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Re: Olivia via repeater

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  • garylinnrobinson
    Curt, Yes, Olivia will work fine over a repeater - almost any digital can. I ve used Olivia on FM simplex and repeaters quite effectively. It can be used on
    Message 1 of 17 , Mar 17, 2010
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      Curt,
      Yes, Olivia will work fine over a repeater - almost any digital can. I've used Olivia on FM simplex and repeaters quite effectively.
      It can be used on any mode that can send audio - AM, FM, or SSB.
      You can even run it manually via any FM rig by generating the tones in your computer and manually put your FM xmtr microphone up to your computer speakers. And you could do the reverse manually too by hooking up a microphone to your computer and putting the microphone up next to your FM rigs speaker piping the output of the microphone to your digital program,
      Though it is 1000 times easier using an interface hi hi
      Lots of emcomm groups are using FM digital and other hams besides emcomm too.
      Of course, if the repeater is heavily used it might be a good idea to use less used repeaters and/or use non peak times. Maybe even check with control operators to make sure they would not object. But there are no technical reasons you can't use FM or repeaters.

      ---Gary WB8ROL

      --- In oliviadata@yahoogroups.com, Curtis Wright <cwright1776@...> wrote:
      >
      > Thank you all for your information on the different Olivia Modes. It has been very helpful.
      >  
      > I have another question.
      >  
      > Will Olivia work over an FM repeater?
      >  
      > Curt AA3JE
      >
    • Brad
      Why? It is a weak signal mode. Brad VK2QQ _____ From: oliviadata@yahoogroups.com [mailto:oliviadata@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Curtis Wright Sent: Thursday,
      Message 2 of 17 , Mar 17, 2010
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        Why? It is a weak signal mode.

         

        Brad VK2QQ

         


        From: oliviadata@yahoogroups.com [mailto:oliviadata@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Curtis Wright
        Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2010 4:03 AM
        To: oliviadata@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [olivia] Olivia via repeater

         




        Thank you all for your information on the different Olivia Modes. It has been very helpful.

         

        I have another question.

         

        Will Olivia work over an FM repeater?

         

        Curt AA3JE



      • Gary L. Robinson
        Curt, I almost forgot - FLDigi has an interesting facility that they use for sending EmComm messages. It s called WRAP. WRAP will take a message, wrap it in a
        Message 3 of 17 , Mar 17, 2010
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          Curt,
             I almost forgot - FLDigi has an interesting facility that they use for sending EmComm messages. It's called WRAP.
             WRAP will take a message, wrap it in a checksum message and send it to the other station with whatever mode you choose.  The other station receives the message and goes through a procedure to test it with the WRAP program to ensure that the message is received intact and verified.
             I think it is slightly clunky interface and procedure with how they implement it so I wrote my OWN version in my OWN program FLDigiRol.  It has ALL the code in it for WRAP messages and does NOT need an external program to do the same job.
             A text file with the message can be dropped in the Xmit text area and FLDigiRol will convert it into a WRAP message and then you can send it to other stations. When another station receives a WRAP message it will be automatically (if you have the "Auto text extracting..." setting in the Misc/Text capture settings tab checked ) checked for verification and saved to disk. I put a WRAP message browser/creator in the program so you can open it and see the message, see if it is varified, and also create new WRAP messages.
             It is compatable with the regular FLDigi program and it's WRAP facilities too.

             If you're interested it is at : http://home.roadrunner.com/~rolswana/
             It's near the bottom of the page, FLDigiRol 3.13BCr044 - the 3rd link is the Windows version.

             Don't feel obligated to use it but I thought I would suggest it.  It could very useful to have verified messages with emcomm stuff but may or may not fit your requirements.

          ---Gary WB8ROL


          On 3/17/10, Curtis Wright <cwright1776@...> wrote:
           

          Thank you all for your information on the different Olivia Modes. It has been very helpful.
           
          I have another question.
           
          Will Olivia work over an FM repeater?
           
          Curt AA3JE




          --

          Gary L. Robinson
          WB8ROL
          grobin1949@...
        • garylinnrobinson
          I don t think there is any big advantage in using Olivia via a repeater though the fast Olivia modes like 2000/4 and 2000/8 don t have much DISadvantage either
          Message 4 of 17 , Mar 17, 2010
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            I don't think there is any big advantage in using Olivia via a repeater though the fast Olivia modes like 2000/4 and 2000/8 don't have much DISadvantage either though.

            I can't remember exactly but I think the speed of 2000/8 is approx. 115wpm and I know the MARS folks use it for message handling on nets when other modes fail. And 2000/4 should be faster.

            MT63 1000 and 2000 are a good choice too.

            There is no disadvantage running wide modes on a FM repeater as compared to narrow modes.

            I would still use modes with FEC of similar error correcting though. I've seen errors on PSK, for example, even over FM with what sounded like solid signals and full quieting. Not many errors but a few here and there.

            --- In oliviadata@yahoogroups.com, "Brad" <yahoo@...> wrote:
            >
            > Why? It is a weak signal mode.
            >
            >
            >
            > Brad VK2QQ
            >
            >
            >
            > _____
            >
            > From: oliviadata@yahoogroups.com [mailto:oliviadata@yahoogroups.com] On
            > Behalf Of Curtis Wright
            > Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2010 4:03 AM
            > To: oliviadata@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [olivia] Olivia via repeater
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Thank you all for your information on the different Olivia Modes. It has
            > been very helpful.
            >
            >
            >
            > I have another question.
            >
            >
            >
            > Will Olivia work over an FM repeater?
            >
            >
            >
            > Curt AA3JE
            >
          • garylinnrobinson
            Curt, I forgot to answer your question about speed differences. YES, there are speed differences with ALL the different Olivia configurations. Standard
            Message 5 of 17 , Mar 18, 2010
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              Curt,
              I forgot to answer your question about speed differences. YES, there are speed differences with ALL the different Olivia configurations.

              Standard configurations for Olivia are the following 5 combinations of bandwidth and number of tones that Olivia uses. Olivia can use any combination of 125,250,500,1000,and 2000hz bandwidths with 2,4,8,16,32,64,128, and 256 tones.

              These 5 "standard" configurations are just configurations that are overall best compromise of speed and ability to get through (robustness) for each of the different bandwidths.

              125/4 -- approx 7wpm
              250/8 -- approx 15wpm
              500/16 -- approx 20wpm
              1000/32 -- approx 25wpm
              2000/64 -- approx 30wpm

              But that does NOT mean non standard modes are better or worse OR should NOT used. There are a total of 40 combinations you can use IF the digital program you use has NOT limited your choices.

              125/2, 125/4, 125/8, 125/16, 125/32, 125/64, 125/128, 125/256
              250/2, 250/4, 250/8, 250/16, 250/32, 250/64, 250/128, 250/256
              500/2, 500/4, 500/8, 500/16, 500/32, 500/64, 500/128, 500/256
              1000/2, 1000/4, 1000/8, 1000/16, 1000/32, 1000/64, 1000/128, 1000/256
              2000/2, 2000/4, 2000/8, 2000/16, 2000/32, 2000/64, 2000/128, 2000/256

              Theoretically the fastest Olivia configuration is the one with the widest bandwidth and the lowest tones. Though I have, in the course of testing them, seen NO speed increase between the 2 tone variations AND the 4 tone variations. But there is speed differences between the 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, and 256 tone configurations within all the different bandwidths.

              for example :
              125/2 and 125/4 are the fastest of the 125hz Olivia speeds. 125/8 is slower, 125/16 slower yet, etc., etc., until 125/256 is the slowest of all the 125hz modes.

              250/2 and 250/4 are the fastest of the 250hz Olivia speeds. 250/8 is slower, 250/16 slower yet, etc., etc., until 250/256 is the slowest of all the 250hz modes.

              And so it goes for all the 5 different bandwidth choices.

              ALSO the more WIDE the mode the FASTER it can be DEPENDING on how many tones are used. It's a little complicated but makes sense after you get used to it.

              125/4 is abt 7wpm
              and 250/8 is abt 15wpm
              BUT 250/16 is only abt 7 wpm
              AND 250/4 is abt 20wpm

              500/16 is abt 20wpm
              and 500/8 is abt 30wpm
              BUT 500/32 is only abt 15wpm
              500/64 is approx 7wpm

              for each bandwidth if you increase the TONES the speed decreases. Decrease the tones and the speed increases.

              However, for each bandwidth if you increase the TONES the ability to copy well beneath the noise floor INCREASES. Decrease the TONES and the ability to copy well beneath the noise floor Decreases.

              So... theoretically the fastest mode would be 2000/2 - though in reality I have not measured where there is any speed increase by going from 4 tone to 2 tone so I THINK the fastest Olivia is 2000/4 mode. And for VHF FM like you are thinking of using that would probably be the best mode for traffic handling with Olivia since the the ability to copy well beneath the noise floor is not a factor with FM repeaters all that much,

              Theoretically the MOST robust mode (the ability to copy well beneath the noise floor) is 125/256 but it would be extremely slow - it might make JT65A look speedy hi hi BUT it still might be useful.

              There is also the QRM, QRN, polar flutter, and other things that affect what combination of tones and bandwidths are best for any given situation.

              SO ..... THIS may be MORE info than you really need OR want hi hi

              Bottom line is that for emcomm stuff speed is important AND on 2mtr FM being robust is not quite as important as HF. The faster Olivia modes like 2000/4, 2000/8 or 1000/4 or 1000/8 depending on which your software supports is desirable.

              FLDigi currently supports ALL 40 configurations. DM780 v. 5 and MultiPSK have limited their choices and frankly that bothers me BUT that's the choice THEY have made for their users.

              ---Gary WB8ROL
            • Curtis Wright
              Wonderful   (You have told me EXACTLY what I wanted to know.)   It is a mistake to think that a repeater is not a weak signal situation. The club of which
              Message 6 of 17 , Mar 18, 2010
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                Wonderful
                 
                (You have told me EXACTLY what I wanted to know.)
                 
                It is a mistake to think that a repeater is not a "weak signal" situation. The club of which I am president has a 2 meter repeater that is nearly ideally suited on a tall tower in a high place, but we still have spots no more than 2 miles from the repeater that are very tough to hit. Lots of granite and geology here. Once you can hit the repeater, no problem, except when the hospital committee wants to move the EOC into the bowels of a steel building.
                 
                Thank you for the information, it is really helpful.
                 
                Curt

                --- On Thu, 3/18/10, garylinnrobinson <grobin1949@...> wrote:

                From: garylinnrobinson <grobin1949@...>
                Subject: [olivia] Re: Olivia via repeater
                To: oliviadata@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Thursday, March 18, 2010, 3:36 PM

                 
                Curt,
                I forgot to answer your question about speed differences. YES, there are speed differences with ALL the different Olivia configurations.

                Standard configurations for Olivia are the following 5 combinations of bandwidth and number of tones that Olivia uses. Olivia can use any combination of 125,250,500, 1000,and 2000hz bandwidths with 2,4,8,16,32, 64,128, and 256 tones.

                These 5 "standard" configurations are just configurations that are overall best compromise of speed and ability to get through (robustness) for each of the different bandwidths.

                125/4 -- approx 7wpm
                250/8 -- approx 15wpm
                500/16 -- approx 20wpm
                1000/32 -- approx 25wpm
                2000/64 -- approx 30wpm

                But that does NOT mean non standard modes are better or worse OR should NOT used. There are a total of 40 combinations you can use IF the digital program you use has NOT limited your choices.

                125/2, 125/4, 125/8, 125/16, 125/32, 125/64, 125/128, 125/256
                250/2, 250/4, 250/8, 250/16, 250/32, 250/64, 250/128, 250/256
                500/2, 500/4, 500/8, 500/16, 500/32, 500/64, 500/128, 500/256
                1000/2, 1000/4, 1000/8, 1000/16, 1000/32, 1000/64, 1000/128, 1000/256
                2000/2, 2000/4, 2000/8, 2000/16, 2000/32, 2000/64, 2000/128, 2000/256

                Theoretically the fastest Olivia configuration is the one with the widest bandwidth and the lowest tones. Though I have, in the course of testing them, seen NO speed increase between the 2 tone variations AND the 4 tone variations. But there is speed differences between the 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, and 256 tone configurations within all the different bandwidths.

                for example :
                125/2 and 125/4 are the fastest of the 125hz Olivia speeds. 125/8 is slower, 125/16 slower yet, etc., etc., until 125/256 is the slowest of all the 125hz modes.

                250/2 and 250/4 are the fastest of the 250hz Olivia speeds. 250/8 is slower, 250/16 slower yet, etc., etc., until 250/256 is the slowest of all the 250hz modes.

                And so it goes for all the 5 different bandwidth choices.

                ALSO the more WIDE the mode the FASTER it can be DEPENDING on how many tones are used. It's a little complicated but makes sense after you get used to it.

                125/4 is abt 7wpm
                and 250/8 is abt 15wpm
                BUT 250/16 is only abt 7 wpm
                AND 250/4 is abt 20wpm

                500/16 is abt 20wpm
                and 500/8 is abt 30wpm
                BUT 500/32 is only abt 15wpm
                500/64 is approx 7wpm

                for each bandwidth if you increase the TONES the speed decreases. Decrease the tones and the speed increases.

                However, for each bandwidth if you increase the TONES the ability to copy well beneath the noise floor INCREASES. Decrease the TONES and the ability to copy well beneath the noise floor Decreases.

                So... theoretically the fastest mode would be 2000/2 - though in reality I have not measured where there is any speed increase by going from 4 tone to 2 tone so I THINK the fastest Olivia is 2000/4 mode. And for VHF FM like you are thinking of using that would probably be the best mode for traffic handling with Olivia since the the ability to copy well beneath the noise floor is not a factor with FM repeaters all that much,

                Theoretically the MOST robust mode (the ability to copy well beneath the noise floor) is 125/256 but it would be extremely slow - it might make JT65A look speedy hi hi BUT it still might be useful.

                There is also the QRM, QRN, polar flutter, and other things that affect what combination of tones and bandwidths are best for any given situation.

                SO ..... THIS may be MORE info than you really need OR want hi hi

                Bottom line is that for emcomm stuff speed is important AND on 2mtr FM being robust is not quite as important as HF. The faster Olivia modes like 2000/4, 2000/8 or 1000/4 or 1000/8 depending on which your software supports is desirable.

                FLDigi currently supports ALL 40 configurations. DM780 v. 5 and MultiPSK have limited their choices and frankly that bothers me BUT that's the choice THEY have made for their users.

                ---Gary WB8ROL


              • fred_darrah
                Gary, Some of the 2000 Olivia modes are not legal in the US. You can look it up but I think the tones 2,4,8 are not legal plus use excessive band widths. I
                Message 7 of 17 , Mar 26, 2010
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                  Gary,
                  Some of the 2000 Olivia modes are not legal in the US. You can look it up but I think the tones 2,4,8 are not legal plus use excessive band widths. I observed a 40 meter Olivia QSO today 7076 on top of JT modes at 1000 width. A little inconsiderate and excessive on a crowded band.Not all operators use common sense.
                  73 Fred N9GUE

                  --- In oliviadata@yahoogroups.com, Curtis Wright <cwright1776@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Wonderful
                  >  
                  > (You have told me EXACTLY what I wanted to know.)
                  >  
                  > It is a mistake to think that a repeater is not a "weak signal" situation. The club of which I am president has a 2 meter repeater that is nearly ideally suited on a tall tower in a high place, but we still have spots no more than 2 miles from the repeater that are very tough to hit. Lots of granite and geology here. Once you can hit the repeater, no problem, except when the hospital committee wants to move the EOC into the bowels of a steel building.
                  >  
                  > Thank you for the information, it is really helpful.
                  >  
                  > Curt
                  >
                  > --- On Thu, 3/18/10, garylinnrobinson <grobin1949@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > From: garylinnrobinson <grobin1949@...>
                  > Subject: [olivia] Re: Olivia via repeater
                  > To: oliviadata@yahoogroups.com
                  > Date: Thursday, March 18, 2010, 3:36 PM
                  >
                  >
                  >  
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Curt,
                  > I forgot to answer your question about speed differences. YES, there are speed differences with ALL the different Olivia configurations.
                  >
                  > Standard configurations for Olivia are the following 5 combinations of bandwidth and number of tones that Olivia uses. Olivia can use any combination of 125,250,500, 1000,and 2000hz bandwidths with 2,4,8,16,32, 64,128, and 256 tones.
                  >
                  > These 5 "standard" configurations are just configurations that are overall best compromise of speed and ability to get through (robustness) for each of the different bandwidths.
                  >
                  > 125/4 -- approx 7wpm
                  > 250/8 -- approx 15wpm
                  > 500/16 -- approx 20wpm
                  > 1000/32 -- approx 25wpm
                  > 2000/64 -- approx 30wpm
                  >
                  > But that does NOT mean non standard modes are better or worse OR should NOT used. There are a total of 40 combinations you can use IF the digital program you use has NOT limited your choices.
                  >
                  > 125/2, 125/4, 125/8, 125/16, 125/32, 125/64, 125/128, 125/256
                  > 250/2, 250/4, 250/8, 250/16, 250/32, 250/64, 250/128, 250/256
                  > 500/2, 500/4, 500/8, 500/16, 500/32, 500/64, 500/128, 500/256
                  > 1000/2, 1000/4, 1000/8, 1000/16, 1000/32, 1000/64, 1000/128, 1000/256
                  > 2000/2, 2000/4, 2000/8, 2000/16, 2000/32, 2000/64, 2000/128, 2000/256
                  >
                  > Theoretically the fastest Olivia configuration is the one with the widest bandwidth and the lowest tones. Though I have, in the course of testing them, seen NO speed increase between the 2 tone variations AND the 4 tone variations. But there is speed differences between the 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, and 256 tone configurations within all the different bandwidths.
                  >
                  > for example :
                  > 125/2 and 125/4 are the fastest of the 125hz Olivia speeds. 125/8 is slower, 125/16 slower yet, etc., etc., until 125/256 is the slowest of all the 125hz modes.
                  >
                  > 250/2 and 250/4 are the fastest of the 250hz Olivia speeds. 250/8 is slower, 250/16 slower yet, etc., etc., until 250/256 is the slowest of all the 250hz modes.
                  >
                  > And so it goes for all the 5 different bandwidth choices.
                  >
                  > ALSO the more WIDE the mode the FASTER it can be DEPENDING on how many tones are used. It's a little complicated but makes sense after you get used to it.
                  >
                  > 125/4 is abt 7wpm
                  > and 250/8 is abt 15wpm
                  > BUT 250/16 is only abt 7 wpm
                  > AND 250/4 is abt 20wpm
                  >
                  > 500/16 is abt 20wpm
                  > and 500/8 is abt 30wpm
                  > BUT 500/32 is only abt 15wpm
                  > 500/64 is approx 7wpm
                  >
                  > for each bandwidth if you increase the TONES the speed decreases. Decrease the tones and the speed increases.
                  >
                  > However, for each bandwidth if you increase the TONES the ability to copy well beneath the noise floor INCREASES. Decrease the TONES and the ability to copy well beneath the noise floor Decreases.
                  >
                  > So... theoretically the fastest mode would be 2000/2 - though in reality I have not measured where there is any speed increase by going from 4 tone to 2 tone so I THINK the fastest Olivia is 2000/4 mode. And for VHF FM like you are thinking of using that would probably be the best mode for traffic handling with Olivia since the the ability to copy well beneath the noise floor is not a factor with FM repeaters all that much,
                  >
                  > Theoretically the MOST robust mode (the ability to copy well beneath the noise floor) is 125/256 but it would be extremely slow - it might make JT65A look speedy hi hi BUT it still might be useful.
                  >
                  > There is also the QRM, QRN, polar flutter, and other things that affect what combination of tones and bandwidths are best for any given situation.
                  >
                  > SO ..... THIS may be MORE info than you really need OR want hi hi
                  >
                  > Bottom line is that for emcomm stuff speed is important AND on 2mtr FM being robust is not quite as important as HF. The faster Olivia modes like 2000/4, 2000/8 or 1000/4 or 1000/8 depending on which your software supports is desirable.
                  >
                  > FLDigi currently supports ALL 40 configurations. DM780 v. 5 and MultiPSK have limited their choices and frankly that bothers me BUT that's the choice THEY have made for their users.
                  >
                  > ---Gary WB8ROL
                  >
                • garylinnrobinson
                  ALL 40 of the different olivia configurations ARE LEGAL in the U.S.A. Saying there are illegal olivia modes in the U.S.A. is a FALSEHOOD. BTW, beside the FACT
                  Message 8 of 17 , Mar 26, 2010
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                    ALL 40 of the different olivia configurations ARE LEGAL in the U.S.A.
                    Saying there are illegal olivia modes in the U.S.A. is a FALSEHOOD.

                    BTW, beside the FACT that ALL OLIVIA MODES ARE LEGAL in the U.S.A. I have been QRM'd by tons of people on many many modes while I've been on many many modes. QRMing other hams intentionally IS illegal regardless of mode, bandwidth, power, or any other reason I can think of.
                    And NO ONE DIGITAL MODE owns any band segment or sub segment. It's first come first serve - though many of of us do honor some voluntary segments.


                    but saying some Olivia modes are illegal in the U.S.A. is NOT TRUE.

                    ---Gary WB8ROL

                    --- In oliviadata@yahoogroups.com, "fred_darrah" <cfdarrah@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Gary,
                    > Some of the 2000 Olivia modes are not legal in the US. You can look it up but I think the tones 2,4,8 are not legal plus use excessive band widths. I observed a 40 meter Olivia QSO today 7076 on top of JT modes at 1000 width. A little inconsiderate and excessive on a crowded band.Not all operators use common sense.
                    > 73 Fred N9GUE
                    >
                    > --- In oliviadata@yahoogroups.com, Curtis Wright <cwright1776@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Wonderful
                    > >  
                    > > (You have told me EXACTLY what I wanted to know.)
                    > >  
                    > > It is a mistake to think that a repeater is not a "weak signal" situation. The club of which I am president has a 2 meter repeater that is nearly ideally suited on a tall tower in a high place, but we still have spots no more than 2 miles from the repeater that are very tough to hit. Lots of granite and geology here. Once you can hit the repeater, no problem, except when the hospital committee wants to move the EOC into the bowels of a steel building.
                    > >  
                    > > Thank you for the information, it is really helpful.
                    > >  
                    > > Curt
                    > >
                    > > --- On Thu, 3/18/10, garylinnrobinson <grobin1949@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > From: garylinnrobinson <grobin1949@>
                    > > Subject: [olivia] Re: Olivia via repeater
                    > > To: oliviadata@yahoogroups.com
                    > > Date: Thursday, March 18, 2010, 3:36 PM
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >  
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Curt,
                    > > I forgot to answer your question about speed differences. YES, there are speed differences with ALL the different Olivia configurations.
                    > >
                    > > Standard configurations for Olivia are the following 5 combinations of bandwidth and number of tones that Olivia uses. Olivia can use any combination of 125,250,500, 1000,and 2000hz bandwidths with 2,4,8,16,32, 64,128, and 256 tones.
                    > >
                    > > These 5 "standard" configurations are just configurations that are overall best compromise of speed and ability to get through (robustness) for each of the different bandwidths.
                    > >
                    > > 125/4 -- approx 7wpm
                    > > 250/8 -- approx 15wpm
                    > > 500/16 -- approx 20wpm
                    > > 1000/32 -- approx 25wpm
                    > > 2000/64 -- approx 30wpm
                    > >
                    > > But that does NOT mean non standard modes are better or worse OR should NOT used. There are a total of 40 combinations you can use IF the digital program you use has NOT limited your choices.
                    > >
                    > > 125/2, 125/4, 125/8, 125/16, 125/32, 125/64, 125/128, 125/256
                    > > 250/2, 250/4, 250/8, 250/16, 250/32, 250/64, 250/128, 250/256
                    > > 500/2, 500/4, 500/8, 500/16, 500/32, 500/64, 500/128, 500/256
                    > > 1000/2, 1000/4, 1000/8, 1000/16, 1000/32, 1000/64, 1000/128, 1000/256
                    > > 2000/2, 2000/4, 2000/8, 2000/16, 2000/32, 2000/64, 2000/128, 2000/256
                    > >
                    > > Theoretically the fastest Olivia configuration is the one with the widest bandwidth and the lowest tones. Though I have, in the course of testing them, seen NO speed increase between the 2 tone variations AND the 4 tone variations. But there is speed differences between the 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, and 256 tone configurations within all the different bandwidths.
                    > >
                    > > for example :
                    > > 125/2 and 125/4 are the fastest of the 125hz Olivia speeds. 125/8 is slower, 125/16 slower yet, etc., etc., until 125/256 is the slowest of all the 125hz modes.
                    > >
                    > > 250/2 and 250/4 are the fastest of the 250hz Olivia speeds. 250/8 is slower, 250/16 slower yet, etc., etc., until 250/256 is the slowest of all the 250hz modes.
                    > >
                    > > And so it goes for all the 5 different bandwidth choices.
                    > >
                    > > ALSO the more WIDE the mode the FASTER it can be DEPENDING on how many tones are used. It's a little complicated but makes sense after you get used to it.
                    > >
                    > > 125/4 is abt 7wpm
                    > > and 250/8 is abt 15wpm
                    > > BUT 250/16 is only abt 7 wpm
                    > > AND 250/4 is abt 20wpm
                    > >
                    > > 500/16 is abt 20wpm
                    > > and 500/8 is abt 30wpm
                    > > BUT 500/32 is only abt 15wpm
                    > > 500/64 is approx 7wpm
                    > >
                    > > for each bandwidth if you increase the TONES the speed decreases. Decrease the tones and the speed increases.
                    > >
                    > > However, for each bandwidth if you increase the TONES the ability to copy well beneath the noise floor INCREASES. Decrease the TONES and the ability to copy well beneath the noise floor Decreases.
                    > >
                    > > So... theoretically the fastest mode would be 2000/2 - though in reality I have not measured where there is any speed increase by going from 4 tone to 2 tone so I THINK the fastest Olivia is 2000/4 mode. And for VHF FM like you are thinking of using that would probably be the best mode for traffic handling with Olivia since the the ability to copy well beneath the noise floor is not a factor with FM repeaters all that much,
                    > >
                    > > Theoretically the MOST robust mode (the ability to copy well beneath the noise floor) is 125/256 but it would be extremely slow - it might make JT65A look speedy hi hi BUT it still might be useful.
                    > >
                    > > There is also the QRM, QRN, polar flutter, and other things that affect what combination of tones and bandwidths are best for any given situation.
                    > >
                    > > SO ..... THIS may be MORE info than you really need OR want hi hi
                    > >
                    > > Bottom line is that for emcomm stuff speed is important AND on 2mtr FM being robust is not quite as important as HF. The faster Olivia modes like 2000/4, 2000/8 or 1000/4 or 1000/8 depending on which your software supports is desirable.
                    > >
                    > > FLDigi currently supports ALL 40 configurations. DM780 v. 5 and MultiPSK have limited their choices and frankly that bothers me BUT that's the choice THEY have made for their users.
                    > >
                    > > ---Gary WB8ROL
                    > >
                    >
                  • fred_darrah
                    Gary, I may be wrong but any digital mode that exceeds 300 baud on HF is not legal by FCC standards/ Possibly that has changed but I do not see it in the FCC
                    Message 9 of 17 , Mar 26, 2010
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Gary,
                      I may be wrong but any digital mode that exceeds 300 baud on HF is not legal by FCC standards/ Possibly that has changed but I do not see it in the FCC rules and orders.Please enlighten me.
                      73 Fred N9GUE

                      --- In oliviadata@yahoogroups.com, "garylinnrobinson" <grobin1949@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > ALL 40 of the different olivia configurations ARE LEGAL in the U.S.A.
                      > Saying there are illegal olivia modes in the U.S.A. is a FALSEHOOD.
                      >
                      > BTW, beside the FACT that ALL OLIVIA MODES ARE LEGAL in the U.S.A. I have been QRM'd by tons of people on many many modes while I've been on many many modes. QRMing other hams intentionally IS illegal regardless of mode, bandwidth, power, or any other reason I can think of.
                      > And NO ONE DIGITAL MODE owns any band segment or sub segment. It's first come first serve - though many of of us do honor some voluntary segments.
                      >
                      >
                      > but saying some Olivia modes are illegal in the U.S.A. is NOT TRUE.
                      >
                      > ---Gary WB8ROL
                      >
                      > --- In oliviadata@yahoogroups.com, "fred_darrah" <cfdarrah@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Gary,
                      > > Some of the 2000 Olivia modes are not legal in the US. You can look it up but I think the tones 2,4,8 are not legal plus use excessive band widths. I observed a 40 meter Olivia QSO today 7076 on top of JT modes at 1000 width. A little inconsiderate and excessive on a crowded band.Not all operators use common sense.
                      > > 73 Fred N9GUE
                      > >
                      > > --- In oliviadata@yahoogroups.com, Curtis Wright <cwright1776@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Wonderful
                      > > >  
                      > > > (You have told me EXACTLY what I wanted to know.)
                      > > >  
                      > > > It is a mistake to think that a repeater is not a "weak signal" situation. The club of which I am president has a 2 meter repeater that is nearly ideally suited on a tall tower in a high place, but we still have spots no more than 2 miles from the repeater that are very tough to hit. Lots of granite and geology here. Once you can hit the repeater, no problem, except when the hospital committee wants to move the EOC into the bowels of a steel building.
                      > > >  
                      > > > Thank you for the information, it is really helpful.
                      > > >  
                      > > > Curt
                      > > >
                      > > > --- On Thu, 3/18/10, garylinnrobinson <grobin1949@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > From: garylinnrobinson <grobin1949@>
                      > > > Subject: [olivia] Re: Olivia via repeater
                      > > > To: oliviadata@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > Date: Thursday, March 18, 2010, 3:36 PM
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >  
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Curt,
                      > > > I forgot to answer your question about speed differences. YES, there are speed differences with ALL the different Olivia configurations.
                      > > >
                      > > > Standard configurations for Olivia are the following 5 combinations of bandwidth and number of tones that Olivia uses. Olivia can use any combination of 125,250,500, 1000,and 2000hz bandwidths with 2,4,8,16,32, 64,128, and 256 tones.
                      > > >
                      > > > These 5 "standard" configurations are just configurations that are overall best compromise of speed and ability to get through (robustness) for each of the different bandwidths.
                      > > >
                      > > > 125/4 -- approx 7wpm
                      > > > 250/8 -- approx 15wpm
                      > > > 500/16 -- approx 20wpm
                      > > > 1000/32 -- approx 25wpm
                      > > > 2000/64 -- approx 30wpm
                      > > >
                      > > > But that does NOT mean non standard modes are better or worse OR should NOT used. There are a total of 40 combinations you can use IF the digital program you use has NOT limited your choices.
                      > > >
                      > > > 125/2, 125/4, 125/8, 125/16, 125/32, 125/64, 125/128, 125/256
                      > > > 250/2, 250/4, 250/8, 250/16, 250/32, 250/64, 250/128, 250/256
                      > > > 500/2, 500/4, 500/8, 500/16, 500/32, 500/64, 500/128, 500/256
                      > > > 1000/2, 1000/4, 1000/8, 1000/16, 1000/32, 1000/64, 1000/128, 1000/256
                      > > > 2000/2, 2000/4, 2000/8, 2000/16, 2000/32, 2000/64, 2000/128, 2000/256
                      > > >
                      > > > Theoretically the fastest Olivia configuration is the one with the widest bandwidth and the lowest tones. Though I have, in the course of testing them, seen NO speed increase between the 2 tone variations AND the 4 tone variations. But there is speed differences between the 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, and 256 tone configurations within all the different bandwidths.
                      > > >
                      > > > for example :
                      > > > 125/2 and 125/4 are the fastest of the 125hz Olivia speeds. 125/8 is slower, 125/16 slower yet, etc., etc., until 125/256 is the slowest of all the 125hz modes.
                      > > >
                      > > > 250/2 and 250/4 are the fastest of the 250hz Olivia speeds. 250/8 is slower, 250/16 slower yet, etc., etc., until 250/256 is the slowest of all the 250hz modes.
                      > > >
                      > > > And so it goes for all the 5 different bandwidth choices.
                      > > >
                      > > > ALSO the more WIDE the mode the FASTER it can be DEPENDING on how many tones are used. It's a little complicated but makes sense after you get used to it.
                      > > >
                      > > > 125/4 is abt 7wpm
                      > > > and 250/8 is abt 15wpm
                      > > > BUT 250/16 is only abt 7 wpm
                      > > > AND 250/4 is abt 20wpm
                      > > >
                      > > > 500/16 is abt 20wpm
                      > > > and 500/8 is abt 30wpm
                      > > > BUT 500/32 is only abt 15wpm
                      > > > 500/64 is approx 7wpm
                      > > >
                      > > > for each bandwidth if you increase the TONES the speed decreases. Decrease the tones and the speed increases.
                      > > >
                      > > > However, for each bandwidth if you increase the TONES the ability to copy well beneath the noise floor INCREASES. Decrease the TONES and the ability to copy well beneath the noise floor Decreases.
                      > > >
                      > > > So... theoretically the fastest mode would be 2000/2 - though in reality I have not measured where there is any speed increase by going from 4 tone to 2 tone so I THINK the fastest Olivia is 2000/4 mode. And for VHF FM like you are thinking of using that would probably be the best mode for traffic handling with Olivia since the the ability to copy well beneath the noise floor is not a factor with FM repeaters all that much,
                      > > >
                      > > > Theoretically the MOST robust mode (the ability to copy well beneath the noise floor) is 125/256 but it would be extremely slow - it might make JT65A look speedy hi hi BUT it still might be useful.
                      > > >
                      > > > There is also the QRM, QRN, polar flutter, and other things that affect what combination of tones and bandwidths are best for any given situation.
                      > > >
                      > > > SO ..... THIS may be MORE info than you really need OR want hi hi
                      > > >
                      > > > Bottom line is that for emcomm stuff speed is important AND on 2mtr FM being robust is not quite as important as HF. The faster Olivia modes like 2000/4, 2000/8 or 1000/4 or 1000/8 depending on which your software supports is desirable.
                      > > >
                      > > > FLDigi currently supports ALL 40 configurations. DM780 v. 5 and MultiPSK have limited their choices and frankly that bothers me BUT that's the choice THEY have made for their users.
                      > > >
                      > > > ---Gary WB8ROL
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • Gary L. Robinson
                      Check out the Olivia specs at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olivia_MFSK EVEN IF the HF 300 baud limit pertains to digital modes INSIDE the data segments, and
                      Message 10 of 17 , Mar 26, 2010
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Check out the Olivia specs at
                        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olivia_MFSK

                        EVEN IF the HF 300 baud limit pertains to digital modes INSIDE the data segments, and I'm not sure it does or not - the ONLY 3 of the 40 possible combinations that would be in question would be 1000/2, 2000/2, and 2000/4.

                        The other 37, WHICH INCLUDES : 2000/256, 2000/125, 2000/64, 2000/32, 2000/16, and 2000/8, 1000/256, 1000/128, 1000/64, 1000/32, 1000/16, 1000/8, and 1000/4 all definitely have a lower baud rate.

                        And I don't know ANYONE who has ever used 2 tone Olivia modes since there does NOT seem to be any speed increase OR other advantage that is obvious between the 2 and 4 tones versions.

                        I have ALSO never heard anyone use Olivia 2000/4 on HF either.

                        BUT I am still not convinced ANY of the OLIVIA configurations are illegal on HF but would like to hear what others might think.

                        ---Gary WB8ROL


                        On 3/26/10, fred_darrah <cfdarrah@...> wrote:
                         

                        Gary,
                        I may be wrong but any digital mode that exceeds 300 baud on HF is not legal by FCC standards/ Possibly that has changed but I do not see it in the FCC rules and orders.Please enlighten me.
                        73 Fred N9GUE



                        --- In oliviadata@yahoogroups.com, "garylinnrobinson" <grobin1949@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > ALL 40 of the different olivia configurations ARE LEGAL in the U.S.A.
                        > Saying there are illegal olivia modes in the U.S.A. is a FALSEHOOD.
                        >
                        > BTW, beside the FACT that ALL OLIVIA MODES ARE LEGAL in the U.S.A. I have been QRM'd by tons of people on many many modes while I've been on many many modes. QRMing other hams intentionally IS illegal regardless of mode, bandwidth, power, or any other reason I can think of.
                        > And NO ONE DIGITAL MODE owns any band segment or sub segment. It's first come first serve - though many of of us do honor some voluntary segments.
                        >
                        >
                        > but saying some Olivia modes are illegal in the U.S.A. is NOT TRUE.
                        >
                        > ---Gary WB8ROL
                        >
                        > --- In oliviadata@yahoogroups.com, "fred_darrah" <cfdarrah@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Gary,
                        > > Some of the 2000 Olivia modes are not legal in the US. You can look it up but I think the tones 2,4,8 are not legal plus use excessive band widths. I observed a 40 meter Olivia QSO today 7076 on top of JT modes at 1000 width. A little inconsiderate and excessive on a crowded band.Not all operators use common sense.
                        > > 73 Fred N9GUE
                        > >
                        > > --- In oliviadata@yahoogroups.com, Curtis Wright <cwright1776@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Wonderful
                        > > >  
                        > > > (You have told me EXACTLY what I wanted to know.)
                        > > >  
                        > > > It is a mistake to think that a repeater is not a "weak signal" situation. The club of which I am president has a 2 meter repeater that is nearly ideally suited on a tall tower in a high place, but we still have spots no more than 2 miles from the repeater that are very tough to hit. Lots of granite and geology here. Once you can hit the repeater, no problem, except when the hospital committee wants to move the EOC into the bowels of a steel building.
                        > > >  
                        > > > Thank you for the information, it is really helpful.
                        > > >  
                        > > > Curt
                        > > >
                        > > > --- On Thu, 3/18/10, garylinnrobinson <grobin1949@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > From: garylinnrobinson <grobin1949@>
                        > > > Subject: [olivia] Re: Olivia via repeater
                        > > > To: oliviadata@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > Date: Thursday, March 18, 2010, 3:36 PM
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >  
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Curt,
                        > > > I forgot to answer your question about speed differences. YES, there are speed differences with ALL the different Olivia configurations.
                        > > >
                        > > > Standard configurations for Olivia are the following 5 combinations of bandwidth and number of tones that Olivia uses. Olivia can use any combination of 125,250,500, 1000,and 2000hz bandwidths with 2,4,8,16,32, 64,128, and 256 tones.
                        > > >
                        > > > These 5 "standard" configurations are just configurations that are overall best compromise of speed and ability to get through (robustness) for each of the different bandwidths.
                        > > >
                        > > > 125/4 -- approx 7wpm
                        > > > 250/8 -- approx 15wpm
                        > > > 500/16 -- approx 20wpm
                        > > > 1000/32 -- approx 25wpm
                        > > > 2000/64 -- approx 30wpm
                        > > >
                        > > > But that does NOT mean non standard modes are better or worse OR should NOT used. There are a total of 40 combinations you can use IF the digital program you use has NOT limited your choices.
                        > > >
                        > > > 125/2, 125/4, 125/8, 125/16, 125/32, 125/64, 125/128, 125/256
                        > > > 250/2, 250/4, 250/8, 250/16, 250/32, 250/64, 250/128, 250/256
                        > > > 500/2, 500/4, 500/8, 500/16, 500/32, 500/64, 500/128, 500/256
                        > > > 1000/2, 1000/4, 1000/8, 1000/16, 1000/32, 1000/64, 1000/128, 1000/256
                        > > > 2000/2, 2000/4, 2000/8, 2000/16, 2000/32, 2000/64, 2000/128, 2000/256
                        > > >
                        > > > Theoretically the fastest Olivia configuration is the one with the widest bandwidth and the lowest tones. Though I have, in the course of testing them, seen NO speed increase between the 2 tone variations AND the 4 tone variations. But there is speed differences between the 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, and 256 tone configurations within all the different bandwidths.
                        > > >
                        > > > for example :
                        > > > 125/2 and 125/4 are the fastest of the 125hz Olivia speeds. 125/8 is slower, 125/16 slower yet, etc., etc., until 125/256 is the slowest of all the 125hz modes.
                        > > >
                        > > > 250/2 and 250/4 are the fastest of the 250hz Olivia speeds. 250/8 is slower, 250/16 slower yet, etc., etc., until 250/256 is the slowest of all the 250hz modes.
                        > > >
                        > > > And so it goes for all the 5 different bandwidth choices.
                        > > >
                        > > > ALSO the more WIDE the mode the FASTER it can be DEPENDING on how many tones are used. It's a little complicated but makes sense after you get used to it.
                        > > >
                        > > > 125/4 is abt 7wpm
                        > > > and 250/8 is abt 15wpm
                        > > > BUT 250/16 is only abt 7 wpm
                        > > > AND 250/4 is abt 20wpm
                        > > >
                        > > > 500/16 is abt 20wpm
                        > > > and 500/8 is abt 30wpm
                        > > > BUT 500/32 is only abt 15wpm
                        > > > 500/64 is approx 7wpm
                        > > >
                        > > > for each bandwidth if you increase the TONES the speed decreases. Decrease the tones and the speed increases.
                        > > >
                        > > > However, for each bandwidth if you increase the TONES the ability to copy well beneath the noise floor INCREASES. Decrease the TONES and the ability to copy well beneath the noise floor Decreases.
                        > > >
                        > > > So... theoretically the fastest mode would be 2000/2 - though in reality I have not measured where there is any speed increase by going from 4 tone to 2 tone so I THINK the fastest Olivia is 2000/4 mode. And for VHF FM like you are thinking of using that would probably be the best mode for traffic handling with Olivia since the the ability to copy well beneath the noise floor is not a factor with FM repeaters all that much,
                        > > >
                        > > > Theoretically the MOST robust mode (the ability to copy well beneath the noise floor) is 125/256 but it would be extremely slow - it might make JT65A look speedy hi hi BUT it still might be useful.
                        > > >
                        > > > There is also the QRM, QRN, polar flutter, and other things that affect what combination of tones and bandwidths are best for any given situation.
                        > > >
                        > > > SO ..... THIS may be MORE info than you really need OR want hi hi
                        > > >
                        > > > Bottom line is that for emcomm stuff speed is important AND on 2mtr FM being robust is not quite as important as HF. The faster Olivia modes like 2000/4, 2000/8 or 1000/4 or 1000/8 depending on which your software supports is desirable.
                        > > >
                        > > > FLDigi currently supports ALL 40 configurations. DM780 v. 5 and MultiPSK have limited their choices and frankly that bothers me BUT that's the choice THEY have made for their users.
                        > > >
                        > > > ---Gary WB8ROL
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >




                        --

                        Gary L. Robinson
                        WB8ROL
                        grobin1949@...
                      • phil williams
                        One in talking in baud and the other is talk in terms of bandwidth and tones. I am trying to figure which one of you is more crazy. philw de ka1gmn
                        Message 11 of 17 , Mar 27, 2010
                        • 0 Attachment
                          One in talking in baud and the other is talk in terms of bandwidth and
                          tones.

                          I am trying to figure which one of you is more crazy.

                          philw de ka1gmn


                          On Fri, 2010-03-26 at 23:46 -0400, Gary L. Robinson wrote:
                          >
                          > Check out the Olivia specs at
                          > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olivia_MFSK
                          >
                          > EVEN IF the HF 300 baud limit pertains to digital modes INSIDE the
                          > data segments, and I'm not sure it does or not - the ONLY 3 of the 40
                          > possible combinations that would be in question would be 1000/2,
                          > 2000/2, and 2000/4.
                          >
                          > The other 37, WHICH INCLUDES : 2000/256, 2000/125, 2000/64, 2000/32,
                          > 2000/16, and 2000/8, 1000/256, 1000/128, 1000/64, 1000/32, 1000/16,
                          > 1000/8, and 1000/4 all definitely have a lower baud rate.
                          >
                          > And I don't know ANYONE who has ever used 2 tone Olivia modes since
                          > there does NOT seem to be any speed increase OR other advantage that
                          > is obvious between the 2 and 4 tones versions.
                          >
                          > I have ALSO never heard anyone use Olivia 2000/4 on HF either.
                          >
                          > BUT I am still not convinced ANY of the OLIVIA configurations are
                          > illegal on HF but would like to hear what others might think.
                          >
                          > ---Gary WB8ROL
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > On 3/26/10, fred_darrah <cfdarrah@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Gary,
                          > I may be wrong but any digital mode that exceeds 300 baud on
                          > HF is not legal by FCC standards/ Possibly that has changed
                          > but I do not see it in the FCC rules and orders.Please
                          > enlighten me.
                          > 73 Fred N9GUE
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In oliviadata@yahoogroups.com, "garylinnrobinson"
                          > <grobin1949@...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > ALL 40 of the different olivia configurations ARE LEGAL in
                          > the U.S.A.
                          > > Saying there are illegal olivia modes in the U.S.A. is a
                          > FALSEHOOD.
                          > >
                          > > BTW, beside the FACT that ALL OLIVIA MODES ARE LEGAL in the
                          > U.S.A. I have been QRM'd by tons of people on many many modes
                          > while I've been on many many modes. QRMing other hams
                          > intentionally IS illegal regardless of mode, bandwidth, power,
                          > or any other reason I can think of.
                          > > And NO ONE DIGITAL MODE owns any band segment or sub
                          > segment. It's first come first serve - though many of of us do
                          > honor some voluntary segments.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > but saying some Olivia modes are illegal in the U.S.A. is
                          > NOT TRUE.
                          > >
                          > > ---Gary WB8ROL
                          > >
                          > > --- In oliviadata@yahoogroups.com, "fred_darrah" <cfdarrah@>
                          > wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Gary,
                          > > > Some of the 2000 Olivia modes are not legal in the US. You
                          > can look it up but I think the tones 2,4,8 are not legal plus
                          > use excessive band widths. I observed a 40 meter Olivia QSO
                          > today 7076 on top of JT modes at 1000 width. A little
                          > inconsiderate and excessive on a crowded band.Not all
                          > operators use common sense.
                          > > > 73 Fred N9GUE
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In oliviadata@yahoogroups.com, Curtis Wright
                          > <cwright1776@> wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Wonderful
                          > > > > Â
                          > > > > (You have told me EXACTLY what I wanted to know.)
                          > > > > Â
                          > > > > It is a mistake to think that a repeater is not a "weak
                          > signal" situation. The club of which I am president has a 2
                          > meter repeater that is nearly ideally suited on a tall tower
                          > in a high place, but we still have spots no more than 2 miles
                          > from the repeater that are very tough to hit. Lots of granite
                          > and geology here. Once you can hit the repeater, no problem,
                          > except when the hospital committee wants to move the EOC into
                          > the bowels of a steel building.
                          > > > > Â
                          > > > > Thank you for the information, it is really helpful.
                          > > > > Â
                          > > > > Curt
                          > > > >
                          > > > > --- On Thu, 3/18/10, garylinnrobinson <grobin1949@>
                          > wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > From: garylinnrobinson <grobin1949@>
                          > > > > Subject: [olivia] Re: Olivia via repeater
                          > > > > To: oliviadata@yahoogroups.com
                          > > > > Date: Thursday, March 18, 2010, 3:36 PM
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Â
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Curt,
                          > > > > I forgot to answer your question about speed
                          > differences. YES, there are speed differences with ALL the
                          > different Olivia configurations.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Standard configurations for Olivia are the following 5
                          > combinations of bandwidth and number of tones that Olivia
                          > uses. Olivia can use any combination of 125,250,500, 1000,and
                          > 2000hz bandwidths with 2,4,8,16,32, 64,128, and 256 tones.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > These 5 "standard" configurations are just
                          > configurations that are overall best compromise of speed and
                          > ability to get through (robustness) for each of the different
                          > bandwidths.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > 125/4 -- approx 7wpm
                          > > > > 250/8 -- approx 15wpm
                          > > > > 500/16 -- approx 20wpm
                          > > > > 1000/32 -- approx 25wpm
                          > > > > 2000/64 -- approx 30wpm
                          > > > >
                          > > > > But that does NOT mean non standard modes are better or
                          > worse OR should NOT used. There are a total of 40 combinations
                          > you can use IF the digital program you use has NOT limited
                          > your choices.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > 125/2, 125/4, 125/8, 125/16, 125/32, 125/64, 125/128,
                          > 125/256
                          > > > > 250/2, 250/4, 250/8, 250/16, 250/32, 250/64, 250/128,
                          > 250/256
                          > > > > 500/2, 500/4, 500/8, 500/16, 500/32, 500/64, 500/128,
                          > 500/256
                          > > > > 1000/2, 1000/4, 1000/8, 1000/16, 1000/32, 1000/64,
                          > 1000/128, 1000/256
                          > > > > 2000/2, 2000/4, 2000/8, 2000/16, 2000/32, 2000/64,
                          > 2000/128, 2000/256
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Theoretically the fastest Olivia configuration is the
                          > one with the widest bandwidth and the lowest tones. Though I
                          > have, in the course of testing them, seen NO speed increase
                          > between the 2 tone variations AND the 4 tone variations. But
                          > there is speed differences between the 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128,
                          > and 256 tone configurations within all the different
                          > bandwidths.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > for example :
                          > > > > 125/2 and 125/4 are the fastest of the 125hz Olivia
                          > speeds. 125/8 is slower, 125/16 slower yet, etc., etc., until
                          > 125/256 is the slowest of all the 125hz modes.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > 250/2 and 250/4 are the fastest of the 250hz Olivia
                          > speeds. 250/8 is slower, 250/16 slower yet, etc., etc., until
                          > 250/256 is the slowest of all the 250hz modes.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > And so it goes for all the 5 different bandwidth
                          > choices.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > ALSO the more WIDE the mode the FASTER it can be
                          > DEPENDING on how many tones are used. It's a little
                          > complicated but makes sense after you get used to it.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > 125/4 is abt 7wpm
                          > > > > and 250/8 is abt 15wpm
                          > > > > BUT 250/16 is only abt 7 wpm
                          > > > > AND 250/4 is abt 20wpm
                          > > > >
                          > > > > 500/16 is abt 20wpm
                          > > > > and 500/8 is abt 30wpm
                          > > > > BUT 500/32 is only abt 15wpm
                          > > > > 500/64 is approx 7wpm
                          > > > >
                          > > > > for each bandwidth if you increase the TONES the speed
                          > decreases. Decrease the tones and the speed increases.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > However, for each bandwidth if you increase the TONES
                          > the ability to copy well beneath the noise floor INCREASES.
                          > Decrease the TONES and the ability to copy well beneath the
                          > noise floor Decreases.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > So... theoretically the fastest mode would be 2000/2 -
                          > though in reality I have not measured where there is any speed
                          > increase by going from 4 tone to 2 tone so I THINK the fastest
                          > Olivia is 2000/4 mode. And for VHF FM like you are thinking of
                          > using that would probably be the best mode for traffic
                          > handling with Olivia since the the ability to copy well
                          > beneath the noise floor is not a factor with FM repeaters all
                          > that much,
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Theoretically the MOST robust mode (the ability to copy
                          > well beneath the noise floor) is 125/256 but it would be
                          > extremely slow - it might make JT65A look speedy hi hi BUT it
                          > still might be useful.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > There is also the QRM, QRN, polar flutter, and other
                          > things that affect what combination of tones and bandwidths
                          > are best for any given situation.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > SO ..... THIS may be MORE info than you really need OR
                          > want hi hi
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Bottom line is that for emcomm stuff speed is important
                          > AND on 2mtr FM being robust is not quite as important as HF.
                          > The faster Olivia modes like 2000/4, 2000/8 or 1000/4 or
                          > 1000/8 depending on which your software supports is desirable.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > FLDigi currently supports ALL 40 configurations. DM780
                          > v. 5 and MultiPSK have limited their choices and frankly that
                          > bothers me BUT that's the choice THEY have made for their
                          > users.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > ---Gary WB8ROL
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --
                          >
                          > Gary L. Robinson
                          > WB8ROL
                          > grobin1949@...
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                        • Gary L. Robinson
                          I could be mistaken Phil, but I think the baud rate is calculated by dividing the bandwidth by the number of tones. So maybe neither of US are crazy ... ...
                          Message 12 of 17 , Mar 27, 2010
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I could be mistaken Phil, but I think the baud rate is calculated by dividing the bandwidth by the number of tones.  So maybe neither of US are crazy ...

                            ---Gary WB8ROL

                            On 3/27/10, phil williams <ka1gmn@...> wrote:
                             

                            One in talking in baud and the other is talk in terms of bandwidth and
                            tones.

                            I am trying to figure which one of you is more crazy.

                            philw de ka1gmn



                            On Fri, 2010-03-26 at 23:46 -0400, Gary L. Robinson wrote:
                            >
                            > Check out the Olivia specs at
                            > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olivia_MFSK
                            >
                            > EVEN IF the HF 300 baud limit pertains to digital modes INSIDE the
                            > data segments, and I'm not sure it does or not - the ONLY 3 of the 40
                            > possible combinations that would be in question would be 1000/2,
                            > 2000/2, and 2000/4.
                            >
                            > The other 37, WHICH INCLUDES : 2000/256, 2000/125, 2000/64, 2000/32,
                            > 2000/16, and 2000/8, 1000/256, 1000/128, 1000/64, 1000/32, 1000/16,
                            > 1000/8, and 1000/4 all definitely have a lower baud rate.
                            >
                            > And I don't know ANYONE who has ever used 2 tone Olivia modes since
                            > there does NOT seem to be any speed increase OR other advantage that
                            > is obvious between the 2 and 4 tones versions.
                            >
                            > I have ALSO never heard anyone use Olivia 2000/4 on HF either.
                            >
                            > BUT I am still not convinced ANY of the OLIVIA configurations are
                            > illegal on HF but would like to hear what others might think.
                            >
                            > ---Gary WB8ROL
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > On 3/26/10, fred_darrah <cfdarrah@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Gary,
                            > I may be wrong but any digital mode that exceeds 300 baud on
                            > HF is not legal by FCC standards/ Possibly that has changed
                            > but I do not see it in the FCC rules and orders.Please
                            > enlighten me.
                            > 73 Fred N9GUE
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In oliviadata@yahoogroups.com, "garylinnrobinson"
                            > <grobin1949@...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > ALL 40 of the different olivia configurations ARE LEGAL in
                            > the U.S.A.
                            > > Saying there are illegal olivia modes in the U.S.A. is a
                            > FALSEHOOD.
                            > >
                            > > BTW, beside the FACT that ALL OLIVIA MODES ARE LEGAL in the
                            > U.S.A. I have been QRM'd by tons of people on many many modes
                            > while I've been on many many modes. QRMing other hams
                            > intentionally IS illegal regardless of mode, bandwidth, power,
                            > or any other reason I can think of.
                            > > And NO ONE DIGITAL MODE owns any band segment or sub
                            > segment. It's first come first serve - though many of of us do
                            > honor some voluntary segments.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > but saying some Olivia modes are illegal in the U.S.A. is
                            > NOT TRUE.
                            > >
                            > > ---Gary WB8ROL
                            > >
                            > > --- In oliviadata@yahoogroups.com, "fred_darrah" <cfdarrah@>
                            > wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > Gary,
                            > > > Some of the 2000 Olivia modes are not legal in the US. You
                            > can look it up but I think the tones 2,4,8 are not legal plus
                            > use excessive band widths. I observed a 40 meter Olivia QSO
                            > today 7076 on top of JT modes at 1000 width. A little
                            > inconsiderate and excessive on a crowded band.Not all
                            > operators use common sense.
                            > > > 73 Fred N9GUE
                            > > >
                            > > > --- In oliviadata@yahoogroups.com, Curtis Wright
                            > <cwright1776@> wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Wonderful
                            > > > > Â
                            > > > > (You have told me EXACTLY what I wanted to know.)
                            > > > > Â
                            > > > > It is a mistake to think that a repeater is not a "weak
                            > signal" situation. The club of which I am president has a 2
                            > meter repeater that is nearly ideally suited on a tall tower
                            > in a high place, but we still have spots no more than 2 miles
                            > from the repeater that are very tough to hit. Lots of granite
                            > and geology here. Once you can hit the repeater, no problem,
                            > except when the hospital committee wants to move the EOC into
                            > the bowels of a steel building.
                            > > > > Â
                            > > > > Thank you for the information, it is really helpful.
                            > > > > Â
                            > > > > Curt
                            > > > >
                            > > > > --- On Thu, 3/18/10, garylinnrobinson <grobin1949@>
                            > wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > From: garylinnrobinson <grobin1949@>
                            > > > > Subject: [olivia] Re: Olivia via repeater
                            > > > > To: oliviadata@yahoogroups.com
                            > > > > Date: Thursday, March 18, 2010, 3:36 PM
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Â
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Curt,
                            > > > > I forgot to answer your question about speed
                            > differences. YES, there are speed differences with ALL the
                            > different Olivia configurations.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Standard configurations for Olivia are the following 5
                            > combinations of bandwidth and number of tones that Olivia
                            > uses. Olivia can use any combination of 125,250,500, 1000,and
                            > 2000hz bandwidths with 2,4,8,16,32, 64,128, and 256 tones.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > These 5 "standard" configurations are just
                            > configurations that are overall best compromise of speed and
                            > ability to get through (robustness) for each of the different
                            > bandwidths.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > 125/4 -- approx 7wpm
                            > > > > 250/8 -- approx 15wpm
                            > > > > 500/16 -- approx 20wpm
                            > > > > 1000/32 -- approx 25wpm
                            > > > > 2000/64 -- approx 30wpm
                            > > > >
                            > > > > But that does NOT mean non standard modes are better or
                            > worse OR should NOT used. There are a total of 40 combinations
                            > you can use IF the digital program you use has NOT limited
                            > your choices.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > 125/2, 125/4, 125/8, 125/16, 125/32, 125/64, 125/128,
                            > 125/256
                            > > > > 250/2, 250/4, 250/8, 250/16, 250/32, 250/64, 250/128,
                            > 250/256
                            > > > > 500/2, 500/4, 500/8, 500/16, 500/32, 500/64, 500/128,
                            > 500/256
                            > > > > 1000/2, 1000/4, 1000/8, 1000/16, 1000/32, 1000/64,
                            > 1000/128, 1000/256
                            > > > > 2000/2, 2000/4, 2000/8, 2000/16, 2000/32, 2000/64,
                            > 2000/128, 2000/256
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Theoretically the fastest Olivia configuration is the
                            > one with the widest bandwidth and the lowest tones. Though I
                            > have, in the course of testing them, seen NO speed increase
                            > between the 2 tone variations AND the 4 tone variations. But
                            > there is speed differences between the 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128,
                            > and 256 tone configurations within all the different
                            > bandwidths.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > for example :
                            > > > > 125/2 and 125/4 are the fastest of the 125hz Olivia
                            > speeds. 125/8 is slower, 125/16 slower yet, etc., etc., until
                            > 125/256 is the slowest of all the 125hz modes.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > 250/2 and 250/4 are the fastest of the 250hz Olivia
                            > speeds. 250/8 is slower, 250/16 slower yet, etc., etc., until
                            > 250/256 is the slowest of all the 250hz modes.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > And so it goes for all the 5 different bandwidth
                            > choices.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > ALSO the more WIDE the mode the FASTER it can be
                            > DEPENDING on how many tones are used. It's a little
                            > complicated but makes sense after you get used to it.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > 125/4 is abt 7wpm
                            > > > > and 250/8 is abt 15wpm
                            > > > > BUT 250/16 is only abt 7 wpm
                            > > > > AND 250/4 is abt 20wpm
                            > > > >
                            > > > > 500/16 is abt 20wpm
                            > > > > and 500/8 is abt 30wpm
                            > > > > BUT 500/32 is only abt 15wpm
                            > > > > 500/64 is approx 7wpm
                            > > > >
                            > > > > for each bandwidth if you increase the TONES the speed
                            > decreases. Decrease the tones and the speed increases.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > However, for each bandwidth if you increase the TONES
                            > the ability to copy well beneath the noise floor INCREASES.
                            > Decrease the TONES and the ability to copy well beneath the
                            > noise floor Decreases.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > So... theoretically the fastest mode would be 2000/2 -
                            > though in reality I have not measured where there is any speed
                            > increase by going from 4 tone to 2 tone so I THINK the fastest
                            > Olivia is 2000/4 mode. And for VHF FM like you are thinking of
                            > using that would probably be the best mode for traffic
                            > handling with Olivia since the the ability to copy well
                            > beneath the noise floor is not a factor with FM repeaters all
                            > that much,
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Theoretically the MOST robust mode (the ability to copy
                            > well beneath the noise floor) is 125/256 but it would be
                            > extremely slow - it might make JT65A look speedy hi hi BUT it
                            > still might be useful.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > There is also the QRM, QRN, polar flutter, and other
                            > things that affect what combination of tones and bandwidths
                            > are best for any given situation.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > SO ..... THIS may be MORE info than you really need OR
                            > want hi hi
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Bottom line is that for emcomm stuff speed is important
                            > AND on 2mtr FM being robust is not quite as important as HF.
                            > The faster Olivia modes like 2000/4, 2000/8 or 1000/4 or
                            > 1000/8 depending on which your software supports is desirable.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > FLDigi currently supports ALL 40 configurations. DM780
                            > v. 5 and MultiPSK have limited their choices and frankly that
                            > bothers me BUT that's the choice THEY have made for their
                            > users.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > ---Gary WB8ROL
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --
                            >
                            > Gary L. Robinson
                            > WB8ROL
                            > grobin1949@...
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >




                            --

                            Gary L. Robinson
                            WB8ROL
                            grobin1949@...
                          • fred_darrah
                            Gary, I never thought you were crazy either. Part 97.69 states below 28 mhz 300 baud 28 to 50 1200 baud.Other speeds apply at higher frequencies. I did not set
                            Message 13 of 17 , Mar 27, 2010
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Gary,
                              I never thought you were crazy either. Part 97.69 states below 28 mhz 300 baud 28 to 50 1200 baud.Other speeds apply at higher frequencies. I did not set the rules but am in need of being aware of what i send over the air is legal.
                              73 Fred N9GUE

                              --- In oliviadata@yahoogroups.com, "Gary L. Robinson" <grobin1949@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > I could be mistaken Phil, but I think the baud rate is calculated by
                              > dividing the bandwidth by the number of tones. So maybe neither of US are
                              > crazy ...
                              >
                              > ---Gary WB8ROL
                              >
                              > On 3/27/10, phil williams <ka1gmn@...> wrote:
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > One in talking in baud and the other is talk in terms of bandwidth and
                              > > tones.
                              > >
                              > > I am trying to figure which one of you is more crazy.
                              > >
                              > > philw de ka1gmn
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > On Fri, 2010-03-26 at 23:46 -0400, Gary L. Robinson wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > Check out the Olivia specs at
                              > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olivia_MFSK
                              > > >
                              > > > EVEN IF the HF 300 baud limit pertains to digital modes INSIDE the
                              > > > data segments, and I'm not sure it does or not - the ONLY 3 of the 40
                              > > > possible combinations that would be in question would be 1000/2,
                              > > > 2000/2, and 2000/4.
                              > > >
                              > > > The other 37, WHICH INCLUDES : 2000/256, 2000/125, 2000/64, 2000/32,
                              > > > 2000/16, and 2000/8, 1000/256, 1000/128, 1000/64, 1000/32, 1000/16,
                              > > > 1000/8, and 1000/4 all definitely have a lower baud rate.
                              > > >
                              > > > And I don't know ANYONE who has ever used 2 tone Olivia modes since
                              > > > there does NOT seem to be any speed increase OR other advantage that
                              > > > is obvious between the 2 and 4 tones versions.
                              > > >
                              > > > I have ALSO never heard anyone use Olivia 2000/4 on HF either.
                              > > >
                              > > > BUT I am still not convinced ANY of the OLIVIA configurations are
                              > > > illegal on HF but would like to hear what others might think.
                              > > >
                              > > > ---Gary WB8ROL
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > On 3/26/10, fred_darrah <cfdarrah@...<cfdarrah%40sbcglobal.net>>
                              > > wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > Gary,
                              > > > I may be wrong but any digital mode that exceeds 300 baud on
                              > > > HF is not legal by FCC standards/ Possibly that has changed
                              > > > but I do not see it in the FCC rules and orders.Please
                              > > > enlighten me.
                              > > > 73 Fred N9GUE
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > --- In oliviadata@yahoogroups.com <oliviadata%40yahoogroups.com>,
                              > > "garylinnrobinson"
                              > > > <grobin1949@> wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > ALL 40 of the different olivia configurations ARE LEGAL in
                              > > > the U.S.A.
                              > > > > Saying there are illegal olivia modes in the U.S.A. is a
                              > > > FALSEHOOD.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > BTW, beside the FACT that ALL OLIVIA MODES ARE LEGAL in the
                              > > > U.S.A. I have been QRM'd by tons of people on many many modes
                              > > > while I've been on many many modes. QRMing other hams
                              > > > intentionally IS illegal regardless of mode, bandwidth, power,
                              > > > or any other reason I can think of.
                              > > > > And NO ONE DIGITAL MODE owns any band segment or sub
                              > > > segment. It's first come first serve - though many of of us do
                              > > > honor some voluntary segments.
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > but saying some Olivia modes are illegal in the U.S.A. is
                              > > > NOT TRUE.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > ---Gary WB8ROL
                              > > > >
                              > > > > --- In oliviadata@yahoogroups.com <oliviadata%40yahoogroups.com>,
                              > > "fred_darrah" <cfdarrah@>
                              > > > wrote:
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Gary,
                              > > > > > Some of the 2000 Olivia modes are not legal in the US. You
                              > > > can look it up but I think the tones 2,4,8 are not legal plus
                              > > > use excessive band widths. I observed a 40 meter Olivia QSO
                              > > > today 7076 on top of JT modes at 1000 width. A little
                              > > > inconsiderate and excessive on a crowded band.Not all
                              > > > operators use common sense.
                              > > > > > 73 Fred N9GUE
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > --- In oliviadata@yahoogroups.com <oliviadata%40yahoogroups.com>,
                              > > Curtis Wright
                              > > > <cwright1776@> wrote:
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Wonderful
                              > > > > > > Â
                              > > > > > > (You have told me EXACTLY what I wanted to know.)
                              > > > > > > Â
                              > > > > > > It is a mistake to think that a repeater is not a "weak
                              > > > signal" situation. The club of which I am president has a 2
                              > > > meter repeater that is nearly ideally suited on a tall tower
                              > > > in a high place, but we still have spots no more than 2 miles
                              > > > from the repeater that are very tough to hit. Lots of granite
                              > > > and geology here. Once you can hit the repeater, no problem,
                              > > > except when the hospital committee wants to move the EOC into
                              > > > the bowels of a steel building.
                              > > > > > > Â
                              > > > > > > Thank you for the information, it is really helpful.
                              > > > > > > Â
                              > > > > > > Curt
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > --- On Thu, 3/18/10, garylinnrobinson <grobin1949@>
                              > > > wrote:
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > From: garylinnrobinson <grobin1949@>
                              > > > > > > Subject: [olivia] Re: Olivia via repeater
                              > > > > > > To: oliviadata@yahoogroups.com <oliviadata%40yahoogroups.com>
                              > > > > > > Date: Thursday, March 18, 2010, 3:36 PM
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Â
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Curt,
                              > > > > > > I forgot to answer your question about speed
                              > > > differences. YES, there are speed differences with ALL the
                              > > > different Olivia configurations.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Standard configurations for Olivia are the following 5
                              > > > combinations of bandwidth and number of tones that Olivia
                              > > > uses. Olivia can use any combination of 125,250,500, 1000,and
                              > > > 2000hz bandwidths with 2,4,8,16,32, 64,128, and 256 tones.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > These 5 "standard" configurations are just
                              > > > configurations that are overall best compromise of speed and
                              > > > ability to get through (robustness) for each of the different
                              > > > bandwidths.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > 125/4 -- approx 7wpm
                              > > > > > > 250/8 -- approx 15wpm
                              > > > > > > 500/16 -- approx 20wpm
                              > > > > > > 1000/32 -- approx 25wpm
                              > > > > > > 2000/64 -- approx 30wpm
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > But that does NOT mean non standard modes are better or
                              > > > worse OR should NOT used. There are a total of 40 combinations
                              > > > you can use IF the digital program you use has NOT limited
                              > > > your choices.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > 125/2, 125/4, 125/8, 125/16, 125/32, 125/64, 125/128,
                              > > > 125/256
                              > > > > > > 250/2, 250/4, 250/8, 250/16, 250/32, 250/64, 250/128,
                              > > > 250/256
                              > > > > > > 500/2, 500/4, 500/8, 500/16, 500/32, 500/64, 500/128,
                              > > > 500/256
                              > > > > > > 1000/2, 1000/4, 1000/8, 1000/16, 1000/32, 1000/64,
                              > > > 1000/128, 1000/256
                              > > > > > > 2000/2, 2000/4, 2000/8, 2000/16, 2000/32, 2000/64,
                              > > > 2000/128, 2000/256
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Theoretically the fastest Olivia configuration is the
                              > > > one with the widest bandwidth and the lowest tones. Though I
                              > > > have, in the course of testing them, seen NO speed increase
                              > > > between the 2 tone variations AND the 4 tone variations. But
                              > > > there is speed differences between the 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128,
                              > > > and 256 tone configurations within all the different
                              > > > bandwidths.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > for example :
                              > > > > > > 125/2 and 125/4 are the fastest of the 125hz Olivia
                              > > > speeds. 125/8 is slower, 125/16 slower yet, etc., etc., until
                              > > > 125/256 is the slowest of all the 125hz modes.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > 250/2 and 250/4 are the fastest of the 250hz Olivia
                              > > > speeds. 250/8 is slower, 250/16 slower yet, etc., etc., until
                              > > > 250/256 is the slowest of all the 250hz modes.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > And so it goes for all the 5 different bandwidth
                              > > > choices.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > ALSO the more WIDE the mode the FASTER it can be
                              > > > DEPENDING on how many tones are used. It's a little
                              > > > complicated but makes sense after you get used to it.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > 125/4 is abt 7wpm
                              > > > > > > and 250/8 is abt 15wpm
                              > > > > > > BUT 250/16 is only abt 7 wpm
                              > > > > > > AND 250/4 is abt 20wpm
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > 500/16 is abt 20wpm
                              > > > > > > and 500/8 is abt 30wpm
                              > > > > > > BUT 500/32 is only abt 15wpm
                              > > > > > > 500/64 is approx 7wpm
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > for each bandwidth if you increase the TONES the speed
                              > > > decreases. Decrease the tones and the speed increases.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > However, for each bandwidth if you increase the TONES
                              > > > the ability to copy well beneath the noise floor INCREASES.
                              > > > Decrease the TONES and the ability to copy well beneath the
                              > > > noise floor Decreases.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > So... theoretically the fastest mode would be 2000/2 -
                              > > > though in reality I have not measured where there is any speed
                              > > > increase by going from 4 tone to 2 tone so I THINK the fastest
                              > > > Olivia is 2000/4 mode. And for VHF FM like you are thinking of
                              > > > using that would probably be the best mode for traffic
                              > > > handling with Olivia since the the ability to copy well
                              > > > beneath the noise floor is not a factor with FM repeaters all
                              > > > that much,
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Theoretically the MOST robust mode (the ability to copy
                              > > > well beneath the noise floor) is 125/256 but it would be
                              > > > extremely slow - it might make JT65A look speedy hi hi BUT it
                              > > > still might be useful.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > There is also the QRM, QRN, polar flutter, and other
                              > > > things that affect what combination of tones and bandwidths
                              > > > are best for any given situation.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > SO ..... THIS may be MORE info than you really need OR
                              > > > want hi hi
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Bottom line is that for emcomm stuff speed is important
                              > > > AND on 2mtr FM being robust is not quite as important as HF.
                              > > > The faster Olivia modes like 2000/4, 2000/8 or 1000/4 or
                              > > > 1000/8 depending on which your software supports is desirable.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > FLDigi currently supports ALL 40 configurations. DM780
                              > > > v. 5 and MultiPSK have limited their choices and frankly that
                              > > > bothers me BUT that's the choice THEY have made for their
                              > > > users.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > ---Gary WB8ROL
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > --
                              > > >
                              > > > Gary L. Robinson
                              > > > WB8ROL
                              > > > grobin1949@... <grobin1949%40gmail.com>
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > --
                              >
                              > Gary L. Robinson
                              > WB8ROL
                              > grobin1949@...
                              >
                            • Curtis Wright
                              (Since I asked the question that kicked this all off)   My question pertained to the emergency use of Olivia via the local 144 MHZ repeater so as to form a 25
                              Message 14 of 17 , Mar 30, 2010
                              • 0 Attachment
                                (Since I asked the question that kicked this all off)
                                 
                                My question pertained to the emergency use of Olivia via the local 144 MHZ
                                repeater so as to form a 25 mile range network that could transmit text messages
                                from one ICS unified command site to another in real time. The interest in Olivia,
                                rather than PSK-31 or other digital mode was that some of the sites linking into
                                the repeater are marginal for low power FM on simple vertical antennas. I wanted
                                to know if there was enough of a chance that Olivia would work to give it a try.
                                 
                                My sense is that BOTH of my more experienced consultants are correct, in that
                                it is inappropriate and may be illegal to use 2 KC of bandwidth in the HF bands
                                in the absence of a real emergency, (also amazingly inconsiderate) but use of wider bandwidths in the VHF bands is less of a problem due to the shorter range of such transmissions and the wider bandwidths available.
                                 
                                (But my opinion is uninformed, since I have not given it a try yet.)
                                 
                                AA3JE

                                --- On Sat, 3/27/10, fred_darrah <cfdarrah@...> wrote:

                                From: fred_darrah <cfdarrah@...>
                                Subject: [olivia] Re: Olivia via repeater
                                To: oliviadata@yahoogroups.com
                                Date: Saturday, March 27, 2010, 3:18 PM

                                 
                                Gary,
                                I never thought you were crazy either. Part 97.69 states below 28 mhz 300 baud 28 to 50 1200 baud.Other speeds apply at higher frequencies. I did not set the rules but am in need of being aware of what i send over the air is legal.
                                73 Fred N9GUE

                                --- In oliviadata@yahoogro ups.com, "Gary L. Robinson" <grobin1949@ ...> wrote:
                                >
                                > I could be mistaken Phil, but I think the baud rate is calculated by
                                > dividing the bandwidth by the number of tones. So maybe neither of US are
                                > crazy ...
                                >
                                > ---Gary WB8ROL
                                >
                                > On 3/27/10, phil williams <ka1gmn@...> wrote:
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > One in talking in baud and the other is talk in terms of bandwidth and
                                > > tones.
                                > >
                                > > I am trying to figure which one of you is more crazy.
                                > >
                                > > philw de ka1gmn
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > On Fri, 2010-03-26 at 23:46 -0400, Gary L. Robinson wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > Check out the Olivia specs at
                                > > > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Olivia_MFSK
                                > > >
                                > > > EVEN IF the HF 300 baud limit pertains to digital modes INSIDE the
                                > > > data segments, and I'm not sure it does or not - the ONLY 3 of the 40
                                > > > possible combinations that would be in question would be 1000/2,
                                > > > 2000/2, and 2000/4.
                                > > >
                                > > > The other 37, WHICH INCLUDES : 2000/256, 2000/125, 2000/64, 2000/32,
                                > > > 2000/16, and 2000/8, 1000/256, 1000/128, 1000/64, 1000/32, 1000/16,
                                > > > 1000/8, and 1000/4 all definitely have a lower baud rate.
                                > > >
                                > > > And I don't know ANYONE who has ever used 2 tone Olivia modes since
                                > > > there does NOT seem to be any speed increase OR other advantage that
                                > > > is obvious between the 2 and 4 tones versions.
                                > > >
                                > > > I have ALSO never heard anyone use Olivia 2000/4 on HF either.
                                > > >
                                > > > BUT I am still not convinced ANY of the OLIVIA configurations are
                                > > > illegal on HF but would like to hear what others might think.
                                > > >
                                > > > ---Gary WB8ROL
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > On 3/26/10, fred_darrah <cfdarrah@.. .<cfdarrah% 40sbcglobal. net>>
                                > > wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > Gary,
                                > > > I may be wrong but any digital mode that exceeds 300 baud on
                                > > > HF is not legal by FCC standards/ Possibly that has changed
                                > > > but I do not see it in the FCC rules and orders.Please
                                > > > enlighten me.
                                > > > 73 Fred N9GUE
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > --- In oliviadata@yahoogro ups.com <oliviadata% 40yahoogroups. com>,
                                > > "garylinnrobinson"
                                > > > <grobin1949@ > wrote:
                                > > > >
                                > > > > ALL 40 of the different olivia configurations ARE LEGAL in
                                > > > the U.S.A.
                                > > > > Saying there are illegal olivia modes in the U.S.A. is a
                                > > > FALSEHOOD.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > BTW, beside the FACT that ALL OLIVIA MODES ARE LEGAL in the
                                > > > U.S.A. I have been QRM'd by tons of people on many many modes
                                > > > while I've been on many many modes. QRMing other hams
                                > > > intentionally IS illegal regardless of mode, bandwidth, power,
                                > > > or any other reason I can think of.
                                > > > > And NO ONE DIGITAL MODE owns any band segment or sub
                                > > > segment. It's first come first serve - though many of of us do
                                > > > honor some voluntary segments.
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > but saying some Olivia modes are illegal in the U.S.A. is
                                > > > NOT TRUE.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > ---Gary WB8ROL
                                > > > >
                                > > > > --- In oliviadata@yahoogro ups.com <oliviadata% 40yahoogroups. com>,
                                > > "fred_darrah" <cfdarrah@>
                                > > > wrote:
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Gary,
                                > > > > > Some of the 2000 Olivia modes are not legal in the US. You
                                > > > can look it up but I think the tones 2,4,8 are not legal plus
                                > > > use excessive band widths. I observed a 40 meter Olivia QSO
                                > > > today 7076 on top of JT modes at 1000 width. A little
                                > > > inconsiderate and excessive on a crowded band.Not all
                                > > > operators use common sense.
                                > > > > > 73 Fred N9GUE
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > --- In oliviadata@yahoogro ups.com <oliviadata% 40yahoogroups. com>,
                                > > Curtis Wright
                                > > > <cwright1776@ > wrote:
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Wonderful
                                > > > > > > Â
                                > > > > > > (You have told me EXACTLY what I wanted to know.)
                                > > > > > > Â
                                > > > > > > It is a mistake to think that a repeater is not a "weak
                                > > > signal" situation. The club of which I am president has a 2
                                > > > meter repeater that is nearly ideally suited on a tall tower
                                > > > in a high place, but we still have spots no more than 2 miles
                                > > > from the repeater that are very tough to hit. Lots of granite
                                > > > and geology here. Once you can hit the repeater, no problem,
                                > > > except when the hospital committee wants to move the EOC into
                                > > > the bowels of a steel building.
                                > > > > > > Â
                                > > > > > > Thank you for the information, it is really helpful.
                                > > > > > > Â
                                > > > > > > Curt
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > --- On Thu, 3/18/10, garylinnrobinson <grobin1949@ >
                                > > > wrote:
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > From: garylinnrobinson <grobin1949@ >
                                > > > > > > Subject: [olivia] Re: Olivia via repeater
                                > > > > > > To: oliviadata@yahoogro ups.com <oliviadata% 40yahoogroups. com>
                                > > > > > > Date: Thursday, March 18, 2010, 3:36 PM
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Â
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Curt,
                                > > > > > > I forgot to answer your question about speed
                                > > > differences. YES, there are speed differences with ALL the
                                > > > different Olivia configurations.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Standard configurations for Olivia are the following 5
                                > > > combinations of bandwidth and number of tones that Olivia
                                > > > uses. Olivia can use any combination of 125,250,500, 1000,and
                                > > > 2000hz bandwidths with 2,4,8,16,32, 64,128, and 256 tones.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > These 5 "standard" configurations are just
                                > > > configurations that are overall best compromise of speed and
                                > > > ability to get through (robustness) for each of the different
                                > > > bandwidths.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > 125/4 -- approx 7wpm
                                > > > > > > 250/8 -- approx 15wpm
                                > > > > > > 500/16 -- approx 20wpm
                                > > > > > > 1000/32 -- approx 25wpm
                                > > > > > > 2000/64 -- approx 30wpm
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > But that does NOT mean non standard modes are better or
                                > > > worse OR should NOT used. There are a total of 40 combinations
                                > > > you can use IF the digital program you use has NOT limited
                                > > > your choices.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > 125/2, 125/4, 125/8, 125/16, 125/32, 125/64, 125/128,
                                > > > 125/256
                                > > > > > > 250/2, 250/4, 250/8, 250/16, 250/32, 250/64, 250/128,
                                > > > 250/256
                                > > > > > > 500/2, 500/4, 500/8, 500/16, 500/32, 500/64, 500/128,
                                > > > 500/256
                                > > > > > > 1000/2, 1000/4, 1000/8, 1000/16, 1000/32, 1000/64,
                                > > > 1000/128, 1000/256
                                > > > > > > 2000/2, 2000/4, 2000/8, 2000/16, 2000/32, 2000/64,
                                > > > 2000/128, 2000/256
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Theoretically the fastest Olivia configuration is the
                                > > > one with the widest bandwidth and the lowest tones. Though I
                                > > > have, in the course of testing them, seen NO speed increase
                                > > > between the 2 tone variations AND the 4 tone variations. But
                                > > > there is speed differences between the 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128,
                                > > > and 256 tone configurations within all the different
                                > > > bandwidths.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > for example :
                                > > > > > > 125/2 and 125/4 are the fastest of the 125hz Olivia
                                > > > speeds. 125/8 is slower, 125/16 slower yet, etc., etc., until
                                > > > 125/256 is the slowest of all the 125hz modes.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > 250/2 and 250/4 are the fastest of the 250hz Olivia
                                > > > speeds. 250/8 is slower, 250/16 slower yet, etc., etc., until
                                > > > 250/256 is the slowest of all the 250hz modes.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > And so it goes for all the 5 different bandwidth
                                > > > choices.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > ALSO the more WIDE the mode the FASTER it can be
                                > > > DEPENDING on how many tones are used. It's a little
                                > > > complicated but makes sense after you get used to it.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > 125/4 is abt 7wpm
                                > > > > > > and 250/8 is abt 15wpm
                                > > > > > > BUT 250/16 is only abt 7 wpm
                                > > > > > > AND 250/4 is abt 20wpm
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > 500/16 is abt 20wpm
                                > > > > > > and 500/8 is abt 30wpm
                                > > > > > > BUT 500/32 is only abt 15wpm
                                > > > > > > 500/64 is approx 7wpm
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > for each bandwidth if you increase the TONES the speed
                                > > > decreases. Decrease the tones and the speed increases.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > However, for each bandwidth if you increase the TONES
                                > > > the ability to copy well beneath the noise floor INCREASES.
                                > > > Decrease the TONES and the ability to copy well beneath the
                                > > > noise floor Decreases.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > So... theoretically the fastest mode would be 2000/2 -
                                > > > though in reality I have not measured where there is any speed
                                > > > increase by going from 4 tone to 2 tone so I THINK the fastest
                                > > > Olivia is 2000/4 mode. And for VHF FM like you are thinking of
                                > > > using that would probably be the best mode for traffic
                                > > > handling with Olivia since the the ability to copy well
                                > > > beneath the noise floor is not a factor with FM repeaters all
                                > > > that much,
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Theoretically the MOST robust mode (the ability to copy
                                > > > well beneath the noise floor) is 125/256 but it would be
                                > > > extremely slow - it might make JT65A look speedy hi hi BUT it
                                > > > still might be useful.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > There is also the QRM, QRN, polar flutter, and other
                                > > > things that affect what combination of tones and bandwidths
                                > > > are best for any given situation.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > SO ..... THIS may be MORE info than you really need OR
                                > > > want hi hi
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Bottom line is that for emcomm stuff speed is important
                                > > > AND on 2mtr FM being robust is not quite as important as HF.
                                > > > The faster Olivia modes like 2000/4, 2000/8 or 1000/4 or
                                > > > 1000/8 depending on which your software supports is desirable.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > FLDigi currently supports ALL 40 configurations. DM780
                                > > > v. 5 and MultiPSK have limited their choices and frankly that
                                > > > bothers me BUT that's the choice THEY have made for their
                                > > > users.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > ---Gary WB8ROL
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > --
                                > > >
                                > > > Gary L. Robinson
                                > > > WB8ROL
                                > > > grobin1949@. .. <grobin1949% 40gmail.com>
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > --
                                >
                                > Gary L. Robinson
                                > WB8ROL
                                > grobin1949@. ..
                                >


                              • Gary L. Robinson
                                Curtis, It is still my opinion that ALL Olivia modes are legal in the U.S.A. And it is possible that I am wrong but my understanding of any 1khz restriction
                                Message 15 of 17 , Mar 30, 2010
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Curtis,
                                     It is still my opinion that ALL Olivia modes are legal in the U.S.A.  And it is possible that I am wrong but my understanding of any 1khz restriction or 300 baud restriction was for RTTY and FSK modes.
                                     Olivia is a MFSK mode.
                                     I would love to hear from ANY real legal experts on this.
                                     IN any event, using it on VHF is not a problem. And especially on repeaters. The width of the FM repeater signal is already larger than 2000 hz and since only one station at a time may transmit through a repeater there is NO problem.  The bandwidth of the repeater signal won't be affected by using Olivia 2000hz modes.
                                      As for general use of ANY legal wide modes on HF - In my opinion it is not inconsiderate. If a ham uses legal operating procedures it is just as considerate as any mode.
                                     In my opinion, CONTESTS are inconsiderate AND much, if not most, of the operation involved during contests is illegal.  BUT they are popular and even have a magazine.
                                    
                                  ---Gary WB8ROL

                                  On 3/30/10, Curtis Wright <cwright1776@...> wrote:
                                   

                                  (Since I asked the question that kicked this all off)
                                   
                                  My question pertained to the emergency use of Olivia via the local 144 MHZ
                                  repeater so as to form a 25 mile range network that could transmit text messages
                                  from one ICS unified command site to another in real time. The interest in Olivia,
                                  rather than PSK-31 or other digital mode was that some of the sites linking into
                                  the repeater are marginal for low power FM on simple vertical antennas. I wanted
                                  to know if there was enough of a chance that Olivia would work to give it a try.
                                   
                                  My sense is that BOTH of my more experienced consultants are correct, in that
                                  it is inappropriate and may be illegal to use 2 KC of bandwidth in the HF bands
                                  in the absence of a real emergency, (also amazingly inconsiderate) but use of wider bandwidths in the VHF bands is less of a problem due to the shorter range of such transmissions and the wider bandwidths available.
                                   
                                  (But my opinion is uninformed, since I have not given it a try yet.)
                                   
                                  AA3JE

                                  --- On Sat, 3/27/10, fred_darrah <cfdarrah@...> wrote:

                                  From: fred_darrah <cfdarrah@...>
                                  Subject: [olivia] Re: Olivia via repeater
                                  To: oliviadata@yahoogroups.com
                                  Date: Saturday, March 27, 2010, 3:18 PM

                                   
                                  Gary,
                                  I never thought you were crazy either. Part 97.69 states below 28 mhz 300 baud 28 to 50 1200 baud.Other speeds apply at higher frequencies. I did not set the rules but am in need of being aware of what i send over the air is legal.
                                  73 Fred N9GUE

                                  --- In oliviadata@yahoogro ups.com, "Gary L. Robinson" <grobin1949@ ...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > I could be mistaken Phil, but I think the baud rate is calculated by
                                  > dividing the bandwidth by the number of tones. So maybe neither of US are
                                  > crazy ...
                                  >
                                  > ---Gary WB8ROL
                                  >
                                  > On 3/27/10, phil williams <ka1gmn@...> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > One in talking in baud and the other is talk in terms of bandwidth and
                                  > > tones.
                                  > >
                                  > > I am trying to figure which one of you is more crazy.
                                  > >
                                  > > philw de ka1gmn
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > On Fri, 2010-03-26 at 23:46 -0400, Gary L. Robinson wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Check out the Olivia specs at
                                  > > > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Olivia_MFSK
                                  > > >
                                  > > > EVEN IF the HF 300 baud limit pertains to digital modes INSIDE the
                                  > > > data segments, and I'm not sure it does or not - the ONLY 3 of the 40
                                  > > > possible combinations that would be in question would be 1000/2,
                                  > > > 2000/2, and 2000/4.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > The other 37, WHICH INCLUDES : 2000/256, 2000/125, 2000/64, 2000/32,
                                  > > > 2000/16, and 2000/8, 1000/256, 1000/128, 1000/64, 1000/32, 1000/16,
                                  > > > 1000/8, and 1000/4 all definitely have a lower baud rate.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > And I don't know ANYONE who has ever used 2 tone Olivia modes since
                                  > > > there does NOT seem to be any speed increase OR other advantage that
                                  > > > is obvious between the 2 and 4 tones versions.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I have ALSO never heard anyone use Olivia 2000/4 on HF either.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > BUT I am still not convinced ANY of the OLIVIA configurations are
                                  > > > illegal on HF but would like to hear what others might think.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > ---Gary WB8ROL
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > On 3/26/10, fred_darrah <cfdarrah@.. .<cfdarrah% 40sbcglobal. net>>
                                  > > wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Gary,
                                  > > > I may be wrong but any digital mode that exceeds 300 baud on
                                  > > > HF is not legal by FCC standards/ Possibly that has changed
                                  > > > but I do not see it in the FCC rules and orders.Please
                                  > > > enlighten me.
                                  > > > 73 Fred N9GUE
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > --- In oliviadata@yahoogro ups.com <oliviadata% 40yahoogroups. com>,
                                  > > "garylinnrobinson"
                                  > > > <grobin1949@ > wrote:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > ALL 40 of the different olivia configurations ARE LEGAL in
                                  > > > the U.S.A.
                                  > > > > Saying there are illegal olivia modes in the U.S.A. is a
                                  > > > FALSEHOOD.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > BTW, beside the FACT that ALL OLIVIA MODES ARE LEGAL in the
                                  > > > U.S.A. I have been QRM'd by tons of people on many many modes
                                  > > > while I've been on many many modes. QRMing other hams
                                  > > > intentionally IS illegal regardless of mode, bandwidth, power,
                                  > > > or any other reason I can think of.
                                  > > > > And NO ONE DIGITAL MODE owns any band segment or sub
                                  > > > segment. It's first come first serve - though many of of us do
                                  > > > honor some voluntary segments.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > but saying some Olivia modes are illegal in the U.S.A. is
                                  > > > NOT TRUE.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > ---Gary WB8ROL
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > --- In oliviadata@yahoogro ups.com <oliviadata% 40yahoogroups. com>,
                                  > > "fred_darrah" <cfdarrah@>
                                  > > > wrote:
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > Gary,
                                  > > > > > Some of the 2000 Olivia modes are not legal in the US. You
                                  > > > can look it up but I think the tones 2,4,8 are not legal plus
                                  > > > use excessive band widths. I observed a 40 meter Olivia QSO
                                  > > > today 7076 on top of JT modes at 1000 width. A little
                                  > > > inconsiderate and excessive on a crowded band.Not all
                                  > > > operators use common sense.
                                  > > > > > 73 Fred N9GUE
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > --- In oliviadata@yahoogro ups.com <oliviadata% 40yahoogroups. com>,
                                  > > Curtis Wright
                                  > > > <cwright1776@ > wrote:
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > Wonderful
                                  > > > > > > Â
                                  > > > > > > (You have told me EXACTLY what I wanted to know.)
                                  > > > > > > Â
                                  > > > > > > It is a mistake to think that a repeater is not a "weak
                                  > > > signal" situation. The club of which I am president has a 2
                                  > > > meter repeater that is nearly ideally suited on a tall tower
                                  > > > in a high place, but we still have spots no more than 2 miles
                                  > > > from the repeater that are very tough to hit. Lots of granite
                                  > > > and geology here. Once you can hit the repeater, no problem,
                                  > > > except when the hospital committee wants to move the EOC into
                                  > > > the bowels of a steel building.
                                  > > > > > > Â
                                  > > > > > > Thank you for the information, it is really helpful.
                                  > > > > > > Â
                                  > > > > > > Curt
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > --- On Thu, 3/18/10, garylinnrobinson <grobin1949@ >
                                  > > > wrote:
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > From: garylinnrobinson <grobin1949@ >
                                  > > > > > > Subject: [olivia] Re: Olivia via repeater
                                  > > > > > > To: oliviadata@yahoogro ups.com <oliviadata% 40yahoogroups. com>

                                  > > > > > > Date: Thursday, March 18, 2010, 3:36 PM
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > Â
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > Curt,
                                  > > > > > > I forgot to answer your question about speed
                                  > > > differences. YES, there are speed differences with ALL the
                                  > > > different Olivia configurations.
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > Standard configurations for Olivia are the following 5
                                  > > > combinations of bandwidth and number of tones that Olivia
                                  > > > uses. Olivia can use any combination of 125,250,500, 1000,and
                                  > > > 2000hz bandwidths with 2,4,8,16,32, 64,128, and 256 tones.
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > These 5 "standard" configurations are just
                                  > > > configurations that are overall best compromise of speed and
                                  > > > ability to get through (robustness) for each of the different
                                  > > > bandwidths.
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > 125/4 -- approx 7wpm
                                  > > > > > > 250/8 -- approx 15wpm
                                  > > > > > > 500/16 -- approx 20wpm
                                  > > > > > > 1000/32 -- approx 25wpm
                                  > > > > > > 2000/64 -- approx 30wpm
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > But that does NOT mean non standard modes are better or
                                  > > > worse OR should NOT used. There are a total of 40 combinations
                                  > > > you can use IF the digital program you use has NOT limited
                                  > > > your choices.
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > 125/2, 125/4, 125/8, 125/16, 125/32, 125/64, 125/128,
                                  > > > 125/256
                                  > > > > > > 250/2, 250/4, 250/8, 250/16, 250/32, 250/64, 250/128,
                                  > > > 250/256
                                  > > > > > > 500/2, 500/4, 500/8, 500/16, 500/32, 500/64, 500/128,
                                  > > > 500/256
                                  > > > > > > 1000/2, 1000/4, 1000/8, 1000/16, 1000/32, 1000/64,
                                  > > > 1000/128, 1000/256
                                  > > > > > > 2000/2, 2000/4, 2000/8, 2000/16, 2000/32, 2000/64,
                                  > > > 2000/128, 2000/256
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > Theoretically the fastest Olivia configuration is the
                                  > > > one with the widest bandwidth and the lowest tones. Though I
                                  > > > have, in the course of testing them, seen NO speed increase
                                  > > > between the 2 tone variations AND the 4 tone variations. But
                                  > > > there is speed differences between the 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128,
                                  > > > and 256 tone configurations within all the different
                                  > > > bandwidths.
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > for example :
                                  > > > > > > 125/2 and 125/4 are the fastest of the 125hz Olivia
                                  > > > speeds. 125/8 is slower, 125/16 slower yet, etc., etc., until
                                  > > > 125/256 is the slowest of all the 125hz modes.
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > 250/2 and 250/4 are the fastest of the 250hz Olivia
                                  > > > speeds. 250/8 is slower, 250/16 slower yet, etc., etc., until
                                  > > > 250/256 is the slowest of all the 250hz modes.
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > And so it goes for all the 5 different bandwidth
                                  > > > choices.
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > ALSO the more WIDE the mode the FASTER it can be
                                  > > > DEPENDING on how many tones are used. It's a little
                                  > > > complicated but makes sense after you get used to it.
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > 125/4 is abt 7wpm
                                  > > > > > > and 250/8 is abt 15wpm
                                  > > > > > > BUT 250/16 is only abt 7 wpm
                                  > > > > > > AND 250/4 is abt 20wpm
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > 500/16 is abt 20wpm
                                  > > > > > > and 500/8 is abt 30wpm
                                  > > > > > > BUT 500/32 is only abt 15wpm
                                  > > > > > > 500/64 is approx 7wpm
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > for each bandwidth if you increase the TONES the speed
                                  > > > decreases. Decrease the tones and the speed increases.
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > However, for each bandwidth if you increase the TONES
                                  > > > the ability to copy well beneath the noise floor INCREASES.
                                  > > > Decrease the TONES and the ability to copy well beneath the
                                  > > > noise floor Decreases.
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > So... theoretically the fastest mode would be 2000/2 -
                                  > > > though in reality I have not measured where there is any speed
                                  > > > increase by going from 4 tone to 2 tone so I THINK the fastest
                                  > > > Olivia is 2000/4 mode. And for VHF FM like you are thinking of
                                  > > > using that would probably be the best mode for traffic
                                  > > > handling with Olivia since the the ability to copy well
                                  > > > beneath the noise floor is not a factor with FM repeaters all
                                  > > > that much,
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > Theoretically the MOST robust mode (the ability to copy
                                  > > > well beneath the noise floor) is 125/256 but it would be
                                  > > > extremely slow - it might make JT65A look speedy hi hi BUT it
                                  > > > still might be useful.
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > There is also the QRM, QRN, polar flutter, and other
                                  > > > things that affect what combination of tones and bandwidths
                                  > > > are best for any given situation.
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > SO ..... THIS may be MORE info than you really need OR
                                  > > > want hi hi
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > Bottom line is that for emcomm stuff speed is important
                                  > > > AND on 2mtr FM being robust is not quite as important as HF.
                                  > > > The faster Olivia modes like 2000/4, 2000/8 or 1000/4 or
                                  > > > 1000/8 depending on which your software supports is desirable.
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > FLDigi currently supports ALL 40 configurations. DM780
                                  > > > v. 5 and MultiPSK have limited their choices and frankly that
                                  > > > bothers me BUT that's the choice THEY have made for their
                                  > > > users.
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > ---Gary WB8ROL
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > --
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Gary L. Robinson
                                  > > > WB8ROL
                                  > > > grobin1949@. .. <grobin1949% 40gmail.com>
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --
                                  >
                                  > Gary L. Robinson
                                  > WB8ROL
                                  > grobin1949@. ..
                                  >





                                  --

                                  Gary L. Robinson
                                  WB8ROL
                                  grobin1949@...
                                • fred_darrah
                                  Hello Gary, Following information for you from ARRL. Hi Fred: For HF operation §97.307 Emission standards sets the allowable rates: (f) The following
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Mar 31, 2010
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Hello Gary,
                                    Following information for you from ARRL.

                                    Hi Fred:

                                    For HF operation §97.307 Emission standards sets the allowable rates:

                                    (f) The following standards and limitations apply to transmissions on the frequencies specified in §97.305(c) of this Part.
                                    (3) Only a RTTY or data emission using a specified digital code listed in §97.309(a) of this Part may be transmitted. The symbol rate must not exceed 300 bauds, or for frequency-shift keying, the frequency shift between mark and space must not exceed 1 kHz.

                                    For 10-meters the allowable rate goes up to 1200 baud.

                                    Any Olivia mode being used on the HF band has to meet that standard.

                                    73


                                    Dan Henderson, N1ND
                                    Regulatory Information Manager
                                    ARRL, the national association for Amateur Radio(tm)
                                    860-594-0236
                                    dhenderson@...

                                    These are the figures for Olivia modes not legal below 28 mhz
                                    1000width 2 tone 500 baud
                                    2000width 2 tone 1000 baud
                                    2000width 4 tone 500 baud
                                    Obviously the Frequency-shift keying does not apply to Olivia.
                                    What people do with this information is up to them.
                                    73 Fred N9UE


                                    --- In oliviadata@yahoogroups.com, "Gary L. Robinson" <grobin1949@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Curtis,
                                    > It is still my opinion that ALL Olivia modes are legal in the U.S.A. And
                                    > it is possible that I am wrong but my understanding of any 1khz restriction
                                    > or 300 baud restriction was for RTTY and FSK modes.
                                    > Olivia is a MFSK mode.
                                    > I would love to hear from ANY real legal experts on this.
                                    > IN any event, using it on VHF is not a problem. And especially on
                                    > repeaters. The width of the FM repeater signal is already larger than 2000
                                    > hz and since only one station at a time may transmit through a repeater
                                    > there is NO problem. The bandwidth of the repeater signal won't be affected
                                    > by using Olivia 2000hz modes.
                                    > As for general use of ANY legal wide modes on HF - In my opinion it is
                                    > not inconsiderate. If a ham uses legal operating procedures it is just as
                                    > considerate as any mode.
                                    > In my opinion, CONTESTS are inconsiderate AND much, if not most, of the
                                    > operation involved during contests is illegal. BUT they are popular and
                                    > even have a magazine.
                                    >
                                    > ---Gary WB8ROL
                                    >
                                    > On 3/30/10, Curtis Wright <cwright1776@...> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > (Since I asked the question that kicked this all off)
                                    > >
                                    > > My question pertained to the emergency use of Olivia via the local 144 MHZ
                                    > > repeater so as to form a 25 mile range network that could transmit text
                                    > > messages
                                    > > from one ICS unified command site to another in real time. The interest in
                                    > > Olivia,
                                    > > rather than PSK-31 or other digital mode was that some of the sites linking
                                    > > into
                                    > > the repeater are marginal for low power FM on simple vertical antennas. I
                                    > > wanted
                                    > > to know if there was enough of a chance that Olivia would work to give it a
                                    > > try.
                                    > >
                                    > > My sense is that BOTH of my more experienced consultants are correct, in
                                    > > that
                                    > > it is inappropriate and may be illegal to use 2 KC of bandwidth in the HF
                                    > > bands
                                    > > in the absence of a real emergency, (also amazingly inconsiderate) but use
                                    > > of wider bandwidths in the VHF bands is less of a problem due to the shorter
                                    > > range of such transmissions and the wider bandwidths available.
                                    > >
                                    > > (But my opinion is uninformed, since I have not given it a try yet.)
                                    > >
                                    > > AA3JE
                                    > >
                                    > > --- On *Sat, 3/27/10, fred_darrah <cfdarrah@...>* wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > From: fred_darrah <cfdarrah@...>
                                    > > Subject: [olivia] Re: Olivia via repeater
                                    > > To: oliviadata@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > Date: Saturday, March 27, 2010, 3:18 PM
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Gary,
                                    > > I never thought you were crazy either. Part 97.69 states below 28 mhz 300
                                    > > baud 28 to 50 1200 baud.Other speeds apply at higher frequencies. I did not
                                    > > set the rules but am in need of being aware of what i send over the air is
                                    > > legal.
                                    > > 73 Fred N9GUE
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In oliviadata@yahoogro ups.com<http://us.mc464.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=oliviadata%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                    > > "Gary L. Robinson" <grobin1949@ ...> wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > I could be mistaken Phil, but I think the baud rate is calculated by
                                    > > > dividing the bandwidth by the number of tones. So maybe neither of US are
                                    > > > crazy ...
                                    > > >
                                    > > > ---Gary WB8ROL
                                    > > >
                                    > > > On 3/27/10, phil williams <ka1gmn@> wrote:
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > One in talking in baud and the other is talk in terms of bandwidth and
                                    > > > > tones.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > I am trying to figure which one of you is more crazy.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > philw de ka1gmn
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > On Fri, 2010-03-26 at 23:46 -0400, Gary L. Robinson wrote:
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Check out the Olivia specs at
                                    > > > > > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Olivia_MFSK<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olivia_MFSK>
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > EVEN IF the HF 300 baud limit pertains to digital modes INSIDE the
                                    > > > > > data segments, and I'm not sure it does or not - the ONLY 3 of the 40
                                    > > > > > possible combinations that would be in question would be 1000/2,
                                    > > > > > 2000/2, and 2000/4.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > The other 37, WHICH INCLUDES : 2000/256, 2000/125, 2000/64, 2000/32,
                                    > > > > > 2000/16, and 2000/8, 1000/256, 1000/128, 1000/64, 1000/32, 1000/16,
                                    > > > > > 1000/8, and 1000/4 all definitely have a lower baud rate.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > And I don't know ANYONE who has ever used 2 tone Olivia modes since
                                    > > > > > there does NOT seem to be any speed increase OR other advantage that
                                    > > > > > is obvious between the 2 and 4 tones versions.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > I have ALSO never heard anyone use Olivia 2000/4 on HF either.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > BUT I am still not convinced ANY of the OLIVIA configurations are
                                    > > > > > illegal on HF but would like to hear what others might think.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > ---Gary WB8ROL
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > On 3/26/10, fred_darrah <cfdarrah@ .<cfdarrah% 40sbcglobal. net>>
                                    > > > > wrote:
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Gary,
                                    > > > > > I may be wrong but any digital mode that exceeds 300 baud on
                                    > > > > > HF is not legal by FCC standards/ Possibly that has changed
                                    > > > > > but I do not see it in the FCC rules and orders.Please
                                    > > > > > enlighten me.
                                    > > > > > 73 Fred N9GUE
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > --- In oliviadata@yahoogro ups.com<http://us.mc464.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=oliviadata%40yahoogroups.com><oliviadata% 40yahoogroups. com>,
                                    > > > > "garylinnrobinson"
                                    > > > > > <grobin1949@ > wrote:
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > ALL 40 of the different olivia configurations ARE LEGAL in
                                    > > > > > the U.S.A.
                                    > > > > > > Saying there are illegal olivia modes in the U.S.A. is a
                                    > > > > > FALSEHOOD.
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > BTW, beside the FACT that ALL OLIVIA MODES ARE LEGAL in the
                                    > > > > > U.S.A. I have been QRM'd by tons of people on many many modes
                                    > > > > > while I've been on many many modes. QRMing other hams
                                    > > > > > intentionally IS illegal regardless of mode, bandwidth, power,
                                    > > > > > or any other reason I can think of.
                                    > > > > > > And NO ONE DIGITAL MODE owns any band segment or sub
                                    > > > > > segment. It's first come first serve - though many of of us do
                                    > > > > > honor some voluntary segments.
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > but saying some Olivia modes are illegal in the U.S.A. is
                                    > > > > > NOT TRUE.
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > ---Gary WB8ROL
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > --- In oliviadata@yahoogro ups.com<http://us.mc464.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=oliviadata%40yahoogroups.com><oliviadata% 40yahoogroups. com>,
                                    > > > > "fred_darrah" <cfdarrah@>
                                    > > > > > wrote:
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > Gary,
                                    > > > > > > > Some of the 2000 Olivia modes are not legal in the US. You
                                    > > > > > can look it up but I think the tones 2,4,8 are not legal plus
                                    > > > > > use excessive band widths. I observed a 40 meter Olivia QSO
                                    > > > > > today 7076 on top of JT modes at 1000 width. A little
                                    > > > > > inconsiderate and excessive on a crowded band.Not all
                                    > > > > > operators use common sense.
                                    > > > > > > > 73 Fred N9GUE
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > --- In oliviadata@yahoogro ups.com<http://us.mc464.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=oliviadata%40yahoogroups.com><oliviadata% 40yahoogroups. com>,
                                    > > > > Curtis Wright
                                    > > > > > <cwright1776@ > wrote:
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > Wonderful
                                    > > > > > > > > Â
                                    > > > > > > > > (You have told me EXACTLY what I wanted to know.)
                                    > > > > > > > > Â
                                    > > > > > > > > It is a mistake to think that a repeater is not a "weak
                                    > > > > > signal" situation. The club of which I am president has a 2
                                    > > > > > meter repeater that is nearly ideally suited on a tall tower
                                    > > > > > in a high place, but we still have spots no more than 2 miles
                                    > > > > > from the repeater that are very tough to hit. Lots of granite
                                    > > > > > and geology here. Once you can hit the repeater, no problem,
                                    > > > > > except when the hospital committee wants to move the EOC into
                                    > > > > > the bowels of a steel building.
                                    > > > > > > > > Â
                                    > > > > > > > > Thank you for the information, it is really helpful.
                                    > > > > > > > > Â
                                    > > > > > > > > Curt
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > --- On Thu, 3/18/10, garylinnrobinson <grobin1949@ >
                                    > > > > > wrote:
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > From: garylinnrobinson <grobin1949@ >
                                    > > > > > > > > Subject: [olivia] Re: Olivia via repeater
                                    > > > > > > > > To: oliviadata@yahoogro ups.com<http://us.mc464.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=oliviadata%40yahoogroups.com><oliviadata% 40yahoogroups. com>
                                    > >
                                    > > > > > > > > Date: Thursday, March 18, 2010, 3:36 PM
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > Â
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > Curt,
                                    > > > > > > > > I forgot to answer your question about speed
                                    > > > > > differences. YES, there are speed differences with ALL the
                                    > > > > > different Olivia configurations.
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > Standard configurations for Olivia are the following 5
                                    > > > > > combinations of bandwidth and number of tones that Olivia
                                    > > > > > uses. Olivia can use any combination of 125,250,500, 1000,and
                                    > > > > > 2000hz bandwidths with 2,4,8,16,32, 64,128, and 256 tones.
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > These 5 "standard" configurations are just
                                    > > > > > configurations that are overall best compromise of speed and
                                    > > > > > ability to get through (robustness) for each of the different
                                    > > > > > bandwidths.
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > 125/4 -- approx 7wpm
                                    > > > > > > > > 250/8 -- approx 15wpm
                                    > > > > > > > > 500/16 -- approx 20wpm
                                    > > > > > > > > 1000/32 -- approx 25wpm
                                    > > > > > > > > 2000/64 -- approx 30wpm
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > But that does NOT mean non standard modes are better or
                                    > > > > > worse OR should NOT used. There are a total of 40 combinations
                                    > > > > > you can use IF the digital program you use has NOT limited
                                    > > > > > your choices.
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > 125/2, 125/4, 125/8, 125/16, 125/32, 125/64, 125/128,
                                    > > > > > 125/256
                                    > > > > > > > > 250/2, 250/4, 250/8, 250/16, 250/32, 250/64, 250/128,
                                    > > > > > 250/256
                                    > > > > > > > > 500/2, 500/4, 500/8, 500/16, 500/32, 500/64, 500/128,
                                    > > > > > 500/256
                                    > > > > > > > > 1000/2, 1000/4, 1000/8, 1000/16, 1000/32, 1000/64,
                                    > > > > > 1000/128, 1000/256
                                    > > > > > > > > 2000/2, 2000/4, 2000/8, 2000/16, 2000/32, 2000/64,
                                    > > > > > 2000/128, 2000/256
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > Theoretically the fastest Olivia configuration is the
                                    > > > > > one with the widest bandwidth and the lowest tones. Though I
                                    > > > > > have, in the course of testing them, seen NO speed increase
                                    > > > > > between the 2 tone variations AND the 4 tone variations. But
                                    > > > > > there is speed differences between the 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128,
                                    > > > > > and 256 tone configurations within all the different
                                    > > > > > bandwidths.
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > for example :
                                    > > > > > > > > 125/2 and 125/4 are the fastest of the 125hz Olivia
                                    > > > > > speeds. 125/8 is slower, 125/16 slower yet, etc., etc., until
                                    > > > > > 125/256 is the slowest of all the 125hz modes.
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > 250/2 and 250/4 are the fastest of the 250hz Olivia
                                    > > > > > speeds. 250/8 is slower, 250/16 slower yet, etc., etc., until
                                    > > > > > 250/256 is the slowest of all the 250hz modes.
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > And so it goes for all the 5 different bandwidth
                                    > > > > > choices.
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > ALSO the more WIDE the mode the FASTER it can be
                                    > > > > > DEPENDING on how many tones are used. It's a little
                                    > > > > > complicated but makes sense after you get used to it.
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > 125/4 is abt 7wpm
                                    > > > > > > > > and 250/8 is abt 15wpm
                                    > > > > > > > > BUT 250/16 is only abt 7 wpm
                                    > > > > > > > > AND 250/4 is abt 20wpm
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > 500/16 is abt 20wpm
                                    > > > > > > > > and 500/8 is abt 30wpm
                                    > > > > > > > > BUT 500/32 is only abt 15wpm
                                    > > > > > > > > 500/64 is approx 7wpm
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > for each bandwidth if you increase the TONES the speed
                                    > > > > > decreases. Decrease the tones and the speed increases.
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > However, for each bandwidth if you increase the TONES
                                    > > > > > the ability to copy well beneath the noise floor INCREASES.
                                    > > > > > Decrease the TONES and the ability to copy well beneath the
                                    > > > > > noise floor Decreases.
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > So... theoretically the fastest mode would be 2000/2 -
                                    > > > > > though in reality I have not measured where there is any speed
                                    > > > > > increase by going from 4 tone to 2 tone so I THINK the fastest
                                    > > > > > Olivia is 2000/4 mode. And for VHF FM like you are thinking of
                                    > > > > > using that would probably be the best mode for traffic
                                    > > > > > handling with Olivia since the the ability to copy well
                                    > > > > > beneath the noise floor is not a factor with FM repeaters all
                                    > > > > > that much,
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > Theoretically the MOST robust mode (the ability to copy
                                    > > > > > well beneath the noise floor) is 125/256 but it would be
                                    > > > > > extremely slow - it might make JT65A look speedy hi hi BUT it
                                    > > > > > still might be useful.
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > There is also the QRM, QRN, polar flutter, and other
                                    > > > > > things that affect what combination of tones and bandwidths
                                    > > > > > are best for any given situation.
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > SO ..... THIS may be MORE info than you really need OR
                                    > > > > > want hi hi
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > Bottom line is that for emcomm stuff speed is important
                                    > > > > > AND on 2mtr FM being robust is not quite as important as HF.
                                    > > > > > The faster Olivia modes like 2000/4, 2000/8 or 1000/4 or
                                    > > > > > 1000/8 depending on which your software supports is desirable.
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > FLDigi currently supports ALL 40 configurations. DM780
                                    > > > > > v. 5 and MultiPSK have limited their choices and frankly that
                                    > > > > > bothers me BUT that's the choice THEY have made for their
                                    > > > > > users.
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > ---Gary WB8ROL
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > >
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                                    > > > > > --
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Gary L. Robinson
                                    > > > > > WB8ROL
                                    > > > > > grobin1949@ .. <grobin1949% 40gmail.com>
                                    > > > > >
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                                    > > > --
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Gary L. Robinson
                                    > > > WB8ROL
                                    > > > grobin1949@ ..
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
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                                    > --
                                    >
                                    > Gary L. Robinson
                                    > WB8ROL
                                    > grobin1949@...
                                    >
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