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Re: [oldright] Visit BREAKING ALL THE RULES http://batr.org Visit BREAKING ALL THE RULES http://batr.org Re: Visit BREAKING ALL THE RULES http://batr.org First time post and DON'T know WHY I'm here!LOL

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  • Steven Laib
    Buddie, This is a difficult question to answer. What I believe at bottom line is that government believes that it has the right to tax people and to use the
    Message 1 of 14 , Sep 16, 2003
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      Buddie,

      This is a difficult question to answer.  What I believe at bottom line is that government believes that
      it has the right to tax people and to use the IRS as its agency to do so with respect to the federal
      income tax.  Actually, over the years I have collected a lot of information on what I call the
      Lore and Legend of the Income Tax Protest Movement.  After examining a lot of it in detail I
      have had to throw some of it out totally.  For example, the suggestion that people are citizens of their
      state, and not of the United States.  It simply doesn't work.  However, there are other arguments which
      might have merit, but are not addressed by the courts or the government. 

      My major issue is not whether the income tax is legal, but whether it is enforced in a legal fashion. 
      My contention is that the Treasury Dept. / IRS carries the burden of proof and not the citizen. 
      Otherwise the citizen is placed in a position of inequity similar to that which caused the courts
      to rule against contracts of adhesion. 

      The government position is to hide behind the myth that most tax proceedings are civil, rather than
      criminal matters, but that is not relevant.  Even in civil matters the person making the contention has
      the burden of proof.  If the IRS says you owe the tax then they must show how and why. 

      You may want to look at a short piece I have coming up on Intellectualconservative.com in the next
      few days. 

      I'm originally from Berzerkly Calif.  One parent German and the other Canadian but naturalized
      American by serving with the US army in WW 2.


      Steve Laib

      buddiebuddiee wrote:

      Steve? You are American, I gather. The IRS. You believe they have the
      authority to tax people? And do you believe that Income Tax is
      Legal/ILLEGAL?

      Am Canadian...Europen-born.

      Buddie

      --- In oldright@yahoogroups.com, Steven Laib <slaib@e...> wrote:
      > Do they actually investigate is an excellent question.  One might
      also
      > ask if they investigate only to
      > confirm previously held beliefs, or do they go all the way to find
      out
      > if they are correct in those
      > beliefs.
      >
      > Since I do commentary, my duty is not to present only the facts,
      but my
      > thinking concerning them.
      > When I wrote on exclusively tax law developments, years ago,  I had
      a
      > significant duty to be accurate
      > in my presentation of what  changes had occurred.  My comments were
      my
      > own thinking and were
      > expected to get people to investigate and draw their own
      conclusions. 
      > This should be extremely
      > important in complex areas where people don't often know what is
      > happening.  I recall some
      > items in the Tax Act of 1986 which did exactly the opposite of what
      the
      > legislature wanted and
      > had to be rewritten.  Thus, it pays to be very careful.
      >
      > Steve Laib
      >
      > buddiebuddiee wrote:
      >
      > >
      > > Sartre -- And do they ACTUALLY investigate?? Or they given already
      > > PREPARED scripts to mouth off on television and in print?!
      > >
      > > Buddie
      > >
      > > --- In oldright@yahoogroups.com, "sartrejp" <sartrejp@f...> wrote:
      > > > Buddie,
      > > >
      > > > How about investigating and reporting facts! The role of the
      > > commentator is
      > > > to offer an explanation for their significance.
      > > >
      > > > SARTRE
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > > From: "buddiebuddiee" <Buddie29@h...>
      > > > To: <oldright@yahoogroups.com>
      > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 2:30 PM
      > > > Subject: [oldright] Visit BREAKING ALL THE RULES http://batr.org
      > > First time
      > > > post and DON'T know WHY I'm here!LOL
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > You are ALL intellectuals here with many Doctor/ed degrees ;)
      and
      > > > > some BSers here...no? ;)
      > > > >
      > > > > My MAJOR beef is with the MAINSTREAM MEDIA..
      > > > >
      > > > > What is the MAIN job of a reporter/journalist? Anyone here
      care to
      > > > > enlighten me?
      > > > >
      > > > > TIA
      > > > >
      > > > > Buddie
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > > > > oldright-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
      > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
      > > ADVERTISEMENT
      > >
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      fm?code=30509&media=atkins>
      > >
      > >
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    • buddiebuddiee
      My contention is that the Treasury Dept. / IRS carries the burden of proof and not the citizen. Steve..You stating that the IRS carries the burden of
      Message 2 of 14 , Sep 16, 2003
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        "My contention is that the Treasury Dept. / IRS carries the burden of
        proof and not the citizen. "

        Steve..You stating that the IRS carries the "burden" of proof???
        HELLO???? WHY should any peon keep receipts about themselves that
        would be USED AGAINST them??

        INCOME TAX = SLAVERY -- plain & simple!! It's a CONTROL mechanism and
        and EXTORTION!!!

        Governments are SERVANTS of the people and pray tell -- WHEN have the
        SERVANTS become the MASTERS and the People their Servants?

        And pleeeaaaazzze...DON'T talk about "paying one's share" -- THAT's a
        lot of BS!!! Why is it that people LOVE slavery and DON'T want OTHERS
        to get out of THIS prison?

        We've been PROGRAMMED from the day we born to ACCEPT authority and
        NOT question ANYTHING OR ANYBODY!

        Buddie




        --- In oldright@yahoogroups.com, Steven Laib <slaib@e...> wrote:
        > Buddie,
        >
        > This is a difficult question to answer. What I believe at bottom
        line
        > is that government believes that
        > it has the right to tax people and to use the IRS as its agency to
        do so
        > with respect to the federal
        > income tax. Actually, over the years I have collected a lot of
        > information on what I call the
        > Lore and Legend of the Income Tax Protest Movement. After
        examining a
        > lot of it in detail I
        > have had to throw some of it out totally. For example, the
        suggestion
        > that people are citizens of their
        > state, and not of the United States. It simply doesn't work.
        However,
        > there are other arguments which
        > might have merit, but are not addressed by the courts or the
        government.
        >
        > My major issue is not whether the income tax is legal, but whether
        it is
        > enforced in a legal fashion.
        > My contention is that the Treasury Dept. / IRS carries the burden
        of
        > proof and not the citizen.
        > Otherwise the citizen is placed in a position of inequity similar
        to
        > that which caused the courts
        > to rule against contracts of adhesion.
        >
        > The government position is to hide behind the myth that most tax
        > proceedings are civil, rather than
        > criminal matters, but that is not relevant. Even in civil matters
        the
        > person making the contention has
        > the burden of proof. If the IRS says you owe the tax then they
        must
        > show how and why.
        >
        > You may want to look at a short piece I have coming up on
        > Intellectualconservative.com in the next
        > few days.
        >
        > I'm originally from Berzerkly Calif. One parent German and the
        other
        > Canadian but naturalized
        > American by serving with the US army in WW 2.
        >
        >
        > Steve Laib
        >
        > buddiebuddiee wrote:
        >
        > >
        > > Steve? You are American, I gather. The IRS. You believe they have
        the
        > > authority to tax people? And do you believe that Income Tax is
        > > Legal/ILLEGAL?
        > >
        > > Am Canadian...Europen-born.
        > >
        > > Buddie
        > >
        > > --- In oldright@yahoogroups.com, Steven Laib <slaib@e...> wrote:
        > > > Do they actually investigate is an excellent question. One
        might
        > > also
        > > > ask if they investigate only to
        > > > confirm previously held beliefs, or do they go all the way to
        find
        > > out
        > > > if they are correct in those
        > > > beliefs.
        > > >
        > > > Since I do commentary, my duty is not to present only the facts,
        > > but my
        > > > thinking concerning them.
        > > > When I wrote on exclusively tax law developments, years ago, I
        had
        > > a
        > > > significant duty to be accurate
        > > > in my presentation of what changes had occurred. My comments
        were
        > > my
        > > > own thinking and were
        > > > expected to get people to investigate and draw their own
        > > conclusions.
        > > > This should be extremely
        > > > important in complex areas where people don't often know what is
        > > > happening. I recall some
        > > > items in the Tax Act of 1986 which did exactly the opposite of
        what
        > > the
        > > > legislature wanted and
        > > > had to be rewritten. Thus, it pays to be very careful.
        > > >
        > > > Steve Laib
        > > >
        > > > buddiebuddiee wrote:
        > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > Sartre -- And do they ACTUALLY investigate?? Or they given
        already
        > > > > PREPARED scripts to mouth off on television and in print?!
        > > > >
        > > > > Buddie
        > > > >
        > > > > --- In oldright@yahoogroups.com, "sartrejp" <sartrejp@f...>
        wrote:
        > > > > > Buddie,
        > > > > >
        > > > > > How about investigating and reporting facts! The role of the
        > > > > commentator is
        > > > > > to offer an explanation for their significance.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > SARTRE
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > > > > From: "buddiebuddiee" <Buddie29@h...>
        > > > > > To: <oldright@yahoogroups.com>
        > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 2:30 PM
        > > > > > Subject: [oldright] Visit BREAKING ALL THE RULES
        http://batr.org
        > > > > First time
        > > > > > post and DON'T know WHY I'm here!LOL
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > You are ALL intellectuals here with many Doctor/ed
        degrees ;)
        > > and
        > > > > > > some BSers here...no? ;)
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > My MAJOR beef is with the MAINSTREAM MEDIA..
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > What is the MAIN job of a reporter/journalist? Anyone here
        > > care to
        > > > > > > enlighten me?
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > TIA
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Buddie
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > > > > > > oldright-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
        > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
        > > > > ADVERTISEMENT
        > > > >
        > >
        <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=194081.3897168.5135684.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=17
        > >
        05060375:HM/A=1732161/R=0/SIG=11p5b9ris/*http://www.ediets.com/start.c
        > > fm?code=30509&media=atkins>
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > > > > oldright-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
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        > > Service
        > > > > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
        > >
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        > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
        > > ADVERTISEMENT
        > >
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        fm?code=30510&media=zone>
        > >
        > >
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        > > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
      • sam
        ....report the news as they see it before it is twisted and distorted by their editors!!! ... From: buddiebuddiee To: oldright@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday,
        Message 3 of 14 , Sep 16, 2003
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          ....report the news as they see it before
          it is twisted and distorted by their
          editors!!!
           
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 1:30 PM
          Subject: [oldright] Visit BREAKING ALL THE RULES http://batr.org First time post and DON'T know WHY I'm here!LOL


          You are ALL intellectuals here with many Doctor/ed degrees ;) and
          some BSers here...no? ;)

          My MAJOR beef is with the MAINSTREAM MEDIA..

          What is the MAIN job of a reporter/journalist? Anyone here care to
          enlighten me?

          TIA

          Buddie



          To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          oldright-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
        • Steven Laib
          Buddie, I hate to say this, but you haven t been paying attention. I said that the IRS should have the burden of proof, but I didn t say anything about the
          Message 4 of 14 , Sep 16, 2003
          • 0 Attachment
            Buddie,

            I hate to say this, but you haven't been paying attention. 

            I said that the IRS should have the burden of proof, but I didn't say anything about
            the citizen having to provide records.  Besides, in most instances, the citizen has the
            reciepts and the IRS says they don't and wants them produced. 

            Fortunately, I don't take the rest of your post seriously.

            Steve Laib

            buddiebuddiee wrote:

            "My contention is that the Treasury Dept. / IRS carries the burden of
            proof and not the citizen. "

            Steve..You stating that the IRS carries the "burden" of proof???
            HELLO???? WHY should any  peon keep receipts about themselves that
            would be USED AGAINST them??

            INCOME TAX = SLAVERY -- plain & simple!! It's a CONTROL mechanism and
            and EXTORTION!!!

            Governments are SERVANTS of the people and pray tell -- WHEN have the
            SERVANTS  become the MASTERS and the People their Servants?

            And pleeeaaaazzze...DON'T talk about "paying one's share" -- THAT's a
            lot of BS!!! Why is it that people LOVE slavery and DON'T want OTHERS
            to get out of THIS prison?

            We've been PROGRAMMED from the day we born to ACCEPT authority and
            NOT question ANYTHING OR ANYBODY!

            Buddie




            --- In oldright@yahoogroups.com, Steven Laib <slaib@e...> wrote:
            > Buddie,
            >
            > This is a difficult question to answer.  What I believe at bottom
            line
            > is that government believes that
            > it has the right to tax people and to use the IRS as its agency to
            do so
            > with respect to the federal
            > income tax.  Actually, over the years I have collected a lot of
            > information on what I call the
            > Lore and Legend of the Income Tax Protest Movement.  After
            examining a
            > lot of it in detail I
            > have had to throw some of it out totally.  For example, the
            suggestion
            > that people are citizens of their
            > state, and not of the United States.  It simply doesn't work. 
            However,
            > there are other arguments which
            > might have merit, but are not addressed by the courts or the
            government.
            >
            > My major issue is not whether the income tax is legal, but whether
            it is
            > enforced in a legal fashion.
            > My contention is that the Treasury Dept. / IRS carries the burden
            of
            > proof and not the citizen.
            > Otherwise the citizen is placed in a position of inequity similar
            to
            > that which caused the courts
            > to rule against contracts of adhesion.
            >
            > The government position is to hide behind the myth that most tax
            > proceedings are civil, rather than
            > criminal matters, but that is not relevant.  Even in civil matters
            the
            > person making the contention has
            > the burden of proof.  If the IRS says you owe the tax then they
            must
            > show how and why.
            >
            > You may want to look at a short piece I have coming up on
            > Intellectualconservative.com in the next
            > few days.
            >
            > I'm originally from Berzerkly Calif.  One parent German and the
            other
            > Canadian but naturalized
            > American by serving with the US army in WW 2.
            >
            >
            > Steve Laib
            >
            > buddiebuddiee wrote:
            >
            > >
            > > Steve? You are American, I gather. The IRS. You believe they have
            the
            > > authority to tax people? And do you believe that Income Tax is
            > > Legal/ILLEGAL?
            > >
            > > Am Canadian...Europen-born.
            > >
            > > Buddie
            > >
            > > --- In oldright@yahoogroups.com, Steven Laib <slaib@e...> wrote:
            > > > Do they actually investigate is an excellent question.  One
            might
            > > also
            > > > ask if they investigate only to
            > > > confirm previously held beliefs, or do they go all the way to
            find
            > > out
            > > > if they are correct in those
            > > > beliefs.
            > > >
            > > > Since I do commentary, my duty is not to present only the facts,
            > > but my
            > > > thinking concerning them.
            > > > When I wrote on exclusively tax law developments, years ago,  I
            had
            > > a
            > > > significant duty to be accurate
            > > > in my presentation of what  changes had occurred.  My comments
            were
            > > my
            > > > own thinking and were
            > > > expected to get people to investigate and draw their own
            > > conclusions.
            > > > This should be extremely
            > > > important in complex areas where people don't often know what is
            > > > happening.  I recall some
            > > > items in the Tax Act of 1986 which did exactly the opposite of
            what
            > > the
            > > > legislature wanted and
            > > > had to be rewritten.  Thus, it pays to be very careful.
            > > >
            > > > Steve Laib
            > > >
            > > > buddiebuddiee wrote:
            > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > Sartre -- And do they ACTUALLY investigate?? Or they given
            already
            > > > > PREPARED scripts to mouth off on television and in print?!
            > > > >
            > > > > Buddie
            > > > >
            > > > > --- In oldright@yahoogroups.com, "sartrejp" <sartrejp@f...>
            wrote:
            > > > > > Buddie,
            > > > > >
            > > > > > How about investigating and reporting facts! The role of the
            > > > > commentator is
            > > > > > to offer an explanation for their significance.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > SARTRE
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > > > > From: "buddiebuddiee" <Buddie29@h...>
            > > > > > To: <oldright@yahoogroups.com>
            > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 2:30 PM
            > > > > > Subject: [oldright] Visit BREAKING ALL THE RULES
            http://batr.org
            > > > > First time
            > > > > > post and DON'T know WHY I'm here!LOL
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > You are ALL intellectuals here with many Doctor/ed
            degrees ;)
            > > and
            > > > > > > some BSers here...no? ;)
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > My MAJOR beef is with the MAINSTREAM MEDIA..
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > What is the MAIN job of a reporter/journalist? Anyone here
            > > care to
            > > > > > > enlighten me?
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > TIA
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > Buddie
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > > > > > > oldright-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
            > > > > ADVERTISEMENT
            > > > >
            > >
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            > >
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            > > fm?code=30509&media=atkins>
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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            > > > >
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            > > Service
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            > >
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          • buddiebuddiee
            Then what you saying, Sam...is that it s ALL LIES -- what the media prints and reads off their prepared scripts? Buddie ... First time post and DON T know WHY
            Message 5 of 14 , Sep 16, 2003
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              Then what you saying, Sam...is that it's ALL LIES -- what the media
              prints and reads off their prepared scripts?

              Buddie

              --- In oldright@yahoogroups.com, "sam" <mugwump@h...> wrote:
              > ....report the news as they see it before
              > it is twisted and distorted by their
              > editors!!!
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: buddiebuddiee
              > To: oldright@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 1:30 PM
              > Subject: [oldright] Visit BREAKING ALL THE RULES http://batr.org
              First time post and DON'T know WHY I'm here!LOL
              >
              >
              >
              > You are ALL intellectuals here with many Doctor/ed degrees ;) and
              > some BSers here...no? ;)
              >
              > My MAJOR beef is with the MAINSTREAM MEDIA..
              >
              > What is the MAIN job of a reporter/journalist? Anyone here care
              to
              > enlighten me?
              >
              > TIA
              >
              > Buddie
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
              > ADVERTISEMENT
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > oldright-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              >
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
              Service.
            • buddiebuddiee
              Ya..You caught me alright. ;) I have a tendency to speedread. :) Fortunately ???LOL...Why you saying that? Just curious...ok? Buddie ... say ... the ...
              Message 6 of 14 , Sep 16, 2003
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                Ya..You caught me alright. ;) I have a tendency to speedread. :)

                "Fortunately"???LOL...Why you saying that? Just curious...ok?

                Buddie


                --- In oldright@yahoogroups.com, Steven Laib <slaib@e...> wrote:
                > Buddie,
                >
                > I hate to say this, but you haven't been paying attention.
                >
                > I said that the IRS should have the burden of proof, but I didn't
                say
                > anything about
                > the citizen having to provide records. Besides, in most instances,
                the
                > citizen has the
                > reciepts and the IRS says they don't and wants them produced.
                >
                > Fortunately, I don't take the rest of your post seriously.
                >
                > Steve Laib
                >
                > buddiebuddiee wrote:
                >
                > >
                > > "My contention is that the Treasury Dept. / IRS carries the
                burden of
                > > proof and not the citizen. "
                > >
                > > Steve..You stating that the IRS carries the "burden" of proof???
                > > HELLO???? WHY should any peon keep receipts about themselves that
                > > would be USED AGAINST them??
                > >
                > > INCOME TAX = SLAVERY -- plain & simple!! It's a CONTROL mechanism
                and
                > > and EXTORTION!!!
                > >
                > > Governments are SERVANTS of the people and pray tell -- WHEN have
                the
                > > SERVANTS become the MASTERS and the People their Servants?
                > >
                > > And pleeeaaaazzze...DON'T talk about "paying one's share" --
                THAT's a
                > > lot of BS!!! Why is it that people LOVE slavery and DON'T want
                OTHERS
                > > to get out of THIS prison?
                > >
                > > We've been PROGRAMMED from the day we born to ACCEPT authority and
                > > NOT question ANYTHING OR ANYBODY!
                > >
                > > Buddie
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In oldright@yahoogroups.com, Steven Laib <slaib@e...> wrote:
                > > > Buddie,
                > > >
                > > > This is a difficult question to answer. What I believe at
                bottom
                > > line
                > > > is that government believes that
                > > > it has the right to tax people and to use the IRS as its agency
                to
                > > do so
                > > > with respect to the federal
                > > > income tax. Actually, over the years I have collected a lot of
                > > > information on what I call the
                > > > Lore and Legend of the Income Tax Protest Movement. After
                > > examining a
                > > > lot of it in detail I
                > > > have had to throw some of it out totally. For example, the
                > > suggestion
                > > > that people are citizens of their
                > > > state, and not of the United States. It simply doesn't work.
                > > However,
                > > > there are other arguments which
                > > > might have merit, but are not addressed by the courts or the
                > > government.
                > > >
                > > > My major issue is not whether the income tax is legal, but
                whether
                > > it is
                > > > enforced in a legal fashion.
                > > > My contention is that the Treasury Dept. / IRS carries the
                burden
                > > of
                > > > proof and not the citizen.
                > > > Otherwise the citizen is placed in a position of inequity
                similar
                > > to
                > > > that which caused the courts
                > > > to rule against contracts of adhesion.
                > > >
                > > > The government position is to hide behind the myth that most tax
                > > > proceedings are civil, rather than
                > > > criminal matters, but that is not relevant. Even in civil
                matters
                > > the
                > > > person making the contention has
                > > > the burden of proof. If the IRS says you owe the tax then they
                > > must
                > > > show how and why.
                > > >
                > > > You may want to look at a short piece I have coming up on
                > > > Intellectualconservative.com in the next
                > > > few days.
                > > >
                > > > I'm originally from Berzerkly Calif. One parent German and the
                > > other
                > > > Canadian but naturalized
                > > > American by serving with the US army in WW 2.
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Steve Laib
                > > >
                > > > buddiebuddiee wrote:
                > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > Steve? You are American, I gather. The IRS. You believe they
                have
                > > the
                > > > > authority to tax people? And do you believe that Income Tax is
                > > > > Legal/ILLEGAL?
                > > > >
                > > > > Am Canadian...Europen-born.
                > > > >
                > > > > Buddie
                > > > >
                > > > > --- In oldright@yahoogroups.com, Steven Laib <slaib@e...>
                wrote:
                > > > > > Do they actually investigate is an excellent question. One
                > > might
                > > > > also
                > > > > > ask if they investigate only to
                > > > > > confirm previously held beliefs, or do they go all the way
                to
                > > find
                > > > > out
                > > > > > if they are correct in those
                > > > > > beliefs.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Since I do commentary, my duty is not to present only the
                facts,
                > > > > but my
                > > > > > thinking concerning them.
                > > > > > When I wrote on exclusively tax law developments, years
                ago, I
                > > had
                > > > > a
                > > > > > significant duty to be accurate
                > > > > > in my presentation of what changes had occurred. My
                comments
                > > were
                > > > > my
                > > > > > own thinking and were
                > > > > > expected to get people to investigate and draw their own
                > > > > conclusions.
                > > > > > This should be extremely
                > > > > > important in complex areas where people don't often know
                what is
                > > > > > happening. I recall some
                > > > > > items in the Tax Act of 1986 which did exactly the opposite
                of
                > > what
                > > > > the
                > > > > > legislature wanted and
                > > > > > had to be rewritten. Thus, it pays to be very careful.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Steve Laib
                > > > > >
                > > > > > buddiebuddiee wrote:
                > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Sartre -- And do they ACTUALLY investigate?? Or they given
                > > already
                > > > > > > PREPARED scripts to mouth off on television and in print?!
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Buddie
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > --- In oldright@yahoogroups.com, "sartrejp"
                <sartrejp@f...>
                > > wrote:
                > > > > > > > Buddie,
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > How about investigating and reporting facts! The role
                of the
                > > > > > > commentator is
                > > > > > > > to offer an explanation for their significance.
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > SARTRE
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > > > > > > From: "buddiebuddiee" <Buddie29@h...>
                > > > > > > > To: <oldright@yahoogroups.com>
                > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 2:30 PM
                > > > > > > > Subject: [oldright] Visit BREAKING ALL THE RULES
                > > http://batr.org
                > > > > > > First time
                > > > > > > > post and DON'T know WHY I'm here!LOL
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > > You are ALL intellectuals here with many Doctor/ed
                > > degrees ;)
                > > > > and
                > > > > > > > > some BSers here...no? ;)
                > > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > > My MAJOR beef is with the MAINSTREAM MEDIA..
                > > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > > What is the MAIN job of a reporter/journalist? Anyone
                here
                > > > > care to
                > > > > > > > > enlighten me?
                > > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > > TIA
                > > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > > Buddie
                > > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > > > > > > > > oldright-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                > > > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                > > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                > > > > > > ADVERTISEMENT
                > > > > > >
                > > > >
                > >
                <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=194081.3897168.5135684.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=17
                > > > >
                > >
                05060375:HM/A=1732161/R=0/SIG=11p5b9ris/*http://www.ediets.com/start.c
                > > > > fm?code=30509&media=atkins>
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > > > > > > oldright-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
                of
                > > > > Service
                > > > > > > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                > > > > ADVERTISEMENT
                > > > >
                > >
                <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=194081.3897168.5135684.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=17
                > >
                05060375:HM/A=1732163/R=0/SIG=11n0nglqg/*http://www.ediets.com/start.c
                > > fm?code=30510&media=zone>
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > > > > oldright-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                > > Service
                > > > > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                > >
                > >
                > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                > > ADVERTISEMENT
                > >
                <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=194081.3897168.5135684.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=17
                05060375:HM/A=1732163/R=0/SIG=11n0nglqg/*http://www.ediets.com/start.c
                fm?code=30510&media=zone>
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > > oldright-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                Service
                > > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
              • Steven Laib
                Consider, I was invited to join this group in part because of my demonstrated ability. Sartre and I have crossed words on occasion because we disagree, but we
                Message 7 of 14 , Sep 16, 2003
                • 0 Attachment
                  Consider,

                  I was invited to join this group in part because of my demonstrated ability.  Sartre
                  and I have crossed words on occasion because we disagree, but we do it cordially, and
                  without overt emotional overtones.  We also take the time to read each other's notes and
                  make sure we understand each other before going off half cocked. 

                  I expect, perhaps wrongly, that others take the time and care that I do in forming
                  conclusions before writing back.  After years of intellectual discussion with people
                  of all ranks and education levels I've found that it is a bad idea to form any conclusions
                  too fast and then act on them without thinking. 

                  Now consider that even Ben Franklin said that taxes are the price we pay for civilization. 
                  Jesus said that we should render unto Caesar what is Caesar's.  Tithing has been a constant
                  in the Bible, and in other societies where religion plays a significant role. 

                  These are two starting points for the position that some level of taxation can be considered
                  legitimate.  Of course, I could assume that you are an atheist, or anarchist, but I might be
                  wrong.  Most people I know would agree that government can serve some legitimate
                  service, therefore, it is necessary to find some source of funding.  If you have a better
                  idea than taxation, tell me what it is and I'll listen. 

                  Finally, if I did take the rest of what you wrote seriously, I'd have to write you off as
                  a less than serious participant in this group, and simply ignore what you had to say.
                  That would be a shame for both of us. 

                  Cordially,

                  Steve Laib

                  buddiebuddiee wrote:

                  Ya..You caught me alright. ;) I have a tendency to speedread. :)

                  "Fortunately"???LOL...Why you saying that? Just curious...ok?

                  Buddie


                  --- In oldright@yahoogroups.com, Steven Laib <slaib@e...> wrote:
                  > Buddie,
                  >
                  > I hate to say this, but you haven't been paying attention.
                  >
                  > I said that the IRS should have the burden of proof, but I didn't
                  say
                  > anything about
                  > the citizen having to provide records.  Besides, in most instances,
                  the
                  > citizen has the
                  > reciepts and the IRS says they don't and wants them produced.
                  >
                  > Fortunately, I don't take the rest of your post seriously.
                  >
                  > Steve Laib
                  >
                  > buddiebuddiee wrote:
                  >
                  > >
                  > > "My contention is that the Treasury Dept. / IRS carries the
                  burden of
                  > > proof and not the citizen. "
                  > >
                  > > Steve..You stating that the IRS carries the "burden" of proof???
                  > > HELLO???? WHY should any  peon keep receipts about themselves that
                  > > would be USED AGAINST them??
                  > >
                  > > INCOME TAX = SLAVERY -- plain & simple!! It's a CONTROL mechanism
                  and
                  > > and EXTORTION!!!
                  > >
                  > > Governments are SERVANTS of the people and pray tell -- WHEN have
                  the
                  > > SERVANTS  become the MASTERS and the People their Servants?
                  > >
                  > > And pleeeaaaazzze...DON'T talk about "paying one's share" --
                  THAT's a
                  > > lot of BS!!! Why is it that people LOVE slavery and DON'T want
                  OTHERS
                  > > to get out of THIS prison?
                  > >
                  > > We've been PROGRAMMED from the day we born to ACCEPT authority and
                  > > NOT question ANYTHING OR ANYBODY!
                  > >
                  > > Buddie
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In oldright@yahoogroups.com, Steven Laib <slaib@e...> wrote:
                  > > > Buddie,
                  > > >
                  > > > This is a difficult question to answer.  What I believe at
                  bottom
                  > > line
                  > > > is that government believes that
                  > > > it has the right to tax people and to use the IRS as its agency
                  to
                  > > do so
                  > > > with respect to the federal
                  > > > income tax.  Actually, over the years I have collected a lot of
                  > > > information on what I call the
                  > > > Lore and Legend of the Income Tax Protest Movement.  After
                  > > examining a
                  > > > lot of it in detail I
                  > > > have had to throw some of it out totally.  For example, the
                  > > suggestion
                  > > > that people are citizens of their
                  > > > state, and not of the United States.  It simply doesn't work.
                  > > However,
                  > > > there are other arguments which
                  > > > might have merit, but are not addressed by the courts or the
                  > > government.
                  > > >
                  > > > My major issue is not whether the income tax is legal, but
                  whether
                  > > it is
                  > > > enforced in a legal fashion.
                  > > > My contention is that the Treasury Dept. / IRS carries the
                  burden
                  > > of
                  > > > proof and not the citizen.
                  > > > Otherwise the citizen is placed in a position of inequity
                  similar
                  > > to
                  > > > that which caused the courts
                  > > > to rule against contracts of adhesion.
                  > > >
                  > > > The government position is to hide behind the myth that most tax
                  > > > proceedings are civil, rather than
                  > > > criminal matters, but that is not relevant.  Even in civil
                  matters
                  > > the
                  > > > person making the contention has
                  > > > the burden of proof.  If the IRS says you owe the tax then they
                  > > must
                  > > > show how and why.
                  > > >
                  > > > You may want to look at a short piece I have coming up on
                  > > > Intellectualconservative.com in the next
                  > > > few days.
                  > > >
                  > > > I'm originally from Berzerkly Calif.  One parent German and the
                  > > other
                  > > > Canadian but naturalized
                  > > > American by serving with the US army in WW 2.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Steve Laib
                  > > >
                  > > > buddiebuddiee wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Steve? You are American, I gather. The IRS. You believe they
                  have
                  > > the
                  > > > > authority to tax people? And do you believe that Income Tax is
                  > > > > Legal/ILLEGAL?
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Am Canadian...Europen-born.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Buddie
                  > > > >
                  > > > > --- In oldright@yahoogroups.com, Steven Laib <slaib@e...>
                  wrote:
                  > > > > > Do they actually investigate is an excellent question.  One
                  > > might
                  > > > > also
                  > > > > > ask if they investigate only to
                  > > > > > confirm previously held beliefs, or do they go all the way
                  to
                  > > find
                  > > > > out
                  > > > > > if they are correct in those
                  > > > > > beliefs.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Since I do commentary, my duty is not to present only the
                  facts,
                  > > > > but my
                  > > > > > thinking concerning them.
                  > > > > > When I wrote on exclusively tax law developments, years
                  ago,  I
                  > > had
                  > > > > a
                  > > > > > significant duty to be accurate
                  > > > > > in my presentation of what  changes had occurred.  My
                  comments
                  > > were
                  > > > > my
                  > > > > > own thinking and were
                  > > > > > expected to get people to investigate and draw their own
                  > > > > conclusions.
                  > > > > > This should be extremely
                  > > > > > important in complex areas where people don't often know
                  what is
                  > > > > > happening.  I recall some
                  > > > > > items in the Tax Act of 1986 which did exactly the opposite
                  of
                  > > what
                  > > > > the
                  > > > > > legislature wanted and
                  > > > > > had to be rewritten.  Thus, it pays to be very careful.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Steve Laib
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > buddiebuddiee wrote:
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > Sartre -- And do they ACTUALLY investigate?? Or they given
                  > > already
                  > > > > > > PREPARED scripts to mouth off on television and in print?!
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > Buddie
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > --- In oldright@yahoogroups.com, "sartrejp"
                  <sartrejp@f...>
                  > > wrote:
                  > > > > > > > Buddie,
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > How about investigating and reporting facts! The role
                  of the
                  > > > > > > commentator is
                  > > > > > > > to offer an explanation for their significance.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > SARTRE
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > > > > > > From: "buddiebuddiee" <Buddie29@h...>
                  > > > > > > > To: <oldright@yahoogroups.com>
                  > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 2:30 PM
                  > > > > > > > Subject: [oldright] Visit BREAKING ALL THE RULES
                  > > http://batr.org
                  > > > > > > First time
                  > > > > > > > post and DON'T know WHY I'm here!LOL
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > > You are ALL intellectuals here with many Doctor/ed
                  > > degrees ;)
                  > > > > and
                  > > > > > > > > some BSers here...no? ;)
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > > My MAJOR beef is with the MAINSTREAM MEDIA..
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > > What is the MAIN job of a reporter/journalist? Anyone
                  here
                  > > > > care to
                  > > > > > > > > enlighten me?
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > > TIA
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > > Buddie
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > > > > > > > > oldright-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                  > > > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                  > > > > > > ADVERTISEMENT
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > >
                  <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=194081.3897168.5135684.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=17
                  > > > >
                  > >
                  05060375:HM/A=1732161/R=0/SIG=11p5b9ris/*http://www.ediets.com/start.c
                  > > > > fm?code=30509&media=atkins>
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > > > > > > oldright-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
                  of
                  > > > > Service
                  > > > > > > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                  > > > > ADVERTISEMENT
                  > > > >
                  > >
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                  > >
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                  > > fm?code=30510&media=zone>
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > > > > oldright-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                  > > Service
                  > > > > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                  > > ADVERTISEMENT
                  > >
                  <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=194081.3897168.5135684.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=17
                  05060375:HM/A=1732163/R=0/SIG=11n0nglqg/*http://www.ediets.com/start.c
                  fm?code=30510&media=zone>
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > > oldright-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                  Service
                  > > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.



                  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  oldright-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



                  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                • sam
                  If the reporter on the scene is HONEST he reports what he sees etc. However when he turns his story into his editor who has been bought and paid for by the
                  Message 8 of 14 , Sep 16, 2003
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                    If the reporter on the scene is HONEST
                    he reports what he sees etc.  However
                    when he turns his story into his editor
                    who has been bought and paid for by the
                    powers that be, his original story has
                    bee boiled down to what his boss is
                    allowed to broadcast.  This has been the
                    case for probably close to 100 years.
                     
                    This is not so much on the local level as
                    in the national level for instance the actual
                    number of our boys over in the middle east who have been killed which is thousands and not the hundred that
                    are reported.  Not long ago I read that
                    a grave was found with hundreds of
                    US serviceman's bodies but not a boo from
                    the major media here. I have found that the
                    foreign news will report what the U.S
                    media will not touch which is in many
                    cases the truth.  How many people actually go to foreign newspapers and
                    read articles only to find a lot of stuff
                    that was sorely missing from the news
                    here at home.
                     
                    I often wonder if the opposite is true.
                     
                    s.a.m
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 4:04 PM
                    Subject: [oldright] Visit BREAKING ALL THE RULES http://batr.org Re: Visit BREAKING ALL THE RULES http://batr.org First time post and DON'T know WHY I'm here!LOL


                    Then what you saying, Sam...is that it's ALL LIES -- what the media
                    prints and reads off their prepared scripts?

                    Buddie

                    --- In oldright@yahoogroups.com, "sam" <mugwump@h...> wrote:
                    > ....report the news as they see it before
                    > it is twisted and distorted by their
                    > editors!!!
                    >
                    >
                    >   ----- Original Message -----
                    >   From: buddiebuddiee
                    >   To: oldright@yahoogroups.com
                    >   Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 1:30 PM
                    >   Subject: [oldright] Visit BREAKING ALL THE RULES http://batr.org
                    First time post and DON'T know WHY I'm here!LOL
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >   You are ALL intellectuals here with many Doctor/ed degrees ;) and
                    >   some BSers here...no? ;)
                    >
                    >   My MAJOR beef is with the MAINSTREAM MEDIA..
                    >
                    >   What is the MAIN job of a reporter/journalist? Anyone here care
                    to
                    >   enlighten me?
                    >
                    >   TIA
                    >
                    >   Buddie
                    >
                    >
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                  • buddiebuddiee
                    Forgive me Steve...Am a female and a Scorpio to boot and we emotional type..ok? :) WHY are you throwing in Ben Franklin and Jesus and other fables here? Just
                    Message 9 of 14 , Sep 16, 2003
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                      Forgive me Steve...Am a female and a Scorpio to boot and we emotional
                      type..ok? :)

                      WHY are you throwing in Ben Franklin and Jesus and other fables here?
                      Just cause THEY SUPPOSEDLY said so? Steve..YOU HAVE BEEN PROGRAMMED
                      to think the so-called PAST is the PRESENT. Am going to be jumping
                      from one subject to another...I post what comes out of my head.
                      Sorry, but am NOT like the rest of you here. I like to QUESTION
                      things and people and am NOT intimidated by people's ranks and
                      statures in life. I was brought up in a Christian home, daddy was a
                      preacher man. I know what religion is all about and it ain't pretty.
                      It's ANOTHER way of ENSLAVING people through their BELIEF system. If
                      one does NOT think like the majority -- one is ostracized. I believe
                      in a higher being -- Someone or something created us as human
                      flesh...OR maybe EACH ONE OF US IS A GOD and WE DON'T KNOW IT????
                      History is constanlty being re-written and so has the holy
                      bible/scriptures. Just like MAINSTREAM Media writes LIES these days --
                      what makes you think HIS-tory isn't BASED on LIES? In THOSE days
                      there was NO internet and people relied on other's word-of-mouth
                      tales.

                      As to taxes? How about LOTTERIES? It's SIMPLE and there's NO THREAT
                      from the GESTAPO IRS to hand over one's hard-earned money. It's time
                      for the IRS GESTAPO to get a real job...no? and NOT live off people's
                      FEARS. Something WRONG when people FEAR the IRS MORE than they fear
                      the police, etc.

                      I'm a simple minded person and can't take too much programming in one
                      take. :) I like to keep things SIMPLE.

                      Buddie

                      --- In oldright@yahoogroups.com, Steven Laib <slaib@e...> wrote:
                      > Consider,
                      >
                      > I was invited to join this group in part because of my demonstrated
                      > ability. Sartre
                      > and I have crossed words on occasion because we disagree, but we do
                      it
                      > cordially, and
                      > without overt emotional overtones. We also take the time to read
                      each
                      > other's notes and
                      > make sure we understand each other before going off half cocked.
                      >
                      > I expect, perhaps wrongly, that others take the time and care that
                      I do
                      > in forming
                      > conclusions before writing back. After years of intellectual
                      discussion
                      > with people
                      > of all ranks and education levels I've found that it is a bad idea
                      to
                      > form any conclusions
                      > too fast and then act on them without thinking.
                      >
                      > Now consider that even Ben Franklin said that taxes are the price
                      we pay
                      > for civilization.
                      > Jesus said that we should render unto Caesar what is Caesar's.
                      Tithing
                      > has been a constant
                      > in the Bible, and in other societies where religion plays a
                      significant
                      > role.
                      >
                      > These are two starting points for the position that some level of
                      > taxation can be considered
                      > legitimate. Of course, I could assume that you are an atheist, or
                      > anarchist, but I might be
                      > wrong. Most people I know would agree that government can serve
                      some
                      > legitimate
                      > service, therefore, it is necessary to find some source of
                      funding. If
                      > you have a better
                      > idea than taxation, tell me what it is and I'll listen.
                      >
                      > Finally, if I did take the rest of what you wrote seriously, I'd
                      have to
                      > write you off as
                      > a less than serious participant in this group, and simply ignore
                      what
                      > you had to say.
                      > That would be a shame for both of us.
                      >
                      > Cordially,
                      >
                      > Steve Laib
                      >
                      > buddiebuddiee wrote:
                      >
                      > >
                      > > Ya..You caught me alright. ;) I have a tendency to speedread. :)
                      > >
                      > > "Fortunately"???LOL...Why you saying that? Just curious...ok?
                      > >
                      > > Buddie
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- In oldright@yahoogroups.com, Steven Laib <slaib@e...> wrote:
                      > > > Buddie,
                      > > >
                      > > > I hate to say this, but you haven't been paying attention.
                      > > >
                      > > > I said that the IRS should have the burden of proof, but I
                      didn't
                      > > say
                      > > > anything about
                      > > > the citizen having to provide records. Besides, in most
                      instances,
                      > > the
                      > > > citizen has the
                      > > > reciepts and the IRS says they don't and wants them produced.
                      > > >
                      > > > Fortunately, I don't take the rest of your post seriously.
                      > > >
                      > > > Steve Laib
                      > > >
                      > > > buddiebuddiee wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > "My contention is that the Treasury Dept. / IRS carries the
                      > > burden of
                      > > > > proof and not the citizen. "
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Steve..You stating that the IRS carries the "burden" of
                      proof???
                      > > > > HELLO???? WHY should any peon keep receipts about themselves
                      that
                      > > > > would be USED AGAINST them??
                      > > > >
                      > > > > INCOME TAX = SLAVERY -- plain & simple!! It's a CONTROL
                      mechanism
                      > > and
                      > > > > and EXTORTION!!!
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Governments are SERVANTS of the people and pray tell -- WHEN
                      have
                      > > the
                      > > > > SERVANTS become the MASTERS and the People their Servants?
                      > > > >
                      > > > > And pleeeaaaazzze...DON'T talk about "paying one's share" --
                      > > THAT's a
                      > > > > lot of BS!!! Why is it that people LOVE slavery and DON'T want
                      > > OTHERS
                      > > > > to get out of THIS prison?
                      > > > >
                      > > > > We've been PROGRAMMED from the day we born to ACCEPT
                      authority and
                      > > > > NOT question ANYTHING OR ANYBODY!
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Buddie
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > --- In oldright@yahoogroups.com, Steven Laib <slaib@e...>
                      wrote:
                      > > > > > Buddie,
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > This is a difficult question to answer. What I believe at
                      > > bottom
                      > > > > line
                      > > > > > is that government believes that
                      > > > > > it has the right to tax people and to use the IRS as its
                      agency
                      > > to
                      > > > > do so
                      > > > > > with respect to the federal
                      > > > > > income tax. Actually, over the years I have collected a
                      lot of
                      > > > > > information on what I call the
                      > > > > > Lore and Legend of the Income Tax Protest Movement. After
                      > > > > examining a
                      > > > > > lot of it in detail I
                      > > > > > have had to throw some of it out totally. For example, the
                      > > > > suggestion
                      > > > > > that people are citizens of their
                      > > > > > state, and not of the United States. It simply doesn't
                      work.
                      > > > > However,
                      > > > > > there are other arguments which
                      > > > > > might have merit, but are not addressed by the courts or the
                      > > > > government.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > My major issue is not whether the income tax is legal, but
                      > > whether
                      > > > > it is
                      > > > > > enforced in a legal fashion.
                      > > > > > My contention is that the Treasury Dept. / IRS carries the
                      > > burden
                      > > > > of
                      > > > > > proof and not the citizen.
                      > > > > > Otherwise the citizen is placed in a position of inequity
                      > > similar
                      > > > > to
                      > > > > > that which caused the courts
                      > > > > > to rule against contracts of adhesion.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > The government position is to hide behind the myth that
                      most tax
                      > > > > > proceedings are civil, rather than
                      > > > > > criminal matters, but that is not relevant. Even in civil
                      > > matters
                      > > > > the
                      > > > > > person making the contention has
                      > > > > > the burden of proof. If the IRS says you owe the tax then
                      they
                      > > > > must
                      > > > > > show how and why.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > You may want to look at a short piece I have coming up on
                      > > > > > Intellectualconservative.com in the next
                      > > > > > few days.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > I'm originally from Berzerkly Calif. One parent German and
                      the
                      > > > > other
                      > > > > > Canadian but naturalized
                      > > > > > American by serving with the US army in WW 2.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Steve Laib
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > buddiebuddiee wrote:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Steve? You are American, I gather. The IRS. You believe
                      they
                      > > have
                      > > > > the
                      > > > > > > authority to tax people? And do you believe that Income
                      Tax is
                      > > > > > > Legal/ILLEGAL?
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Am Canadian...Europen-born.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Buddie
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > --- In oldright@yahoogroups.com, Steven Laib <slaib@e...>
                      > > wrote:
                      > > > > > > > Do they actually investigate is an excellent question.
                      One
                      > > > > might
                      > > > > > > also
                      > > > > > > > ask if they investigate only to
                      > > > > > > > confirm previously held beliefs, or do they go all the
                      way
                      > > to
                      > > > > find
                      > > > > > > out
                      > > > > > > > if they are correct in those
                      > > > > > > > beliefs.
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > Since I do commentary, my duty is not to present only
                      the
                      > > facts,
                      > > > > > > but my
                      > > > > > > > thinking concerning them.
                      > > > > > > > When I wrote on exclusively tax law developments, years
                      > > ago, I
                      > > > > had
                      > > > > > > a
                      > > > > > > > significant duty to be accurate
                      > > > > > > > in my presentation of what changes had occurred. My
                      > > comments
                      > > > > were
                      > > > > > > my
                      > > > > > > > own thinking and were
                      > > > > > > > expected to get people to investigate and draw their own
                      > > > > > > conclusions.
                      > > > > > > > This should be extremely
                      > > > > > > > important in complex areas where people don't often know
                      > > what is
                      > > > > > > > happening. I recall some
                      > > > > > > > items in the Tax Act of 1986 which did exactly the
                      opposite
                      > > of
                      > > > > what
                      > > > > > > the
                      > > > > > > > legislature wanted and
                      > > > > > > > had to be rewritten. Thus, it pays to be very careful.
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > Steve Laib
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > buddiebuddiee wrote:
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > Sartre -- And do they ACTUALLY investigate?? Or they
                      given
                      > > > > already
                      > > > > > > > > PREPARED scripts to mouth off on television and in
                      print?!
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > Buddie
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > --- In oldright@yahoogroups.com, "sartrejp"
                      > > <sartrejp@f...>
                      > > > > wrote:
                      > > > > > > > > > Buddie,
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > > How about investigating and reporting facts! The
                      role
                      > > of the
                      > > > > > > > > commentator is
                      > > > > > > > > > to offer an explanation for their significance.
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > > SARTRE
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > > > > > > > > From: "buddiebuddiee" <Buddie29@h...>
                      > > > > > > > > > To: <oldright@yahoogroups.com>
                      > > > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 2:30 PM
                      > > > > > > > > > Subject: [oldright] Visit BREAKING ALL THE RULES
                      > > > > http://batr.org
                      > > > > > > > > First time
                      > > > > > > > > > post and DON'T know WHY I'm here!LOL
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > > > You are ALL intellectuals here with many Doctor/ed
                      > > > > degrees ;)
                      > > > > > > and
                      > > > > > > > > > > some BSers here...no? ;)
                      > > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > > > My MAJOR beef is with the MAINSTREAM MEDIA..
                      > > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > > > What is the MAIN job of a reporter/journalist?
                      Anyone
                      > > here
                      > > > > > > care to
                      > > > > > > > > > > enlighten me?
                      > > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > > > TIA
                      > > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > > > Buddie
                      > > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > > >
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                    • buddiebuddiee
                      Yes..But just how many of the people can actually can read in the USA, S.A.M.? That s the reason Bush & Crooks, Inc. were able to get the people behind in
                      Message 10 of 14 , Sep 16, 2003
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Yes..But just how many of the people can actually can read in the
                        USA, S.A.M.? That's the reason Bush & Crooks, Inc. were able to get
                        the people behind in going to War against Iraq. They DEPEND on
                        TELEVISION -- CNN and FOX and NBC, ABC, CBS, etc., their PARTNERS-IN-
                        CRIME, to HOODWINK the public who's too burdened with taxes and just
                        making a living to care about the lives in some 3rd world country.

                        Buddie
                        Here's Pentagon's Mass Graves for the American soldiers link:

                        http://www.truthout.org/docs_02/012603A.mass.graves.htm




                        The MASS graves -- Pentagon

                        --- In oldright@yahoogroups.com, "sam" <mugwump@h...> wrote:
                        > If the reporter on the scene is HONEST
                        > he reports what he sees etc. However
                        > when he turns his story into his editor
                        > who has been bought and paid for by the
                        > powers that be, his original story has
                        > bee boiled down to what his boss is
                        > allowed to broadcast. This has been the
                        > case for probably close to 100 years.
                        >
                        > This is not so much on the local level as
                        > in the national level for instance the actual
                        > number of our boys over in the middle east who have been killed
                        which is thousands and not the hundred that
                        > are reported. Not long ago I read that
                        > a grave was found with hundreds of
                        > US serviceman's bodies but not a boo from
                        > the major media here. I have found that the
                        > foreign news will report what the U.S
                        > media will not touch which is in many
                        > cases the truth. How many people actually go to foreign newspapers
                        and
                        > read articles only to find a lot of stuff
                        > that was sorely missing from the news
                        > here at home.
                        >
                        > I often wonder if the opposite is true.
                        >
                        > s.a.m
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: buddiebuddiee
                        > To: oldright@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 4:04 PM
                        > Subject: [oldright] Visit BREAKING ALL THE RULES http://batr.org
                        Re: Visit BREAKING ALL THE RULES http://batr.org First time post and
                        DON'T know WHY I'm here!LOL
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Then what you saying, Sam...is that it's ALL LIES -- what the
                        media
                        > prints and reads off their prepared scripts?
                        >
                        > Buddie
                        >
                        > --- In oldright@yahoogroups.com, "sam" <mugwump@h...> wrote:
                        > > ....report the news as they see it before
                        > > it is twisted and distorted by their
                        > > editors!!!
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ----- Original Message -----
                        > > From: buddiebuddiee
                        > > To: oldright@yahoogroups.com
                        > > Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 1:30 PM
                        > > Subject: [oldright] Visit BREAKING ALL THE RULES
                        http://batr.org
                        > First time post and DON'T know WHY I'm here!LOL
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > You are ALL intellectuals here with many Doctor/ed degrees ;)
                        and
                        > > some BSers here...no? ;)
                        > >
                        > > My MAJOR beef is with the MAINSTREAM MEDIA..
                        > >
                        > > What is the MAIN job of a reporter/journalist? Anyone here
                        care
                        > to
                        > > enlighten me?
                        > >
                        > > TIA
                        > >
                        > > Buddie
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                        > > ADVERTISEMENT
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
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                        > >
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                        > >
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                        > Service.
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                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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                        >
                        >
                        >
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