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Olivia as ARQ mode?

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  • dougdb123
    just a thought but it seems like oliva could make a great ARQ (linked) mode like pactor or packet. olivia is much more robust and has about the same bandwidth
    Message 1 of 10 , May 20 8:22 AM
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      just a thought but it seems like oliva could make a great ARQ (linked) mode like pactor or packet. olivia is much more robust and has about the same bandwidth as pactor depending on the choice of olivia submode. olivia does have a slower baud rate but it would still do a great job sending "HF mail" or for ragchewing. olivia already uses standard size 2.048sec slots for each 64bit FEC block during transmission, it seems like it would be easy enough to adapt this into an ARQ protocol. i admit i dont know a whole lot about how to go about building a TNC or program for a new protocol but it seems like olivia's modulation and especially robust coding would make this a this a great ARQ protocol for amatuer use.

      Doug-KB1MHD
    • Warren Moxley
      Doug, I Love Olivia and use it alot, but No, Olivia is not a good mode for ARQ but PSK125 is. The reason after a lot of testing is that the FEC in Olivia has
      Message 2 of 10 , May 20 10:52 AM
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        Doug,

        I Love Olivia and use it alot, but No, Olivia is not a good mode for ARQ but PSK125 is. The reason after a lot of testing is that the FEC in Olivia has to long a turn-a-round time / Delay. PSK125 is already being used for PSKMail and works great with flarq and fldigi. The reason the packets are very short and any errors don't have time to corrupt If it does it very fast to re-send them. FLDigi is used for many modes including all of the PSK's and all of the Olivia's.

        Check it out.
        http://pskmail.wikispaces.com/preferred+mode
        http://www.w1hkj.com/Fldigi.html


        Warren - K5WGM

        --- On Wed, 5/20/09, dougdb123 <dougdb123@...> wrote:

        From: dougdb123 <dougdb123@...>
        Subject: [olivia] Olivia as ARQ mode?
        To: oliviadata@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 10:22 AM

        just a thought but it seems like oliva could make a great ARQ (linked) mode like pactor or packet. olivia is much more robust and has about the same bandwidth as pactor depending on the choice of olivia submode. olivia does have a slower baud rate but it would still do a great job sending "HF mail" or for ragchewing. olivia already uses standard size 2.048sec slots for each 64bit FEC block during transmission, it seems like it would be easy enough to adapt this into an ARQ protocol. i admit i dont know a whole lot about how to go about building a TNC or program for a new protocol but it seems like olivia's modulation and especially robust coding would make this a this a great ARQ protocol for amatuer use.

        Doug-KB1MHD


      • dl8le
        Warren, you need a good S/N - ratio to be happy with PSK125 whereas Olivia and other modes are much more robust,i.e. they will not require as many repetitions
        Message 3 of 10 , May 21 8:59 AM
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          Warren,

          you need a good S/N - ratio to be happy with PSK125 whereas Olivia and other modes are much more robust,i.e. they will not require as many repetitions as PSK125 if conditions are modest or poor.

          73

          Juergen, DL8LE

          --- In oliviadata@yahoogroups.com, Warren Moxley <k5wgm@...> wrote:
          >
          > Doug,
          >
          > I Love Olivia and use it alot, but No, Olivia is not a good mode for ARQ but PSK125 is. The reason after a lot of testing is that the FEC in Olivia has to long a turn-a-round time / Delay. PSK125 is already being used for PSKMail and works great with flarq and fldigi. The reason the packets are very short and any errors don't have time to corrupt If it does it very fast to re-send them. FLDigi is used for many modes including all of the PSK's and all of the Olivia's.
          >
          > Check it out.
          > http://pskmail.wikispaces.com/preferred+mode
          > http://www.w1hkj.com/Fldigi.html
          >
          >
          > Warren - K5WGM
          >
          > --- On Wed, 5/20/09, dougdb123 <dougdb123@...> wrote:
          >
          > From: dougdb123 <dougdb123@...>
          > Subject: [olivia] Olivia as ARQ mode?
          > To: oliviadata@yahoogroups.com
          > Date: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 10:22 AM
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          > just a thought but it seems like oliva could make a great ARQ (linked) mode like pactor or packet. olivia is much more robust and has about the same bandwidth as pactor depending on the choice of olivia submode. olivia does have a slower baud rate but it would still do a great job sending "HF mail" or for ragchewing. olivia already uses standard size 2.048sec slots for each 64bit FEC block during transmission, it seems like it would be easy enough to adapt this into an ARQ protocol. i admit i dont know a whole lot about how to go about building a TNC or program for a new protocol but it seems like olivia's modulation and especially robust coding would make this a this a great ARQ protocol for amatuer use.
          >
          >
          >
          > Doug-KB1MHD
          >
        • Warren Moxley
          Juergen, I am not sure what your point is. The main reason Olivia works well is because of FEC and many options to control the bandwidth and tones to meet band
          Message 4 of 10 , May 21 1:07 PM
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            Juergen,

            I am not sure what your point is.

            The main reason Olivia works well is because of FEC and many options to control the bandwidth and tones to meet band conditions. Olivia is very wide and very slow, but one can even work a station when you can not see the guy on the waterfall or hear him. I have done this myself on 30m. I love Olivia, it is my favorite mode when conditions are bad.  The main problem with the current design of Olivia is the long time between each QSO about 7 seconds, and the very slow speed.  This would mean the software has to wait 14 seconds to see if the packet was correct. This is not to say that some mode like Olivia could not be designed that uses ARQ, but the current version they way it is designed now would not work. FLDigi has options for Olivia for 2 to 256 tones and bandwidth from 125Hz to 2000 Hz. I have played arround with every mode to get the best S/N.

            Olivia is much better in S/N than any PSK mode to date. This is not the problem. Real World testing for files transfers shows that PSK125 has much better transfer times even though S/N is theoretically worse. Some mode like Olivia could be designed but would only be used in the most extreme conditions. Read the real world testing and research provided. You might be surprised.

            Check it out.
            http://pskmail. wikispaces. com/preferred+ mode
            http://www.w1hkj. com/Fldigi. html


            --- On Thu, 5/21/09, dl8le <dl8le@...> wrote:

            From: dl8le <dl8le@...>
            Subject: Re: [olivia] Olivia as ARQ mode?
            To: oliviadata@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Thursday, May 21, 2009, 10:59 AM

            Warren,

            you need a good S/N - ratio to be happy with PSK125 whereas Olivia and other modes are much more robust,i.e. they will not require as many repetitions as PSK125 if conditions are modest or poor.

            73

            Juergen, DL8LE

            --- In oliviadata@yahoogro ups.com, Warren Moxley <k5wgm@...> wrote:
            >
            > Doug,
            >
            > I Love Olivia and use it alot, but No, Olivia is not a good mode for ARQ but PSK125 is. The reason after a lot of testing is that the FEC in Olivia has to long a turn-a-round time / Delay. PSK125 is already being used for PSKMail and works great with flarq and fldigi. The reason the packets are very short and any errors don't have time to corrupt If it does it very fast to re-send them. FLDigi is used for many modes including all of the PSK's and all of the Olivia's.
            >
            > Check it out.
            > http://pskmail. wikispaces. com/preferred+ mode
            > http://www.w1hkj. com/Fldigi. html
            >
            >
            > Warren - K5WGM
            >
            > --- On Wed, 5/20/09, dougdb123 <dougdb123@. ..> wrote:
            >
            > From: dougdb123 <dougdb123@. ..>
            > Subject: [olivia] Olivia as ARQ mode?
            > To: oliviadata@yahoogro ups.com
            > Date: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 10:22 AM
            >
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            > just a thought but it seems like oliva could make a great ARQ (linked) mode like pactor or packet. olivia is much more robust and has about the same bandwidth as pactor depending on the choice of olivia submode. olivia does have a slower baud rate but it would still do a great job sending "HF mail" or for ragchewing. olivia already uses standard size 2.048sec slots for each 64bit FEC block during transmission, it seems like it would be easy enough to adapt this into an ARQ protocol. i admit i dont know a whole lot about how to go about building a TNC or program for a new protocol but it seems like olivia's modulation and especially robust coding would make this a this a great ARQ protocol for amatuer use.
            >
            >
            >
            > Doug-KB1MHD
            >


          • Warren Moxley
            Juergen, On a different note. I am interested in your Vertical Dipole for 80 you built. I am using a GAP Eagle DX from 40 to 10. I have no 80m antenna and have
            Message 5 of 10 , May 21 2:01 PM
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              Juergen,

              On a different note.

              I am interested in your Vertical Dipole for 80 you built. I am using a GAP Eagle DX from 40 to 10. I have no 80m antenna and have no room in my backyard for a good antenna. Can you make a suggestion?

              Are you using your FT990 for PSK and Olivia?

              Thanks,

              73s,
              Warren K5WGM - "Love Olivia"
              Garland, Texas USA

              --- On Thu, 5/21/09, dl8le <dl8le@...> wrote:

              From: dl8le <dl8le@...>
              Subject: Re: [olivia] Olivia as ARQ mode?
              To: oliviadata@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Thursday, May 21, 2009, 10:59 AM

              Warren,

              you need a good S/N - ratio to be happy with PSK125 whereas Olivia and other modes are much more robust,i.e. they will not require as many repetitions as PSK125 if conditions are modest or poor.

              73

              Juergen, DL8LE

              --- In oliviadata@yahoogro ups.com, Warren Moxley <k5wgm@....> wrote:
              >
              > Doug,
              >
              > I Love Olivia and use it alot, but No, Olivia is not a good mode for ARQ but PSK125 is. The reason after a lot of testing is that the FEC in Olivia has to long a turn-a-round time / Delay. PSK125 is already being used for PSKMail and works great with flarq and fldigi. The reason the packets are very short and any errors don't have time to corrupt If it does it very fast to re-send them. FLDigi is used for many modes including all of the PSK's and all of the Olivia's.
              >
              > Check it out.
              > http://pskmail. wikispaces. com/preferred+ mode
              > http://www.w1hkj. com/Fldigi. html
              >
              >
              > Warren - K5WGM
              >
              > --- On Wed, 5/20/09, dougdb123 <dougdb123@. ..> wrote:
              >
              > From: dougdb123 <dougdb123@. ...>
              > Subject: [olivia] Olivia as ARQ mode?
              > To: oliviadata@yahoogro ups.com
              > Date: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 10:22 AM
              >
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              > just a thought but it seems like oliva could make a great ARQ (linked) mode like pactor or packet. olivia is much more robust and has about the same bandwidth as pactor depending on the choice of olivia submode. olivia does have a slower baud rate but it would still do a great job sending "HF mail" or for ragchewing. olivia already uses standard size 2.048sec slots for each 64bit FEC block during transmission, it seems like it would be easy enough to adapt this into an ARQ protocol. i admit i dont know a whole lot about how to go about building a TNC or program for a new protocol but it seems like olivia's modulation and especially robust coding would make this a this a great ARQ protocol for amatuer use.
              >
              >
              >
              > Doug-KB1MHD
              >


            • dl8le
              I don t object against the usefulness of PSK125 for file transfer. My only comment was that it requires a good S/N ratio and stable conditions. If there would
              Message 6 of 10 , May 23 10:01 AM
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                I don't object against the usefulness of PSK125 for file transfer. My only comment was that it requires a good S/N ratio and stable conditions.

                If there would be a possibility to vary the lengths of Olivia sequences in a somehow dynamic way (like Pactor III) I still believe (but don't know it of course) that an Olivia ARQ mode could show a better performance.

                I will respond to the antenna question in a separate mail to you, Warren.

                73

                Juergen, DL8LE

                --- In oliviadata@yahoogroups.com, Warren Moxley <k5wgm@...> wrote:
                >
                > Juergen,
                >
                > I am not sure what your point is.
                >
                > The main reason Olivia works well is because of FEC and many options to control the bandwidth and tones to meet band conditions. Olivia is very wide and very slow, but one can even work a station when you can not see the guy on the waterfall or hear him. I have done this myself on 30m. I love Olivia, it is my favorite mode when conditions are bad.  The main problem with the current design of Olivia is the long time between each QSO about 7 seconds, and the very slow speed.  This would mean the software has to wait 14 seconds to see if the packet was correct. This is not to say that some mode like Olivia could not be designed that uses ARQ, but the current version they way it is designed now would not work. FLDigi has options for Olivia for 2 to 256 tones and bandwidth from 125Hz to 2000 Hz. I have played arround with every mode to get the best S/N.
                >
                > Olivia is much better in S/N than any PSK mode to date. This is not the problem. Real World testing for files transfers shows that PSK125 has much better transfer times even though S/N is theoretically worse. Some mode like Olivia could be designed but would only be used in the most extreme conditions. Read the real world testing and research provided. You might be surprised.
                >
                > Check it out.
                >
                > http://pskmail. wikispaces. com/preferred+ mode
                >
                > http://www.w1hkj. com/Fldigi. html
                >
                >
                > --- On Thu, 5/21/09, dl8le <dl8le@...> wrote:
                >
                > From: dl8le <dl8le@...>
                > Subject: Re: [olivia] Olivia as ARQ mode?
                > To: oliviadata@yahoogroups.com
                > Date: Thursday, May 21, 2009, 10:59 AM
                >
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                > Warren,
                >
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                >
                > you need a good S/N - ratio to be happy with PSK125 whereas Olivia and other modes are much more robust,i.e. they will not require as many repetitions as PSK125 if conditions are modest or poor.
                >
                >
                >
                > 73
                >
                >
                >
                > Juergen, DL8LE
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In oliviadata@yahoogro ups.com, Warren Moxley <k5wgm@> wrote:
                >
                > >
                >
                > > Doug,
                >
                > >
                >
                > > I Love Olivia and use it alot, but No, Olivia is not a good mode for ARQ but PSK125 is. The reason after a lot of testing is that the FEC in Olivia has to long a turn-a-round time / Delay. PSK125 is already being used for PSKMail and works great with flarq and fldigi. The reason the packets are very short and any errors don't have time to corrupt If it does it very fast to re-send them. FLDigi is used for many modes including all of the PSK's and all of the Olivia's.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > Check it out.
                >
                > > http://pskmail. wikispaces. com/preferred+ mode
                >
                > > http://www.w1hkj. com/Fldigi. html
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > Warren - K5WGM
                >
                > >
                >
                > > --- On Wed, 5/20/09, dougdb123 <dougdb123@ ..> wrote:
                >
                > >
                >
                > > From: dougdb123 <dougdb123@ ..>
                >
                > > Subject: [olivia] Olivia as ARQ mode?
                >
                > > To: oliviadata@yahoogro ups.com
                >
                > > Date: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 10:22 AM
                >
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                > > just a thought but it seems like oliva could make a great ARQ (linked) mode like pactor or packet. olivia is much more robust and has about the same bandwidth as pactor depending on the choice of olivia submode. olivia does have a slower baud rate but it would still do a great job sending "HF mail" or for ragchewing. olivia already uses standard size 2.048sec slots for each 64bit FEC block during transmission, it seems like it would be easy enough to adapt this into an ARQ protocol. i admit i dont know a whole lot about how to go about building a TNC or program for a new protocol but it seems like olivia's modulation and especially robust coding would make this a this a great ARQ protocol for amatuer use.
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > Doug-KB1MHD
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                >
              • Warren Moxley
                What turnaround time would you think would work? What size for default in dynamic packets? I remember a long time ago if the packet would not go through the
                Message 7 of 10 , May 23 5:31 PM
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                  What turnaround time would you think would work? What size for default in dynamic packets?

                  I remember a long time ago if the packet would not go through the first time it cut the packet size in half, and kept reduced it for a failure until it met to a minimum size. I forgot the algorithm name but it worked great when used for 1200 baud FM in the packet world because it had less chance to be corrupted and at least one packet gets through. Small packets and fast transfer times have a higher chance to get through when noise is spiked or intermittent. HF is a different world than FM on 2m. Different algorithms need to be designed around the type of noise. Now days we have many different modes and techniques experiment with. The Olivia mode / algorithm could enter into the mix for ARQ if the design is right. I believe that some of the techniques used in the Olivia mode / algorithm could be used to designed another mode that uses a combination of PSK and Olivia. The study would need to take advantage of all the successful modes and design an new ARQ mode that would work well on HF bands using real world testing. I believe Olivia came to age because of the low cost of PCs soundcards and can be done in software. The success of any mode depends on the type of noise and or interference.

                  I too would like to see a very robust ( S/N ) ARQ mode. Olivia works well in noise and interference. I would like to see a good study on Olivia in real world testing in all kinds of conditions on different bands. Depending on the Band and the type of noise different modes work. Computer simulations estimating S/N numbers don't take into account all the real world conditions, but I have not seen them all.

                  Your mileage may vary.

                  Warren - K5WGM


                   
                  --- On Sat, 5/23/09, dl8le <dl8le@...> wrote:

                  From: dl8le <dl8le@...>
                  Subject: Re: [olivia] Olivia as ARQ mode?
                  To: oliviadata@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Saturday, May 23, 2009, 12:01 PM

                  I don't object against the usefulness of PSK125 for file transfer. My only comment was that it requires a good S/N ratio and stable conditions.

                  If there would be a possibility to vary the lengths of Olivia sequences in a somehow dynamic way (like Pactor III) I still believe (but don't know it of course) that an Olivia ARQ mode could show a better performance.

                  I will respond to the antenna question in a separate mail to you, Warren.

                  73

                  Juergen, DL8LE

                  --- In oliviadata@yahoogro ups.com, Warren Moxley <k5wgm@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Juergen,
                  >
                  > I am not sure what your point is.
                  >
                  > The main reason Olivia works well is because of FEC and many options to control the bandwidth and tones to meet band conditions. Olivia is very wide and very slow, but one can even work a station when you can not see the guy on the waterfall or hear him. I have done this myself on 30m. I love Olivia, it is my favorite mode when conditions are bad.  The main problem with the current design of Olivia is the long time between each QSO about 7 seconds, and the very slow speed.  This would mean the software has to wait 14 seconds to see if the packet was correct. This is not to say that some mode like Olivia could not be designed that uses ARQ, but the current version they way it is designed now would not work. FLDigi has options for Olivia for 2 to 256 tones and bandwidth from 125Hz to 2000 Hz. I have played arround with every mode to get the best S/N.
                  >
                  > Olivia is much better in S/N than any PSK mode to date. This is not the problem. Real World testing for files transfers shows that PSK125 has much better transfer times even though S/N is theoretically worse. Some mode like Olivia could be designed but would only be used in the most extreme conditions. Read the real world testing and research provided. You might be surprised.
                  >
                  > Check it out.
                  >
                  > http://pskmail. wikispaces. com/preferred+ mode
                  >
                  > http://www.w1hkj. com/Fldigi. html
                  >
                  >
                  > --- On Thu, 5/21/09, dl8le <dl8le@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > From: dl8le <dl8le@...>
                  > Subject: Re: [olivia] Olivia as ARQ mode?
                  > To: oliviadata@yahoogro ups.com
                  > Date: Thursday, May 21, 2009, 10:59 AM
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
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                  > Warren,
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > you need a good S/N - ratio to be happy with PSK125 whereas Olivia and other modes are much more robust,i.e. they will not require as many repetitions as PSK125 if conditions are modest or poor.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > 73
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Juergen, DL8LE
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In oliviadata@yahoogro ups.com, Warren Moxley <k5wgm@> wrote:
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > Doug,
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > I Love Olivia and use it alot, but No, Olivia is not a good mode for ARQ but PSK125 is. The reason after a lot of testing is that the FEC in Olivia has to long a turn-a-round time / Delay. PSK125 is already being used for PSKMail and works great with flarq and fldigi. The reason the packets are very short and any errors don't have time to corrupt If it does it very fast to re-send them. FLDigi is used for many modes including all of the PSK's and all of the Olivia's.
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > Check it out.
                  >
                  > > http://pskmail. wikispaces. com/preferred+ mode
                  >
                  > > http://www.w1hkj. com/Fldigi. html
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > Warren - K5WGM
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > --- On Wed, 5/20/09, dougdb123 <dougdb123@ ..> wrote:
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > From: dougdb123 <dougdb123@ ..>
                  >
                  > > Subject: [olivia] Olivia as ARQ mode?
                  >
                  > > To: oliviadata@yahoogro ups.com
                  >
                  > > Date: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 10:22 AM
                  >
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                  >
                  > > just a thought but it seems like oliva could make a great ARQ (linked) mode like pactor or packet. olivia is much more robust and has about the same bandwidth as pactor depending on the choice of olivia submode. olivia does have a slower baud rate but it would still do a great job sending "HF mail" or for ragchewing. olivia already uses standard size 2.048sec slots for each 64bit FEC block during transmission, it seems like it would be easy enough to adapt this into an ARQ protocol. i admit i dont know a whole lot about how to go about building a TNC or program for a new protocol but it seems like olivia's modulation and especially robust coding would make this a this a great ARQ protocol for amatuer use.
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > Doug-KB1MHD
                  >
                  > >
                  >


                • dl8le
                  I cannot give you any good figures at the moment, Warren. I would need to look much deeper into that issue to get a figure which is better than just guessing.
                  Message 8 of 10 , May 25 3:51 AM
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I cannot give you any good figures at the moment, Warren. I would need to look much deeper into that issue to get a figure which is better than just guessing. By the way: Those who still remember the old times of 300 Baud HF Packet more than 20 years are probably very well aware of the problems in HF vs. 2m-FM Packet and all the different parameter settings.

                    By the way, there is good information about simulation results in the digitalradio-group in Yahoo which doesn't consider not only S/N but other factors as well.

                    73

                    Juergen, DL8LE

                    --- In oliviadata@yahoogroups.com, Warren Moxley <k5wgm@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > What turnaround time would you think would work? What size for default in dynamic packets?
                    >
                    > I remember a long time ago if the packet would not go through the first time it cut the packet size in half, and kept reduced it for a failure until it met to a minimum size. I forgot the algorithm name but it worked great when used for 1200 baud FM in the packet world because it had less chance to be corrupted and at least one packet gets through. Small packets and fast transfer times have a higher chance to get through when noise is spiked or intermittent. HF is a different world than FM on 2m. Different algorithms need to be designed around the type of noise. Now days we have many different modes and techniques experiment with. The Olivia mode / algorithm could enter into the mix for ARQ if the design is right. I believe that some of the techniques used in the Olivia mode / algorithm could be used to designed another mode that uses a combination of PSK and Olivia. The study would need to take advantage of all the successful modes and design an new ARQ
                    > mode that would work well on HF bands using real world testing. I believe Olivia came to age because of the low cost of PCs soundcards and can be done in software. The success of any mode depends on the type of noise and or interference.
                    >
                    > I too would like to see a very robust ( S/N ) ARQ mode. Olivia works well in noise and interference. I would like to see a good study on Olivia in real world testing in all kinds of conditions on different bands. Depending on the Band and the type of noise different modes work. Computer simulations estimating S/N numbers don't take into account all the real world conditions, but I have not seen them all.
                    >
                    > Your mileage may vary.
                    >
                    > Warren - K5WGM
                    >
                    >
                    >  
                    > --- On Sat, 5/23/09, dl8le <dl8le@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > From: dl8le <dl8le@...>
                    > Subject: Re: [olivia] Olivia as ARQ mode?
                    > To: oliviadata@yahoogroups.com
                    > Date: Saturday, May 23, 2009, 12:01 PM
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > I don't object against the usefulness of PSK125 for file transfer. My only comment was that it requires a good S/N ratio and stable conditions.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > If there would be a possibility to vary the lengths of Olivia sequences in a somehow dynamic way (like Pactor III) I still believe (but don't know it of course) that an Olivia ARQ mode could show a better performance.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > I will respond to the antenna question in a separate mail to you, Warren..
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > 73
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Juergen, DL8LE
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In oliviadata@yahoogro ups.com, Warren Moxley <k5wgm@> wrote:
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > Juergen,
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > I am not sure what your point is.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > The main reason Olivia works well is because of FEC and many options to control the bandwidth and tones to meet band conditions. Olivia is very wide and very slow, but one can even work a station when you can not see the guy on the waterfall or hear him. I have done this myself on 30m. I love Olivia, it is my favorite mode when conditions are bad.  The main problem with the current design of Olivia is the long time between each QSO about 7 seconds, and the very slow speed.  This would mean the software has to wait 14 seconds to see if the packet was correct. This is not to say that some mode like Olivia could not be designed that uses ARQ, but the current version they way it is designed now would not work. FLDigi has options for Olivia for 2 to 256 tones and bandwidth from 125Hz to 2000 Hz. I have played arround with every mode to get the best S/N.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > Olivia is much better in S/N than any PSK mode to date. This is not the problem. Real World testing for files transfers shows that PSK125 has much better transfer times even though S/N is theoretically worse. Some mode like Olivia could be designed but would only be used in the most extreme conditions. Read the real world testing and research provided. You might be surprised.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > Check it out.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > http://pskmail. wikispaces. com/preferred+ mode
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > http://www.w1hkj. com/Fldigi. html
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > --- On Thu, 5/21/09, dl8le <dl8le@> wrote:
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > From: dl8le <dl8le@>
                    >
                    > > Subject: Re: [olivia] Olivia as ARQ mode?
                    >
                    > > To: oliviadata@yahoogro ups.com
                    >
                    > > Date: Thursday, May 21, 2009, 10:59 AM
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > Warren,
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > you need a good S/N - ratio to be happy with PSK125 whereas Olivia and other modes are much more robust,i.e. they will not require as many repetitions as PSK125 if conditions are modest or poor.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > 73
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > Juergen, DL8LE
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > --- In oliviadata@yahoogro ups.com, Warren Moxley <k5wgm@> wrote:
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > Doug,
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > I Love Olivia and use it alot, but No, Olivia is not a good mode for ARQ but PSK125 is. The reason after a lot of testing is that the FEC in Olivia has to long a turn-a-round time / Delay. PSK125 is already being used for PSKMail and works great with flarq and fldigi. The reason the packets are very short and any errors don't have time to corrupt If it does it very fast to re-send them. FLDigi is used for many modes including all of the PSK's and all of the Olivia's.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > Check it out.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > http://pskmail. wikispaces. com/preferred+ mode
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > http://www.w1hkj. com/Fldigi. html
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > Warren - K5WGM
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > --- On Wed, 5/20/09, dougdb123 <dougdb123@ ..> wrote:
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > From: dougdb123 <dougdb123@ ..>
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > Subject: [olivia] Olivia as ARQ mode?
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > To: oliviadata@yahoogro ups.com
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > Date: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 10:22 AM
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > just a thought but it seems like oliva could make a great ARQ (linked) mode like pactor or packet. olivia is much more robust and has about the same bandwidth as pactor depending on the choice of olivia submode. olivia does have a slower baud rate but it would still do a great job sending "HF mail" or for ragchewing. olivia already uses standard size 2.048sec slots for each 64bit FEC block during transmission, it seems like it would be easy enough to adapt this into an ARQ protocol. i admit i dont know a whole lot about how to go about building a TNC or program for a new protocol but it seems like olivia's modulation and especially robust coding would make this a this a great ARQ protocol for amatuer use.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > Doug-KB1MHD
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                  • Warren Moxley
                    There has got to someone who has thought this through and has the skill to build a very robust mode for ARQ that cuts through the noise like Olivia. There has
                    Message 9 of 10 , May 25 7:11 AM
                    • 0 Attachment
                      There has got to someone who has thought this through and has the skill to build a very robust mode for ARQ that cuts through the noise like Olivia. There has been many times that I had a QSO on 30m with Olivia and wanted ARQ.

                      Guys, Let's do it!!!

                      K5WGM




                      --- On Mon, 5/25/09, dl8le <dl8le@...> wrote:

                      From: dl8le <dl8le@...>
                      Subject: Re: [olivia] Olivia as ARQ mode?
                      To: oliviadata@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Monday, May 25, 2009, 5:51 AM

                      I cannot give you any good figures at the moment, Warren. I would need to look much deeper into that issue to get a figure which is better than just guessing. By the way: Those who still remember the old times of 300 Baud HF Packet more than 20 years are probably very well aware of the problems in HF vs. 2m-FM Packet and all the different parameter settings.

                      By the way, there is good information about simulation results in the digitalradio- group in Yahoo which doesn't consider not only S/N but other factors as well.

                      73

                      Juergen, DL8LE

                      --- In oliviadata@yahoogro ups.com, Warren Moxley <k5wgm@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > What turnaround time would you think would work? What size for default in dynamic packets?
                      >
                      > I remember a long time ago if the packet would not go through the first time it cut the packet size in half, and kept reduced it for a failure until it met to a minimum size. I forgot the algorithm name but it worked great when used for 1200 baud FM in the packet world because it had less chance to be corrupted and at least one packet gets through. Small packets and fast transfer times have a higher chance to get through when noise is spiked or intermittent. HF is a different world than FM on 2m. Different algorithms need to be designed around the type of noise. Now days we have many different modes and techniques experiment with. The Olivia mode / algorithm could enter into the mix for ARQ if the design is right. I believe that some of the techniques used in the Olivia mode / algorithm could be used to designed another mode that uses a combination of PSK and Olivia. The study would need to take advantage of all the successful modes and design an new ARQ
                      > mode that would work well on HF bands using real world testing. I believe Olivia came to age because of the low cost of PCs soundcards and can be done in software. The success of any mode depends on the type of noise and or interference.
                      >
                      > I too would like to see a very robust ( S/N ) ARQ mode. Olivia works well in noise and interference. I would like to see a good study on Olivia in real world testing in all kinds of conditions on different bands. Depending on the Band and the type of noise different modes work. Computer simulations estimating S/N numbers don't take into account all the real world conditions, but I have not seen them all.
                      >
                      > Your mileage may vary.
                      >
                      > Warren - K5WGM
                      >
                      >
                      >  
                      > --- On Sat, 5/23/09, dl8le <dl8le@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > From: dl8le <dl8le@...>
                      > Subject: Re: [olivia] Olivia as ARQ mode?
                      > To: oliviadata@yahoogro ups.com
                      > Date: Saturday, May 23, 2009, 12:01 PM
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > I don't object against the usefulness of PSK125 for file transfer. My only comment was that it requires a good S/N ratio and stable conditions.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > If there would be a possibility to vary the lengths of Olivia sequences in a somehow dynamic way (like Pactor III) I still believe (but don't know it of course) that an Olivia ARQ mode could show a better performance.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > I will respond to the antenna question in a separate mail to you, Warren..
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > 73
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Juergen, DL8LE
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In oliviadata@yahoogro ups.com, Warren Moxley <k5wgm@> wrote:
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > Juergen,
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > I am not sure what your point is.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > The main reason Olivia works well is because of FEC and many options to control the bandwidth and tones to meet band conditions. Olivia is very wide and very slow, but one can even work a station when you can not see the guy on the waterfall or hear him. I have done this myself on 30m. I love Olivia, it is my favorite mode when conditions are bad.  The main problem with the current design of Olivia is the long time between each QSO about 7 seconds, and the very slow speed.  This would mean the software has to wait 14 seconds to see if the packet was correct. This is not to say that some mode like Olivia could not be designed that uses ARQ, but the current version they way it is designed now would not work. FLDigi has options for Olivia for 2 to 256 tones and bandwidth from 125Hz to 2000 Hz. I have played arround with every mode to get the best S/N.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > Olivia is much better in S/N than any PSK mode to date. This is not the problem. Real World testing for files transfers shows that PSK125 has much better transfer times even though S/N is theoretically worse. Some mode like Olivia could be designed but would only be used in the most extreme conditions. Read the real world testing and research provided. You might be surprised.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > Check it out.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > http://pskmail. wikispaces. com/preferred+ mode
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > http://www.w1hkj. com/Fldigi. html
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > --- On Thu, 5/21/09, dl8le <dl8le@> wrote:
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > From: dl8le <dl8le@>
                      >
                      > > Subject: Re: [olivia] Olivia as ARQ mode?
                      >
                      > > To: oliviadata@yahoogro ups.com
                      >
                      > > Date: Thursday, May 21, 2009, 10:59 AM
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > Warren,
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > you need a good S/N - ratio to be happy with PSK125 whereas Olivia and other modes are much more robust,i.e. they will not require as many repetitions as PSK125 if conditions are modest or poor.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > 73
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > Juergen, DL8LE
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > --- In oliviadata@yahoogro ups.com, Warren Moxley <k5wgm@> wrote:
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > Doug,
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > I Love Olivia and use it alot, but No, Olivia is not a good mode for ARQ but PSK125 is. The reason after a lot of testing is that the FEC in Olivia has to long a turn-a-round time / Delay. PSK125 is already being used for PSKMail and works great with flarq and fldigi. The reason the packets are very short and any errors don't have time to corrupt If it does it very fast to re-send them. FLDigi is used for many modes including all of the PSK's and all of the Olivia's.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > Check it out.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > http://pskmail. wikispaces. com/preferred+ mode
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > http://www.w1hkj. com/Fldigi. html
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > Warren - K5WGM
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > --- On Wed, 5/20/09, dougdb123 <dougdb123@ ..> wrote:
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > From: dougdb123 <dougdb123@ ..>
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > Subject: [olivia] Olivia as ARQ mode?
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > To: oliviadata@yahoogro ups.com
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > Date: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 10:22 AM
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > just a thought but it seems like oliva could make a great ARQ (linked) mode like pactor or packet. olivia is much more robust and has about the same bandwidth as pactor depending on the choice of olivia submode. olivia does have a slower baud rate but it would still do a great job sending "HF mail" or for ragchewing. olivia already uses standard size 2.048sec slots for each 64bit FEC block during transmission, it seems like it would be easy enough to adapt this into an ARQ protocol. i admit i dont know a whole lot about how to go about building a TNC or program for a new protocol but it seems like olivia's modulation and especially robust coding would make this a this a great ARQ protocol for amatuer use.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > Doug-KB1MHD
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >


                    • dougdb123
                      thanks for the feedback everyone, well as I said before I m not a programmer, and a know a little about electronics, but I would still like to try to start
                      Message 10 of 10 , May 26 7:09 AM
                      • 0 Attachment
                        thanks for the feedback everyone, well as I said before I'm not a programmer, and a know a little about electronics, but I would still like to try to start something here. I will try to find more information on olivia, tests and simulations and also TNCs. I think it would be nice to be able to have an HF mailbox using olivia that wouldn't require your pc to be on all the time. maybe olivia ARQ for pc and in a TNC? just brainstorming. I can't take on a project like this myself, but I want to try to learn what I can and try to start. I would need the help of people who know more about how to actually put a project like this together. My idea for the project would be a TNC with ARQ olivia and internal memory for a mailbox. TNCs seem more useful for ARQ then simply having your computer on all the time, however I would also like to have soundcard program for those who don't want to build a TNC. maybe make TNC kits available? If anyone would like to help me figure out how to begin, or provide input please let me know.

                        Doug - KB1MHD


                        --- In oliviadata@yahoogroups.com, Warren Moxley <k5wgm@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > There has got to someone who has thought this through and has the skill to build a very robust mode for ARQ that cuts through the noise like Olivia. There has been many times that I had a QSO on 30m with Olivia and wanted ARQ..
                        >
                        > Guys, Let's do it!!!
                        >
                        > K5WGM
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- On Mon, 5/25/09, dl8le <dl8le@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > From: dl8le <dl8le@...>
                        > Subject: Re: [olivia] Olivia as ARQ mode?
                        > To: oliviadata@yahoogroups.com
                        > Date: Monday, May 25, 2009, 5:51 AM
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > I cannot give you any good figures at the moment, Warren. I would need to look much deeper into that issue to get a figure which is better than just guessing. By the way: Those who still remember the old times of 300 Baud HF Packet more than 20 years are probably very well aware of the problems in HF vs. 2m-FM Packet and all the different parameter settings.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > By the way, there is good information about simulation results in the digitalradio- group in Yahoo which doesn't consider not only S/N but other factors as well.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > 73
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Juergen, DL8LE
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In oliviadata@yahoogro ups.com, Warren Moxley <k5wgm@> wrote:
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > What turnaround time would you think would work? What size for default in dynamic packets?
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > I remember a long time ago if the packet would not go through the first time it cut the packet size in half, and kept reduced it for a failure until it met to a minimum size. I forgot the algorithm name but it worked great when used for 1200 baud FM in the packet world because it had less chance to be corrupted and at least one packet gets through. Small packets and fast transfer times have a higher chance to get through when noise is spiked or intermittent. HF is a different world than FM on 2m. Different algorithms need to be designed around the type of noise. Now days we have many different modes and techniques experiment with. The Olivia mode / algorithm could enter into the mix for ARQ if the design is right. I believe that some of the techniques used in the Olivia mode / algorithm could be used to designed another mode that uses a combination of PSK and Olivia. The study would need to take advantage of all the successful modes and design an new
                        > ARQ
                        >
                        > > mode that would work well on HF bands using real world testing. I believe Olivia came to age because of the low cost of PCs soundcards and can be done in software. The success of any mode depends on the type of noise and or interference.
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > I too would like to see a very robust ( S/N ) ARQ mode. Olivia works well in noise and interference. I would like to see a good study on Olivia in real world testing in all kinds of conditions on different bands. Depending on the Band and the type of noise different modes work. Computer simulations estimating S/N numbers don't take into account all the real world conditions, but I have not seen them all.
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > Your mileage may vary.
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > Warren - K5WGM
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >  
                        >
                        > > --- On Sat, 5/23/09, dl8le <dl8le@> wrote:
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > From: dl8le <dl8le@>
                        >
                        > > Subject: Re: [olivia] Olivia as ARQ mode?
                        >
                        > > To: oliviadata@yahoogro ups.com
                        >
                        > > Date: Saturday, May 23, 2009, 12:01 PM
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > I don't object against the usefulness of PSK125 for file transfer. My only comment was that it requires a good S/N ratio and stable conditions.
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > If there would be a possibility to vary the lengths of Olivia sequences in a somehow dynamic way (like Pactor III) I still believe (but don't know it of course) that an Olivia ARQ mode could show a better performance.
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > I will respond to the antenna question in a separate mail to you, Warren..
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > 73
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > Juergen, DL8LE
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > --- In oliviadata@yahoogro ups.com, Warren Moxley <k5wgm@> wrote:
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > Juergen,
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > I am not sure what your point is.
                        >
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                        > > > The main reason Olivia works well is because of FEC and many options to control the bandwidth and tones to meet band conditions. Olivia is very wide and very slow, but one can even work a station when you can not see the guy on the waterfall or hear him. I have done this myself on 30m. I love Olivia, it is my favorite mode when conditions are bad.  The main problem with the current design of Olivia is the long time between each QSO about 7 seconds, and the very slow speed.  This would mean the software has to wait 14 seconds to see if the packet was correct. This is not to say that some mode like Olivia could not be designed that uses ARQ, but the current version they way it is designed now would not work. FLDigi has options for Olivia for 2 to 256 tones and bandwidth from 125Hz to 2000 Hz. I have played arround with every mode to get the best S/N.
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                        > > > Olivia is much better in S/N than any PSK mode to date. This is not the problem. Real World testing for files transfers shows that PSK125 has much better transfer times even though S/N is theoretically worse. Some mode like Olivia could be designed but would only be used in the most extreme conditions. Read the real world testing and research provided. You might be surprised.
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                        > > > Check it out.
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                        > > > http://pskmail. wikispaces. com/preferred+ mode
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                        > > > http://www.w1hkj. com/Fldigi. html
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                        > > > --- On Thu, 5/21/09, dl8le <dl8le@> wrote:
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                        > > > From: dl8le <dl8le@>
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                        > > > Subject: Re: [olivia] Olivia as ARQ mode?
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                        > > > To: oliviadata@yahoogro ups.com
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                        > > > Date: Thursday, May 21, 2009, 10:59 AM
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                        > > > Warren,
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                        > > > you need a good S/N - ratio to be happy with PSK125 whereas Olivia and other modes are much more robust,i.e. they will not require as many repetitions as PSK125 if conditions are modest or poor.
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                        > > > 73
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                        > > > Juergen, DL8LE
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                        > > > --- In oliviadata@yahoogro ups.com, Warren Moxley <k5wgm@> wrote:
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                        > > > > I Love Olivia and use it alot, but No, Olivia is not a good mode for ARQ but PSK125 is. The reason after a lot of testing is that the FEC in Olivia has to long a turn-a-round time / Delay. PSK125 is already being used for PSKMail and works great with flarq and fldigi. The reason the packets are very short and any errors don't have time to corrupt If it does it very fast to re-send them. FLDigi is used for many modes including all of the PSK's and all of the Olivia's.
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                        > > > > Check it out.
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                        > > > > http://pskmail. wikispaces. com/preferred+ mode
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                        > > > > http://www.w1hkj. com/Fldigi. html
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                        > > > > Warren - K5WGM
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                        > > > > --- On Wed, 5/20/09, dougdb123 <dougdb123@ ..> wrote:
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                        > > > > From: dougdb123 <dougdb123@ ..>
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                        > > > > Subject: [olivia] Olivia as ARQ mode?
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                        > > > > To: oliviadata@yahoogro ups.com
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                        > > > > Date: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 10:22 AM
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                        > > > > just a thought but it seems like oliva could make a great ARQ (linked) mode like pactor or packet. olivia is much more robust and has about the same bandwidth as pactor depending on the choice of olivia submode.. olivia does have a slower baud rate but it would still do a great job sending "HF mail" or for ragchewing. olivia already uses standard size 2.048sec slots for each 64bit FEC block during transmission, it seems like it would be easy enough to adapt this into an ARQ protocol. i admit i dont know a whole lot about how to go about building a TNC or program for a new protocol but it seems like olivia's modulation and especially robust coding would make this a this a great ARQ protocol for amatuer use.
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                        > > > > Doug-KB1MHD
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