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Re: [oldright] Visit BREAKING ALL THE RULES http://batr.org Visit BREAKING ALL THE RULES http://batr.org Visit BREAKING ALL THE RULES http://batr.org Re: Visit BREAKING ALL THE RULES http://batr.org First time post and DON'T know WHY I'm here!LOL

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  • Steven Laib
    Buddie, I hate to say this, but you haven t been paying attention. I said that the IRS should have the burden of proof, but I didn t say anything about the
    Message 1 of 14 , Sep 16 2:00 PM
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      Buddie,

      I hate to say this, but you haven't been paying attention. 

      I said that the IRS should have the burden of proof, but I didn't say anything about
      the citizen having to provide records.  Besides, in most instances, the citizen has the
      reciepts and the IRS says they don't and wants them produced. 

      Fortunately, I don't take the rest of your post seriously.

      Steve Laib

      buddiebuddiee wrote:

      "My contention is that the Treasury Dept. / IRS carries the burden of
      proof and not the citizen. "

      Steve..You stating that the IRS carries the "burden" of proof???
      HELLO???? WHY should any  peon keep receipts about themselves that
      would be USED AGAINST them??

      INCOME TAX = SLAVERY -- plain & simple!! It's a CONTROL mechanism and
      and EXTORTION!!!

      Governments are SERVANTS of the people and pray tell -- WHEN have the
      SERVANTS  become the MASTERS and the People their Servants?

      And pleeeaaaazzze...DON'T talk about "paying one's share" -- THAT's a
      lot of BS!!! Why is it that people LOVE slavery and DON'T want OTHERS
      to get out of THIS prison?

      We've been PROGRAMMED from the day we born to ACCEPT authority and
      NOT question ANYTHING OR ANYBODY!

      Buddie




      --- In oldright@yahoogroups.com, Steven Laib <slaib@e...> wrote:
      > Buddie,
      >
      > This is a difficult question to answer.  What I believe at bottom
      line
      > is that government believes that
      > it has the right to tax people and to use the IRS as its agency to
      do so
      > with respect to the federal
      > income tax.  Actually, over the years I have collected a lot of
      > information on what I call the
      > Lore and Legend of the Income Tax Protest Movement.  After
      examining a
      > lot of it in detail I
      > have had to throw some of it out totally.  For example, the
      suggestion
      > that people are citizens of their
      > state, and not of the United States.  It simply doesn't work. 
      However,
      > there are other arguments which
      > might have merit, but are not addressed by the courts or the
      government.
      >
      > My major issue is not whether the income tax is legal, but whether
      it is
      > enforced in a legal fashion.
      > My contention is that the Treasury Dept. / IRS carries the burden
      of
      > proof and not the citizen.
      > Otherwise the citizen is placed in a position of inequity similar
      to
      > that which caused the courts
      > to rule against contracts of adhesion.
      >
      > The government position is to hide behind the myth that most tax
      > proceedings are civil, rather than
      > criminal matters, but that is not relevant.  Even in civil matters
      the
      > person making the contention has
      > the burden of proof.  If the IRS says you owe the tax then they
      must
      > show how and why.
      >
      > You may want to look at a short piece I have coming up on
      > Intellectualconservative.com in the next
      > few days.
      >
      > I'm originally from Berzerkly Calif.  One parent German and the
      other
      > Canadian but naturalized
      > American by serving with the US army in WW 2.
      >
      >
      > Steve Laib
      >
      > buddiebuddiee wrote:
      >
      > >
      > > Steve? You are American, I gather. The IRS. You believe they have
      the
      > > authority to tax people? And do you believe that Income Tax is
      > > Legal/ILLEGAL?
      > >
      > > Am Canadian...Europen-born.
      > >
      > > Buddie
      > >
      > > --- In oldright@yahoogroups.com, Steven Laib <slaib@e...> wrote:
      > > > Do they actually investigate is an excellent question.  One
      might
      > > also
      > > > ask if they investigate only to
      > > > confirm previously held beliefs, or do they go all the way to
      find
      > > out
      > > > if they are correct in those
      > > > beliefs.
      > > >
      > > > Since I do commentary, my duty is not to present only the facts,
      > > but my
      > > > thinking concerning them.
      > > > When I wrote on exclusively tax law developments, years ago,  I
      had
      > > a
      > > > significant duty to be accurate
      > > > in my presentation of what  changes had occurred.  My comments
      were
      > > my
      > > > own thinking and were
      > > > expected to get people to investigate and draw their own
      > > conclusions.
      > > > This should be extremely
      > > > important in complex areas where people don't often know what is
      > > > happening.  I recall some
      > > > items in the Tax Act of 1986 which did exactly the opposite of
      what
      > > the
      > > > legislature wanted and
      > > > had to be rewritten.  Thus, it pays to be very careful.
      > > >
      > > > Steve Laib
      > > >
      > > > buddiebuddiee wrote:
      > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Sartre -- And do they ACTUALLY investigate?? Or they given
      already
      > > > > PREPARED scripts to mouth off on television and in print?!
      > > > >
      > > > > Buddie
      > > > >
      > > > > --- In oldright@yahoogroups.com, "sartrejp" <sartrejp@f...>
      wrote:
      > > > > > Buddie,
      > > > > >
      > > > > > How about investigating and reporting facts! The role of the
      > > > > commentator is
      > > > > > to offer an explanation for their significance.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > SARTRE
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > > > > From: "buddiebuddiee" <Buddie29@h...>
      > > > > > To: <oldright@yahoogroups.com>
      > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 2:30 PM
      > > > > > Subject: [oldright] Visit BREAKING ALL THE RULES
      http://batr.org
      > > > > First time
      > > > > > post and DON'T know WHY I'm here!LOL
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > You are ALL intellectuals here with many Doctor/ed
      degrees ;)
      > > and
      > > > > > > some BSers here...no? ;)
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > My MAJOR beef is with the MAINSTREAM MEDIA..
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > What is the MAIN job of a reporter/journalist? Anyone here
      > > care to
      > > > > > > enlighten me?
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > TIA
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Buddie
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > > > > > > oldright-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
      > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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      > >
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      > > fm?code=30509&media=atkins>
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > > > > oldright-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
      > > Service
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      > >
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      fm?code=30510&media=zone>
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > > oldright-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
      Service
      > > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.



      To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      oldright-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
    • buddiebuddiee
      Then what you saying, Sam...is that it s ALL LIES -- what the media prints and reads off their prepared scripts? Buddie ... First time post and DON T know WHY
      Message 2 of 14 , Sep 16 2:04 PM
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        Then what you saying, Sam...is that it's ALL LIES -- what the media
        prints and reads off their prepared scripts?

        Buddie

        --- In oldright@yahoogroups.com, "sam" <mugwump@h...> wrote:
        > ....report the news as they see it before
        > it is twisted and distorted by their
        > editors!!!
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: buddiebuddiee
        > To: oldright@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 1:30 PM
        > Subject: [oldright] Visit BREAKING ALL THE RULES http://batr.org
        First time post and DON'T know WHY I'm here!LOL
        >
        >
        >
        > You are ALL intellectuals here with many Doctor/ed degrees ;) and
        > some BSers here...no? ;)
        >
        > My MAJOR beef is with the MAINSTREAM MEDIA..
        >
        > What is the MAIN job of a reporter/journalist? Anyone here care
        to
        > enlighten me?
        >
        > TIA
        >
        > Buddie
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
        > ADVERTISEMENT
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > oldright-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        >
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
        Service.
      • buddiebuddiee
        Ya..You caught me alright. ;) I have a tendency to speedread. :) Fortunately ???LOL...Why you saying that? Just curious...ok? Buddie ... say ... the ...
        Message 3 of 14 , Sep 16 2:08 PM
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          Ya..You caught me alright. ;) I have a tendency to speedread. :)

          "Fortunately"???LOL...Why you saying that? Just curious...ok?

          Buddie


          --- In oldright@yahoogroups.com, Steven Laib <slaib@e...> wrote:
          > Buddie,
          >
          > I hate to say this, but you haven't been paying attention.
          >
          > I said that the IRS should have the burden of proof, but I didn't
          say
          > anything about
          > the citizen having to provide records. Besides, in most instances,
          the
          > citizen has the
          > reciepts and the IRS says they don't and wants them produced.
          >
          > Fortunately, I don't take the rest of your post seriously.
          >
          > Steve Laib
          >
          > buddiebuddiee wrote:
          >
          > >
          > > "My contention is that the Treasury Dept. / IRS carries the
          burden of
          > > proof and not the citizen. "
          > >
          > > Steve..You stating that the IRS carries the "burden" of proof???
          > > HELLO???? WHY should any peon keep receipts about themselves that
          > > would be USED AGAINST them??
          > >
          > > INCOME TAX = SLAVERY -- plain & simple!! It's a CONTROL mechanism
          and
          > > and EXTORTION!!!
          > >
          > > Governments are SERVANTS of the people and pray tell -- WHEN have
          the
          > > SERVANTS become the MASTERS and the People their Servants?
          > >
          > > And pleeeaaaazzze...DON'T talk about "paying one's share" --
          THAT's a
          > > lot of BS!!! Why is it that people LOVE slavery and DON'T want
          OTHERS
          > > to get out of THIS prison?
          > >
          > > We've been PROGRAMMED from the day we born to ACCEPT authority and
          > > NOT question ANYTHING OR ANYBODY!
          > >
          > > Buddie
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In oldright@yahoogroups.com, Steven Laib <slaib@e...> wrote:
          > > > Buddie,
          > > >
          > > > This is a difficult question to answer. What I believe at
          bottom
          > > line
          > > > is that government believes that
          > > > it has the right to tax people and to use the IRS as its agency
          to
          > > do so
          > > > with respect to the federal
          > > > income tax. Actually, over the years I have collected a lot of
          > > > information on what I call the
          > > > Lore and Legend of the Income Tax Protest Movement. After
          > > examining a
          > > > lot of it in detail I
          > > > have had to throw some of it out totally. For example, the
          > > suggestion
          > > > that people are citizens of their
          > > > state, and not of the United States. It simply doesn't work.
          > > However,
          > > > there are other arguments which
          > > > might have merit, but are not addressed by the courts or the
          > > government.
          > > >
          > > > My major issue is not whether the income tax is legal, but
          whether
          > > it is
          > > > enforced in a legal fashion.
          > > > My contention is that the Treasury Dept. / IRS carries the
          burden
          > > of
          > > > proof and not the citizen.
          > > > Otherwise the citizen is placed in a position of inequity
          similar
          > > to
          > > > that which caused the courts
          > > > to rule against contracts of adhesion.
          > > >
          > > > The government position is to hide behind the myth that most tax
          > > > proceedings are civil, rather than
          > > > criminal matters, but that is not relevant. Even in civil
          matters
          > > the
          > > > person making the contention has
          > > > the burden of proof. If the IRS says you owe the tax then they
          > > must
          > > > show how and why.
          > > >
          > > > You may want to look at a short piece I have coming up on
          > > > Intellectualconservative.com in the next
          > > > few days.
          > > >
          > > > I'm originally from Berzerkly Calif. One parent German and the
          > > other
          > > > Canadian but naturalized
          > > > American by serving with the US army in WW 2.
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Steve Laib
          > > >
          > > > buddiebuddiee wrote:
          > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > Steve? You are American, I gather. The IRS. You believe they
          have
          > > the
          > > > > authority to tax people? And do you believe that Income Tax is
          > > > > Legal/ILLEGAL?
          > > > >
          > > > > Am Canadian...Europen-born.
          > > > >
          > > > > Buddie
          > > > >
          > > > > --- In oldright@yahoogroups.com, Steven Laib <slaib@e...>
          wrote:
          > > > > > Do they actually investigate is an excellent question. One
          > > might
          > > > > also
          > > > > > ask if they investigate only to
          > > > > > confirm previously held beliefs, or do they go all the way
          to
          > > find
          > > > > out
          > > > > > if they are correct in those
          > > > > > beliefs.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Since I do commentary, my duty is not to present only the
          facts,
          > > > > but my
          > > > > > thinking concerning them.
          > > > > > When I wrote on exclusively tax law developments, years
          ago, I
          > > had
          > > > > a
          > > > > > significant duty to be accurate
          > > > > > in my presentation of what changes had occurred. My
          comments
          > > were
          > > > > my
          > > > > > own thinking and were
          > > > > > expected to get people to investigate and draw their own
          > > > > conclusions.
          > > > > > This should be extremely
          > > > > > important in complex areas where people don't often know
          what is
          > > > > > happening. I recall some
          > > > > > items in the Tax Act of 1986 which did exactly the opposite
          of
          > > what
          > > > > the
          > > > > > legislature wanted and
          > > > > > had to be rewritten. Thus, it pays to be very careful.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Steve Laib
          > > > > >
          > > > > > buddiebuddiee wrote:
          > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Sartre -- And do they ACTUALLY investigate?? Or they given
          > > already
          > > > > > > PREPARED scripts to mouth off on television and in print?!
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Buddie
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > --- In oldright@yahoogroups.com, "sartrejp"
          <sartrejp@f...>
          > > wrote:
          > > > > > > > Buddie,
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > How about investigating and reporting facts! The role
          of the
          > > > > > > commentator is
          > > > > > > > to offer an explanation for their significance.
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > SARTRE
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
          > > > > > > > From: "buddiebuddiee" <Buddie29@h...>
          > > > > > > > To: <oldright@yahoogroups.com>
          > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 2:30 PM
          > > > > > > > Subject: [oldright] Visit BREAKING ALL THE RULES
          > > http://batr.org
          > > > > > > First time
          > > > > > > > post and DON'T know WHY I'm here!LOL
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > You are ALL intellectuals here with many Doctor/ed
          > > degrees ;)
          > > > > and
          > > > > > > > > some BSers here...no? ;)
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > My MAJOR beef is with the MAINSTREAM MEDIA..
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > What is the MAIN job of a reporter/journalist? Anyone
          here
          > > > > care to
          > > > > > > > > enlighten me?
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > TIA
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Buddie
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > > > > > > > > oldright-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
          > > > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
          > > > > > > ADVERTISEMENT
          > > > > > >
          > > > >
          > >
          <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=194081.3897168.5135684.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=17
          > > > >
          > >
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          > > > > fm?code=30509&media=atkins>
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > > > > > > oldright-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
          of
          > > > > Service
          > > > > > > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
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          > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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          > > > >
          > >
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          > >
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          > > fm?code=30510&media=zone>
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > > > > oldright-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
          > > Service
          > > > > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
          > >
          > >
          > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
          > > ADVERTISEMENT
          > >
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          > >
          > >
          > >
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          > >
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          Service
          > > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
        • Steven Laib
          Consider, I was invited to join this group in part because of my demonstrated ability. Sartre and I have crossed words on occasion because we disagree, but we
          Message 4 of 14 , Sep 16 2:30 PM
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            Consider,

            I was invited to join this group in part because of my demonstrated ability.  Sartre
            and I have crossed words on occasion because we disagree, but we do it cordially, and
            without overt emotional overtones.  We also take the time to read each other's notes and
            make sure we understand each other before going off half cocked. 

            I expect, perhaps wrongly, that others take the time and care that I do in forming
            conclusions before writing back.  After years of intellectual discussion with people
            of all ranks and education levels I've found that it is a bad idea to form any conclusions
            too fast and then act on them without thinking. 

            Now consider that even Ben Franklin said that taxes are the price we pay for civilization. 
            Jesus said that we should render unto Caesar what is Caesar's.  Tithing has been a constant
            in the Bible, and in other societies where religion plays a significant role. 

            These are two starting points for the position that some level of taxation can be considered
            legitimate.  Of course, I could assume that you are an atheist, or anarchist, but I might be
            wrong.  Most people I know would agree that government can serve some legitimate
            service, therefore, it is necessary to find some source of funding.  If you have a better
            idea than taxation, tell me what it is and I'll listen. 

            Finally, if I did take the rest of what you wrote seriously, I'd have to write you off as
            a less than serious participant in this group, and simply ignore what you had to say.
            That would be a shame for both of us. 

            Cordially,

            Steve Laib

            buddiebuddiee wrote:

            Ya..You caught me alright. ;) I have a tendency to speedread. :)

            "Fortunately"???LOL...Why you saying that? Just curious...ok?

            Buddie


            --- In oldright@yahoogroups.com, Steven Laib <slaib@e...> wrote:
            > Buddie,
            >
            > I hate to say this, but you haven't been paying attention.
            >
            > I said that the IRS should have the burden of proof, but I didn't
            say
            > anything about
            > the citizen having to provide records.  Besides, in most instances,
            the
            > citizen has the
            > reciepts and the IRS says they don't and wants them produced.
            >
            > Fortunately, I don't take the rest of your post seriously.
            >
            > Steve Laib
            >
            > buddiebuddiee wrote:
            >
            > >
            > > "My contention is that the Treasury Dept. / IRS carries the
            burden of
            > > proof and not the citizen. "
            > >
            > > Steve..You stating that the IRS carries the "burden" of proof???
            > > HELLO???? WHY should any  peon keep receipts about themselves that
            > > would be USED AGAINST them??
            > >
            > > INCOME TAX = SLAVERY -- plain & simple!! It's a CONTROL mechanism
            and
            > > and EXTORTION!!!
            > >
            > > Governments are SERVANTS of the people and pray tell -- WHEN have
            the
            > > SERVANTS  become the MASTERS and the People their Servants?
            > >
            > > And pleeeaaaazzze...DON'T talk about "paying one's share" --
            THAT's a
            > > lot of BS!!! Why is it that people LOVE slavery and DON'T want
            OTHERS
            > > to get out of THIS prison?
            > >
            > > We've been PROGRAMMED from the day we born to ACCEPT authority and
            > > NOT question ANYTHING OR ANYBODY!
            > >
            > > Buddie
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In oldright@yahoogroups.com, Steven Laib <slaib@e...> wrote:
            > > > Buddie,
            > > >
            > > > This is a difficult question to answer.  What I believe at
            bottom
            > > line
            > > > is that government believes that
            > > > it has the right to tax people and to use the IRS as its agency
            to
            > > do so
            > > > with respect to the federal
            > > > income tax.  Actually, over the years I have collected a lot of
            > > > information on what I call the
            > > > Lore and Legend of the Income Tax Protest Movement.  After
            > > examining a
            > > > lot of it in detail I
            > > > have had to throw some of it out totally.  For example, the
            > > suggestion
            > > > that people are citizens of their
            > > > state, and not of the United States.  It simply doesn't work.
            > > However,
            > > > there are other arguments which
            > > > might have merit, but are not addressed by the courts or the
            > > government.
            > > >
            > > > My major issue is not whether the income tax is legal, but
            whether
            > > it is
            > > > enforced in a legal fashion.
            > > > My contention is that the Treasury Dept. / IRS carries the
            burden
            > > of
            > > > proof and not the citizen.
            > > > Otherwise the citizen is placed in a position of inequity
            similar
            > > to
            > > > that which caused the courts
            > > > to rule against contracts of adhesion.
            > > >
            > > > The government position is to hide behind the myth that most tax
            > > > proceedings are civil, rather than
            > > > criminal matters, but that is not relevant.  Even in civil
            matters
            > > the
            > > > person making the contention has
            > > > the burden of proof.  If the IRS says you owe the tax then they
            > > must
            > > > show how and why.
            > > >
            > > > You may want to look at a short piece I have coming up on
            > > > Intellectualconservative.com in the next
            > > > few days.
            > > >
            > > > I'm originally from Berzerkly Calif.  One parent German and the
            > > other
            > > > Canadian but naturalized
            > > > American by serving with the US army in WW 2.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Steve Laib
            > > >
            > > > buddiebuddiee wrote:
            > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > Steve? You are American, I gather. The IRS. You believe they
            have
            > > the
            > > > > authority to tax people? And do you believe that Income Tax is
            > > > > Legal/ILLEGAL?
            > > > >
            > > > > Am Canadian...Europen-born.
            > > > >
            > > > > Buddie
            > > > >
            > > > > --- In oldright@yahoogroups.com, Steven Laib <slaib@e...>
            wrote:
            > > > > > Do they actually investigate is an excellent question.  One
            > > might
            > > > > also
            > > > > > ask if they investigate only to
            > > > > > confirm previously held beliefs, or do they go all the way
            to
            > > find
            > > > > out
            > > > > > if they are correct in those
            > > > > > beliefs.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Since I do commentary, my duty is not to present only the
            facts,
            > > > > but my
            > > > > > thinking concerning them.
            > > > > > When I wrote on exclusively tax law developments, years
            ago,  I
            > > had
            > > > > a
            > > > > > significant duty to be accurate
            > > > > > in my presentation of what  changes had occurred.  My
            comments
            > > were
            > > > > my
            > > > > > own thinking and were
            > > > > > expected to get people to investigate and draw their own
            > > > > conclusions.
            > > > > > This should be extremely
            > > > > > important in complex areas where people don't often know
            what is
            > > > > > happening.  I recall some
            > > > > > items in the Tax Act of 1986 which did exactly the opposite
            of
            > > what
            > > > > the
            > > > > > legislature wanted and
            > > > > > had to be rewritten.  Thus, it pays to be very careful.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Steve Laib
            > > > > >
            > > > > > buddiebuddiee wrote:
            > > > > >
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > Sartre -- And do they ACTUALLY investigate?? Or they given
            > > already
            > > > > > > PREPARED scripts to mouth off on television and in print?!
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > Buddie
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > --- In oldright@yahoogroups.com, "sartrejp"
            <sartrejp@f...>
            > > wrote:
            > > > > > > > Buddie,
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > How about investigating and reporting facts! The role
            of the
            > > > > > > commentator is
            > > > > > > > to offer an explanation for their significance.
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > SARTRE
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > > > > > > From: "buddiebuddiee" <Buddie29@h...>
            > > > > > > > To: <oldright@yahoogroups.com>
            > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 2:30 PM
            > > > > > > > Subject: [oldright] Visit BREAKING ALL THE RULES
            > > http://batr.org
            > > > > > > First time
            > > > > > > > post and DON'T know WHY I'm here!LOL
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > > You are ALL intellectuals here with many Doctor/ed
            > > degrees ;)
            > > > > and
            > > > > > > > > some BSers here...no? ;)
            > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > > My MAJOR beef is with the MAINSTREAM MEDIA..
            > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > > What is the MAIN job of a reporter/journalist? Anyone
            here
            > > > > care to
            > > > > > > > > enlighten me?
            > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > > TIA
            > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > > Buddie
            > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > > > > > > > > oldright-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            > > > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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            > >
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            > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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            > > > >
            > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
            > > Service
            > > > > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
            > >
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          • sam
            If the reporter on the scene is HONEST he reports what he sees etc. However when he turns his story into his editor who has been bought and paid for by the
            Message 5 of 14 , Sep 16 2:53 PM
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              If the reporter on the scene is HONEST
              he reports what he sees etc.  However
              when he turns his story into his editor
              who has been bought and paid for by the
              powers that be, his original story has
              bee boiled down to what his boss is
              allowed to broadcast.  This has been the
              case for probably close to 100 years.
               
              This is not so much on the local level as
              in the national level for instance the actual
              number of our boys over in the middle east who have been killed which is thousands and not the hundred that
              are reported.  Not long ago I read that
              a grave was found with hundreds of
              US serviceman's bodies but not a boo from
              the major media here. I have found that the
              foreign news will report what the U.S
              media will not touch which is in many
              cases the truth.  How many people actually go to foreign newspapers and
              read articles only to find a lot of stuff
              that was sorely missing from the news
              here at home.
               
              I often wonder if the opposite is true.
               
              s.a.m
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 4:04 PM
              Subject: [oldright] Visit BREAKING ALL THE RULES http://batr.org Re: Visit BREAKING ALL THE RULES http://batr.org First time post and DON'T know WHY I'm here!LOL


              Then what you saying, Sam...is that it's ALL LIES -- what the media
              prints and reads off their prepared scripts?

              Buddie

              --- In oldright@yahoogroups.com, "sam" <mugwump@h...> wrote:
              > ....report the news as they see it before
              > it is twisted and distorted by their
              > editors!!!
              >
              >
              >   ----- Original Message -----
              >   From: buddiebuddiee
              >   To: oldright@yahoogroups.com
              >   Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 1:30 PM
              >   Subject: [oldright] Visit BREAKING ALL THE RULES http://batr.org
              First time post and DON'T know WHY I'm here!LOL
              >
              >
              >
              >   You are ALL intellectuals here with many Doctor/ed degrees ;) and
              >   some BSers here...no? ;)
              >
              >   My MAJOR beef is with the MAINSTREAM MEDIA..
              >
              >   What is the MAIN job of a reporter/journalist? Anyone here care
              to
              >   enlighten me?
              >
              >   TIA
              >
              >   Buddie
              >
              >
              >         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
              >               ADVERTISEMENT
              >             
              >       
              >       
              >
              >   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              >   oldright-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              >
              >
              >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
              Service.



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            • buddiebuddiee
              Forgive me Steve...Am a female and a Scorpio to boot and we emotional type..ok? :) WHY are you throwing in Ben Franklin and Jesus and other fables here? Just
              Message 6 of 14 , Sep 16 3:04 PM
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                Forgive me Steve...Am a female and a Scorpio to boot and we emotional
                type..ok? :)

                WHY are you throwing in Ben Franklin and Jesus and other fables here?
                Just cause THEY SUPPOSEDLY said so? Steve..YOU HAVE BEEN PROGRAMMED
                to think the so-called PAST is the PRESENT. Am going to be jumping
                from one subject to another...I post what comes out of my head.
                Sorry, but am NOT like the rest of you here. I like to QUESTION
                things and people and am NOT intimidated by people's ranks and
                statures in life. I was brought up in a Christian home, daddy was a
                preacher man. I know what religion is all about and it ain't pretty.
                It's ANOTHER way of ENSLAVING people through their BELIEF system. If
                one does NOT think like the majority -- one is ostracized. I believe
                in a higher being -- Someone or something created us as human
                flesh...OR maybe EACH ONE OF US IS A GOD and WE DON'T KNOW IT????
                History is constanlty being re-written and so has the holy
                bible/scriptures. Just like MAINSTREAM Media writes LIES these days --
                what makes you think HIS-tory isn't BASED on LIES? In THOSE days
                there was NO internet and people relied on other's word-of-mouth
                tales.

                As to taxes? How about LOTTERIES? It's SIMPLE and there's NO THREAT
                from the GESTAPO IRS to hand over one's hard-earned money. It's time
                for the IRS GESTAPO to get a real job...no? and NOT live off people's
                FEARS. Something WRONG when people FEAR the IRS MORE than they fear
                the police, etc.

                I'm a simple minded person and can't take too much programming in one
                take. :) I like to keep things SIMPLE.

                Buddie

                --- In oldright@yahoogroups.com, Steven Laib <slaib@e...> wrote:
                > Consider,
                >
                > I was invited to join this group in part because of my demonstrated
                > ability. Sartre
                > and I have crossed words on occasion because we disagree, but we do
                it
                > cordially, and
                > without overt emotional overtones. We also take the time to read
                each
                > other's notes and
                > make sure we understand each other before going off half cocked.
                >
                > I expect, perhaps wrongly, that others take the time and care that
                I do
                > in forming
                > conclusions before writing back. After years of intellectual
                discussion
                > with people
                > of all ranks and education levels I've found that it is a bad idea
                to
                > form any conclusions
                > too fast and then act on them without thinking.
                >
                > Now consider that even Ben Franklin said that taxes are the price
                we pay
                > for civilization.
                > Jesus said that we should render unto Caesar what is Caesar's.
                Tithing
                > has been a constant
                > in the Bible, and in other societies where religion plays a
                significant
                > role.
                >
                > These are two starting points for the position that some level of
                > taxation can be considered
                > legitimate. Of course, I could assume that you are an atheist, or
                > anarchist, but I might be
                > wrong. Most people I know would agree that government can serve
                some
                > legitimate
                > service, therefore, it is necessary to find some source of
                funding. If
                > you have a better
                > idea than taxation, tell me what it is and I'll listen.
                >
                > Finally, if I did take the rest of what you wrote seriously, I'd
                have to
                > write you off as
                > a less than serious participant in this group, and simply ignore
                what
                > you had to say.
                > That would be a shame for both of us.
                >
                > Cordially,
                >
                > Steve Laib
                >
                > buddiebuddiee wrote:
                >
                > >
                > > Ya..You caught me alright. ;) I have a tendency to speedread. :)
                > >
                > > "Fortunately"???LOL...Why you saying that? Just curious...ok?
                > >
                > > Buddie
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In oldright@yahoogroups.com, Steven Laib <slaib@e...> wrote:
                > > > Buddie,
                > > >
                > > > I hate to say this, but you haven't been paying attention.
                > > >
                > > > I said that the IRS should have the burden of proof, but I
                didn't
                > > say
                > > > anything about
                > > > the citizen having to provide records. Besides, in most
                instances,
                > > the
                > > > citizen has the
                > > > reciepts and the IRS says they don't and wants them produced.
                > > >
                > > > Fortunately, I don't take the rest of your post seriously.
                > > >
                > > > Steve Laib
                > > >
                > > > buddiebuddiee wrote:
                > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > "My contention is that the Treasury Dept. / IRS carries the
                > > burden of
                > > > > proof and not the citizen. "
                > > > >
                > > > > Steve..You stating that the IRS carries the "burden" of
                proof???
                > > > > HELLO???? WHY should any peon keep receipts about themselves
                that
                > > > > would be USED AGAINST them??
                > > > >
                > > > > INCOME TAX = SLAVERY -- plain & simple!! It's a CONTROL
                mechanism
                > > and
                > > > > and EXTORTION!!!
                > > > >
                > > > > Governments are SERVANTS of the people and pray tell -- WHEN
                have
                > > the
                > > > > SERVANTS become the MASTERS and the People their Servants?
                > > > >
                > > > > And pleeeaaaazzze...DON'T talk about "paying one's share" --
                > > THAT's a
                > > > > lot of BS!!! Why is it that people LOVE slavery and DON'T want
                > > OTHERS
                > > > > to get out of THIS prison?
                > > > >
                > > > > We've been PROGRAMMED from the day we born to ACCEPT
                authority and
                > > > > NOT question ANYTHING OR ANYBODY!
                > > > >
                > > > > Buddie
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > --- In oldright@yahoogroups.com, Steven Laib <slaib@e...>
                wrote:
                > > > > > Buddie,
                > > > > >
                > > > > > This is a difficult question to answer. What I believe at
                > > bottom
                > > > > line
                > > > > > is that government believes that
                > > > > > it has the right to tax people and to use the IRS as its
                agency
                > > to
                > > > > do so
                > > > > > with respect to the federal
                > > > > > income tax. Actually, over the years I have collected a
                lot of
                > > > > > information on what I call the
                > > > > > Lore and Legend of the Income Tax Protest Movement. After
                > > > > examining a
                > > > > > lot of it in detail I
                > > > > > have had to throw some of it out totally. For example, the
                > > > > suggestion
                > > > > > that people are citizens of their
                > > > > > state, and not of the United States. It simply doesn't
                work.
                > > > > However,
                > > > > > there are other arguments which
                > > > > > might have merit, but are not addressed by the courts or the
                > > > > government.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > My major issue is not whether the income tax is legal, but
                > > whether
                > > > > it is
                > > > > > enforced in a legal fashion.
                > > > > > My contention is that the Treasury Dept. / IRS carries the
                > > burden
                > > > > of
                > > > > > proof and not the citizen.
                > > > > > Otherwise the citizen is placed in a position of inequity
                > > similar
                > > > > to
                > > > > > that which caused the courts
                > > > > > to rule against contracts of adhesion.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > The government position is to hide behind the myth that
                most tax
                > > > > > proceedings are civil, rather than
                > > > > > criminal matters, but that is not relevant. Even in civil
                > > matters
                > > > > the
                > > > > > person making the contention has
                > > > > > the burden of proof. If the IRS says you owe the tax then
                they
                > > > > must
                > > > > > show how and why.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > You may want to look at a short piece I have coming up on
                > > > > > Intellectualconservative.com in the next
                > > > > > few days.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > I'm originally from Berzerkly Calif. One parent German and
                the
                > > > > other
                > > > > > Canadian but naturalized
                > > > > > American by serving with the US army in WW 2.
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Steve Laib
                > > > > >
                > > > > > buddiebuddiee wrote:
                > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Steve? You are American, I gather. The IRS. You believe
                they
                > > have
                > > > > the
                > > > > > > authority to tax people? And do you believe that Income
                Tax is
                > > > > > > Legal/ILLEGAL?
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Am Canadian...Europen-born.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Buddie
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > --- In oldright@yahoogroups.com, Steven Laib <slaib@e...>
                > > wrote:
                > > > > > > > Do they actually investigate is an excellent question.
                One
                > > > > might
                > > > > > > also
                > > > > > > > ask if they investigate only to
                > > > > > > > confirm previously held beliefs, or do they go all the
                way
                > > to
                > > > > find
                > > > > > > out
                > > > > > > > if they are correct in those
                > > > > > > > beliefs.
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > Since I do commentary, my duty is not to present only
                the
                > > facts,
                > > > > > > but my
                > > > > > > > thinking concerning them.
                > > > > > > > When I wrote on exclusively tax law developments, years
                > > ago, I
                > > > > had
                > > > > > > a
                > > > > > > > significant duty to be accurate
                > > > > > > > in my presentation of what changes had occurred. My
                > > comments
                > > > > were
                > > > > > > my
                > > > > > > > own thinking and were
                > > > > > > > expected to get people to investigate and draw their own
                > > > > > > conclusions.
                > > > > > > > This should be extremely
                > > > > > > > important in complex areas where people don't often know
                > > what is
                > > > > > > > happening. I recall some
                > > > > > > > items in the Tax Act of 1986 which did exactly the
                opposite
                > > of
                > > > > what
                > > > > > > the
                > > > > > > > legislature wanted and
                > > > > > > > had to be rewritten. Thus, it pays to be very careful.
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > Steve Laib
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > buddiebuddiee wrote:
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > > Sartre -- And do they ACTUALLY investigate?? Or they
                given
                > > > > already
                > > > > > > > > PREPARED scripts to mouth off on television and in
                print?!
                > > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > > Buddie
                > > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > > --- In oldright@yahoogroups.com, "sartrejp"
                > > <sartrejp@f...>
                > > > > wrote:
                > > > > > > > > > Buddie,
                > > > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > > > How about investigating and reporting facts! The
                role
                > > of the
                > > > > > > > > commentator is
                > > > > > > > > > to offer an explanation for their significance.
                > > > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > > > SARTRE
                > > > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > > > > > > > > From: "buddiebuddiee" <Buddie29@h...>
                > > > > > > > > > To: <oldright@yahoogroups.com>
                > > > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 2:30 PM
                > > > > > > > > > Subject: [oldright] Visit BREAKING ALL THE RULES
                > > > > http://batr.org
                > > > > > > > > First time
                > > > > > > > > > post and DON'T know WHY I'm here!LOL
                > > > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > > > > You are ALL intellectuals here with many Doctor/ed
                > > > > degrees ;)
                > > > > > > and
                > > > > > > > > > > some BSers here...no? ;)
                > > > > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > > > > My MAJOR beef is with the MAINSTREAM MEDIA..
                > > > > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > > > > What is the MAIN job of a reporter/journalist?
                Anyone
                > > here
                > > > > > > care to
                > > > > > > > > > > enlighten me?
                > > > > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > > > > TIA
                > > > > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > > > > Buddie
                > > > > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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              • buddiebuddiee
                Yes..But just how many of the people can actually can read in the USA, S.A.M.? That s the reason Bush & Crooks, Inc. were able to get the people behind in
                Message 7 of 14 , Sep 16 3:25 PM
                • 0 Attachment
                  Yes..But just how many of the people can actually can read in the
                  USA, S.A.M.? That's the reason Bush & Crooks, Inc. were able to get
                  the people behind in going to War against Iraq. They DEPEND on
                  TELEVISION -- CNN and FOX and NBC, ABC, CBS, etc., their PARTNERS-IN-
                  CRIME, to HOODWINK the public who's too burdened with taxes and just
                  making a living to care about the lives in some 3rd world country.

                  Buddie
                  Here's Pentagon's Mass Graves for the American soldiers link:

                  http://www.truthout.org/docs_02/012603A.mass.graves.htm




                  The MASS graves -- Pentagon

                  --- In oldright@yahoogroups.com, "sam" <mugwump@h...> wrote:
                  > If the reporter on the scene is HONEST
                  > he reports what he sees etc. However
                  > when he turns his story into his editor
                  > who has been bought and paid for by the
                  > powers that be, his original story has
                  > bee boiled down to what his boss is
                  > allowed to broadcast. This has been the
                  > case for probably close to 100 years.
                  >
                  > This is not so much on the local level as
                  > in the national level for instance the actual
                  > number of our boys over in the middle east who have been killed
                  which is thousands and not the hundred that
                  > are reported. Not long ago I read that
                  > a grave was found with hundreds of
                  > US serviceman's bodies but not a boo from
                  > the major media here. I have found that the
                  > foreign news will report what the U.S
                  > media will not touch which is in many
                  > cases the truth. How many people actually go to foreign newspapers
                  and
                  > read articles only to find a lot of stuff
                  > that was sorely missing from the news
                  > here at home.
                  >
                  > I often wonder if the opposite is true.
                  >
                  > s.a.m
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: buddiebuddiee
                  > To: oldright@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 4:04 PM
                  > Subject: [oldright] Visit BREAKING ALL THE RULES http://batr.org
                  Re: Visit BREAKING ALL THE RULES http://batr.org First time post and
                  DON'T know WHY I'm here!LOL
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Then what you saying, Sam...is that it's ALL LIES -- what the
                  media
                  > prints and reads off their prepared scripts?
                  >
                  > Buddie
                  >
                  > --- In oldright@yahoogroups.com, "sam" <mugwump@h...> wrote:
                  > > ....report the news as they see it before
                  > > it is twisted and distorted by their
                  > > editors!!!
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > From: buddiebuddiee
                  > > To: oldright@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 1:30 PM
                  > > Subject: [oldright] Visit BREAKING ALL THE RULES
                  http://batr.org
                  > First time post and DON'T know WHY I'm here!LOL
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > You are ALL intellectuals here with many Doctor/ed degrees ;)
                  and
                  > > some BSers here...no? ;)
                  > >
                  > > My MAJOR beef is with the MAINSTREAM MEDIA..
                  > >
                  > > What is the MAIN job of a reporter/journalist? Anyone here
                  care
                  > to
                  > > enlighten me?
                  > >
                  > > TIA
                  > >
                  > > Buddie
                  > >
                  > >
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