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Visit BREAKING ALL THE RULES http://batr.org Re: Visit BREAKING ALL THE RULES http://batr.org First time post and DON'T know WHY I'm here!LOL

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  • buddiebuddiee
    Steve? You are American, I gather. The IRS. You believe they have the authority to tax people? And do you believe that Income Tax is Legal/ILLEGAL? Am
    Message 1 of 14 , Sep 16, 2003
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      Steve? You are American, I gather. The IRS. You believe they have the
      authority to tax people? And do you believe that Income Tax is
      Legal/ILLEGAL?

      Am Canadian...Europen-born.

      Buddie

      --- In oldright@yahoogroups.com, Steven Laib <slaib@e...> wrote:
      > Do they actually investigate is an excellent question. One might
      also
      > ask if they investigate only to
      > confirm previously held beliefs, or do they go all the way to find
      out
      > if they are correct in those
      > beliefs.
      >
      > Since I do commentary, my duty is not to present only the facts,
      but my
      > thinking concerning them.
      > When I wrote on exclusively tax law developments, years ago, I had
      a
      > significant duty to be accurate
      > in my presentation of what changes had occurred. My comments were
      my
      > own thinking and were
      > expected to get people to investigate and draw their own
      conclusions.
      > This should be extremely
      > important in complex areas where people don't often know what is
      > happening. I recall some
      > items in the Tax Act of 1986 which did exactly the opposite of what
      the
      > legislature wanted and
      > had to be rewritten. Thus, it pays to be very careful.
      >
      > Steve Laib
      >
      > buddiebuddiee wrote:
      >
      > >
      > > Sartre -- And do they ACTUALLY investigate?? Or they given already
      > > PREPARED scripts to mouth off on television and in print?!
      > >
      > > Buddie
      > >
      > > --- In oldright@yahoogroups.com, "sartrejp" <sartrejp@f...> wrote:
      > > > Buddie,
      > > >
      > > > How about investigating and reporting facts! The role of the
      > > commentator is
      > > > to offer an explanation for their significance.
      > > >
      > > > SARTRE
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > > From: "buddiebuddiee" <Buddie29@h...>
      > > > To: <oldright@yahoogroups.com>
      > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 2:30 PM
      > > > Subject: [oldright] Visit BREAKING ALL THE RULES http://batr.org
      > > First time
      > > > post and DON'T know WHY I'm here!LOL
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > You are ALL intellectuals here with many Doctor/ed degrees ;)
      and
      > > > > some BSers here...no? ;)
      > > > >
      > > > > My MAJOR beef is with the MAINSTREAM MEDIA..
      > > > >
      > > > > What is the MAIN job of a reporter/journalist? Anyone here
      care to
      > > > > enlighten me?
      > > > >
      > > > > TIA
      > > > >
      > > > > Buddie
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > > > > oldright-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
      > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
      > > ADVERTISEMENT
      > >
      <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=194081.3897168.5135684.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=17
      05060375:HM/A=1732161/R=0/SIG=11p5b9ris/*http://www.ediets.com/start.c
      fm?code=30509&media=atkins>
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > > oldright-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
      Service
      > > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
    • Steven Laib
      Buddie, This is a difficult question to answer. What I believe at bottom line is that government believes that it has the right to tax people and to use the
      Message 2 of 14 , Sep 16, 2003
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        Buddie,

        This is a difficult question to answer.  What I believe at bottom line is that government believes that
        it has the right to tax people and to use the IRS as its agency to do so with respect to the federal
        income tax.  Actually, over the years I have collected a lot of information on what I call the
        Lore and Legend of the Income Tax Protest Movement.  After examining a lot of it in detail I
        have had to throw some of it out totally.  For example, the suggestion that people are citizens of their
        state, and not of the United States.  It simply doesn't work.  However, there are other arguments which
        might have merit, but are not addressed by the courts or the government. 

        My major issue is not whether the income tax is legal, but whether it is enforced in a legal fashion. 
        My contention is that the Treasury Dept. / IRS carries the burden of proof and not the citizen. 
        Otherwise the citizen is placed in a position of inequity similar to that which caused the courts
        to rule against contracts of adhesion. 

        The government position is to hide behind the myth that most tax proceedings are civil, rather than
        criminal matters, but that is not relevant.  Even in civil matters the person making the contention has
        the burden of proof.  If the IRS says you owe the tax then they must show how and why. 

        You may want to look at a short piece I have coming up on Intellectualconservative.com in the next
        few days. 

        I'm originally from Berzerkly Calif.  One parent German and the other Canadian but naturalized
        American by serving with the US army in WW 2.


        Steve Laib

        buddiebuddiee wrote:

        Steve? You are American, I gather. The IRS. You believe they have the
        authority to tax people? And do you believe that Income Tax is
        Legal/ILLEGAL?

        Am Canadian...Europen-born.

        Buddie

        --- In oldright@yahoogroups.com, Steven Laib <slaib@e...> wrote:
        > Do they actually investigate is an excellent question.  One might
        also
        > ask if they investigate only to
        > confirm previously held beliefs, or do they go all the way to find
        out
        > if they are correct in those
        > beliefs.
        >
        > Since I do commentary, my duty is not to present only the facts,
        but my
        > thinking concerning them.
        > When I wrote on exclusively tax law developments, years ago,  I had
        a
        > significant duty to be accurate
        > in my presentation of what  changes had occurred.  My comments were
        my
        > own thinking and were
        > expected to get people to investigate and draw their own
        conclusions. 
        > This should be extremely
        > important in complex areas where people don't often know what is
        > happening.  I recall some
        > items in the Tax Act of 1986 which did exactly the opposite of what
        the
        > legislature wanted and
        > had to be rewritten.  Thus, it pays to be very careful.
        >
        > Steve Laib
        >
        > buddiebuddiee wrote:
        >
        > >
        > > Sartre -- And do they ACTUALLY investigate?? Or they given already
        > > PREPARED scripts to mouth off on television and in print?!
        > >
        > > Buddie
        > >
        > > --- In oldright@yahoogroups.com, "sartrejp" <sartrejp@f...> wrote:
        > > > Buddie,
        > > >
        > > > How about investigating and reporting facts! The role of the
        > > commentator is
        > > > to offer an explanation for their significance.
        > > >
        > > > SARTRE
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > > From: "buddiebuddiee" <Buddie29@h...>
        > > > To: <oldright@yahoogroups.com>
        > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 2:30 PM
        > > > Subject: [oldright] Visit BREAKING ALL THE RULES http://batr.org
        > > First time
        > > > post and DON'T know WHY I'm here!LOL
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > You are ALL intellectuals here with many Doctor/ed degrees ;)
        and
        > > > > some BSers here...no? ;)
        > > > >
        > > > > My MAJOR beef is with the MAINSTREAM MEDIA..
        > > > >
        > > > > What is the MAIN job of a reporter/journalist? Anyone here
        care to
        > > > > enlighten me?
        > > > >
        > > > > TIA
        > > > >
        > > > > Buddie
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > > > > oldright-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
        > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
        > > ADVERTISEMENT
        > >
        <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=194081.3897168.5135684.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=17
        05060375:HM/A=1732161/R=0/SIG=11p5b9ris/*http://www.ediets.com/start.c
        fm?code=30509&media=atkins>
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > > oldright-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
        Service
        > > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.



        To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        oldright-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
      • buddiebuddiee
        My contention is that the Treasury Dept. / IRS carries the burden of proof and not the citizen. Steve..You stating that the IRS carries the burden of
        Message 3 of 14 , Sep 16, 2003
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          "My contention is that the Treasury Dept. / IRS carries the burden of
          proof and not the citizen. "

          Steve..You stating that the IRS carries the "burden" of proof???
          HELLO???? WHY should any peon keep receipts about themselves that
          would be USED AGAINST them??

          INCOME TAX = SLAVERY -- plain & simple!! It's a CONTROL mechanism and
          and EXTORTION!!!

          Governments are SERVANTS of the people and pray tell -- WHEN have the
          SERVANTS become the MASTERS and the People their Servants?

          And pleeeaaaazzze...DON'T talk about "paying one's share" -- THAT's a
          lot of BS!!! Why is it that people LOVE slavery and DON'T want OTHERS
          to get out of THIS prison?

          We've been PROGRAMMED from the day we born to ACCEPT authority and
          NOT question ANYTHING OR ANYBODY!

          Buddie




          --- In oldright@yahoogroups.com, Steven Laib <slaib@e...> wrote:
          > Buddie,
          >
          > This is a difficult question to answer. What I believe at bottom
          line
          > is that government believes that
          > it has the right to tax people and to use the IRS as its agency to
          do so
          > with respect to the federal
          > income tax. Actually, over the years I have collected a lot of
          > information on what I call the
          > Lore and Legend of the Income Tax Protest Movement. After
          examining a
          > lot of it in detail I
          > have had to throw some of it out totally. For example, the
          suggestion
          > that people are citizens of their
          > state, and not of the United States. It simply doesn't work.
          However,
          > there are other arguments which
          > might have merit, but are not addressed by the courts or the
          government.
          >
          > My major issue is not whether the income tax is legal, but whether
          it is
          > enforced in a legal fashion.
          > My contention is that the Treasury Dept. / IRS carries the burden
          of
          > proof and not the citizen.
          > Otherwise the citizen is placed in a position of inequity similar
          to
          > that which caused the courts
          > to rule against contracts of adhesion.
          >
          > The government position is to hide behind the myth that most tax
          > proceedings are civil, rather than
          > criminal matters, but that is not relevant. Even in civil matters
          the
          > person making the contention has
          > the burden of proof. If the IRS says you owe the tax then they
          must
          > show how and why.
          >
          > You may want to look at a short piece I have coming up on
          > Intellectualconservative.com in the next
          > few days.
          >
          > I'm originally from Berzerkly Calif. One parent German and the
          other
          > Canadian but naturalized
          > American by serving with the US army in WW 2.
          >
          >
          > Steve Laib
          >
          > buddiebuddiee wrote:
          >
          > >
          > > Steve? You are American, I gather. The IRS. You believe they have
          the
          > > authority to tax people? And do you believe that Income Tax is
          > > Legal/ILLEGAL?
          > >
          > > Am Canadian...Europen-born.
          > >
          > > Buddie
          > >
          > > --- In oldright@yahoogroups.com, Steven Laib <slaib@e...> wrote:
          > > > Do they actually investigate is an excellent question. One
          might
          > > also
          > > > ask if they investigate only to
          > > > confirm previously held beliefs, or do they go all the way to
          find
          > > out
          > > > if they are correct in those
          > > > beliefs.
          > > >
          > > > Since I do commentary, my duty is not to present only the facts,
          > > but my
          > > > thinking concerning them.
          > > > When I wrote on exclusively tax law developments, years ago, I
          had
          > > a
          > > > significant duty to be accurate
          > > > in my presentation of what changes had occurred. My comments
          were
          > > my
          > > > own thinking and were
          > > > expected to get people to investigate and draw their own
          > > conclusions.
          > > > This should be extremely
          > > > important in complex areas where people don't often know what is
          > > > happening. I recall some
          > > > items in the Tax Act of 1986 which did exactly the opposite of
          what
          > > the
          > > > legislature wanted and
          > > > had to be rewritten. Thus, it pays to be very careful.
          > > >
          > > > Steve Laib
          > > >
          > > > buddiebuddiee wrote:
          > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > Sartre -- And do they ACTUALLY investigate?? Or they given
          already
          > > > > PREPARED scripts to mouth off on television and in print?!
          > > > >
          > > > > Buddie
          > > > >
          > > > > --- In oldright@yahoogroups.com, "sartrejp" <sartrejp@f...>
          wrote:
          > > > > > Buddie,
          > > > > >
          > > > > > How about investigating and reporting facts! The role of the
          > > > > commentator is
          > > > > > to offer an explanation for their significance.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > SARTRE
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
          > > > > > From: "buddiebuddiee" <Buddie29@h...>
          > > > > > To: <oldright@yahoogroups.com>
          > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 2:30 PM
          > > > > > Subject: [oldright] Visit BREAKING ALL THE RULES
          http://batr.org
          > > > > First time
          > > > > > post and DON'T know WHY I'm here!LOL
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > You are ALL intellectuals here with many Doctor/ed
          degrees ;)
          > > and
          > > > > > > some BSers here...no? ;)
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > My MAJOR beef is with the MAINSTREAM MEDIA..
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > What is the MAIN job of a reporter/journalist? Anyone here
          > > care to
          > > > > > > enlighten me?
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > TIA
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Buddie
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > > > > > > oldright-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
          > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
          > > > > ADVERTISEMENT
          > > > >
          > >
          <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=194081.3897168.5135684.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=17
          > >
          05060375:HM/A=1732161/R=0/SIG=11p5b9ris/*http://www.ediets.com/start.c
          > > fm?code=30509&media=atkins>
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > > > > oldright-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
          > > Service
          > > > > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
          > >
          > >
          > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
          > > ADVERTISEMENT
          > >
          <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=194081.3897168.5135684.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=17
          05060375:HM/A=1732163/R=0/SIG=11n0nglqg/*http://www.ediets.com/start.c
          fm?code=30510&media=zone>
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
          Service
          > > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
        • sam
          ....report the news as they see it before it is twisted and distorted by their editors!!! ... From: buddiebuddiee To: oldright@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday,
          Message 4 of 14 , Sep 16, 2003
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            ....report the news as they see it before
            it is twisted and distorted by their
            editors!!!
             
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 1:30 PM
            Subject: [oldright] Visit BREAKING ALL THE RULES http://batr.org First time post and DON'T know WHY I'm here!LOL


            You are ALL intellectuals here with many Doctor/ed degrees ;) and
            some BSers here...no? ;)

            My MAJOR beef is with the MAINSTREAM MEDIA..

            What is the MAIN job of a reporter/journalist? Anyone here care to
            enlighten me?

            TIA

            Buddie



            To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            oldright-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
          • Steven Laib
            Buddie, I hate to say this, but you haven t been paying attention. I said that the IRS should have the burden of proof, but I didn t say anything about the
            Message 5 of 14 , Sep 16, 2003
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              Buddie,

              I hate to say this, but you haven't been paying attention. 

              I said that the IRS should have the burden of proof, but I didn't say anything about
              the citizen having to provide records.  Besides, in most instances, the citizen has the
              reciepts and the IRS says they don't and wants them produced. 

              Fortunately, I don't take the rest of your post seriously.

              Steve Laib

              buddiebuddiee wrote:

              "My contention is that the Treasury Dept. / IRS carries the burden of
              proof and not the citizen. "

              Steve..You stating that the IRS carries the "burden" of proof???
              HELLO???? WHY should any  peon keep receipts about themselves that
              would be USED AGAINST them??

              INCOME TAX = SLAVERY -- plain & simple!! It's a CONTROL mechanism and
              and EXTORTION!!!

              Governments are SERVANTS of the people and pray tell -- WHEN have the
              SERVANTS  become the MASTERS and the People their Servants?

              And pleeeaaaazzze...DON'T talk about "paying one's share" -- THAT's a
              lot of BS!!! Why is it that people LOVE slavery and DON'T want OTHERS
              to get out of THIS prison?

              We've been PROGRAMMED from the day we born to ACCEPT authority and
              NOT question ANYTHING OR ANYBODY!

              Buddie




              --- In oldright@yahoogroups.com, Steven Laib <slaib@e...> wrote:
              > Buddie,
              >
              > This is a difficult question to answer.  What I believe at bottom
              line
              > is that government believes that
              > it has the right to tax people and to use the IRS as its agency to
              do so
              > with respect to the federal
              > income tax.  Actually, over the years I have collected a lot of
              > information on what I call the
              > Lore and Legend of the Income Tax Protest Movement.  After
              examining a
              > lot of it in detail I
              > have had to throw some of it out totally.  For example, the
              suggestion
              > that people are citizens of their
              > state, and not of the United States.  It simply doesn't work. 
              However,
              > there are other arguments which
              > might have merit, but are not addressed by the courts or the
              government.
              >
              > My major issue is not whether the income tax is legal, but whether
              it is
              > enforced in a legal fashion.
              > My contention is that the Treasury Dept. / IRS carries the burden
              of
              > proof and not the citizen.
              > Otherwise the citizen is placed in a position of inequity similar
              to
              > that which caused the courts
              > to rule against contracts of adhesion.
              >
              > The government position is to hide behind the myth that most tax
              > proceedings are civil, rather than
              > criminal matters, but that is not relevant.  Even in civil matters
              the
              > person making the contention has
              > the burden of proof.  If the IRS says you owe the tax then they
              must
              > show how and why.
              >
              > You may want to look at a short piece I have coming up on
              > Intellectualconservative.com in the next
              > few days.
              >
              > I'm originally from Berzerkly Calif.  One parent German and the
              other
              > Canadian but naturalized
              > American by serving with the US army in WW 2.
              >
              >
              > Steve Laib
              >
              > buddiebuddiee wrote:
              >
              > >
              > > Steve? You are American, I gather. The IRS. You believe they have
              the
              > > authority to tax people? And do you believe that Income Tax is
              > > Legal/ILLEGAL?
              > >
              > > Am Canadian...Europen-born.
              > >
              > > Buddie
              > >
              > > --- In oldright@yahoogroups.com, Steven Laib <slaib@e...> wrote:
              > > > Do they actually investigate is an excellent question.  One
              might
              > > also
              > > > ask if they investigate only to
              > > > confirm previously held beliefs, or do they go all the way to
              find
              > > out
              > > > if they are correct in those
              > > > beliefs.
              > > >
              > > > Since I do commentary, my duty is not to present only the facts,
              > > but my
              > > > thinking concerning them.
              > > > When I wrote on exclusively tax law developments, years ago,  I
              had
              > > a
              > > > significant duty to be accurate
              > > > in my presentation of what  changes had occurred.  My comments
              were
              > > my
              > > > own thinking and were
              > > > expected to get people to investigate and draw their own
              > > conclusions.
              > > > This should be extremely
              > > > important in complex areas where people don't often know what is
              > > > happening.  I recall some
              > > > items in the Tax Act of 1986 which did exactly the opposite of
              what
              > > the
              > > > legislature wanted and
              > > > had to be rewritten.  Thus, it pays to be very careful.
              > > >
              > > > Steve Laib
              > > >
              > > > buddiebuddiee wrote:
              > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > Sartre -- And do they ACTUALLY investigate?? Or they given
              already
              > > > > PREPARED scripts to mouth off on television and in print?!
              > > > >
              > > > > Buddie
              > > > >
              > > > > --- In oldright@yahoogroups.com, "sartrejp" <sartrejp@f...>
              wrote:
              > > > > > Buddie,
              > > > > >
              > > > > > How about investigating and reporting facts! The role of the
              > > > > commentator is
              > > > > > to offer an explanation for their significance.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > SARTRE
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > > > > From: "buddiebuddiee" <Buddie29@h...>
              > > > > > To: <oldright@yahoogroups.com>
              > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 2:30 PM
              > > > > > Subject: [oldright] Visit BREAKING ALL THE RULES
              http://batr.org
              > > > > First time
              > > > > > post and DON'T know WHY I'm here!LOL
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > You are ALL intellectuals here with many Doctor/ed
              degrees ;)
              > > and
              > > > > > > some BSers here...no? ;)
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > My MAJOR beef is with the MAINSTREAM MEDIA..
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > What is the MAIN job of a reporter/journalist? Anyone here
              > > care to
              > > > > > > enlighten me?
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > TIA
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > Buddie
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > > > > > > oldright-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
              > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > >
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            • buddiebuddiee
              Then what you saying, Sam...is that it s ALL LIES -- what the media prints and reads off their prepared scripts? Buddie ... First time post and DON T know WHY
              Message 6 of 14 , Sep 16, 2003
              • 0 Attachment
                Then what you saying, Sam...is that it's ALL LIES -- what the media
                prints and reads off their prepared scripts?

                Buddie

                --- In oldright@yahoogroups.com, "sam" <mugwump@h...> wrote:
                > ....report the news as they see it before
                > it is twisted and distorted by their
                > editors!!!
                >
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: buddiebuddiee
                > To: oldright@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 1:30 PM
                > Subject: [oldright] Visit BREAKING ALL THE RULES http://batr.org
                First time post and DON'T know WHY I'm here!LOL
                >
                >
                >
                > You are ALL intellectuals here with many Doctor/ed degrees ;) and
                > some BSers here...no? ;)
                >
                > My MAJOR beef is with the MAINSTREAM MEDIA..
                >
                > What is the MAIN job of a reporter/journalist? Anyone here care
                to
                > enlighten me?
                >
                > TIA
                >
                > Buddie
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                > ADVERTISEMENT
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                >
                >
                >
                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                >
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                Service.
              • buddiebuddiee
                Ya..You caught me alright. ;) I have a tendency to speedread. :) Fortunately ???LOL...Why you saying that? Just curious...ok? Buddie ... say ... the ...
                Message 7 of 14 , Sep 16, 2003
                • 0 Attachment
                  Ya..You caught me alright. ;) I have a tendency to speedread. :)

                  "Fortunately"???LOL...Why you saying that? Just curious...ok?

                  Buddie


                  --- In oldright@yahoogroups.com, Steven Laib <slaib@e...> wrote:
                  > Buddie,
                  >
                  > I hate to say this, but you haven't been paying attention.
                  >
                  > I said that the IRS should have the burden of proof, but I didn't
                  say
                  > anything about
                  > the citizen having to provide records. Besides, in most instances,
                  the
                  > citizen has the
                  > reciepts and the IRS says they don't and wants them produced.
                  >
                  > Fortunately, I don't take the rest of your post seriously.
                  >
                  > Steve Laib
                  >
                  > buddiebuddiee wrote:
                  >
                  > >
                  > > "My contention is that the Treasury Dept. / IRS carries the
                  burden of
                  > > proof and not the citizen. "
                  > >
                  > > Steve..You stating that the IRS carries the "burden" of proof???
                  > > HELLO???? WHY should any peon keep receipts about themselves that
                  > > would be USED AGAINST them??
                  > >
                  > > INCOME TAX = SLAVERY -- plain & simple!! It's a CONTROL mechanism
                  and
                  > > and EXTORTION!!!
                  > >
                  > > Governments are SERVANTS of the people and pray tell -- WHEN have
                  the
                  > > SERVANTS become the MASTERS and the People their Servants?
                  > >
                  > > And pleeeaaaazzze...DON'T talk about "paying one's share" --
                  THAT's a
                  > > lot of BS!!! Why is it that people LOVE slavery and DON'T want
                  OTHERS
                  > > to get out of THIS prison?
                  > >
                  > > We've been PROGRAMMED from the day we born to ACCEPT authority and
                  > > NOT question ANYTHING OR ANYBODY!
                  > >
                  > > Buddie
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In oldright@yahoogroups.com, Steven Laib <slaib@e...> wrote:
                  > > > Buddie,
                  > > >
                  > > > This is a difficult question to answer. What I believe at
                  bottom
                  > > line
                  > > > is that government believes that
                  > > > it has the right to tax people and to use the IRS as its agency
                  to
                  > > do so
                  > > > with respect to the federal
                  > > > income tax. Actually, over the years I have collected a lot of
                  > > > information on what I call the
                  > > > Lore and Legend of the Income Tax Protest Movement. After
                  > > examining a
                  > > > lot of it in detail I
                  > > > have had to throw some of it out totally. For example, the
                  > > suggestion
                  > > > that people are citizens of their
                  > > > state, and not of the United States. It simply doesn't work.
                  > > However,
                  > > > there are other arguments which
                  > > > might have merit, but are not addressed by the courts or the
                  > > government.
                  > > >
                  > > > My major issue is not whether the income tax is legal, but
                  whether
                  > > it is
                  > > > enforced in a legal fashion.
                  > > > My contention is that the Treasury Dept. / IRS carries the
                  burden
                  > > of
                  > > > proof and not the citizen.
                  > > > Otherwise the citizen is placed in a position of inequity
                  similar
                  > > to
                  > > > that which caused the courts
                  > > > to rule against contracts of adhesion.
                  > > >
                  > > > The government position is to hide behind the myth that most tax
                  > > > proceedings are civil, rather than
                  > > > criminal matters, but that is not relevant. Even in civil
                  matters
                  > > the
                  > > > person making the contention has
                  > > > the burden of proof. If the IRS says you owe the tax then they
                  > > must
                  > > > show how and why.
                  > > >
                  > > > You may want to look at a short piece I have coming up on
                  > > > Intellectualconservative.com in the next
                  > > > few days.
                  > > >
                  > > > I'm originally from Berzerkly Calif. One parent German and the
                  > > other
                  > > > Canadian but naturalized
                  > > > American by serving with the US army in WW 2.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Steve Laib
                  > > >
                  > > > buddiebuddiee wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Steve? You are American, I gather. The IRS. You believe they
                  have
                  > > the
                  > > > > authority to tax people? And do you believe that Income Tax is
                  > > > > Legal/ILLEGAL?
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Am Canadian...Europen-born.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Buddie
                  > > > >
                  > > > > --- In oldright@yahoogroups.com, Steven Laib <slaib@e...>
                  wrote:
                  > > > > > Do they actually investigate is an excellent question. One
                  > > might
                  > > > > also
                  > > > > > ask if they investigate only to
                  > > > > > confirm previously held beliefs, or do they go all the way
                  to
                  > > find
                  > > > > out
                  > > > > > if they are correct in those
                  > > > > > beliefs.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Since I do commentary, my duty is not to present only the
                  facts,
                  > > > > but my
                  > > > > > thinking concerning them.
                  > > > > > When I wrote on exclusively tax law developments, years
                  ago, I
                  > > had
                  > > > > a
                  > > > > > significant duty to be accurate
                  > > > > > in my presentation of what changes had occurred. My
                  comments
                  > > were
                  > > > > my
                  > > > > > own thinking and were
                  > > > > > expected to get people to investigate and draw their own
                  > > > > conclusions.
                  > > > > > This should be extremely
                  > > > > > important in complex areas where people don't often know
                  what is
                  > > > > > happening. I recall some
                  > > > > > items in the Tax Act of 1986 which did exactly the opposite
                  of
                  > > what
                  > > > > the
                  > > > > > legislature wanted and
                  > > > > > had to be rewritten. Thus, it pays to be very careful.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Steve Laib
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > buddiebuddiee wrote:
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > Sartre -- And do they ACTUALLY investigate?? Or they given
                  > > already
                  > > > > > > PREPARED scripts to mouth off on television and in print?!
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > Buddie
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > --- In oldright@yahoogroups.com, "sartrejp"
                  <sartrejp@f...>
                  > > wrote:
                  > > > > > > > Buddie,
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > How about investigating and reporting facts! The role
                  of the
                  > > > > > > commentator is
                  > > > > > > > to offer an explanation for their significance.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > SARTRE
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > > > > > > From: "buddiebuddiee" <Buddie29@h...>
                  > > > > > > > To: <oldright@yahoogroups.com>
                  > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 2:30 PM
                  > > > > > > > Subject: [oldright] Visit BREAKING ALL THE RULES
                  > > http://batr.org
                  > > > > > > First time
                  > > > > > > > post and DON'T know WHY I'm here!LOL
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > > You are ALL intellectuals here with many Doctor/ed
                  > > degrees ;)
                  > > > > and
                  > > > > > > > > some BSers here...no? ;)
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > > My MAJOR beef is with the MAINSTREAM MEDIA..
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > > What is the MAIN job of a reporter/journalist? Anyone
                  here
                  > > > > care to
                  > > > > > > > > enlighten me?
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > > TIA
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > > Buddie
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > > > > > > > > oldright-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                  > > > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
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                  > >
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                  > >
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                  > > > > Service
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                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                  > > Service
                  > > > > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
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                  > >
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                  Service
                  > > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                • Steven Laib
                  Consider, I was invited to join this group in part because of my demonstrated ability. Sartre and I have crossed words on occasion because we disagree, but we
                  Message 8 of 14 , Sep 16, 2003
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                    Consider,

                    I was invited to join this group in part because of my demonstrated ability.  Sartre
                    and I have crossed words on occasion because we disagree, but we do it cordially, and
                    without overt emotional overtones.  We also take the time to read each other's notes and
                    make sure we understand each other before going off half cocked. 

                    I expect, perhaps wrongly, that others take the time and care that I do in forming
                    conclusions before writing back.  After years of intellectual discussion with people
                    of all ranks and education levels I've found that it is a bad idea to form any conclusions
                    too fast and then act on them without thinking. 

                    Now consider that even Ben Franklin said that taxes are the price we pay for civilization. 
                    Jesus said that we should render unto Caesar what is Caesar's.  Tithing has been a constant
                    in the Bible, and in other societies where religion plays a significant role. 

                    These are two starting points for the position that some level of taxation can be considered
                    legitimate.  Of course, I could assume that you are an atheist, or anarchist, but I might be
                    wrong.  Most people I know would agree that government can serve some legitimate
                    service, therefore, it is necessary to find some source of funding.  If you have a better
                    idea than taxation, tell me what it is and I'll listen. 

                    Finally, if I did take the rest of what you wrote seriously, I'd have to write you off as
                    a less than serious participant in this group, and simply ignore what you had to say.
                    That would be a shame for both of us. 

                    Cordially,

                    Steve Laib

                    buddiebuddiee wrote:

                    Ya..You caught me alright. ;) I have a tendency to speedread. :)

                    "Fortunately"???LOL...Why you saying that? Just curious...ok?

                    Buddie


                    --- In oldright@yahoogroups.com, Steven Laib <slaib@e...> wrote:
                    > Buddie,
                    >
                    > I hate to say this, but you haven't been paying attention.
                    >
                    > I said that the IRS should have the burden of proof, but I didn't
                    say
                    > anything about
                    > the citizen having to provide records.  Besides, in most instances,
                    the
                    > citizen has the
                    > reciepts and the IRS says they don't and wants them produced.
                    >
                    > Fortunately, I don't take the rest of your post seriously.
                    >
                    > Steve Laib
                    >
                    > buddiebuddiee wrote:
                    >
                    > >
                    > > "My contention is that the Treasury Dept. / IRS carries the
                    burden of
                    > > proof and not the citizen. "
                    > >
                    > > Steve..You stating that the IRS carries the "burden" of proof???
                    > > HELLO???? WHY should any  peon keep receipts about themselves that
                    > > would be USED AGAINST them??
                    > >
                    > > INCOME TAX = SLAVERY -- plain & simple!! It's a CONTROL mechanism
                    and
                    > > and EXTORTION!!!
                    > >
                    > > Governments are SERVANTS of the people and pray tell -- WHEN have
                    the
                    > > SERVANTS  become the MASTERS and the People their Servants?
                    > >
                    > > And pleeeaaaazzze...DON'T talk about "paying one's share" --
                    THAT's a
                    > > lot of BS!!! Why is it that people LOVE slavery and DON'T want
                    OTHERS
                    > > to get out of THIS prison?
                    > >
                    > > We've been PROGRAMMED from the day we born to ACCEPT authority and
                    > > NOT question ANYTHING OR ANYBODY!
                    > >
                    > > Buddie
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- In oldright@yahoogroups.com, Steven Laib <slaib@e...> wrote:
                    > > > Buddie,
                    > > >
                    > > > This is a difficult question to answer.  What I believe at
                    bottom
                    > > line
                    > > > is that government believes that
                    > > > it has the right to tax people and to use the IRS as its agency
                    to
                    > > do so
                    > > > with respect to the federal
                    > > > income tax.  Actually, over the years I have collected a lot of
                    > > > information on what I call the
                    > > > Lore and Legend of the Income Tax Protest Movement.  After
                    > > examining a
                    > > > lot of it in detail I
                    > > > have had to throw some of it out totally.  For example, the
                    > > suggestion
                    > > > that people are citizens of their
                    > > > state, and not of the United States.  It simply doesn't work.
                    > > However,
                    > > > there are other arguments which
                    > > > might have merit, but are not addressed by the courts or the
                    > > government.
                    > > >
                    > > > My major issue is not whether the income tax is legal, but
                    whether
                    > > it is
                    > > > enforced in a legal fashion.
                    > > > My contention is that the Treasury Dept. / IRS carries the
                    burden
                    > > of
                    > > > proof and not the citizen.
                    > > > Otherwise the citizen is placed in a position of inequity
                    similar
                    > > to
                    > > > that which caused the courts
                    > > > to rule against contracts of adhesion.
                    > > >
                    > > > The government position is to hide behind the myth that most tax
                    > > > proceedings are civil, rather than
                    > > > criminal matters, but that is not relevant.  Even in civil
                    matters
                    > > the
                    > > > person making the contention has
                    > > > the burden of proof.  If the IRS says you owe the tax then they
                    > > must
                    > > > show how and why.
                    > > >
                    > > > You may want to look at a short piece I have coming up on
                    > > > Intellectualconservative.com in the next
                    > > > few days.
                    > > >
                    > > > I'm originally from Berzerkly Calif.  One parent German and the
                    > > other
                    > > > Canadian but naturalized
                    > > > American by serving with the US army in WW 2.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Steve Laib
                    > > >
                    > > > buddiebuddiee wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Steve? You are American, I gather. The IRS. You believe they
                    have
                    > > the
                    > > > > authority to tax people? And do you believe that Income Tax is
                    > > > > Legal/ILLEGAL?
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Am Canadian...Europen-born.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Buddie
                    > > > >
                    > > > > --- In oldright@yahoogroups.com, Steven Laib <slaib@e...>
                    wrote:
                    > > > > > Do they actually investigate is an excellent question.  One
                    > > might
                    > > > > also
                    > > > > > ask if they investigate only to
                    > > > > > confirm previously held beliefs, or do they go all the way
                    to
                    > > find
                    > > > > out
                    > > > > > if they are correct in those
                    > > > > > beliefs.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Since I do commentary, my duty is not to present only the
                    facts,
                    > > > > but my
                    > > > > > thinking concerning them.
                    > > > > > When I wrote on exclusively tax law developments, years
                    ago,  I
                    > > had
                    > > > > a
                    > > > > > significant duty to be accurate
                    > > > > > in my presentation of what  changes had occurred.  My
                    comments
                    > > were
                    > > > > my
                    > > > > > own thinking and were
                    > > > > > expected to get people to investigate and draw their own
                    > > > > conclusions.
                    > > > > > This should be extremely
                    > > > > > important in complex areas where people don't often know
                    what is
                    > > > > > happening.  I recall some
                    > > > > > items in the Tax Act of 1986 which did exactly the opposite
                    of
                    > > what
                    > > > > the
                    > > > > > legislature wanted and
                    > > > > > had to be rewritten.  Thus, it pays to be very careful.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Steve Laib
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > buddiebuddiee wrote:
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Sartre -- And do they ACTUALLY investigate?? Or they given
                    > > already
                    > > > > > > PREPARED scripts to mouth off on television and in print?!
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Buddie
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > --- In oldright@yahoogroups.com, "sartrejp"
                    <sartrejp@f...>
                    > > wrote:
                    > > > > > > > Buddie,
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > How about investigating and reporting facts! The role
                    of the
                    > > > > > > commentator is
                    > > > > > > > to offer an explanation for their significance.
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > SARTRE
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > > > > > > From: "buddiebuddiee" <Buddie29@h...>
                    > > > > > > > To: <oldright@yahoogroups.com>
                    > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 2:30 PM
                    > > > > > > > Subject: [oldright] Visit BREAKING ALL THE RULES
                    > > http://batr.org
                    > > > > > > First time
                    > > > > > > > post and DON'T know WHY I'm here!LOL
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > You are ALL intellectuals here with many Doctor/ed
                    > > degrees ;)
                    > > > > and
                    > > > > > > > > some BSers here...no? ;)
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > My MAJOR beef is with the MAINSTREAM MEDIA..
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > What is the MAIN job of a reporter/journalist? Anyone
                    here
                    > > > > care to
                    > > > > > > > > enlighten me?
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > TIA
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > Buddie
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > > > > > > > > oldright-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                    > > > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                    > > > > > > ADVERTISEMENT
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > >
                    <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=194081.3897168.5135684.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=17
                    > > > >
                    > >
                    05060375:HM/A=1732161/R=0/SIG=11p5b9ris/*http://www.ediets.com/start.c
                    > > > > fm?code=30509&media=atkins>
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > > > > > > oldright-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > > > >
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                  • sam
                    If the reporter on the scene is HONEST he reports what he sees etc. However when he turns his story into his editor who has been bought and paid for by the
                    Message 9 of 14 , Sep 16, 2003
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                      If the reporter on the scene is HONEST
                      he reports what he sees etc.  However
                      when he turns his story into his editor
                      who has been bought and paid for by the
                      powers that be, his original story has
                      bee boiled down to what his boss is
                      allowed to broadcast.  This has been the
                      case for probably close to 100 years.
                       
                      This is not so much on the local level as
                      in the national level for instance the actual
                      number of our boys over in the middle east who have been killed which is thousands and not the hundred that
                      are reported.  Not long ago I read that
                      a grave was found with hundreds of
                      US serviceman's bodies but not a boo from
                      the major media here. I have found that the
                      foreign news will report what the U.S
                      media will not touch which is in many
                      cases the truth.  How many people actually go to foreign newspapers and
                      read articles only to find a lot of stuff
                      that was sorely missing from the news
                      here at home.
                       
                      I often wonder if the opposite is true.
                       
                      s.a.m
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 4:04 PM
                      Subject: [oldright] Visit BREAKING ALL THE RULES http://batr.org Re: Visit BREAKING ALL THE RULES http://batr.org First time post and DON'T know WHY I'm here!LOL


                      Then what you saying, Sam...is that it's ALL LIES -- what the media
                      prints and reads off their prepared scripts?

                      Buddie

                      --- In oldright@yahoogroups.com, "sam" <mugwump@h...> wrote:
                      > ....report the news as they see it before
                      > it is twisted and distorted by their
                      > editors!!!
                      >
                      >
                      >   ----- Original Message -----
                      >   From: buddiebuddiee
                      >   To: oldright@yahoogroups.com
                      >   Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 1:30 PM
                      >   Subject: [oldright] Visit BREAKING ALL THE RULES http://batr.org
                      First time post and DON'T know WHY I'm here!LOL
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >   You are ALL intellectuals here with many Doctor/ed degrees ;) and
                      >   some BSers here...no? ;)
                      >
                      >   My MAJOR beef is with the MAINSTREAM MEDIA..
                      >
                      >   What is the MAIN job of a reporter/journalist? Anyone here care
                      to
                      >   enlighten me?
                      >
                      >   TIA
                      >
                      >   Buddie
                      >
                      >
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                    • buddiebuddiee
                      Forgive me Steve...Am a female and a Scorpio to boot and we emotional type..ok? :) WHY are you throwing in Ben Franklin and Jesus and other fables here? Just
                      Message 10 of 14 , Sep 16, 2003
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                        Forgive me Steve...Am a female and a Scorpio to boot and we emotional
                        type..ok? :)

                        WHY are you throwing in Ben Franklin and Jesus and other fables here?
                        Just cause THEY SUPPOSEDLY said so? Steve..YOU HAVE BEEN PROGRAMMED
                        to think the so-called PAST is the PRESENT. Am going to be jumping
                        from one subject to another...I post what comes out of my head.
                        Sorry, but am NOT like the rest of you here. I like to QUESTION
                        things and people and am NOT intimidated by people's ranks and
                        statures in life. I was brought up in a Christian home, daddy was a
                        preacher man. I know what religion is all about and it ain't pretty.
                        It's ANOTHER way of ENSLAVING people through their BELIEF system. If
                        one does NOT think like the majority -- one is ostracized. I believe
                        in a higher being -- Someone or something created us as human
                        flesh...OR maybe EACH ONE OF US IS A GOD and WE DON'T KNOW IT????
                        History is constanlty being re-written and so has the holy
                        bible/scriptures. Just like MAINSTREAM Media writes LIES these days --
                        what makes you think HIS-tory isn't BASED on LIES? In THOSE days
                        there was NO internet and people relied on other's word-of-mouth
                        tales.

                        As to taxes? How about LOTTERIES? It's SIMPLE and there's NO THREAT
                        from the GESTAPO IRS to hand over one's hard-earned money. It's time
                        for the IRS GESTAPO to get a real job...no? and NOT live off people's
                        FEARS. Something WRONG when people FEAR the IRS MORE than they fear
                        the police, etc.

                        I'm a simple minded person and can't take too much programming in one
                        take. :) I like to keep things SIMPLE.

                        Buddie

                        --- In oldright@yahoogroups.com, Steven Laib <slaib@e...> wrote:
                        > Consider,
                        >
                        > I was invited to join this group in part because of my demonstrated
                        > ability. Sartre
                        > and I have crossed words on occasion because we disagree, but we do
                        it
                        > cordially, and
                        > without overt emotional overtones. We also take the time to read
                        each
                        > other's notes and
                        > make sure we understand each other before going off half cocked.
                        >
                        > I expect, perhaps wrongly, that others take the time and care that
                        I do
                        > in forming
                        > conclusions before writing back. After years of intellectual
                        discussion
                        > with people
                        > of all ranks and education levels I've found that it is a bad idea
                        to
                        > form any conclusions
                        > too fast and then act on them without thinking.
                        >
                        > Now consider that even Ben Franklin said that taxes are the price
                        we pay
                        > for civilization.
                        > Jesus said that we should render unto Caesar what is Caesar's.
                        Tithing
                        > has been a constant
                        > in the Bible, and in other societies where religion plays a
                        significant
                        > role.
                        >
                        > These are two starting points for the position that some level of
                        > taxation can be considered
                        > legitimate. Of course, I could assume that you are an atheist, or
                        > anarchist, but I might be
                        > wrong. Most people I know would agree that government can serve
                        some
                        > legitimate
                        > service, therefore, it is necessary to find some source of
                        funding. If
                        > you have a better
                        > idea than taxation, tell me what it is and I'll listen.
                        >
                        > Finally, if I did take the rest of what you wrote seriously, I'd
                        have to
                        > write you off as
                        > a less than serious participant in this group, and simply ignore
                        what
                        > you had to say.
                        > That would be a shame for both of us.
                        >
                        > Cordially,
                        >
                        > Steve Laib
                        >
                        > buddiebuddiee wrote:
                        >
                        > >
                        > > Ya..You caught me alright. ;) I have a tendency to speedread. :)
                        > >
                        > > "Fortunately"???LOL...Why you saying that? Just curious...ok?
                        > >
                        > > Buddie
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > --- In oldright@yahoogroups.com, Steven Laib <slaib@e...> wrote:
                        > > > Buddie,
                        > > >
                        > > > I hate to say this, but you haven't been paying attention.
                        > > >
                        > > > I said that the IRS should have the burden of proof, but I
                        didn't
                        > > say
                        > > > anything about
                        > > > the citizen having to provide records. Besides, in most
                        instances,
                        > > the
                        > > > citizen has the
                        > > > reciepts and the IRS says they don't and wants them produced.
                        > > >
                        > > > Fortunately, I don't take the rest of your post seriously.
                        > > >
                        > > > Steve Laib
                        > > >
                        > > > buddiebuddiee wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > "My contention is that the Treasury Dept. / IRS carries the
                        > > burden of
                        > > > > proof and not the citizen. "
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Steve..You stating that the IRS carries the "burden" of
                        proof???
                        > > > > HELLO???? WHY should any peon keep receipts about themselves
                        that
                        > > > > would be USED AGAINST them??
                        > > > >
                        > > > > INCOME TAX = SLAVERY -- plain & simple!! It's a CONTROL
                        mechanism
                        > > and
                        > > > > and EXTORTION!!!
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Governments are SERVANTS of the people and pray tell -- WHEN
                        have
                        > > the
                        > > > > SERVANTS become the MASTERS and the People their Servants?
                        > > > >
                        > > > > And pleeeaaaazzze...DON'T talk about "paying one's share" --
                        > > THAT's a
                        > > > > lot of BS!!! Why is it that people LOVE slavery and DON'T want
                        > > OTHERS
                        > > > > to get out of THIS prison?
                        > > > >
                        > > > > We've been PROGRAMMED from the day we born to ACCEPT
                        authority and
                        > > > > NOT question ANYTHING OR ANYBODY!
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Buddie
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > --- In oldright@yahoogroups.com, Steven Laib <slaib@e...>
                        wrote:
                        > > > > > Buddie,
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > This is a difficult question to answer. What I believe at
                        > > bottom
                        > > > > line
                        > > > > > is that government believes that
                        > > > > > it has the right to tax people and to use the IRS as its
                        agency
                        > > to
                        > > > > do so
                        > > > > > with respect to the federal
                        > > > > > income tax. Actually, over the years I have collected a
                        lot of
                        > > > > > information on what I call the
                        > > > > > Lore and Legend of the Income Tax Protest Movement. After
                        > > > > examining a
                        > > > > > lot of it in detail I
                        > > > > > have had to throw some of it out totally. For example, the
                        > > > > suggestion
                        > > > > > that people are citizens of their
                        > > > > > state, and not of the United States. It simply doesn't
                        work.
                        > > > > However,
                        > > > > > there are other arguments which
                        > > > > > might have merit, but are not addressed by the courts or the
                        > > > > government.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > My major issue is not whether the income tax is legal, but
                        > > whether
                        > > > > it is
                        > > > > > enforced in a legal fashion.
                        > > > > > My contention is that the Treasury Dept. / IRS carries the
                        > > burden
                        > > > > of
                        > > > > > proof and not the citizen.
                        > > > > > Otherwise the citizen is placed in a position of inequity
                        > > similar
                        > > > > to
                        > > > > > that which caused the courts
                        > > > > > to rule against contracts of adhesion.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > The government position is to hide behind the myth that
                        most tax
                        > > > > > proceedings are civil, rather than
                        > > > > > criminal matters, but that is not relevant. Even in civil
                        > > matters
                        > > > > the
                        > > > > > person making the contention has
                        > > > > > the burden of proof. If the IRS says you owe the tax then
                        they
                        > > > > must
                        > > > > > show how and why.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > You may want to look at a short piece I have coming up on
                        > > > > > Intellectualconservative.com in the next
                        > > > > > few days.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > I'm originally from Berzerkly Calif. One parent German and
                        the
                        > > > > other
                        > > > > > Canadian but naturalized
                        > > > > > American by serving with the US army in WW 2.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Steve Laib
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > buddiebuddiee wrote:
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Steve? You are American, I gather. The IRS. You believe
                        they
                        > > have
                        > > > > the
                        > > > > > > authority to tax people? And do you believe that Income
                        Tax is
                        > > > > > > Legal/ILLEGAL?
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Am Canadian...Europen-born.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Buddie
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > --- In oldright@yahoogroups.com, Steven Laib <slaib@e...>
                        > > wrote:
                        > > > > > > > Do they actually investigate is an excellent question.
                        One
                        > > > > might
                        > > > > > > also
                        > > > > > > > ask if they investigate only to
                        > > > > > > > confirm previously held beliefs, or do they go all the
                        way
                        > > to
                        > > > > find
                        > > > > > > out
                        > > > > > > > if they are correct in those
                        > > > > > > > beliefs.
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > Since I do commentary, my duty is not to present only
                        the
                        > > facts,
                        > > > > > > but my
                        > > > > > > > thinking concerning them.
                        > > > > > > > When I wrote on exclusively tax law developments, years
                        > > ago, I
                        > > > > had
                        > > > > > > a
                        > > > > > > > significant duty to be accurate
                        > > > > > > > in my presentation of what changes had occurred. My
                        > > comments
                        > > > > were
                        > > > > > > my
                        > > > > > > > own thinking and were
                        > > > > > > > expected to get people to investigate and draw their own
                        > > > > > > conclusions.
                        > > > > > > > This should be extremely
                        > > > > > > > important in complex areas where people don't often know
                        > > what is
                        > > > > > > > happening. I recall some
                        > > > > > > > items in the Tax Act of 1986 which did exactly the
                        opposite
                        > > of
                        > > > > what
                        > > > > > > the
                        > > > > > > > legislature wanted and
                        > > > > > > > had to be rewritten. Thus, it pays to be very careful.
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > Steve Laib
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > buddiebuddiee wrote:
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > Sartre -- And do they ACTUALLY investigate?? Or they
                        given
                        > > > > already
                        > > > > > > > > PREPARED scripts to mouth off on television and in
                        print?!
                        > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > Buddie
                        > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > --- In oldright@yahoogroups.com, "sartrejp"
                        > > <sartrejp@f...>
                        > > > > wrote:
                        > > > > > > > > > Buddie,
                        > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > > How about investigating and reporting facts! The
                        role
                        > > of the
                        > > > > > > > > commentator is
                        > > > > > > > > > to offer an explanation for their significance.
                        > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > > SARTRE
                        > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                        > > > > > > > > > From: "buddiebuddiee" <Buddie29@h...>
                        > > > > > > > > > To: <oldright@yahoogroups.com>
                        > > > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 2:30 PM
                        > > > > > > > > > Subject: [oldright] Visit BREAKING ALL THE RULES
                        > > > > http://batr.org
                        > > > > > > > > First time
                        > > > > > > > > > post and DON'T know WHY I'm here!LOL
                        > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > > > You are ALL intellectuals here with many Doctor/ed
                        > > > > degrees ;)
                        > > > > > > and
                        > > > > > > > > > > some BSers here...no? ;)
                        > > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > > > My MAJOR beef is with the MAINSTREAM MEDIA..
                        > > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > > > What is the MAIN job of a reporter/journalist?
                        Anyone
                        > > here
                        > > > > > > care to
                        > > > > > > > > > > enlighten me?
                        > > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > > > TIA
                        > > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > > > Buddie
                        > > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > > >
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                      • buddiebuddiee
                        Yes..But just how many of the people can actually can read in the USA, S.A.M.? That s the reason Bush & Crooks, Inc. were able to get the people behind in
                        Message 11 of 14 , Sep 16, 2003
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Yes..But just how many of the people can actually can read in the
                          USA, S.A.M.? That's the reason Bush & Crooks, Inc. were able to get
                          the people behind in going to War against Iraq. They DEPEND on
                          TELEVISION -- CNN and FOX and NBC, ABC, CBS, etc., their PARTNERS-IN-
                          CRIME, to HOODWINK the public who's too burdened with taxes and just
                          making a living to care about the lives in some 3rd world country.

                          Buddie
                          Here's Pentagon's Mass Graves for the American soldiers link:

                          http://www.truthout.org/docs_02/012603A.mass.graves.htm




                          The MASS graves -- Pentagon

                          --- In oldright@yahoogroups.com, "sam" <mugwump@h...> wrote:
                          > If the reporter on the scene is HONEST
                          > he reports what he sees etc. However
                          > when he turns his story into his editor
                          > who has been bought and paid for by the
                          > powers that be, his original story has
                          > bee boiled down to what his boss is
                          > allowed to broadcast. This has been the
                          > case for probably close to 100 years.
                          >
                          > This is not so much on the local level as
                          > in the national level for instance the actual
                          > number of our boys over in the middle east who have been killed
                          which is thousands and not the hundred that
                          > are reported. Not long ago I read that
                          > a grave was found with hundreds of
                          > US serviceman's bodies but not a boo from
                          > the major media here. I have found that the
                          > foreign news will report what the U.S
                          > media will not touch which is in many
                          > cases the truth. How many people actually go to foreign newspapers
                          and
                          > read articles only to find a lot of stuff
                          > that was sorely missing from the news
                          > here at home.
                          >
                          > I often wonder if the opposite is true.
                          >
                          > s.a.m
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: buddiebuddiee
                          > To: oldright@yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 4:04 PM
                          > Subject: [oldright] Visit BREAKING ALL THE RULES http://batr.org
                          Re: Visit BREAKING ALL THE RULES http://batr.org First time post and
                          DON'T know WHY I'm here!LOL
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Then what you saying, Sam...is that it's ALL LIES -- what the
                          media
                          > prints and reads off their prepared scripts?
                          >
                          > Buddie
                          >
                          > --- In oldright@yahoogroups.com, "sam" <mugwump@h...> wrote:
                          > > ....report the news as they see it before
                          > > it is twisted and distorted by their
                          > > editors!!!
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > ----- Original Message -----
                          > > From: buddiebuddiee
                          > > To: oldright@yahoogroups.com
                          > > Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 1:30 PM
                          > > Subject: [oldright] Visit BREAKING ALL THE RULES
                          http://batr.org
                          > First time post and DON'T know WHY I'm here!LOL
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > You are ALL intellectuals here with many Doctor/ed degrees ;)
                          and
                          > > some BSers here...no? ;)
                          > >
                          > > My MAJOR beef is with the MAINSTREAM MEDIA..
                          > >
                          > > What is the MAIN job of a reporter/journalist? Anyone here
                          care
                          > to
                          > > enlighten me?
                          > >
                          > > TIA
                          > >
                          > > Buddie
                          > >
                          > >
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                          > >
                          > >
                          > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          > > oldright-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
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