not agree. I have long felt that THE CAMERA is the toughest
                    contest judge of
                    all! The type of structures I build are intended as depictions of
                    actual structures at a
                    given point in time, most often working from historic photographs -
                    occasionally an
                    existing building.

                    So, my "contest judge" is a camera pointed at the model from as near
                    an identical viewpoint
                    as possible as the historic photo (s) involved. Put your photo side
                    by side with the real thing
                    and look at it! To the degree that the model is "photographically
                    indistinguishable from the
                    real thing" you have succeeded. The farther it is from this goal is
                    the measure of the
                    shortcomings. Simple enough.

                    Have you achieved "verisimilitude"? Does it look "right"? That is
                    what we are after...NOT
                    adherence to a set of rules developed by a committee. I have seen
                    evolving a group of
                    "marker qualities" that almost list those "attributes" which "need to
                    be there" (according
                    to the lore of contest judges - we must assume). To the degree these
                    "typical detail points"
                    are present, so are the contest points.

                    So, you fellows who like rules, order, and the rote adherence to
                    group-think attitudes,
                    go for the contests.

                    Personally, I am more than content to build away to suit my view of
                    "looks right", enjoy
                    those models for what they are, and not try to impress some contest
                    judge whose work
                    I may, or may not feel is as good as mine. I will choose my mentors
                    and goals, not let a committee
                    do it for me.

                    Aloha, Boone







                    On Aug 1, 2008, at 8:04 AM, <nmrammr@...> wrote:

                    > According to what you have outlined, if the construction,
                    > workmanship, details, and paperwork submitted were identical, I
                    > would score each model the same. This is because if the method of
                    > scoring according to the NMRA, each section is judged on the model,
                    > not compared to any other model. There is a scoring matrix for most
                    > of the sections. If there are no differences, then they should
                    > score identical. If a judge lets their personel preferences into
                    > the judging, then they are not being objective and not judge again.
                    > When I judge, I look at the model and documentation not who did the
                    > work. Contests that I have run have no names on the paperwork, just
                    > numbers.
                    >
                    > Kurt S. Kramke
                    >
                    > >From: Clifbpg <cliffbpg@...>
                    > >Date: 2008/08/01 Fri AM 09:55:53 CDT
                    > >To: on3@yahoogroups.com
                    > >Subject: Re: [on3] So, How extreme do we get?
                    >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >Hi Guys:
                    > >
                    > >Let me propose a hypothetical: Two excellently done scratch built
                    > buildings from the same Magazine article are entered in a
                    > contest... Back up data generally for both is superb, from the same
                    > sources with identical photographs of the building in use.
                    > >
                    > >The models present no Signature techniques so the building by H.E
                    > Isgreat MMR cannot be told from that by J.O. Firstenterer by the
                    > judges.
                    > >
                    > >Essentially a unique situation of a level playing field except for
                    > one difference
                    > >
                    > >One model depicts a maintained building with moderate age fading
                    > slight wear and such as typically seen in use (Similar to the
                    > photos) The other model severely weathered but structurally sounds
                    > with cracked boards, nail holes lifted siding,missing shingles,
                    > torn shades etc, as from the wrong side of town.
                    > >
                    > >Which of these models will score highest in a NMRA judged contest??
                    > >
                    > >I know which would in my regional contests
                    > >
                    > >Recent Activity
                    > > a.. 1New Members
                    > > b.. 20New Photos
                    > > c.. 9New Files
                    > > Visit Your Group
                    > > Drive Traffic
                    > > Sponsored Search
                    > >
                    > >can help increase
                    > >
                    > >your site traffic.
                    > >
                    > >Yahoo! Groups
                    > > Special K Challenge
                    > >
                    > >Join others who
                    > >
                    > >are losing pounds.
                    > >
                    > >Yahoo! Groups
                    > > Familyographer Zone
                    > >
                    > >Learn how to take
                    > >
                    > >great pictures.
                    > > .
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Clifbpg
                    My Guys would go for the wrong side of town ---Cliff F ... From: rickshoup To: on3@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 01, 2008 11:00 AM Subject: Re: [on3]
                    Message 9 of 21 , Aug 1, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      My Guys would go for the wrong side of town ---Cliff F
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: rickshoup
                      To: on3@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Friday, August 01, 2008 11:00 AM
                      Subject: Re: [on3] So, How extreme do we get?


                      So, Cliff
                      which would score higher?
                      =========== ========= =========
                      Regards: Rick Shoup
                      Please look at my club www.sccmrrc.org
                      +++++++++++++++++++++++++

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Clifbpg" <cliffbpg@...>
                      To: <on3@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Friday, August 01, 2008 10:55 AM
                      Subject: Re: [on3] So, How extreme do we get?

                      >
                      >
                      > Hi Guys:
                      >
                      > Let me propose a hypothetical: Two excellently done scratch built
                      > buildings from the same Magazine article are entered in a contest...
                      > Back up data generally for both is superb, from the same sources
                      > with identical photographs of the building in use.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > The models present no Signature techniques so the building by H.E
                      > Isgreat MMR cannot be told from that by J.O. Firstenterer by the
                      > judges.
                      >
                      > Essentially a unique situation of a level playing field except for
                      > one difference
                      >
                      > One model depicts a maintained building with moderate age fading
                      > slight wear and such as typically seen in use (Similar to the
                      > photos) The other model severely weathered but structurally sounds
                      > with cracked boards, nail holes lifted siding,missing shingles, torn
                      > shades etc, as from the wrong side of town.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Which of these models will score highest in a NMRA judged contest??
                      >
                      > I know which would in my regional contests
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Recent Activity
                      > a.. 1New Members
                      > b.. 20New Photos
                      > c.. 9New Files
                      > Visit Your Group
                      > Drive Traffic
                      > Sponsored Search
                      >
                      > can help increase
                      >
                      > your site traffic.
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups
                      > Special K Challenge
                      >
                      > Join others who
                      >
                      > are losing pounds.
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups
                      > Familyographer Zone
                      >
                      > Learn how to take
                      >
                      > great pictures.
                      > .
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > Remember, additional On3 photos and files can now be found at:
                      >
                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/On3photos
                      >
                      > ThanksYahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Boone Morrison
                      Gang: My guys .....now, who might my guys be? Aloha, Boone ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      Message 10 of 21 , Aug 1, 2008
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                        Gang:

                        "My guys".....now, who might "my guys" be?

                        Aloha, Boone





                        On Aug 1, 2008, at 11:44 AM, Clifbpg wrote:

                        > My Guys would go for the wrong side of town ---Cliff F
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: rickshoup
                        > To: on3@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Friday, August 01, 2008 11:00 AM
                        > Subject: Re: [on3] So, How extreme do we get?
                        >
                        > So, Cliff
                        > which would score higher?
                        > =========== ========= =========
                        > Regards: Rick Shoup
                        > Please look at my club www.sccmrrc.org
                        > +++++++++++++++++++++++++
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: "Clifbpg" <cliffbpg@...>
                        > To: <on3@yahoogroups.com>
                        > Sent: Friday, August 01, 2008 10:55 AM
                        > Subject: Re: [on3] So, How extreme do we get?
                        >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Hi Guys:
                        > >
                        > > Let me propose a hypothetical: Two excellently done scratch built
                        > > buildings from the same Magazine article are entered in a contest...
                        > > Back up data generally for both is superb, from the same sources
                        > > with identical photographs of the building in use.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > The models present no Signature techniques so the building by H.E
                        > > Isgreat MMR cannot be told from that by J.O. Firstenterer by the
                        > > judges.
                        > >
                        > > Essentially a unique situation of a level playing field except for
                        > > one difference
                        > >
                        > > One model depicts a maintained building with moderate age fading
                        > > slight wear and such as typically seen in use (Similar to the
                        > > photos) The other model severely weathered but structurally sounds
                        > > with cracked boards, nail holes lifted siding,missing shingles, torn
                        > > shades etc, as from the wrong side of town.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Which of these models will score highest in a NMRA judged contest??
                        > >
                        > > I know which would in my regional contests
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Recent Activity
                        > > a.. 1New Members
                        > > b.. 20New Photos
                        > > c.. 9New Files
                        > > Visit Your Group
                        > > Drive Traffic
                        > > Sponsored Search
                        > >
                        > > can help increase
                        > >
                        > > your site traffic.
                        > >
                        > > Yahoo! Groups
                        > > Special K Challenge
                        > >
                        > > Join others who
                        > >
                        > > are losing pounds.
                        > >
                        > > Yahoo! Groups
                        > > Familyographer Zone
                        > >
                        > > Learn how to take
                        > >
                        > > great pictures.
                        > > .
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ------------------------------------
                        > >
                        > > Remember, additional On3 photos and files can now be found at:
                        > >
                        > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/On3photos
                        > >
                        > > ThanksYahoo! Groups Links
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Clifbpg
                        JUDGES--- NMRA type . Apologize for saying they are my Guys. ----Cliff F ... From: Boone Morrison To: on3@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 01, 2008 5:51
                        Message 11 of 21 , Aug 1, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment
                          JUDGES--- NMRA type . Apologize for saying they are my Guys. ----Cliff F
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Boone Morrison
                          To: on3@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Friday, August 01, 2008 5:51 PM
                          Subject: Re: [on3] So, How extreme do we get?


                          Gang:

                          "My guys".....now, who might "my guys" be?

                          Aloha, Boone

                          On Aug 1, 2008, at 11:44 AM, Clifbpg wrote:

                          > My Guys would go for the wrong side of town ---Cliff F
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: rickshoup
                          > To: on3@yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: Friday, August 01, 2008 11:00 AM
                          > Subject: Re: [on3] So, How extreme do we get?
                          >
                          > So, Cliff
                          > which would score higher?
                          > =========== ========= =========
                          > Regards: Rick Shoup
                          > Please look at my club www.sccmrrc.org
                          > +++++++++++++++++++++++++
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: "Clifbpg" <cliffbpg@...>
                          > To: <on3@yahoogroups.com>
                          > Sent: Friday, August 01, 2008 10:55 AM
                          > Subject: Re: [on3] So, How extreme do we get?
                          >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Hi Guys:
                          > >
                          > > Let me propose a hypothetical: Two excellently done scratch built
                          > > buildings from the same Magazine article are entered in a contest...
                          > > Back up data generally for both is superb, from the same sources
                          > > with identical photographs of the building in use.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > The models present no Signature techniques so the building by H.E
                          > > Isgreat MMR cannot be told from that by J.O. Firstenterer by the
                          > > judges.
                          > >
                          > > Essentially a unique situation of a level playing field except for
                          > > one difference
                          > >
                          > > One model depicts a maintained building with moderate age fading
                          > > slight wear and such as typically seen in use (Similar to the
                          > > photos) The other model severely weathered but structurally sounds
                          > > with cracked boards, nail holes lifted siding,missing shingles, torn
                          > > shades etc, as from the wrong side of town.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Which of these models will score highest in a NMRA judged contest??
                          > >
                          > > I know which would in my regional contests
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Recent Activity
                          > > a.. 1New Members
                          > > b.. 20New Photos
                          > > c.. 9New Files
                          > > Visit Your Group
                          > > Drive Traffic
                          > > Sponsored Search
                          > >
                          > > can help increase
                          > >
                          > > your site traffic.
                          > >
                          > > Yahoo! Groups
                          > > Special K Challenge
                          > >
                          > > Join others who
                          > >
                          > > are losing pounds.
                          > >
                          > > Yahoo! Groups
                          > > Familyographer Zone
                          > >
                          > > Learn how to take
                          > >
                          > > great pictures.
                          > > .
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > ------------------------------------
                          > >
                          > > Remember, additional On3 photos and files can now be found at:
                          > >
                          > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/On3photos
                          > >
                          > > ThanksYahoo! Groups Links
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Boone Morrison
                          Cliff - Thanks for the clarification - I was just confused, thinking that there was some other group I was not aware of. I think your use of NMR type is
                          Message 12 of 21 , Aug 1, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Cliff -

                            Thanks for the clarification - I was just confused, thinking that
                            there was some other
                            group I was not aware of.

                            I think your use of "NMR type" is quite interesting. Just what
                            characterizes this "type"?

                            You got to forgive my, I am stuck way out here in Paradise, cut off
                            entirely from what
                            I am told is the mainstream of the hobby. I rely on the magazines,
                            chat groups, and
                            close friends to keep me posted on what is "in" these days.

                            Mostly I just putter along here building models that look good to
                            me. Not much of
                            a criteria, but that is what I got.

                            Anyway, I am sure learning a good deal about the values and standards
                            in the larger
                            hobby in this thread. Most of this just leaves me with...."hummmm"
                            as I try to
                            ponder what it all means.

                            Aloha, Boone





                            On Aug 1, 2008, at 12:39 PM, Clifbpg wrote:

                            > JUDGES--- NMRA type . Apologize for saying they are my Guys. ----
                            > Cliff F
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: Boone Morrison
                            > To: on3@yahoogroups.com
                            > Sent: Friday, August 01, 2008 5:51 PM
                            > Subject: Re: [on3] So, How extreme do we get?
                            >
                            > Gang:
                            >
                            > "My guys".....now, who might "my guys" be?
                            >
                            > Aloha, Boone
                            >
                            > On Aug 1, 2008, at 11:44 AM, Clifbpg wrote:
                            >
                            > > My Guys would go for the wrong side of town ---Cliff F
                            > > ----- Original Message -----
                            > > From: rickshoup
                            > > To: on3@yahoogroups.com
                            > > Sent: Friday, August 01, 2008 11:00 AM
                            > > Subject: Re: [on3] So, How extreme do we get?
                            > >
                            > > So, Cliff
                            > > which would score higher?
                            > > =========== ========= =========
                            > > Regards: Rick Shoup
                            > > Please look at my club www.sccmrrc.org
                            > > +++++++++++++++++++++++++
                            > >
                            > > ----- Original Message -----
                            > > From: "Clifbpg" <cliffbpg@...>
                            > > To: <on3@yahoogroups.com>
                            > > Sent: Friday, August 01, 2008 10:55 AM
                            > > Subject: Re: [on3] So, How extreme do we get?
                            > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > Hi Guys:
                            > > >
                            > > > Let me propose a hypothetical: Two excellently done scratch built
                            > > > buildings from the same Magazine article are entered in a
                            > contest...
                            > > > Back up data generally for both is superb, from the same sources
                            > > > with identical photographs of the building in use.
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > The models present no Signature techniques so the building by H.E
                            > > > Isgreat MMR cannot be told from that by J.O. Firstenterer by the
                            > > > judges.
                            > > >
                            > > > Essentially a unique situation of a level playing field except for
                            > > > one difference
                            > > >
                            > > > One model depicts a maintained building with moderate age fading
                            > > > slight wear and such as typically seen in use (Similar to the
                            > > > photos) The other model severely weathered but structurally sounds
                            > > > with cracked boards, nail holes lifted siding,missing shingles,
                            > torn
                            > > > shades etc, as from the wrong side of town.
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > Which of these models will score highest in a NMRA judged
                            > contest??
                            > > >
                            > > > I know which would in my regional contests
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > Recent Activity
                            > > > a.. 1New Members
                            > > > b.. 20New Photos
                            > > > c.. 9New Files
                            > > > Visit Your Group
                            > > > Drive Traffic
                            > > > Sponsored Search
                            > > >
                            > > > can help increase
                            > > >
                            > > > your site traffic.
                            > > >
                            > > > Yahoo! Groups
                            > > > Special K Challenge
                            > > >
                            > > > Join others who
                            > > >
                            > > > are losing pounds.
                            > > >
                            > > > Yahoo! Groups
                            > > > Familyographer Zone
                            > > >
                            > > > Learn how to take
                            > > >
                            > > > great pictures.
                            > > > .
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > ------------------------------------
                            > > >
                            > > > Remember, additional On3 photos and files can now be found at:
                            > > >
                            > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/On3photos
                            > > >
                            > > > ThanksYahoo! Groups Links
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >
                            >



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • John Stokes
                            If indeed the NMRA types and judges would favor an exaggerated model over one that is a close representation of a prototype, using the standard Boone
                            Message 13 of 21 , Aug 1, 2008
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                              If indeed the "NMRA types" and "judges" would favor an exaggerated model over one that is a close representation of a prototype, using the standard Boone mentions of how does it look in a scale context of distance to size, it then strikes me as odd that in the scale locomotive and equipment categories these same folks seem to go to the other extreme. They do not apparently favor rivets on a locomotive that are about 2 1/2 times scale size for effect, or sagging, or boards that have deep gashes all over them and appear to have a scale two inch gap between them, and weathering that makes them look as if they have survived a mud slide and dust and ash fall out from Mt. St. Helens. In the locomotive and car categories the photos of the NMRA contest winners appear to be those that come closest to a scale approximation of the prototype, a different result than for structures, apparently.


                              There has been a very heated discussion of this topic on a couple of the On30 groups the last month or so, and it seems that especially in the building or structure area the "hobby" has divided into perhaps two main groups. 1). Those who build structures as an end in itself and lavish attention on them to show off their skill in detail and weathering, and making something you view at maybe 12 actual inches on the show stand look as if the detail is in fact only 12 actual inches away instead of 48 feet in O scale. 2). The other group, probably the minority, models so that when the structure is placed on the layout, which is the main objective, not the building per se, look as if it is being viewed from the same distance as the locomotives and cars and all else, so that nail heads appear to be in scale (and darn near invisible at that scale distance), and things look like a same scale size photo of the real thing would look. There are of course, modelers who cover the area in between, who model for effect but in a toned down way, and some who just build a kit as it comes and never bother to weather it to blend into the scene as it would in real life. But I think the above illustrates the two main camps. And I am assuming each camp, and the in-betweens, are having fun in their own way.


                              John Stokes
                              Bellevue, WA



                              To: on3@yahoogroups.comFrom: boone@...: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 13:11:59 -1000Subject: Re: [on3] So, How extreme do we get?




                              Cliff -Thanks for the clarification - I was just confused, thinking that there was some othergroup I was not aware of.I think your use of "NMR type" is quite interesting. Just what characterizes this "type"?You got to forgive my, I am stuck way out here in Paradise, cut off entirely from whatI am told is the mainstream of the hobby. I rely on the magazines, chat groups, andclose friends to keep me posted on what is "in" these days.Mostly I just putter along here building models that look good to me. Not much ofa criteria, but that is what I got.Anyway, I am sure learning a good deal about the values and standards in the largerhobby in this thread. Most of this just leaves me with...."hummmm" as I try toponder what it all means.Aloha, BooneOn Aug 1, 2008, at 12:39 PM, Clifbpg wrote:> JUDGES--- NMRA type . Apologize for saying they are my Guys. ---- > Cliff F> ----- Original Message -----> From: Boone Morrison> To: on3@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, August 01, 2008 5:51 PM> Subject: Re: [on3] So, How extreme do we get?>> Gang:>> "My guys".....now, who might "my guys" be?>> Aloha, Boone>> On Aug 1, 2008, at 11:44 AM, Clifbpg wrote:>> > My Guys would go for the wrong side of town ---Cliff F> > ----- Original Message -----> > From: rickshoup> > To: on3@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Friday, August 01, 2008 11:00 AM> > Subject: Re: [on3] So, How extreme do we get?> >> > So, Cliff> > which would score higher?> > =========== ========= =========> > Regards: Rick Shoup> > Please look at my club www.sccmrrc.org> > +++++++++++++++++++++++++> >> > ----- Original Message -----> > From: "Clifbpg" <cliffbpg@...>> > To: <on3@yahoogroups.com>> > Sent: Friday, August 01, 2008 10:55 AM> > Subject: Re: [on3] So, How extreme do we get?> >> > >> > >> > > Hi Guys:> > >> > > Let me propose a hypothetical: Two excellently done scratch built> > > buildings from the same Magazine article are entered in a > contest...> > > Back up data generally for both is superb, from the same sources> > > with identical photographs of the building in use.> > >> > >> > >> > > The models present no Signature techniques so the building by H.E> > > Isgreat MMR cannot be told from that by J.O. Firstenterer by the> > > judges.> > >> > > Essentially a unique situation of a level playing field except for> > > one difference> > >> > > One model depicts a maintained building with moderate age fading> > > slight wear and such as typically seen in use (Similar to the> > > photos) The other model severely weathered but structurally sounds> > > with cracked boards, nail holes lifted siding,missing shingles, > torn> > > shades etc, as from the wrong side of town.> > >> > >> > >> > > Which of these models will score highest in a NMRA judged > contest??> > >> > > I know which would in my regional contests> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Recent Activity> > > a.. 1New Members> > > b.. 20New Photos> > > c.. 9New Files> > > Visit Your Group> > > Drive Traffic> > > Sponsored Search> > >> > > can help increase> > >> > > your site traffic.> > >> > > Yahoo! Groups> > > Special K Challenge> > >> > > Join others who> > >> > > are losing pounds.> > >> > > Yahoo! Groups> > > Familyographer Zone> > >> > > Learn how to take> > >> > > great pictures.> > > .> > >> > >> > >> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]> > >> > >> > > ------------------------------------> > >> > > Remember, additional On3 photos and files can now be found at:> > >> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/On3photos> > >> > > ThanksYahoo! Groups Links> > >> > >> > >> >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]> >> >> >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • JAMES CHRISTENSEN
                              Well said, Boone. Thank you. Jim To: on3@yahoogroups.comFrom: boone@aloha.netDate: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 09:50:27 -1000Subject: Re: [on3] So, How extreme do we get?
                              Message 14 of 21 , Aug 2, 2008
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Well said, Boone. Thank you.

                                Jim



                                To: on3@yahoogroups.comFrom: boone@...: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 09:50:27 -1000Subject: Re: [on3] So, How extreme do we get?




                                Gang...Well, well....this thread has now taken a most interesting direction.Now we are not talking about models, but about scoring points in contests! Goodness......I have to agree with those who feel that contest "performance" has little to do with thequality of a model in many ways. As I see it, one is then working against a prescribedset of parameters defined by the rules of a club, not the purity of any given model.I have never, and will not enter contests, though those who have read my articles onstructures I have built may feel the work is "contest quality". Be that as it may - youmight not agree. I have long felt that THE CAMERA is the toughest contest judge ofall! The type of structures I build are intended as depictions of actual structures at agiven point in time, most often working from historic photographs - occasionally anexisting building.So, my "contest judge" is a camera pointed at the model from as near an identical viewpointas possible as the historic photo (s) involved. Put your photo side by side with the real thingand look at it! To the degree that the model is "photographically indistinguishable from thereal thing" you have succeeded. The farther it is from this goal is the measure of theshortcomings. Simple enough.Have you achieved "verisimilitude"? Does it look "right"? That is what we are after...NOTadherence to a set of rules developed by a committee. I have seen evolving a group of"marker qualities" that almost list those "attributes" which "need to be there" (accordingto the lore of contest judges - we must assume). To the degree these "typical detail points"are present, so are the contest points.So, you fellows who like rules, order, and the rote adherence to group-think attitudes,go for the contests.Personally, I am more than content to build away to suit my view of "looks right", enjoythose models for what they are, and not try to impress some contest judge whose workI may, or may not feel is as good as mine. I will choose my mentors and goals, not let a committeedo it for me.Aloha, BooneOn Aug 1, 2008, at 8:04 AM, <nmrammr@...> wrote:> According to what you have outlined, if the construction, > workmanship, details, and paperwork submitted were identical, I > would score each model the same. This is because if the method of > scoring according to the NMRA, each section is judged on the model, > not compared to any other model. There is a scoring matrix for most > of the sections. If there are no differences, then they should > score identical. If a judge lets their personel preferences into > the judging, then they are not being objective and not judge again. > When I judge, I look at the model and documentation not who did the > work. Contests that I have run have no names on the paperwork, just > numbers.>> Kurt S. Kramke>> >From: Clifbpg <cliffbpg@...>> >Date: 2008/08/01 Fri AM 09:55:53 CDT> >To: on3@yahoogroups.com> >Subject: Re: [on3] So, How extreme do we get?>> >> >> >> >Hi Guys:> >> >Let me propose a hypothetical: Two excellently done scratch built > buildings from the same Magazine article are entered in a > contest... Back up data generally for both is superb, from the same > sources with identical photographs of the building in use.> >> >The models present no Signature techniques so the building by H.E > Isgreat MMR cannot be told from that by J.O. Firstenterer by the > judges.> >> >Essentially a unique situation of a level playing field except for > one difference> >> >One model depicts a maintained building with moderate age fading > slight wear and such as typically seen in use (Similar to the > photos) The other model severely weathered but structurally sounds > with cracked boards, nail holes lifted siding,missing shingles, > torn shades etc, as from the wrong side of town.> >> >Which of these models will score highest in a NMRA judged contest??> >> >I know which would in my regional contests> >> >Recent Activity> > a.. 1New Members> > b.. 20New Photos> > c.. 9New Files> > Visit Your Group> > Drive Traffic> > Sponsored Search> >> >can help increase> >> >your site traffic.> >> >Yahoo! Groups> > Special K Challenge> >> >Join others who> >> >are losing pounds.> >> >Yahoo! Groups> > Familyographer Zone> >> >Learn how to take> >> >great pictures.> > .> >> >> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]> >> >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Boone Morrison
                                Jim: Thanks for the kind comment. I hesitated for a while before posting that - let it sit for half a day before I sent it just to be sure I was not responding
                                Message 15 of 21 , Aug 2, 2008
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Jim:

                                  Thanks for the kind comment.

                                  I hesitated for a while before posting that - let it sit for half a
                                  day before I
                                  sent it just to be sure I was not responding in haste.

                                  It is such a touchy subject that I fear some may take it as a
                                  personal assault
                                  upon their pride, ego, or whatever. Some in the hobby seem to see
                                  that gaining
                                  some sort of "status" is important - which, in my opinion it is not.
                                  Garnering a bunch
                                  of basically meaningless awards seems "important" to some, while to
                                  others enjoying
                                  the work of the hobby (model building) and the fellowship of like-
                                  minded folks is
                                  the real core of the thing. At least it is to me.

                                  There is enough competition in "real life" that having it become part
                                  of one's hobby
                                  seems to be rather a poor choice. Using "competition" as a means to
                                  drive ones work
                                  is also somewhat silly - do it for the love not the desire for
                                  adulation by others!

                                  In the end modeling is very, very personal - so much so that any
                                  attempt to define what
                                  is "good" vs what is not seems nearly impossible - nobody will find
                                  100% agreement in the
                                  effort, that is for sure.

                                  My own avoidance of contests should in no way color the view of
                                  others (not that it could)
                                  and if that is what pleases you, feel free. I do enjoy the contest
                                  rooms at the few conventions
                                  I am able to attend (it is quite a trek from Hawaii to almost
                                  anywhere else) and find great
                                  inspiration in seeing the work of others - both "in the flesh" and
                                  through shared photos.
                                  Personally, I feel the "popular vote" contests may be more valid than
                                  the standard "NMRA
                                  Judging" in that they represent folks honest reactions, not any
                                  adherence to a list of
                                  attributes worked up by others. Again, you may not agree. Perhaps
                                  the one downside of
                                  popular votes, which I have heard from many more experienced than I,
                                  is that the large scale
                                  models seem to dominate any class where they are displayed (and are
                                  competing) with smaller
                                  scales - which is inherently unfair to the smaller scale. Perhaps it
                                  is because some fine the
                                  large scale stuff "more impressive"...or, just that the average
                                  viewer can more easily SEE the
                                  work!

                                  I agree with those who are feeling this subject may have become
                                  overworked and because
                                  of that I will lurk and read, rather than continue contributions.

                                  "In conclusion" I want to reiterate my suggestion that developing a
                                  working sense of that
                                  illusive word, "verisimilitude" lies at the root of good work. Being
                                  able to see if it is "right"
                                  (as you see things) is the foundation. As curator of two large and
                                  respected art galleries
                                  over the years I was responsible for deciding which work to carry,
                                  and which to pass on.
                                  That is tough! In the end, it was that sense of "does this look
                                  right" that carried the day.
                                  If the artist cannot see that it is not right it never will be!
                                  Perhaps this is that nasty word
                                  "talent" coming up. An art teacher can teach technique quite easily
                                  but you can never teach
                                  talent - it is either there or not. Of course, if indeed it is there
                                  it can certainly be developed.
                                  I think it goes for all creative work - if you cannot tell that the
                                  work is unsuccessful you can
                                  never move beyond that level.

                                  So, look, remember, record, and develop a sense for whatever style
                                  (or degree of weathering)
                                  you prefer and then use that to judge as you putter along.

                                  As in past posts, whatever else you do HAVE FUN DOING IT. My only
                                  interest here is, and has
                                  been, to encourage you to think about what you do, "see" what you are
                                  doing, and come to
                                  an understanding of what it is in the larger context.

                                  I will be in Portland for the Convention and would enjoy a
                                  conversation with anyone who is
                                  interested. Feel free to have a chat.


                                  Aloha, Boone








                                  On Aug 2, 2008, at 12:04 PM, JAMES CHRISTENSEN wrote:

                                  > Well said, Boone. Thank you.
                                  >
                                  > Jim
                                  >
                                  > To: on3@yahoogroups.comFrom: boone@...: Fri, 1 Aug 2008
                                  > 09:50:27 -1000Subject: Re: [on3] So, How extreme do we get?
                                  >
                                  > Gang...Well, well....this thread has now taken a most interesting
                                  > direction.Now we are not talking about models, but about scoring
                                  > points in contests! Goodness......I have to agree with those who
                                  > feel that contest "performance" has little to do with thequality of
                                  > a model in many ways. As I see it, one is then working against a
                                  > prescribedset of parameters defined by the rules of a club, not the
                                  > purity of any given model.I have never, and will not enter
                                  > contests, though those who have read my articles onstructures I
                                  > have built may feel the work is "contest quality". Be that as it
                                  > may - youmight not agree. I have long felt that THE CAMERA is the
                                  > toughest contest judge ofall! The type of structures I build are
                                  > intended as depictions of actual structures at agiven point in
                                  > time, most often working from historic photographs - occasionally
                                  > anexisting building.So, my "contest judge" is a camera pointed at
                                  > the model from as near an identical viewpointas possible as the
                                  > historic photo (s) involved. Put your photo side by side with the
                                  > real thingand look at it! To the degree that the model is
                                  > "photographically indistinguishable from thereal thing" you have
                                  > succeeded. The farther it is from this goal is the measure of
                                  > theshortcomings. Simple enough.Have you achieved "verisimilitude"?
                                  > Does it look "right"? That is what we are after...NOTadherence to a
                                  > set of rules developed by a committee. I have seen evolving a group
                                  > of"marker qualities" that almost list those "attributes" which
                                  > "need to be there" (accordingto the lore of contest judges - we
                                  > must assume). To the degree these "typical detail points"are
                                  > present, so are the contest points.So, you fellows who like rules,
                                  > order, and the rote adherence to group-think attitudes,go for the
                                  > contests.Personally, I am more than content to build away to suit
                                  > my view of "looks right", enjoythose models for what they are, and
                                  > not try to impress some contest judge whose workI may, or may not
                                  > feel is as good as mine. I will choose my mentors and goals, not
                                  > let a committeedo it for me.Aloha, BooneOn Aug 1, 2008, at 8:04 AM,
                                  > <nmrammr@...> wrote:> According to what you have outlined,
                                  > if the construction, > workmanship, details, and paperwork
                                  > submitted were identical, I > would score each model the same. This
                                  > is because if the method of > scoring according to the NMRA, each
                                  > section is judged on the model, > not compared to any other model.
                                  > There is a scoring matrix for most > of the sections. If there are
                                  > no differences, then they should > score identical. If a judge lets
                                  > their personel preferences into > the judging, then they are not
                                  > being objective and not judge again. > When I judge, I look at the
                                  > model and documentation not who did the > work. Contests that I
                                  > have run have no names on the paperwork, just > numbers.>> Kurt S.
                                  > Kramke>> >From: Clifbpg <cliffbpg@...>> >Date: 2008/08/01
                                  > Fri AM 09:55:53 CDT> >To: on3@yahoogroups.com> >Subject: Re: [on3]
                                  > So, How extreme do we get?>> >> >> >> >Hi Guys:> >> >Let me propose
                                  > a hypothetical: Two excellently done scratch built > buildings from
                                  > the same Magazine article are entered in a > contest... Back up
                                  > data generally for both is superb, from the same > sources with
                                  > identical photographs of the building in use.> >> >The models
                                  > present no Signature techniques so the building by H.E > Isgreat
                                  > MMR cannot be told from that by J.O. Firstenterer by the > judges.>
                                  > >> >Essentially a unique situation of a level playing field except
                                  > for > one difference> >> >One model depicts a maintained building
                                  > with moderate age fading > slight wear and such as typically seen
                                  > in use (Similar to the > photos) The other model severely weathered
                                  > but structurally sounds > with cracked boards, nail holes lifted
                                  > siding,missing shingles, > torn shades etc, as from the wrong side
                                  > of town.> >> >Which of these models will score highest in a NMRA
                                  > judged contest??> >> >I know which would in my regional contests>
                                  > >> >Recent Activity> > a.. 1New Members> > b.. 20New Photos> > c..
                                  > 9New Files> > Visit Your Group> > Drive Traffic> > Sponsored
                                  > Search> >> >can help increase> >> >your site traffic.> >> >Yahoo!
                                  > Groups> > Special K Challenge> >> >Join others who> >> >are losing
                                  > pounds.> >> >Yahoo! Groups> > Familyographer Zone> >> >Learn how to
                                  > take> >> >great pictures.> > .> >> >> >[Non-text portions of this
                                  > message have been removed]> >> >>>> [Non-text portions of this
                                  > message have been removed]
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >



                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Clifbpg
                                  After 50 + posts WHO has changed their minds?? My delete finger is worn out. Enough Already as they say locally ... From: Boone Morrison To:
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Aug 2, 2008
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    After 50 + posts WHO has changed their minds?? My delete finger is worn out. "Enough Already" as they say locally
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: Boone Morrison
                                    To: on3@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2008 6:42 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [on3] So, How extreme do we get?


                                    Jim:

                                    Thanks for the kind comment.

                                    I hesitated for a while before posting that - let it sit for half a
                                    day before I
                                    sent it just to be sure I was not responding in haste.

                                    It is such a touchy subject that I fear some may take it as a
                                    personal assault
                                    upon their pride, ego, or whatever. Some in the hobby seem to see
                                    that gaining
                                    some sort of "status" is important - which, in my opinion it is not.
                                    Garnering a bunch
                                    of basically meaningless awards seems "important" to some, while to
                                    others enjoying
                                    the work of the hobby (model building) and the fellowship of like-
                                    minded folks is
                                    the real core of the thing. At least it is to me.

                                    There is enough competition in "real life" that having it become part
                                    of one's hobby
                                    seems to be rather a poor choice. Using "competition" as a means to
                                    drive ones work
                                    is also somewhat silly - do it for the love not the desire for
                                    adulation by others!

                                    In the end modeling is very, very personal - so much so that any
                                    attempt to define what
                                    is "good" vs what is not seems nearly impossible - nobody will find
                                    100% agreement in the
                                    effort, that is for sure.

                                    My own avoidance of contests should in no way color the view of
                                    others (not that it could)
                                    and if that is what pleases you, feel free. I do enjoy the contest
                                    rooms at the few conventions
                                    I am able to attend (it is quite a trek from Hawaii to almost
                                    anywhere else) and find great
                                    inspiration in seeing the work of others - both "in the flesh" and
                                    through shared photos.
                                    Personally, I feel the "popular vote" contests may be more valid than
                                    the standard "NMRA
                                    Judging" in that they represent folks honest reactions, not any
                                    adherence to a list of
                                    attributes worked up by others. Again, you may not agree. Perhaps
                                    the one downside of
                                    popular votes, which I have heard from many more experienced than I,
                                    is that the large scale
                                    models seem to dominate any class where they are displayed (and are
                                    competing) with smaller
                                    scales - which is inherently unfair to the smaller scale. Perhaps it
                                    is because some fine the
                                    large scale stuff "more impressive"...or, just that the average
                                    viewer can more easily SEE the
                                    work!

                                    I agree with those who are feeling this subject may have become
                                    overworked and because
                                    of that I will lurk and read, rather than continue contributions.

                                    "In conclusion" I want to reiterate my suggestion that developing a
                                    working sense of that
                                    illusive word, "verisimilitude" lies at the root of good work. Being
                                    able to see if it is "right"
                                    (as you see things) is the foundation. As curator of two large and
                                    respected art galleries
                                    over the years I was responsible for deciding which work to carry,
                                    and which to pass on.
                                    That is tough! In the end, it was that sense of "does this look
                                    right" that carried the day.
                                    If the artist cannot see that it is not right it never will be!
                                    Perhaps this is that nasty word
                                    "talent" coming up. An art teacher can teach technique quite easily
                                    but you can never teach
                                    talent - it is either there or not. Of course, if indeed it is there
                                    it can certainly be developed.
                                    I think it goes for all creative work - if you cannot tell that the
                                    work is unsuccessful you can
                                    never move beyond that level.

                                    So, look, remember, record, and develop a sense for whatever style
                                    (or degree of weathering)
                                    you prefer and then use that to judge as you putter along.

                                    As in past posts, whatever else you do HAVE FUN DOING IT. My only
                                    interest here is, and has
                                    been, to encourage you to think about what you do, "see" what you are
                                    doing, and come to
                                    an understanding of what it is in the larger context.

                                    I will be in Portland for the Convention and would enjoy a
                                    conversation with anyone who is
                                    interested. Feel free to have a chat.

                                    Aloha, Boone

                                    On Aug 2, 2008, at 12:04 PM, JAMES CHRISTENSEN wrote:

                                    > Well said, Boone. Thank you.
                                    >
                                    > Jim
                                    >
                                    > To: on3@yahoogroups.comFrom: boone@...: Fri, 1 Aug 2008
                                    > 09:50:27 -1000Subject: Re: [on3] So, How extreme do we get?
                                    >
                                    > Gang...Well, well....this thread has now taken a most interesting
                                    > direction.Now we are not talking about models, but about scoring
                                    > points in contests! Goodness......I have to agree with those who
                                    > feel that contest "performance" has little to do with thequality of
                                    > a model in many ways. As I see it, one is then working against a
                                    > prescribedset of parameters defined by the rules of a club, not the
                                    > purity of any given model.I have never, and will not enter
                                    > contests, though those who have read my articles onstructures I
                                    > have built may feel the work is "contest quality". Be that as it
                                    > may - youmight not agree. I have long felt that THE CAMERA is the
                                    > toughest contest judge ofall! The type of structures I build are
                                    > intended as depictions of actual structures at agiven point in
                                    > time, most often working from historic photographs - occasionally
                                    > anexisting building.So, my "contest judge" is a camera pointed at
                                    > the model from as near an identical viewpointas possible as the
                                    > historic photo (s) involved. Put your photo side by side with the
                                    > real thingand look at it! To the degree that the model is
                                    > "photographically indistinguishable from thereal thing" you have
                                    > succeeded. The farther it is from this goal is the measure of
                                    > theshortcomings. Simple enough.Have you achieved "verisimilitude"?
                                    > Does it look "right"? That is what we are after...NOTadherence to a
                                    > set of rules developed by a committee. I have seen evolving a group
                                    > of"marker qualities" that almost list those "attributes" which
                                    > "need to be there" (accordingto the lore of contest judges - we
                                    > must assume). To the degree these "typical detail points"are
                                    > present, so are the contest points.So, you fellows who like rules,
                                    > order, and the rote adherence to group-think attitudes,go for the
                                    > contests.Personally, I am more than content to build away to suit
                                    > my view of "looks right", enjoythose models for what they are, and
                                    > not try to impress some contest judge whose workI may, or may not
                                    > feel is as good as mine. I will choose my mentors and goals, not
                                    > let a committeedo it for me.Aloha, BooneOn Aug 1, 2008, at 8:04 AM,
                                    > <nmrammr@...> wrote:> According to what you have outlined,
                                    > if the construction, > workmanship, details, and paperwork
                                    > submitted were identical, I > would score each model the same. This
                                    > is because if the method of > scoring according to the NMRA, each
                                    > section is judged on the model, > not compared to any other model.
                                    > There is a scoring matrix for most > of the sections. If there are
                                    > no differences, then they should > score identical. If a judge lets
                                    > their personel preferences into > the judging, then they are not
                                    > being objective and not judge again. > When I judge, I look at the
                                    > model and documentation not who did the > work. Contests that I
                                    > have run have no names on the paperwork, just > numbers.>> Kurt S.
                                    > Kramke>> >From: Clifbpg <cliffbpg@...>> >Date: 2008/08/01
                                    > Fri AM 09:55:53 CDT> >To: on3@yahoogroups.com> >Subject: Re: [on3]
                                    > So, How extreme do we get?>> >> >> >> >Hi Guys:> >> >Let me propose
                                    > a hypothetical: Two excellently done scratch built > buildings from
                                    > the same Magazine article are entered in a > contest... Back up
                                    > data generally for both is superb, from the same > sources with
                                    > identical photographs of the building in use.> >> >The models
                                    > present no Signature techniques so the building by H.E > Isgreat
                                    > MMR cannot be told from that by J.O. Firstenterer by the > judges.>
                                    > >> >Essentially a unique situation of a level playing field except
                                    > for > one difference> >> >One model depicts a maintained building
                                    > with moderate age fading > slight wear and such as typically seen
                                    > in use (Similar to the > photos) The other model severely weathered
                                    > but structurally sounds > with cracked boards, nail holes lifted
                                    > siding,missing shingles, > torn shades etc, as from the wrong side
                                    > of town.> >> >Which of these models will score highest in a NMRA
                                    > judged contest??> >> >I know which would in my regional contests>
                                    > >> >Recent Activity> > a.. 1New Members> > b.. 20New Photos> > c..
                                    > 9New Files> > Visit Your Group> > Drive Traffic> > Sponsored
                                    > Search> >> >can help increase> >> >your site traffic.> >> >Yahoo!
                                    > Groups> > Special K Challenge> >> >Join others who> >> >are losing
                                    > pounds.> >> >Yahoo! Groups> > Familyographer Zone> >> >Learn how to
                                    > take> >> >great pictures.> > .> >> >> >[Non-text portions of this
                                    > message have been removed]> >> >>>> [Non-text portions of this
                                    > message have been removed]
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >

                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • John Stokes
                                    Cliff, The objective was not to change anyone s mind, but to talk and think about these different approaches to capturing the real world in a model. Some
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Aug 2, 2008
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Cliff,


                                      The objective was not to change anyone's mind, but to talk and think about these different approaches to capturing the real world in a model. Some people have publicly and privately said that they learned from the discussion, as have I, and if nothing else, it has given us all something to apply to the next structure, the next locomotive, the next car. Boone's conceptual thinking about "verisimilitude" and the meaninglessness of much of the "judging" and competition some modelers engage in to show off their work are both important things to ponder. So there has been some value, which is saying something when one considers the lack of depth of some other discussions on these groups.


                                      Yes there is the delete key, which would be used whether you agree with the content or not. And as far as I can tell, in this time period there has been no other great burning question or fascinating topic on this group. So lets talk about something you find interesting and see where it may take us.


                                      Onward and upward! Excelsior!


                                      John Stokes
                                      Bellevue, WA





                                      To: on3@yahoogroups.comFrom: cliffbpg@...: Sat, 2 Aug 2008 19:41:14 -0400Subject: Re: [on3] So, How extreme do we get?



                                      After 50 + posts WHO has changed their minds?? My delete finger is worn out. "Enough Already" as they say locally ----- Original Message ----- From: Boone Morrison To: on3@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2008 6:42 PMSubject: Re: [on3] So, How extreme do we get?Jim:Thanks for the kind comment.I hesitated for a while before posting that - let it sit for half a day before Isent it just to be sure I was not responding in haste.It is such a touchy subject that I fear some may take it as a personal assaultupon their pride, ego, or whatever. Some in the hobby seem to see that gainingsome sort of "status" is important - which, in my opinion it is not. Garnering a bunchof basically meaningless awards seems "important" to some, while to others enjoyingthe work of the hobby (model building) and the fellowship of like- minded folks isthe real core of the thing. At least it is to me.There is enough competition in "real life" that having it become part of one's hobbyseems to be rather a poor choice. Using "competition" as a means to drive ones workis also somewhat silly - do it for the love not the desire for adulation by others!In the end modeling is very, very personal - so much so that any attempt to define whatis "good" vs what is not seems nearly impossible - nobody will find 100% agreement in theeffort, that is for sure.



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                                    • Clifbpg
                                      John , Thanks for your gracious reply. My comments were not to criticize the original intent of the topic. I would be a fool if I didn t admit to appriciate
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Aug 3, 2008
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        John , Thanks for your gracious reply. My comments were not to criticize the original intent of the topic. I would be a fool if I didn't admit to appriciate hearing about some various approaches to the modeling of structures. I do have a problem with the subsequent seemingly endless ranting about "I am Better Than You because----". I apologize to those who actually supplied meaning full input on their approaches to modeling in this ever flowing stream of nonsense (this post is certainly a prime example of the drivel I'm complaining about) Cliff F---
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: John Stokes
                                        To: on3@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2008 11:29 PM
                                        Subject: [on3] Rhetorical questions


                                        Cliff,


                                        The objective was not to change anyone's mind, but to talk and think about these different approaches to capturing the real world in a model. Some people have publicly and privately said that they learned from the discussion, as have I, and if nothing else, it has given us all something to apply to the next structure, the next locomotive, the next car. Boone's conceptual thinking about "verisimilitude" and the meaninglessness of much of the "judging" and competition some modelers engage in to show off their work are both important things to ponder. So there has been some value, which is saying something when one considers the lack of depth of some other discussions on these groups.


                                        Yes there is the delete key, which would be used whether you agree with the content or not. And as far as I can tell, in this time period there has been no other great burning question or fascinating topic on this group. So lets talk about something you find interesting and see where it may take us.


                                        Onward and upward! Excelsior!


                                        John Stokes
                                        Bellevue, WA



                                        To: on3@yahoogroups.comFrom: cliffbpg@...: Sat, 2 Aug 2008 19:41:14 -0400Subject: Re: [on3] So, How extreme do we get?

                                        After 50 + posts WHO has changed their minds?? My delete finger is worn out. "Enough Already" as they say locally ----- Original Message ----- From: Boone Morrison To: on3@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2008 6:42 PMSubject: Re: [on3] So, How extreme do we get?Jim:Thanks for the kind comment.I hesitated for a while before posting that - let it sit for half a day before Isent it just to be sure I was not responding in haste.It is such a touchy subject that I fear some may take it as a personal assaultupon their pride, ego, or whatever. Some in the hobby seem to see that gainingsome sort of "status" is important - which, in my opinion it is not. Garnering a bunchof basically meaningless awards seems "important" to some, while to others enjoyingthe work of the hobby (model building) and the fellowship of like- minded folks isthe real core of the thing. At least it is to me.There is enough competition in "real life" that having it become part of one's hobbyseems to be rather a poor choice. Using "competition" as a means to drive ones workis also somewhat silly - do it for the love not the desire for adulation by others!In the end modeling is very, very personal - so much so that any attempt to define whatis "good" vs what is not seems nearly impossible - nobody will find 100% agreement in theeffort, that is for sure.

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                                        New Photos

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                                        New FilesVisit Your Group

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                                        Sponsored Search
                                        can help increase
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                                        for moderators
                                        of Yahoo! Groups.

                                        Dog Fanatics
                                        on Yahoo! Groups
                                        Find people who are
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