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Re: [olivia] Olivia 250/4 mode ...

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  • Karl F. Larsen
    I have to admit fldigi is a whole lot better for setting up odd modes of operation. I find 250 is not a mode the author thinks we want to use. But it is easy
    Message 1 of 16 , Jun 4, 2009
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      I have to admit fldigi is a whole lot better for setting up odd
      modes of operation. I find 250 is not a mode the author thinks we want
      to use. But it is easy to set up. I have changed the RX sync intgration
      period to 8 like the others of you are using. I will try to get on the
      air on 20 meters this evening.

      73 Karl K5DI






      Warren Moxley wrote:
      > Are there real numbers that specify the db gain going from 4 to 8 and the amount of time it adds from 4 to 8?
      >
      > Warren - K5WGM
      >
      >
      > --- On Thu, 6/4/09, Simon (HB9DRV) <simon.brown@...> wrote:
      >
      > From: Simon (HB9DRV) <simon.brown@...>
      > Subject: Re: [olivia] Olivia 250/4 mode ...
      > To: oliviadata@yahoogroups.com
      > Date: Thursday, June 4, 2009, 3:05 PM
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      > The greater the number the better the error
      > correction. Downside is that it takes longer to display the text.
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      > Simon Brown, HB9DRV
      > www.ham-radio- deluxe.com
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From:
      > Warren Moxley
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      > Not having modified the Sync Integration Period I did not
      > know what it does. I noticed that it is set to 4. What is the effect of
      > changing it to 8? That is what is the advantages(pros) and what are the
      > disadvantages( cons)?
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      --

      Karl F. Larsen, AKA K5DI
      Linux User
      #450462 http://counter.li.org
      PGP 4208 4D6E 595F 22B9 FF1C ECB6 4A3C 2C54 FE23 53A7
    • Karl F. Larsen
      Well gang I got my radio the Yeasu FT-450 set up to do data and it seems to be doing so well. I run about 10 watts of average power. The fldigi seems to be
      Message 2 of 16 , Jun 4, 2009
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        Well gang I got my radio the Yeasu FT-450 set up to do data and it
        seems to be doing so well. I run about 10 watts of average power. The
        fldigi seems to be putting out 250/4 Olivia so please if you know tell
        me when in UTC time and where on 20 meters to try and make a contact.
        Thank you!

        73 karl k5di





        Warren Moxley wrote:
        > Are there real numbers that specify the db gain going from 4 to 8 and the amount of time it adds from 4 to 8?
        >
        > Warren - K5WGM
        >
        >
        > --- On Thu, 6/4/09, Simon (HB9DRV) <simon.brown@...> wrote:
        >
        > From: Simon (HB9DRV) <simon.brown@...>
        > Subject: Re: [olivia] Olivia 250/4 mode ...
        > To: oliviadata@yahoogroups.com
        > Date: Thursday, June 4, 2009, 3:05 PM
        >
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        > The greater the number the better the error
        > correction. Downside is that it takes longer to display the text.
        >
        > Simon Brown, HB9DRV
        > www.ham-radio- deluxe.com
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From:
        > Warren Moxley
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Not having modified the Sync Integration Period I did not
        > know what it does. I noticed that it is set to 4. What is the effect of
        > changing it to 8? That is what is the advantages(pros) and what are the
        > disadvantages( cons)?
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        --

        Karl F. Larsen, AKA K5DI
        Linux User
        #450462 http://counter.li.org
        PGP 4208 4D6E 595F 22B9 FF1C ECB6 4A3C 2C54 FE23 53A7
      • Simon (HB9DRV)
        I ve just seen PD2RPS on ~ 14.074 - and don t forget to engage RSID in both TX and RX! I may hear you - band is nicely opening up at the moment but there s a
        Message 3 of 16 , Jun 4, 2009
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          I've just seen PD2RPS on ~ 14.074 - and don't forget to engage RSID in both
          TX and RX!

          I may hear you - band is nicely opening up at the moment but there's a big
          lump of rock between myself and NA.

          Simon Brown, HB9DRV
          www.ham-radio-deluxe.com

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Karl F. Larsen" <klarsen1@...>


          > Well gang I got my radio the Yeasu FT-450 set up to do data and it
          > seems to be doing so well. I run about 10 watts of average power. The
          > fldigi seems to be putting out 250/4 Olivia so please if you know tell
          > me when in UTC time and where on 20 meters to try and make a contact.
          > Thank you!
        • garylinnrobinson
          I usually run about 8 on the Sync Integration when I run the faster non standard modes like 250/4, 500/4, 500/8, 1000/8, and 1000/16. It results in
          Message 4 of 16 , Jun 4, 2009
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            I usually run about 8 on the Sync Integration when I run the "faster" non standard modes like 250/4, 500/4, 500/8, 1000/8, and 1000/16. It results in significantly better cpy on a very weak signal that you are missing some of the text on with a lower reading.

            On standard modes (125/4, 250/8, 500/16, 1000/32) I usually set mine at about 4

            With a setting of 4 on standard modes and 8 on the "faster" non standard modes the DELAY is about the same. I would NOT leave Sync Integration on 8 while using the standard modes, though, because the delay is too long and there is little benefit in my opinion.

            But increasing it on the faster non standard modes does help copy a lot going from 4 to 8.

            That may or may not be different in other programs but seems to be the case with FLDigi from my operating experience.

            --- In oliviadata@yahoogroups.com, Warren Moxley <k5wgm@...> wrote:
            >
            > Not having modified the Sync Integration Period I did not know what it does.. I noticed that it is set to 4. What is the effect of changing it to 8? That is what is the advantages(pros) and what are the disadvantages(cons)?
            >
            > Warren - K5WGM
            >
            >
            > --- On Thu, 6/4/09, garylinnrobinson <grobin1949@...> wrote:
            >
            > From: garylinnrobinson <grobin1949@...>
            > Subject: [olivia] Olivia 250/4 mode ...
            > To: oliviadata@yahoogroups.com
            > Date: Thursday, June 4, 2009, 2:16 PM
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            > Over the last year and a half I have use quite a few different formats of the Olivia digital mode and have really gotten to like the 250/4 mode. It is half the bandwidth of the standard 500/16 mode and the same speed - approx. 19.6 wpm
            >
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            > If you use this mode in FLDigi and set the Sync Integration Period at approx 7-8 in the settings dialog - it performs very very close to the performance of 500/16 as far reading below the noise level.
            >
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            > Same for HRD DM780 if you set the Sync Int. to High
            >
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            > Not sure if MixW or MultiPSK has settings for Sync Int. period.
            >
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            > It is an excellent choice for crowded band condx which I have seen on 80m during the last winter. I expect that IF Cycle 24 ever wakes up from it's coma and band condx improve in the next few years - 250/4 might be useful on 20mtrs and other bands too.
            >
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            > Just food for thought when and IF the bands ever get real crowded.
            >
          • Stu Bryant
            So do these changes require that both stations in a QSO have the same settings- or will changing my end affect the other? Curious about compatibility issues
            Message 5 of 16 , Jun 6, 2009
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              So do these changes require that both stations in a QSO have the same settings- or will changing my end affect the other? Curious about compatibility issues being induced.

              Stu AF6IT

              --- In oliviadata@yahoogroups.com, "garylinnrobinson" <grobin1949@...> wrote:
              >
              > I usually run about 8 on the Sync Integration when I run the "faster" non standard modes like 250/4, 500/4, 500/8, 1000/8, and 1000/16. It results in significantly better cpy on a very weak signal that you are missing some of the text on with a lower reading.
              >
              > On standard modes (125/4, 250/8, 500/16, 1000/32) I usually set mine at about 4
              >
              > With a setting of 4 on standard modes and 8 on the "faster" non standard modes the DELAY is about the same. I would NOT leave Sync Integration on 8 while using the standard modes, though, because the delay is too long and there is little benefit in my opinion.
              >
              > But increasing it on the faster non standard modes does help copy a lot going from 4 to 8.
              >
              > That may or may not be different in other programs but seems to be the case with FLDigi from my operating experience.
              >
            • Rick Westerfield
              Both stations must have identical link parameters or all is lost. Stick with the common settings and you will usually be Ok but there will always be a few
              Message 6 of 16 , Jun 7, 2009
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                Both stations must have identical link parameters or all is lost. Stick with the common settings and you will usually be Ok but there will always be a few signals you will not be able to decode.

                Rick - KH2DF

                Sent from my iPhone

                On Jun 6, 2009, at 11:17 PM, "Stu Bryant" <af6it@...> wrote:

                So do these changes require that both stations in a QSO have the same settings- or will changing my end affect the other? Curious about compatibility issues being induced.

                Stu AF6IT

                --- In oliviadata@yahoogro ups.com, "garylinnrobinson" <grobin1949@ ...> wrote:
                >
                > I usually run about 8 on the Sync Integration when I run the "faster" non standard modes like 250/4, 500/4, 500/8, 1000/8, and 1000/16. It results in significantly better cpy on a very weak signal that you are missing some of the text on with a lower reading.
                >
                > On standard modes (125/4, 250/8, 500/16, 1000/32) I usually set mine at about 4
                >
                > With a setting of 4 on standard modes and 8 on the "faster" non standard modes the DELAY is about the same. I would NOT leave Sync Integration on 8 while using the standard modes, though, because the delay is too long and there is little benefit in my opinion.
                >
                > But increasing it on the faster non standard modes does help copy a lot going from 4 to 8.
                >
                > That may or may not be different in other programs but seems to be the case with FLDigi from my operating experience.
                >

              • garylinnrobinson
                ABSOLUTELY NOT! Both Stations do NOT have to have the Same Sync Integration Settings. If course, BOTH must have 250hz bandwith and 4 tones to talk to each
                Message 7 of 16 , Jun 7, 2009
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                  ABSOLUTELY NOT! Both Stations do NOT have to have the Same Sync Integration Settings. If course, BOTH must have 250hz bandwith and 4 tones to talk to each other in 250/4 mode BUT DO NOT have to have the same Sync Integration Period and Search Tune Margin settings.

                  Yes, there will always be Olivia signals that are so weak you won't be able to decode BUT THERE WILL BE MANY MORE if you just pick one settings and leave it there.

                  Do that if you want to BUT you will be under utilizing the mode. And short changing yourself.



                  --- In oliviadata@yahoogroups.com, Rick Westerfield <r_lwesterfield@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Both stations must have identical link parameters or all is lost. Stick with the common settings and you will usually be Ok but there will always be a few signals you will not be able to decode.
                  >
                  > Rick - KH2DF
                  >
                  > Sent from my iPhone
                  >
                  > On Jun 6, 2009, at 11:17 PM, "Stu Bryant" <af6it@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > So do these changes require that both stations in a QSO have the same settings- or will changing my end affect the other? Curious about compatibility issues being induced.
                  >
                  > Stu AF6IT
                  >
                  > --- In oliviadata@yahoogroups.com, "garylinnrobinson" <grobin1949@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > I usually run about 8 on the Sync Integration when I run the "faster" non standard modes like 250/4, 500/4, 500/8, 1000/8, and 1000/16. It results in significantly better cpy on a very weak signal that you are missing some of the text on with a lower reading.
                  > >
                  > > On standard modes (125/4, 250/8, 500/16, 1000/32) I usually set mine at about 4
                  > >
                  > > With a setting of 4 on standard modes and 8 on the "faster" non standard modes the DELAY is about the same. I would NOT leave Sync Integration on 8 while using the standard modes, though, because the delay is too long and there is little benefit in my opinion.
                  > >
                  > > But increasing it on the faster non standard modes does help copy a lot going from 4 to 8.
                  > >
                  > > That may or may not be different in other programs but seems to be the case with FLDigi from my operating experience.
                  > >
                  >
                • Rick Westerfield
                  This proliferation of mode parameters that are different from standard may not be worth the aggravation to the rest of us when you call CQ. Please
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jun 7, 2009
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                    This proliferation of mode parameters that are "different" from "standard" may not be worth the aggravation to the rest of us when you call CQ. Please understand, I absolutely love the Olivia mode!! I guess this is why so many hams cling to PSK31 and RTTY . . . simple, easy, no muss, no fuss.

                    Rick - KH2DF

                    Sent from my iPhone

                    On Jun 7, 2009, at 9:25 AM, "garylinnrobinson" <grobin1949@...> wrote:

                    ABSOLUTELY NOT! Both Stations do NOT have to have the Same Sync Integration Settings. If course, BOTH must have 250hz bandwith and 4 tones to talk to each other in 250/4 mode BUT DO NOT have to have the same Sync Integration Period and Search Tune Margin settings.

                    Yes, there will always be Olivia signals that are so weak you won't be able to decode BUT THERE WILL BE MANY MORE if you just pick one settings and leave it there.

                    Do that if you want to BUT you will be under utilizing the mode. And short changing yourself.


                    --- In oliviadata@yahoogro ups.com, Rick Westerfield <r_lwesterfield@ ...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Both stations must have identical link parameters or all is lost. Stick with the common settings and you will usually be Ok but there will always be a few signals you will not be able to decode.
                    >
                    > Rick - KH2DF
                    >
                    > Sent from my iPhone
                    >
                    > On Jun 6, 2009, at 11:17 PM, "Stu Bryant" <af6it@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > So do these changes require that both stations in a QSO have the same settings- or will changing my end affect the other? Curious about compatibility issues being induced.
                    >
                    > Stu AF6IT
                    >
                    > --- In oliviadata@yahoogro ups.com, "garylinnrobinson" <grobin1949@ > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > I usually run about 8 on the Sync Integration when I run the "faster" non standard modes like 250/4, 500/4, 500/8, 1000/8, and 1000/16. It results in significantly better cpy on a very weak signal that you are missing some of the text on with a lower reading.
                    > >
                    > > On standard modes (125/4, 250/8, 500/16, 1000/32) I usually set mine at about 4
                    > >
                    > > With a setting of 4 on standard modes and 8 on the "faster" non standard modes the DELAY is about the same. I would NOT leave Sync Integration on 8 while using the standard modes, though, because the delay is too long and there is little benefit in my opinion.
                    > >
                    > > But increasing it on the faster non standard modes does help copy a lot going from 4 to 8.
                    > >
                    > > That may or may not be different in other programs but seems to be the case with FLDigi from my operating experience.
                    > >
                    >

                  • Simon (HB9DRV)
                    Patrick (MultiPSK) has designed something called RSID which is in current fldigi releases and will be in the HRD/DM780 5.0 betas (July 2009). When enabled a ~2
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jun 7, 2009
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                      Patrick (MultiPSK) has designed something called RSID which is in current fldigi releases and will be in the HRD/DM780 5.0 betas (July 2009).
                       
                      When enabled a ~2 second ID is sent before the transmission, this identifies the mode being used, making it much easier to use 'exotic' modes such as Olivia.
                       
                      So I expect this to be widely used by fldigi / MultiPSK / DM780 by the end of 2009. Sadly MixW doesn't seem to be actively developed any longer (I could be - and probably am wrong).
                       
                      Add this to cheap and cheerful SDR receivers and we'll all be rocking.
                       
                      Simon Brown, HB9DRV
                      www.ham-radio-deluxe.com
                      ----- Original Message -----
                       
                      This proliferation of mode parameters that are "different" from "standard" may not be worth the aggravation to the rest of us when you call CQ. Please understand, I absolutely love the Olivia mode!! I guess this is why so many hams cling to PSK31 and RTTY . . . simple, easy, no muss, no fuss.
                       
                    • garylinnrobinson
                      I m not sure exactly what you mean by This proliferation of mode parameters but Olivia has 40 different Tone/Bandwidth formats - Some are referred to
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jun 7, 2009
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                        I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "This proliferation of mode parameters" but Olivia has 40 different Tone/Bandwidth formats - Some are referred to standard and most are not. This does NOT mean that the "non-standard" formats shouldn't be used or that the author of Olivia would not approve. It is just a fact that it can be configured 40 different way and all 40 of them have their strengths and weaknesses.

                        I mentioned 250/4 format originally because I felt that it is a valuable under used Olivia format. It's very close to being just as good as 500/16 mode and takes up half the band width. It is also the same speed as 500/16. It could be EXTREMELY useful to us Olivia users WHEN the bands get really crowded and space is at a premium.

                        To get the maximum performance you should be aware of the Sync Integration Period setting and how it can affect decoding weak signals. If a user has his setting on a 4 while using 500/16 and he switches to 250/4 and leaves it there he may come to the conclusion that this format is NOT that good - which would be a shame because if he increased it to 8 it would make a significant difference.

                        If the same user sets the Sync Integration Period setting to 8 and leaves it there he would be OK most of the time BUT he might find the DELAY factor (time it takes to start decoding an Olivia signal once you click on it) to be a lot longer than desired and irritating on 500/16 mode.

                        So, for some, it would be advantageous to just change the setting when you change the format.

                        There is NO compatibility issue. The Sync Integration Period setting is a parameter used in DECODING the incoming signal. It has nothing to do with the ENCODING of the signal you send out in transmit mode. The OTHER station does NOT have to have the same Sync Integration Period setting - but could benefit if he had it set properly and your signal was extremely weak on his receiver.

                        There's nothing wrong if a lot of folks don't care about using other Olivia formats BUT many of us want to get top performance and be good neighbors on the bands - and it takes little effort to do it.

                        Your response to the previous post that asked about incompatibility issues was : "Both stations must have identical link parameters or all is lost. Stick with the common settings and you will usually be Ok but there will always be a few signals you will not be able to decode."

                        I'm not sure exactly what you meant BUT with Olivia mode - for 2 stations to copy each other they both need the same bandwidth format AND the same tone format. They do NOT both have to use the same DECODING settings such as Sync Integration Period and Search Tune Margin.

                        This is not that difficult to understand and Olivia is not that difficult to use. As for the reasons why PSK and RTTY are the most popular modes - we could debate that all night and day BUT I sincerely doubt that it is entirely OR mainly because the MODES are simple.

                        As far as "no muss, no fuss" - anyone can just get only on 500/16 and never touch a setting. But many, if not most, of the rest of us want to get all the performance that we can.

                        BTW, one of the most popular, if not THE most popular, Olivia formats is the 500/8 - which IS a NON standard format. And, it too, will benefit if you run a higher Sync Integration Period setting than usual.

                        ---Gary WB8ROL

                        --- In oliviadata@yahoogroups.com, Rick Westerfield <r_lwesterfield@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > This proliferation of mode parameters that are "different" from "standard" may not be worth the aggravation to the rest of us when you call CQ. Please understand, I absolutely love the Olivia mode!! I guess this is why so many hams cling to PSK31 and RTTY . . . simple, easy, no muss, no fuss.
                        >
                        > Rick - KH2DF
                        >
                        > Sent from my iPhone
                        >
                        > On Jun 7, 2009, at 9:25 AM, "garylinnrobinson" <grobin1949@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ABSOLUTELY NOT! Both Stations do NOT have to have the Same Sync Integration Settings. If course, BOTH must have 250hz bandwith and 4 tones to talk to each other in 250/4 mode BUT DO NOT have to have the same Sync Integration Period and Search Tune Margin settings.
                        >
                        > Yes, there will always be Olivia signals that are so weak you won't be able to decode BUT THERE WILL BE MANY MORE if you just pick one settings and leave it there.
                        >
                        > Do that if you want to BUT you will be under utilizing the mode. And short changing yourself.
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In oliviadata@yahoogroups.com, Rick Westerfield <r_lwesterfield@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Both stations must have identical link parameters or all is lost. Stick with the common settings and you will usually be Ok but there will always be a few signals you will not be able to decode.
                        > >
                        > > Rick - KH2DF
                        > >
                        > > Sent from my iPhone
                        > >
                        > > On Jun 6, 2009, at 11:17 PM, "Stu Bryant" <af6it@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > So do these changes require that both stations in a QSO have the same settings- or will changing my end affect the other? Curious about compatibility issues being induced.
                        > >
                        > > Stu AF6IT
                        > >
                        > > --- In oliviadata@yahoogroups.com, "garylinnrobinson" <grobin1949@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > I usually run about 8 on the Sync Integration when I run the "faster" non standard modes like 250/4, 500/4, 500/8, 1000/8, and 1000/16. It results in significantly better cpy on a very weak signal that you are missing some of the text on with a lower reading.
                        > > >
                        > > > On standard modes (125/4, 250/8, 500/16, 1000/32) I usually set mine at about 4
                        > > >
                        > > > With a setting of 4 on standard modes and 8 on the "faster" non standard modes the DELAY is about the same. I would NOT leave Sync Integration on 8 while using the standard modes, though, because the delay is too long and there is little benefit in my opinion.
                        > > >
                        > > > But increasing it on the faster non standard modes does help copy a lot going from 4 to 8.
                        > > >
                        > > > That may or may not be different in other programs but seems to be the case with FLDigi from my operating experience.
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
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