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Re: [oil_from_algae] Re: I'm going to try!

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  • anand katoch
    ken,   As you  being new to algae cultivation my personal advice will be to concentrate on growing and harvesting the algae. Making the process efficient
    Message 1 of 25 , Jul 1, 2008
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      ken,

       

      As you  being new to algae cultivation my personal advice will be to concentrate on growing and harvesting the algae. Making the process efficient will be a later stage effort.

      Algae can happily grow with the amount of CO2 in air and that's the reason blooms happen. If it happens in nature you can force it to happen without infusing CO2.

      The CO2 will surely help in increasing the yield but I am pretty sure you are not thinking of starting up a commercial production unit at this stage.

      Diverting your strength in new technologies and procedure shall pull you away from algae growth and also financially, so if you do not have a digester or a digester generator it wont be necessary at this stage.

      Choosing your culture is the most important thing depending upon your climate condition as the suppler shall surely mention the temperature range of the strain. The wider the range is the better for you as you can use it from spring to fall.

      Compost is a good source to grow algae Caution---- you have to dissolve the compost in water and let it settle for a few hours and siphen the supernatant in the pond or raceway. if you dump the complete thing then there is a high chance for it do decompose in the bottom and create toxic gas and chemicals not good for your algae and secondly your algae will stick to it and settle at the bottom that you do not want.

      Urine is an excellent source of nutrient and minerals and can compensate for all the rare minerals needed for the growth. Horse urine I prefer to go to maximum 1:12 and cow urine 1:15 caution----- the pH of your media has to be adjusted after addition depending upon your culture and do a dilution batch in flask before going to the main pond.

       

      How big setup are you planning and the culture for growth do let us know.

      --- On Mon, 6/30/08, Bobby Yates Emory <liberty1@...> wrote:

      From: Bobby Yates Emory <liberty1@...>
      Subject: Re: [oil_from_algae] Re: I'm going to try!
      To: oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Monday, June 30, 2008, 11:06 PM

      Ken,

      Both viewpoints you have heard about algae are probably correct.  To get the kind of productiveness that we are looking for,  we will have to get everything right.  It will probably take a lot of testing to work that out.

      Part of the reason for an AD is to generate CH4. (There will be CO2 mixed in.)  You can feed that to a generator, which will produce enough electricity to run your farm.   The exhaust from the generator can be feed to the algae for CO2.

      If that is too much complexity, a paddlewheel will stir in enough CO2 to grow algae.

      Nothing wrong with doing things your way.  Some scientific advancements were totally unexpected - your compost idea might work out.  But if it doesn't work well, don't give up on algae.  There are many was to grow algae that have been proven to work.

      Bobby

      On 6/30/08, Ken Buegeleisen <kbuegel@...> wrote:

      So dsved brings up a good point.  I've heard mixed information on the importance of CO2 as a resource for algae growth.  Some say it is crucial, others say that lack of CO2 is rarely the controlling factor and its more about pond chemistry, temperature, sunlight, contaminates, etc.  Perhaps this is dependent on the strains of algae that is growing, but it would be nice to get some clarity on this issue.  I don't want to bother with a methane digester and running an engine just to produce CO2.

       

      As for using manure to grow algae, I was actually expecting to have to compost the manure first before using it.  Currently I compost all our horse manure combined with wood chips and sawdust and it makes an excellent compost which I sell.  Its pretty much a hummus.   The NPK values are not very high, but the vegetables I'm growing on the compost seem to think its great.  I can always add chemical fertilizers as well.  But the point of adding the compost was that its a source of carbon, and everyone has seen how natural pond algae blooms when bio matter waste is added, so I figured that using compost might make a good carbon source for algae. 

       

      Frankly, I intend to try compost in algae ponds no matter what, just to prove or disprove the concept.  Perhaps I'll have to develop algae that likes that material.  We'll see.



      --- On Mon, 6/30/08, dsved <vedrina@...> wrote:

      From: dsved <vedrina@...>
      Subject: [oil_from_algae] Re: I'm going to try!
      To: oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Monday, June 30, 2008, 1:36 AM

      Hi,

      You cant feed organic waste to the algae. You need to transform it
      into fertilizers by means of anaerobic digestion, that is done by
      using anaerobic bacteria. If you would place waste into your pond (or
      some reactor section), it will infect your algae, and there are no
      anaerobic conditions either. I'm suggesting that you build small
      biogas facility (if you plan small production of SVO), in which you
      will put organic waste and after a while you get CO2/methane mixture
      and organic fertilizer.

      C02/CH4 gas can be simply burned to get only CO2, or it can be used
      for running a electricity generator, since the CH4 content is up to 75
      %vol. Organic fertilizer that comes out of digester is liquid, but it
      must be cleaned of the particles and sterilized.

      Anaerobic digestion is technology for itself and the digester
      (anaerobic bioreactor) is of course not cheap to build. Another
      possibility is to build your algae facility close to some power plant.
      But without CO2 source algae growing doesn't make much sense.




      --
      Toward freedom,

      Bobby Yates Emory

    • Wespur
      Hello, Can you just put miracle grow plant food into the algae and make it grow faster ? seams like it is cheap enough if it works.   Wes ... From: anand
      Message 2 of 25 , Jul 1, 2008
      • 0 Attachment
        Hello,
        Can you just put miracle grow plant food into the algae and make it grow faster ? seams like it is cheap enough if it works.
          Wes

        --- On Tue, 7/1/08, anand katoch <askatoch@...> wrote:
        From: anand katoch <askatoch@...>
        Subject: Re: [oil_from_algae] Re: I'm going to try!
        To: oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Tuesday, July 1, 2008, 7:03 AM

        ken,

         

        As you  being new to algae cultivation my personal advice will be to concentrate on growing and harvesting the algae. Making the process efficient will be a later stage effort.

        Algae can happily grow with the amount of CO2 in air and that's the reason blooms happen. If it happens in nature you can force it to happen without infusing CO2.

        The CO2 will surely help in increasing the yield but I am pretty sure you are not thinking of starting up a commercial production unit at this stage.

        Diverting your strength in new technologies and procedure shall pull you away from algae growth and also financially, so if you do not have a digester or a digester generator it wont be necessary at this stage.

        Choosing your culture is the most important thing depending upon your climate condition as the suppler shall surely mention the temperature range of the strain. The wider the range is the better for you as you can use it from spring to fall.

        Compost is a good source to grow algae Caution---- you have to dissolve the compost in water and let it settle for a few hours and siphen the supernatant in the pond or raceway. if you dump the complete thing then there is a high chance for it do decompose in the bottom and create toxic gas and chemicals not good for your algae and secondly your algae will stick to it and settle at the bottom that you do not want.

        Urine is an excellent source of nutrient and minerals and can compensate for all the rare minerals needed for the growth. Horse urine I prefer to go to maximum 1:12 and cow urine 1:15 caution----- the pH of your media has to be adjusted after addition depending upon your culture and do a dilution batch in flask before going to the main pond.

         

        How big setup are you planning and the culture for growth do let us know.

        --- On Mon, 6/30/08, Bobby Yates Emory <liberty1@gmail. com> wrote:

        From: Bobby Yates Emory <liberty1@gmail. com>
        Subject: Re: [oil_from_algae] Re: I'm going to try!
        To: oil_from_algae@ yahoogroups. com
        Date: Monday, June 30, 2008, 11:06 PM

        Ken,

        Both viewpoints you have heard about algae are probably correct.  To get the kind of productiveness that we are looking for,  we will have to get everything right.  It will probably take a lot of testing to work that out.

        Part of the reason for an AD is to generate CH4. (There will be CO2 mixed in.)  You can feed that to a generator, which will produce enough electricity to run your farm.   The exhaust from the generator can be feed to the algae for CO2.

        If that is too much complexity, a paddlewheel will stir in enough CO2 to grow algae.

        Nothing wrong with doing things your way.  Some scientific advancements were totally unexpected - your compost idea might work out.  But if it doesn't work well, don't give up on algae.  There are many was to grow algae that have been proven to work.

        Bobby

        On 6/30/08, Ken Buegeleisen <kbuegel@yahoo. com> wrote:

        So dsved brings up a good point.  I've heard mixed information on the importance of CO2 as a resource for algae growth.  Some say it is crucial, others say that lack of CO2 is rarely the controlling factor and its more about pond chemistry, temperature, sunlight, contaminates, etc.  Perhaps this is dependent on the strains of algae that is growing, but it would be nice to get some clarity on this issue.  I don't want to bother with a methane digester and running an engine just to produce CO2.

         

        As for using manure to grow algae, I was actually expecting to have to compost the manure first before using it.  Currently I compost all our horse manure combined with wood chips and sawdust and it makes an excellent compost which I sell.  Its pretty much a hummus.   The NPK values are not very high, but the vegetables I'm growing on the compost seem to think its great.  I can always add chemical fertilizers as well.  But the point of adding the compost was that its a source of carbon, and everyone has seen how natural pond algae blooms when bio matter waste is added, so I figured that using compost might make a good carbon source for algae. 

         

        Frankly, I intend to try compost in algae ponds no matter what, just to prove or disprove the concept.  Perhaps I'll have to develop algae that likes that material.  We'll see.



        --- On Mon, 6/30/08, dsved <vedrina@fkit. hr> wrote:

        From: dsved <vedrina@fkit. hr>
        Subject: [oil_from_algae] Re: I'm going to try!
        To: oil_from_algae@ yahoogroups. com
        Date: Monday, June 30, 2008, 1:36 AM

        Hi,

        You cant feed organic waste to the algae. You need to transform it
        into fertilizers by means of anaerobic digestion, that is done by
        using anaerobic bacteria. If you would place waste into your pond (or
        some reactor section), it will infect your algae, and there are no
        anaerobic conditions either. I'm suggesting that you build small
        biogas facility (if you plan small production of SVO), in which you
        will put organic waste and after a while you get CO2/methane mixture
        and organic fertilizer.

        C02/CH4 gas can be simply burned to get only CO2, or it can be used
        for running a electricity generator, since the CH4 content is up to 75
        %vol. Organic fertilizer that comes out of digester is liquid, but it
        must be cleaned of the particles and sterilized.

        Anaerobic digestion is technology for itself and the digester
        (anaerobic bioreactor) is of course not cheap to build. Another
        possibility is to build your algae facility close to some power plant.
        But without CO2 source algae growing doesn't make much sense.




        --
        Toward freedom,

        Bobby Yates Emory


      • Bill Washington
        What about the approach of putting the organic matter, be it compost, plant material, manure, etc, into a porous bag, then dunking it in a drum of water, and
        Message 3 of 25 , Jul 1, 2008
        • 0 Attachment
          What about the approach of putting the organic matter, be it compost,
          plant material, manure, etc, into a porous bag, then dunking it in a
          drum of water, and holding it submerged for a week or two, then
          siphoning off the water from the drum, diluting it appropriately, and
          supplying it to the algae as nutrient solution.
          This approach is used by gardeners to extract the goodness from weeds,
          etc to feed their garden .....
          Regards
          Bill

          This email may be confidential and/or privileged. Only the intended recipient may access or use it. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete this email and notify NEC Australia Pty Ltd promptly. NEC uses antivirus software but excludes all liability for viruses or similar in any attachment.
          Please consider our environment before printing this email.
        • Bobby Yates Emory
          Anand and Ken, I think what you are describing is sometimes called making compost tea. Bobby ... -- Toward freedom, Bobby Yates Emory
          Message 4 of 25 , Jul 1, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            Anand and Ken,

            I think what you are describing is sometimes called making compost tea.

            Bobby

            On 7/1/08, anand katoch <askatoch@...> wrote:

            ken,

             

            As you  being new to algae cultivation my personal advice will be to concentrate on growing and harvesting the algae. Making the process efficient will be a later stage effort.

            Algae can happily grow with the amount of CO2 in air and that's the reason blooms happen. If it happens in nature you can force it to happen without infusing CO2.

            The CO2 will surely help in increasing the yield but I am pretty sure you are not thinking of starting up a commercial production unit at this stage.

            Diverting your strength in new technologies and procedure shall pull you away from algae growth and also financially, so if you do not have a digester or a digester generator it wont be necessary at this stage.

            Choosing your culture is the most important thing depending upon your climate condition as the suppler shall surely mention the temperature range of the strain. The wider the range is the better for you as you can use it from spring to fall.

            Compost is a good source to grow algae Caution---- you have to dissolve the compost in water and let it settle for a few hours and siphen the supernatant in the pond or raceway. if you dump the complete thing then there is a high chance for it do decompose in the bottom and create toxic gas and chemicals not good for your algae and secondly your algae will stick to it and settle at the bottom that you do not want.

            Urine is an excellent source of nutrient and minerals and can compensate for all the rare minerals needed for the growth. Horse urine I prefer to go to maximum 1:12 and cow urine 1:15 caution----- the pH of your media has to be adjusted after addition depending upon your culture and do a dilution batch in flask before going to the main pond.

             

            How big setup are you planning and the culture for growth do let us know.

            --- On Mon, 6/30/08, Bobby Yates Emory <liberty1@...> wrote:

            From: Bobby Yates Emory <liberty1@...>
            Subject: Re: [oil_from_algae] Re: I'm going to try!
            To: oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Monday, June 30, 2008, 11:06 PM

            Ken,

            Both viewpoints you have heard about algae are probably correct.  To get the kind of productiveness that we are looking for,  we will have to get everything right.  It will probably take a lot of testing to work that out.

            Part of the reason for an AD is to generate CH4. (There will be CO2 mixed in.)  You can feed that to a generator, which will produce enough electricity to run your farm.   The exhaust from the generator can be feed to the algae for CO2.

            If that is too much complexity, a paddlewheel will stir in enough CO2 to grow algae.

            Nothing wrong with doing things your way.  Some scientific advancements were totally unexpected - your compost idea might work out.  But if it doesn't work well, don't give up on algae.  There are many was to grow algae that have been proven to work.

            Bobby

            On 6/30/08, Ken Buegeleisen <kbuegel@...> wrote:

            So dsved brings up a good point.  I've heard mixed information on the importance of CO2 as a resource for algae growth.  Some say it is crucial, others say that lack of CO2 is rarely the controlling factor and its more about pond chemistry, temperature, sunlight, contaminates, etc.  Perhaps this is dependent on the strains of algae that is growing, but it would be nice to get some clarity on this issue.  I don't want to bother with a methane digester and running an engine just to produce CO2.

             

            As for using manure to grow algae, I was actually expecting to have to compost the manure first before using it.  Currently I compost all our horse manure combined with wood chips and sawdust and it makes an excellent compost which I sell.  Its pretty much a hummus.   The NPK values are not very high, but the vegetables I'm growing on the compost seem to think its great.  I can always add chemical fertilizers as well.  But the point of adding the compost was that its a source of carbon, and everyone has seen how natural pond algae blooms when bio matter waste is added, so I figured that using compost might make a good carbon source for algae. 

             

            Frankly, I intend to try compost in algae ponds no matter what, just to prove or disprove the concept.  Perhaps I'll have to develop algae that likes that material.  We'll see.



            --- On Mon, 6/30/08, dsved <vedrina@...> wrote:

            From: dsved <vedrina@...>
            Subject: [oil_from_algae] Re: I'm going to try!
            To: oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Monday, June 30, 2008, 1:36 AM

            Hi,

            You cant feed organic waste to the algae. You need to transform it
            into fertilizers by means of anaerobic digestion, that is done by
            using anaerobic bacteria. If you would place waste into your pond (or
            some reactor section), it will infect your algae, and there are no
            anaerobic conditions either. I'm suggesting that you build small
            biogas facility (if you plan small production of SVO), in which you
            will put organic waste and after a while you get CO2/methane mixture
            and organic fertilizer.

            C02/CH4 gas can be simply burned to get only CO2, or it can be used
            for running a electricity generator, since the CH4 content is up to 75
            %vol. Organic fertilizer that comes out of digester is liquid, but it
            must be cleaned of the particles and sterilized.

            Anaerobic digestion is technology for itself and the digester
            (anaerobic bioreactor) is of course not cheap to build. Another
            possibility is to build your algae facility close to some power plant.
            But without CO2 source algae growing doesn't make much sense.




            --
            Toward freedom,

            Bobby Yates Emory




            --
            Toward freedom,

            Bobby Yates Emory
          • Bobby Yates Emory
            Bill, That may work. I think that is called compost tea. Bobby ... -- Toward freedom, Bobby Yates Emory
            Message 5 of 25 , Jul 1, 2008
            • 0 Attachment
              Bill,

              That may work.

              I think that is called compost tea.

              Bobby

              On 7/1/08, Bill Washington <bill.washington@...> wrote:

              What about the approach of putting the organic matter, be it compost,
              plant material, manure, etc, into a porous bag, then dunking it in a
              drum of water, and holding it submerged for a week or two, then
              siphoning off the water from the drum, diluting it appropriately, and
              supplying it to the algae as nutrient solution.
              This approach is used by gardeners to extract the goodness from weeds,
              etc to feed their garden .....
              Regards
              Bill

              This email may be confidential and/or privileged. Only the intended recipient may access or use it. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete this email and notify NEC Australia Pty Ltd promptly. NEC uses antivirus software but excludes all liability for viruses or similar in any attachment.
              Please consider our environment before printing this email.




              --
              Toward freedom,

              Bobby Yates Emory
            • Bobby Yates Emory
              Wes, Reports are that it may make the algae grow or it may kill it. MG contains cooper, which is used to kill algae. I am hoping that we can find a MG
              Message 6 of 25 , Jul 1, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                Wes,

                Reports are that it may make the algae grow or it may kill it.  MG contains cooper, which is used to kill algae.

                I am hoping that we can find a MG substitute that does not contain cooper.

                Bobby

                On 7/1/08, Wespur <westpur@...> wrote:

                Hello,
                Can you just put miracle grow plant food into the algae and make it grow faster ? seams like it is cheap enough if it works.
                  Wes

                --- On Tue, 7/1/08, anand katoch <askatoch@...> wrote:
                From: anand katoch <askatoch@...>
                Subject: Re: [oil_from_algae] Re: I'm going to try!
                To: oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Tuesday, July 1, 2008, 7:03 AM


                ken,

                 

                As you  being new to algae cultivation my personal advice will be to concentrate on growing and harvesting the algae. Making the process efficient will be a later stage effort.

                Algae can happily grow with the amount of CO2 in air and that's the reason blooms happen. If it happens in nature you can force it to happen without infusing CO2.

                The CO2 will surely help in increasing the yield but I am pretty sure you are not thinking of starting up a commercial production unit at this stage.

                Diverting your strength in new technologies and procedure shall pull you away from algae growth and also financially, so if you do not have a digester or a digester generator it wont be necessary at this stage.

                Choosing your culture is the most important thing depending upon your climate condition as the suppler shall surely mention the temperature range of the strain. The wider the range is the better for you as you can use it from spring to fall.

                Compost is a good source to grow algae Caution---- you have to dissolve the compost in water and let it settle for a few hours and siphen the supernatant in the pond or raceway. if you dump the complete thing then there is a high chance for it do decompose in the bottom and create toxic gas and chemicals not good for your algae and secondly your algae will stick to it and settle at the bottom that you do not want.

                Urine is an excellent source of nutrient and minerals and can compensate for all the rare minerals needed for the growth. Horse urine I prefer to go to maximum 1:12 and cow urine 1:15 caution----- the pH of your media has to be adjusted after addition depending upon your culture and do a dilution batch in flask before going to the main pond.

                 

                How big setup are you planning and the culture for growth do let us know.

                --- On Mon, 6/30/08, Bobby Yates Emory <liberty1@gmail. com> wrote:

                From: Bobby Yates Emory <liberty1@gmail. com>
                Subject: Re: [oil_from_algae] Re: I'm going to try!
                To: oil_from_algae@ yahoogroups. com
                Date: Monday, June 30, 2008, 11:06 PM

                Ken,

                Both viewpoints you have heard about algae are probably correct.  To get the kind of productiveness that we are looking for,  we will have to get everything right.  It will probably take a lot of testing to work that out.

                Part of the reason for an AD is to generate CH4. (There will be CO2 mixed in.)  You can feed that to a generator, which will produce enough electricity to run your farm.   The exhaust from the generator can be feed to the algae for CO2.

                If that is too much complexity, a paddlewheel will stir in enough CO2 to grow algae.

                Nothing wrong with doing things your way.  Some scientific advancements were totally unexpected - your compost idea might work out.  But if it doesn't work well, don't give up on algae.  There are many was to grow algae that have been proven to work.

                Bobby

                On 6/30/08, Ken Buegeleisen <kbuegel@yahoo. com> wrote:

                So dsved brings up a good point.  I've heard mixed information on the importance of CO2 as a resource for algae growth.  Some say it is crucial, others say that lack of CO2 is rarely the controlling factor and its more about pond chemistry, temperature, sunlight, contaminates, etc.  Perhaps this is dependent on the strains of algae that is growing, but it would be nice to get some clarity on this issue.  I don't want to bother with a methane digester and running an engine just to produce CO2.

                 

                As for using manure to grow algae, I was actually expecting to have to compost the manure first before using it.  Currently I compost all our horse manure combined with wood chips and sawdust and it makes an excellent compost which I sell.  Its pretty much a hummus.   The NPK values are not very high, but the vegetables I'm growing on the compost seem to think its great.  I can always add chemical fertilizers as well.  But the point of adding the compost was that its a source of carbon, and everyone has seen how natural pond algae blooms when bio matter waste is added, so I figured that using compost might make a good carbon source for algae. 

                 

                Frankly, I intend to try compost in algae ponds no matter what, just to prove or disprove the concept.  Perhaps I'll have to develop algae that likes that material.  We'll see.



                --- On Mon, 6/30/08, dsved <vedrina@fkit. hr> wrote:

                From: dsved <vedrina@fkit. hr>
                Subject: [oil_from_algae] Re: I'm going to try!
                To: oil_from_algae@ yahoogroups. com
                Date: Monday, June 30, 2008, 1:36 AM

                Hi,

                You cant feed organic waste to the algae. You need to transform it
                into fertilizers by means of anaerobic digestion, that is done by
                using anaerobic bacteria. If you would place waste into your pond (or
                some reactor section), it will infect your algae, and there are no
                anaerobic conditions either. I'm suggesting that you build small
                biogas facility (if you plan small production of SVO), in which you
                will put organic waste and after a while you get CO2/methane mixture
                and organic fertilizer.

                C02/CH4 gas can be simply burned to get only CO2, or it can be used
                for running a electricity generator, since the CH4 content is up to 75
                %vol. Organic fertilizer that comes out of digester is liquid, but it
                must be cleaned of the particles and sterilized.

                Anaerobic digestion is technology for itself and the digester
                (anaerobic bioreactor) is of course not cheap to build. Another
                possibility is to build your algae facility close to some power plant.
                But without CO2 source algae growing doesn't make much sense.




                --
                Toward freedom,

                Bobby Yates Emory





                --
                Toward freedom,

                Bobby Yates Emory
              • Rob
                Ken - Welcome! I ll look forward to your experiences. We seem to have similar goals, more self sufficiency than trying to save the world. Free fuel for my
                Message 7 of 25 , Jul 2, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  Ken - Welcome!

                  I'll look forward to your experiences. We seem to have similar
                  goals, more self sufficiency than trying to save the world. Free
                  fuel for my tractor and maybe a way to heat my greenhouse and i'll
                  be happy.

                  Since i have yet to dip a toe into this, but the thoughts have been
                  running around my head for a few years i'll venture to take some
                  ignorant guesses at answering your questions and others can correct
                  me...

                  1.) CO2 is a benefit but i am not sure it is required in all but the
                  most intensive systems. I think the reason you hear so much about
                  pumping CO2 into a system is that the thrust seems to be towards
                  sequestering the CO2 and not so much at producing oil, though that
                  is changing.

                  A comment on your thought about "a pond with a low layer of bio
                  matter that will decompose"... Think Stink! Hopefully you have
                  enough acres where there won't be any neighbors to complain, but
                  this could be a major concern anywhere else.

                  2.) Low tech vs. high tech... a tough thing to determine. Myself,
                  i'm pretty low tech as that means less (reasonable) investment.
                  This is a hobby that hopefully will pay for itself. The thought is
                  if i can be successful at feeding my tractor, scaling up is not an
                  issue unless i am looking for investor money. I am more interested
                  in figuring out a system that works for a homeowner at several
                  levels that can be built by anyone for a reasonable amount of work.

                  3.) Biohazard from algae should be minimal unless you are using a
                  genetically modified strain. Depending on your composting scheme, i
                  imagine there could be a risk from bacteria.

                  4.) No comments on oil extraction methods. First i have to produce
                  some algae!

                  Just to fill everyone in, my system will be greenhouse based. I am
                  building (ever so slowly!) a greenhouse aquaponics facility. I
                  envision instead of, or in addition to, growing lettuce or basil, i
                  will be growing algae. In a typical aquaponic system, the animals
                  raised produce waste and CO2 which is broken down into fertilizer
                  componants that can be utilized by the plants (Algae). The algae
                  can be used for oil to fuel tractors and generators and the algae
                  cake for feeding the aquatic stock. I know... sounds much like a
                  perpetual motion machine that there has to be issues i am not
                  seeing. *grin*

                  Best of luck to you Ken!

                  Rob

                  --- In oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com, "kbuegel" <kbuegel@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi folks, been reading this group for the past couple weeks and
                  I'm
                  > encouraged by the information. I'm willing to try to produce some
                  > diesel or at least SVO from algae.
                  >
                  > Here's my situation: I have a horse ranch and live in sunny
                  > California. Right now, during the summer, conditions are ideal
                  for
                  > growing algae (as long as we don't burn down in a grass fire!
                  lol).
                  > However, in the winter it will be different, but thats part of the
                  > challenge! I have a tractor that uses diesel, so that is my end-
                  > user so to speak. Plus I'm sure I can give away free fuel for
                  > people with diesel trucks to test, and I know one guy who has an
                  SVO
                  > conversion on his truck.
                  > So I have space, I have lots of bio material in the form of horse
                  > poop, hay, wood shavings, tree clippings, etc. I generally
                  compost
                  > most of the bio material, but I'm hoping to use some of it as
                  algae
                  > food.
                  >
                  > So let me ask a few questions if you don't mind:
                  > 1) I understand one of the growth limiters for algae is the
                  > abundance of available carbon sources in the water. Thus some
                  > people pump CO2 into water, etc. If I was to build a pond with a
                  > low layer of bio matter that will decompose, that decomposing bio
                  > matter should release a lot of methane and CO2 into the water, and
                  > also use up oxygen produced by the algae. As long as it stays
                  > anarobic, it seems like a good way to keep the algae fed with
                  > carbon, and the algae can be on the top layer of water to get sun.
                  > Has anyone tried something like this? Any comments on this?
                  >
                  > 2) Seems like most of the reason biofuels don't scale up is the
                  > prototype design involves a lot of processes that themselves take
                  > more energy than the biofuels produce. Am I correct? If so, I'm
                  > going to focus on low-intensity production processes. Perhaps use
                  > solar panels for electricity, if electricity is needed at all
                  > (probably would be for the final squeezing of oil). For washing
                  and
                  > water seperation and drying, seems like those could be done in low-
                  > intensity ways that just involve using time, gravity and the sun.
                  > Of course, it may take a lot of time, but I don't think time is as
                  > costly as electricity. Long production times can be overcome by
                  > increased capacity, or increased efficiency, both of which are
                  > likely if the overall process is successful.
                  >
                  > 3) Bio-hazard concerns. Does anyone know if growing cultured
                  algae
                  > represents a bio-hazard? If the cultured algae escaped into local
                  > creeks, would it devastate the environment? I would think this
                  > might require permits to do on private property. I may skip
                  permits
                  > in the beginning, but eventually would need them. So any help on
                  > permits and bio-hazard concerns would be appreciated.
                  >
                  > 4) I'd like to process on-site at least down to the SVO stage, and
                  > perhaps make diesel. I can also feed dried algae to our horses. I
                  > was planning on using physical processes to
                  squeeze/excreet/separate
                  > lipids from the algae material. I've seen small-scale processing
                  > units similar to grain crushers that seem to work for algae. Does
                  > anyone have experience with these types of processes? Is
                  physically
                  > seperating the lipids a better/worse method than using chemicals
                  or
                  > heat and catalysts?
                  >
                  > As I go along, I will share my experiences and photos with the
                  > group. And I'll be reading up for any new bits of info people
                  > share. I'm excited to get something started, and hopeful that I
                  > might be able to make a small contribution to this new field.
                  >
                  > Thanks in advance for everyone's help!!
                  >
                • Xi Gu Dai
                  A bit of fodder from my 40 years of experience:   As I explained in a previous posting, I am an environmental consultant/microbiologist.  I have worked in
                  Message 8 of 25 , Jul 2, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment

                    A bit of fodder from my 40 years of experience:

                     

                    As I explained in a previous posting, I am an environmental consultant/microbiologist.  I have worked in soil and water remediation for most of those 40 years.  One of my toughest jobs was trying to keep algae out of aquaculture environments.  I used every sort of product and suggestion that was available to me. Most usually, I won the battle. In doing so, I discovered and learned much about what makes the various algae species grow and go thru their cycles. 

                    I have also products and developed technologies to make algae bloom. 

                    One of you suggested the use of manure.  Because of its constituents, dairy cow manure is probably the best and most useful waste product available. (I am sure all of you have heard the oil companies casting blame upon the dairy industry and pointing their crude oil dripping fingers at the poor live stock industry as the CO2 culprit)

                    Also, if it was at all possible, try to build your PBR adjacent to a (sewage) water treatment facility.  There is an abundance of waste water that has been dechlorinated and full of nutrients, including CO2.  If your local municipality wants to contribute to a "greener" tomorrow, they should be happy to rent, lease and/or allow the construction of your PBR so Algae-fuel can be produced. 

                    Do any of you have any sort of facility up and running?  I would like to hear from you.

                    Thanks all,

                    Dale Hallcom

                    --- On Tue, 7/1/08, Bobby Yates Emory <liberty1@...> wrote:

                    From: Bobby Yates Emory <liberty1@...>
                    Subject: Re: [oil_from_algae] Re: I'm going to try!
                    To: oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Tuesday, July 1, 2008, 6:55 PM

                    Anand and Ken,

                    I think what you are describing is sometimes called making compost tea.

                    Bobby

                    On 7/1/08, anand katoch <askatoch@yahoo. com> wrote:

                    ken,

                     

                    As you  being new to algae cultivation my personal advice will be to concentrate on growing and harvesting the algae. Making the process efficient will be a later stage effort.

                    Algae can happily grow with the amount of CO2 in air and that's the reason blooms happen. If it happens in nature you can force it to happen without infusing CO2.

                    The CO2 will surely help in increasing the yield but I am pretty sure you are not thinking of starting up a commercial production unit at this stage.

                    Diverting your strength in new technologies and procedure shall pull you away from algae growth and also financially, so if you do not have a digester or a digester generator it wont be necessary at this stage.

                    Choosing your culture is the most important thing depending upon your climate condition as the suppler shall surely mention the temperature range of the strain. The wider the range is the better for you as you can use it from spring to fall.

                    Compost is a good source to grow algae Caution---- you have to dissolve the compost in water and let it settle for a few hours and siphen the supernatant in the pond or raceway. if you dump the complete thing then there is a high chance for it do decompose in the bottom and create toxic gas and chemicals not good for your algae and secondly your algae will stick to it and settle at the bottom that you do not want.

                    Urine is an excellent source of nutrient and minerals and can compensate for all the rare minerals needed for the growth. Horse urine I prefer to go to maximum 1:12 and cow urine 1:15 caution----- the pH of your media has to be adjusted after addition depending upon your culture and do a dilution batch in flask before going to the main pond.

                     

                    How big setup are you planning and the culture for growth do let us know.

                    --- On Mon, 6/30/08, Bobby Yates Emory <liberty1@gmail. com> wrote:

                    From: Bobby Yates Emory <liberty1@gmail. com>
                    Subject: Re: [oil_from_algae] Re: I'm going to try!
                    To: oil_from_algae@ yahoogroups. com
                    Date: Monday, June 30, 2008, 11:06 PM

                    Ken,

                    Both viewpoints you have heard about algae are probably correct.  To get the kind of productiveness that we are looking for,  we will have to get everything right.  It will probably take a lot of testing to work that out.

                    Part of the reason for an AD is to generate CH4. (There will be CO2 mixed in.)  You can feed that to a generator, which will produce enough electricity to run your farm.   The exhaust from the generator can be feed to the algae for CO2.

                    If that is too much complexity, a paddlewheel will stir in enough CO2 to grow algae.

                    Nothing wrong with doing things your way.  Some scientific advancements were totally unexpected - your compost idea might work out.  But if it doesn't work well, don't give up on algae.  There are many was to grow algae that have been proven to work.

                    Bobby

                    On 6/30/08, Ken Buegeleisen <kbuegel@yahoo. com> wrote:

                    So dsved brings up a good point.  I've heard mixed information on the importance of CO2 as a resource for algae growth.  Some say it is crucial, others say that lack of CO2 is rarely the controlling factor and its more about pond chemistry, temperature, sunlight, contaminates, etc.  Perhaps this is dependent on the strains of algae that is growing, but it would be nice to get some clarity on this issue.  I don't want to bother with a methane digester and running an engine just to produce CO2.

                     

                    As for using manure to grow algae, I was actually expecting to have to compost the manure first before using it.  Currently I compost all our horse manure combined with wood chips and sawdust and it makes an excellent compost which I sell.  Its pretty much a hummus.   The NPK values are not very high, but the vegetables I'm growing on the compost seem to think its great.  I can always add chemical fertilizers as well.  But the point of adding the compost was that its a source of carbon, and everyone has seen how natural pond algae blooms when bio matter waste is added, so I figured that using compost might make a good carbon source for algae. 

                     

                    Frankly, I intend to try compost in algae ponds no matter what, just to prove or disprove the concept.  Perhaps I'll have to develop algae that likes that material.  We'll see.



                    --- On Mon, 6/30/08, dsved <vedrina@fkit. hr> wrote:

                    From: dsved <vedrina@fkit. hr>
                    Subject: [oil_from_algae] Re: I'm going to try!
                    To: oil_from_algae@ yahoogroups. com
                    Date: Monday, June 30, 2008, 1:36 AM

                    Hi,

                    You cant feed organic waste to the algae. You need to transform it
                    into fertilizers by means of anaerobic digestion, that is done by
                    using anaerobic bacteria. If you would place waste into your pond (or
                    some reactor section), it will infect your algae, and there are no
                    anaerobic conditions either. I'm suggesting that you build small
                    biogas facility (if you plan small production of SVO), in which you
                    will put organic waste and after a while you get CO2/methane mixture
                    and organic fertilizer.

                    C02/CH4 gas can be simply burned to get only CO2, or it can be used
                    for running a electricity generator, since the CH4 content is up to 75
                    %vol. Organic fertilizer that comes out of digester is liquid, but it
                    must be cleaned of the particles and sterilized.

                    Anaerobic digestion is technology for itself and the digester
                    (anaerobic bioreactor) is of course not cheap to build. Another
                    possibility is to build your algae facility close to some power plant.
                    But without CO2 source algae growing doesn't make much sense.




                    --
                    Toward freedom,

                    Bobby Yates Emory




                    --
                    Toward freedom,

                    Bobby Yates Emory

                  • Ken Buegeleisen
                    Xi, I m glad to hear you have a lot of experience with growing (and killing) algae!  Can you give me some tips?  If you can share your experiences with us,
                    Message 9 of 25 , Jul 2, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment

                      Xi, I'm glad to hear you have a lot of experience with growing (and killing) algae!  Can you give me some tips?  If you can share your experiences with us, that would be great!   I am hoping you can share detaisl about what techniques work, what might cause problems, what might trigger algae to go into stress so it produces lipids, how to harvest, that sort of thing.

                       

                      I'm still building outdoor ponds, probably 5 or 6 small 6x6 foot ponds using plastic liners.  Not sure how deep yet, might experiment with that.  Will also experiment with agitating the water and adding different types of nutriets and so forth.  I want to try to grow algae under various conditions.  Once I feel like I understand it better, I'll make a bigger pond and try to produce a product, either vegi oil or diesel, plus use dried or processed algae in any way I can.

                       

                       


                      --- On Wed, 7/2/08, Xi Gu Dai <bioremedy@...> wrote:

                      From: Xi Gu Dai <bioremedy@...>
                      Subject: Re: [oil_from_algae]For what it is worth
                      To: oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Wednesday, July 2, 2008, 3:39 PM

                      A bit of fodder from my 40 years of experience:

                       

                      As I explained in a previous posting, I am an environmental consultant/microbio logist.  I have worked in soil and water remediation for most of those 40 years.  One of my toughest jobs was trying to keep algae out of aquaculture environments.  I used every sort of product and suggestion that was available to me. Most usually, I won the battle. In doing so, I discovered and learned much about what makes the various algae species grow and go thru their cycles. 

                      I have also products and developed technologies to make algae bloom. 

                      One of you suggested the use of manure.  Because of its constituents, dairy cow manure is probably the best and most useful waste product available. (I am sure all of you have heard the oil companies casting blame upon the dairy industry and pointing their crude oil dripping fingers at the poor live stock industry as the CO2 culprit)

                      Also, if it was at all possible, try to build your PBR adjacent to a (sewage) water treatment facility.  There is an abundance of waste water that has been dechlorinated and full of nutrients, including CO2.  If your local municipality wants to contribute to a "greener" tomorrow, they should be happy to rent, lease and/or allow the construction of your PBR so Algae-fuel can be produced. 

                      Do any of you have any sort of facility up and running?  I would like to hear from you.

                      Thanks all,

                      Dale Hallcom

                      --- On Tue, 7/1/08, Bobby Yates Emory <liberty1@gmail. com> wrote:

                      From: Bobby Yates Emory <liberty1@gmail. com>
                      Subject: Re: [oil_from_algae] Re: I'm going to try!
                      To: oil_from_algae@ yahoogroups. com
                      Date: Tuesday, July 1, 2008, 6:55 PM

                      Anand and Ken,

                      I think what you are describing is sometimes called making compost tea.

                      Bobby

                      On 7/1/08, anand katoch <askatoch@yahoo. com> wrote:

                      ken,

                       

                      As you  being new to algae cultivation my personal advice will be to concentrate on growing and harvesting the algae. Making the process efficient will be a later stage effort.

                      Algae can happily grow with the amount of CO2 in air and that's the reason blooms happen. If it happens in nature you can force it to happen without infusing CO2.

                      The CO2 will surely help in increasing the yield but I am pretty sure you are not thinking of starting up a commercial production unit at this stage.

                      Diverting your strength in new technologies and procedure shall pull you away from algae growth and also financially, so if you do not have a digester or a digester generator it wont be necessary at this stage.

                      Choosing your culture is the most important thing depending upon your climate condition as the suppler shall surely mention the temperature range of the strain. The wider the range is the better for you as you can use it from spring to fall.

                      Compost is a good source to grow algae Caution---- you have to dissolve the compost in water and let it settle for a few hours and siphen the supernatant in the pond or raceway. if you dump the complete thing then there is a high chance for it do decompose in the bottom and create toxic gas and chemicals not good for your algae and secondly your algae will stick to it and settle at the bottom that you do not want.

                      Urine is an excellent source of nutrient and minerals and can compensate for all the rare minerals needed for the growth. Horse urine I prefer to go to maximum 1:12 and cow urine 1:15 caution----- the pH of your media has to be adjusted after addition depending upon your culture and do a dilution batch in flask before going to the main pond.

                       

                      How big setup are you planning and the culture for growth do let us know.

                      --- On Mon, 6/30/08, Bobby Yates Emory <liberty1@gmail. com> wrote:

                      From: Bobby Yates Emory <liberty1@gmail. com>
                      Subject: Re: [oil_from_algae] Re: I'm going to try!
                      To: oil_from_algae@ yahoogroups. com
                      Date: Monday, June 30, 2008, 11:06 PM

                      Ken,

                      Both viewpoints you have heard about algae are probably correct.  To get the kind of productiveness that we are looking for,  we will have to get everything right.  It will probably take a lot of testing to work that out.

                      Part of the reason for an AD is to generate CH4. (There will be CO2 mixed in.)  You can feed that to a generator, which will produce enough electricity to run your farm.   The exhaust from the generator can be feed to the algae for CO2.

                      If that is too much complexity, a paddlewheel will stir in enough CO2 to grow algae.

                      Nothing wrong with doing things your way.  Some scientific advancements were totally unexpected - your compost idea might work out.  But if it doesn't work well, don't give up on algae.  There are many was to grow algae that have been proven to work.

                      Bobby

                      On 6/30/08, Ken Buegeleisen <kbuegel@yahoo. com> wrote:

                      So dsved brings up a good point.  I've heard mixed information on the importance of CO2 as a resource for algae growth.  Some say it is crucial, others say that lack of CO2 is rarely the controlling factor and its more about pond chemistry, temperature, sunlight, contaminates, etc.  Perhaps this is dependent on the strains of algae that is growing, but it would be nice to get some clarity on this issue.  I don't want to bother with a methane digester and running an engine just to produce CO2.

                       

                      As for using manure to grow algae, I was actually expecting to have to compost the manure first before using it.  Currently I compost all our horse manure combined with wood chips and sawdust and it makes an excellent compost which I sell.  Its pretty much a hummus.   The NPK values are not very high, but the vegetables I'm growing on the compost seem to think its great.  I can always add chemical fertilizers as well.  But the point of adding the compost was that its a source of carbon, and everyone has seen how natural pond algae blooms when bio matter waste is added, so I figured that using compost might make a good carbon source for algae. 

                       

                      Frankly, I intend to try compost in algae ponds no matter what, just to prove or disprove the concept.  Perhaps I'll have to develop algae that likes that material.  We'll see.



                      --- On Mon, 6/30/08, dsved <vedrina@fkit. hr> wrote:

                      From: dsved <vedrina@fkit. hr>
                      Subject: [oil_from_algae] Re: I'm going to try!
                      To: oil_from_algae@ yahoogroups. com
                      Date: Monday, June 30, 2008, 1:36 AM

                      Hi,

                      You cant feed organic waste to the algae. You need to transform it
                      into fertilizers by means of anaerobic digestion, that is done by
                      using anaerobic bacteria. If you would place waste into your pond (or
                      some reactor section), it will infect your algae, and there are no
                      anaerobic conditions either. I'm suggesting that you build small
                      biogas facility (if you plan small production of SVO), in which you
                      will put organic waste and after a while you get CO2/methane mixture
                      and organic fertilizer.

                      C02/CH4 gas can be simply burned to get only CO2, or it can be used
                      for running a electricity generator, since the CH4 content is up to 75
                      %vol. Organic fertilizer that comes out of digester is liquid, but it
                      must be cleaned of the particles and sterilized.

                      Anaerobic digestion is technology for itself and the digester
                      (anaerobic bioreactor) is of course not cheap to build. Another
                      possibility is to build your algae facility close to some power plant.
                      But without CO2 source algae growing doesn't make much sense.




                      --
                      Toward freedom,

                      Bobby Yates Emory




                      --
                      Toward freedom,

                      Bobby Yates Emory

                    • Xi Gu Dai
                      Hedy, According to the Rodale Press, fresh Horse manure has a maximum N-P-K content of 1.63-1.54-0.85.  The quantity of available CO2 would vary, depending
                      Message 10 of 25 , Jul 2, 2008
                      • 0 Attachment


                        Hedy,

                        According to the Rodale Press, fresh Horse manure has a maximum N-P-K content of 1.63-1.54-0.85.  The quantity of available CO2 would vary, depending on the stage of decomposition.  Normally, CO2 is very small in our atmosphere, about 3 parts per 10,000 by volume.  If we can produce a greater volume, the growth of the algae would also increase.

                        Dale Hallcom (Dai Xi Gu)

                        --- On Mon, 6/30/08, Hedy Kling <hkling@...> wrote:

                        From: Hedy Kling <hkling@...>
                        Subject: RE: [oil_from_algae] Re: I'm going to try!
                        To: oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Monday, June 30, 2008, 3:12 PM

                        Hi Ken

                         

                        Run off from cow manure .. not composted grows algae.. usually a lot of cyanobacteria in dugouts on the prairies in Canada. Usually don’t have a problem with horses since they are much cleaner animals when ranging and do not mess where they drink and if there is a good rooted aquatic community you don’t get any blooms in the dugouts where the horses graze.. at least up here at the home farm.  I don’t know the C, N P contents of horse compost but it would be easy to get tested. Maybe worth doing and then you would know what to add as supplement. If you are cleaning stalls the urea will be there too but probably degrades quickly. I also have access to horse compost as well as a chemistry lab which has been analyzing pig manure .. or maybe somebody on the list knows  the nutrient ratios of horse compost.

                         

                        Most ponds with animals near by have a good growth of algae in them. Human sewage lagoons grow very nice crops of green algae. How much oil is present I don’t know since when I was monitor for algae at the time I was not thinking about oil.

                         

                        Probably worth a try to see what you get. Probably will be an interesting succession until it gets established

                         

                        Cheers

                        hedy

                         

                         

                        From: oil_from_algae@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:oil_ from_algae@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Ken Buegeleisen
                        Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 4:19 PM
                        To: oil_from_algae@ yahoogroups. com
                        Subject: Re: [oil_from_algae] Re: I'm going to try!

                         

                        So dsved brings up a good point.  I've heard mixed information on the importance of CO2 as a resource for algae growth.  Some say it is crucial, others say that lack of CO2 is rarely the controlling factor and its more about pond chemistry, temperature, sunlight, contaminates, etc.  Perhaps this is dependent on the strains of algae that is growing, but it would be nice to get some clarity on this issue.  I don't want to bother with a methane digester and running an engine just to produce CO2.

                         

                        As for using manure to grow algae, I was actually expecting to have to compost the manure first before using it.  Currently I compost all our horse manure combined with wood chips and sawdust and it makes an excellent compost which I sell.  Its pretty much a hummus.   The NPK values are not very high, but the vegetables I'm growing on the compost seem to think its great.  I can always add chemical fertilizers as well.  But the point of adding the compost was that its a source of carbon, and everyone has seen how natural pond algae blooms when bio matter waste is added, so I figured that using compost might make a good carbon source for algae. 

                         

                        Frankly, I intend to try compost in algae ponds no matter what, just to prove or disprove the concept.  Perhaps I'll have to develop algae that likes that material.  We'll see.



                        --- On Mon, 6/30/08, dsved <vedrina@fkit. hr> wrote:

                        From: dsved <vedrina@fkit. hr>
                        Subject: [oil_from_algae] Re: I'm going to try!
                        To: oil_from_algae@ yahoogroups. com
                        Date: Monday, June 30, 2008, 1:36 AM

                        Hi,

                        You cant feed organic waste to the algae. You need to transform it
                        into fertilizers by means of anaerobic digestion, that is done by
                        using anaerobic bacteria. If you would place waste into your pond (or
                        some reactor section), it will infect your algae, and there are no
                        anaerobic conditions either. I'm suggesting that you build small
                        biogas facility (if you plan small production of SVO), in which you
                        will put organic waste and after a while you get CO2/methane mixture
                        and organic fertilizer.

                        C02/CH4 gas can be simply burned to get only CO2, or it can be used
                        for running a electricity generator, since the CH4 content is up to 75
                        %vol. Organic fertilizer that comes out of digester is liquid, but it
                        must be cleaned of the particles and sterilized.

                        Anaerobic digestion is technology for itself and the digester
                        (anaerobic bioreactor) is of course not cheap to build. Another
                        possibility is to build your algae facility close to some power plant.
                        But without CO2 source algae growing doesn't make much sense.


                      • Bobby Yates Emory
                        Rob, I feel that we will not need greenhouses for the production system, but it may help to keep your development process more stable. There is an improved
                        Message 11 of 25 , Jul 2, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Rob,

                          I feel that we will not need greenhouses for the production system, but it may help to keep your development process more stable.

                          There is an improved type of greenhouse called Solaroof.  It works well - grows food in Canada in winter - and there is a proposal to add an algae growing component to it.

                          Bobby

                          On 7/2/08, Rob <PoppaRex@...> wrote:

                          Ken - Welcome!

                          I'll look forward to your experiences. We seem to have similar
                          goals, more self sufficiency than trying to save the world. Free
                          fuel for my tractor and maybe a way to heat my greenhouse and i'll
                          be happy.

                          Since i have yet to dip a toe into this, but the thoughts have been
                          running around my head for a few years i'll venture to take some
                          ignorant guesses at answering your questions and others can correct
                          me...

                          1.) CO2 is a benefit but i am not sure it is required in all but the
                          most intensive systems. I think the reason you hear so much about
                          pumping CO2 into a system is that the thrust seems to be towards
                          sequestering the CO2 and not so much at producing oil, though that
                          is changing.

                          A comment on your thought about "a pond with a low layer of bio
                          matter that will decompose"... Think Stink! Hopefully you have
                          enough acres where there won't be any neighbors to complain, but
                          this could be a major concern anywhere else.

                          2.) Low tech vs. high tech... a tough thing to determine. Myself,
                          i'm pretty low tech as that means less (reasonable) investment.
                          This is a hobby that hopefully will pay for itself. The thought is
                          if i can be successful at feeding my tractor, scaling up is not an
                          issue unless i am looking for investor money. I am more interested
                          in figuring out a system that works for a homeowner at several
                          levels that can be built by anyone for a reasonable amount of work.

                          3.) Biohazard from algae should be minimal unless you are using a
                          genetically modified strain. Depending on your composting scheme, i
                          imagine there could be a risk from bacteria.

                          4.) No comments on oil extraction methods. First i have to produce
                          some algae!

                          Just to fill everyone in, my system will be greenhouse based. I am
                          building (ever so slowly!) a greenhouse aquaponics facility. I
                          envision instead of, or in addition to, growing lettuce or basil, i
                          will be growing algae. In a typical aquaponic system, the animals
                          raised produce waste and CO2 which is broken down into fertilizer
                          componants that can be utilized by the plants (Algae). The algae
                          can be used for oil to fuel tractors and generators and the algae
                          cake for feeding the aquatic stock. I know... sounds much like a
                          perpetual motion machine that there has to be issues i am not
                          seeing. *grin*

                          Best of luck to you Ken!

                          Rob



                          --- In oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com, "kbuegel" <kbuegel@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hi folks, been reading this group for the past couple weeks and
                          I'm
                          > encouraged by the information. I'm willing to try to produce some
                          > diesel or at least SVO from algae.
                          >
                          > Here's my situation: I have a horse ranch and live in sunny
                          > California. Right now, during the summer, conditions are ideal
                          for
                          > growing algae (as long as we don't burn down in a grass fire!
                          lol).
                          > However, in the winter it will be different, but thats part of the
                          > challenge! I have a tractor that uses diesel, so that is my end-
                          > user so to speak. Plus I'm sure I can give away free fuel for
                          > people with diesel trucks to test, and I know one guy who has an
                          SVO
                          > conversion on his truck.
                          > So I have space, I have lots of bio material in the form of horse
                          > poop, hay, wood shavings, tree clippings, etc. I generally
                          compost
                          > most of the bio material, but I'm hoping to use some of it as
                          algae
                          > food.
                          >
                          > So let me ask a few questions if you don't mind:
                          > 1) I understand one of the growth limiters for algae is the
                          > abundance of available carbon sources in the water. Thus some
                          > people pump CO2 into water, etc. If I was to build a pond with a
                          > low layer of bio matter that will decompose, that decomposing bio
                          > matter should release a lot of methane and CO2 into the water, and
                          > also use up oxygen produced by the algae. As long as it stays
                          > anarobic, it seems like a good way to keep the algae fed with
                          > carbon, and the algae can be on the top layer of water to get sun.
                          > Has anyone tried something like this? Any comments on this?
                          >
                          > 2) Seems like most of the reason biofuels don't scale up is the
                          > prototype design involves a lot of processes that themselves take
                          > more energy than the biofuels produce. Am I correct? If so, I'm
                          > going to focus on low-intensity production processes. Perhaps use
                          > solar panels for electricity, if electricity is needed at all
                          > (probably would be for the final squeezing of oil). For washing
                          and
                          > water seperation and drying, seems like those could be done in low-
                          > intensity ways that just involve using time, gravity and the sun.
                          > Of course, it may take a lot of time, but I don't think time is as
                          > costly as electricity. Long production times can be overcome by
                          > increased capacity, or increased efficiency, both of which are
                          > likely if the overall process is successful.
                          >
                          > 3) Bio-hazard concerns. Does anyone know if growing cultured
                          algae
                          > represents a bio-hazard? If the cultured algae escaped into local
                          > creeks, would it devastate the environment? I would think this
                          > might require permits to do on private property. I may skip
                          permits
                          > in the beginning, but eventually would need them. So any help on
                          > permits and bio-hazard concerns would be appreciated.
                          >
                          > 4) I'd like to process on-site at least down to the SVO stage, and
                          > perhaps make diesel. I can also feed dried algae to our horses. I
                          > was planning on using physical processes to
                          squeeze/excreet/separate
                          > lipids from the algae material. I've seen small-scale processing
                          > units similar to grain crushers that seem to work for algae. Does
                          > anyone have experience with these types of processes? Is
                          physically
                          > seperating the lipids a better/worse method than using chemicals
                          or
                          > heat and catalysts?
                          >
                          > As I go along, I will share my experiences and photos with the
                          > group. And I'll be reading up for any new bits of info people
                          > share. I'm excited to get something started, and hopeful that I
                          > might be able to make a small contribution to this new field.
                          >
                          > Thanks in advance for everyone's help!!
                          >




                          --
                          Toward freedom,

                          Bobby Yates Emory
                        • Rob
                          Bobby... Rob = PoppaRex on Solaroof. Is what i m building. My greenhouse will probably use something akin to MIT s smokestack scrubber. ... system, but it ...
                          Message 12 of 25 , Jul 3, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Bobby... Rob = PoppaRex on Solaroof. Is what i'm building.

                            My greenhouse will probably use something akin to MIT's smokestack
                            scrubber.


                            --- In oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com, "Bobby Yates Emory"
                            <liberty1@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Rob,
                            >
                            > I feel that we will not need greenhouses for the production
                            system, but it
                            > may help to keep your development process more stable.
                            >
                            > There is an improved type of greenhouse called Solaroof. It works
                            well -
                            > grows food in Canada in winter - and there is a proposal to add an
                            algae
                            > growing component to it.
                            >
                            > Bobby
                            >
                            > On 7/2/08, Rob <PoppaRex@...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Ken - Welcome!
                            > >
                            > > I'll look forward to your experiences. We seem to have similar
                            > > goals, more self sufficiency than trying to save the world. Free
                            > > fuel for my tractor and maybe a way to heat my greenhouse and
                            i'll
                            > > be happy.
                            > >
                            > > Since i have yet to dip a toe into this, but the thoughts have
                            been
                            > > running around my head for a few years i'll venture to take some
                            > > ignorant guesses at answering your questions and others can
                            correct
                            > > me...
                            > >
                            > > 1.) CO2 is a benefit but i am not sure it is required in all but
                            the
                            > > most intensive systems. I think the reason you hear so much about
                            > > pumping CO2 into a system is that the thrust seems to be towards
                            > > sequestering the CO2 and not so much at producing oil, though
                            that
                            > > is changing.
                            > >
                            > > A comment on your thought about "a pond with a low layer of bio
                            > > matter that will decompose"... Think Stink! Hopefully you have
                            > > enough acres where there won't be any neighbors to complain, but
                            > > this could be a major concern anywhere else.
                            > >
                            > > 2.) Low tech vs. high tech... a tough thing to determine. Myself,
                            > > i'm pretty low tech as that means less (reasonable) investment.
                            > > This is a hobby that hopefully will pay for itself. The thought
                            is
                            > > if i can be successful at feeding my tractor, scaling up is not
                            an
                            > > issue unless i am looking for investor money. I am more
                            interested
                            > > in figuring out a system that works for a homeowner at several
                            > > levels that can be built by anyone for a reasonable amount of
                            work.
                            > >
                            > > 3.) Biohazard from algae should be minimal unless you are using a
                            > > genetically modified strain. Depending on your composting
                            scheme, i
                            > > imagine there could be a risk from bacteria.
                            > >
                            > > 4.) No comments on oil extraction methods. First i have to
                            produce
                            > > some algae!
                            > >
                            > > Just to fill everyone in, my system will be greenhouse based. I
                            am
                            > > building (ever so slowly!) a greenhouse aquaponics facility. I
                            > > envision instead of, or in addition to, growing lettuce or
                            basil, i
                            > > will be growing algae. In a typical aquaponic system, the animals
                            > > raised produce waste and CO2 which is broken down into fertilizer
                            > > componants that can be utilized by the plants (Algae). The algae
                            > > can be used for oil to fuel tractors and generators and the algae
                            > > cake for feeding the aquatic stock. I know... sounds much like a
                            > > perpetual motion machine that there has to be issues i am not
                            > > seeing. *grin*
                            > >
                            > > Best of luck to you Ken!
                            > >
                            > > Rob
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > --- In oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com <oil_from_algae%
                            40yahoogroups.com>,
                            > > "kbuegel" <kbuegel@> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > Hi folks, been reading this group for the past couple weeks and
                            > > I'm
                            > > > encouraged by the information. I'm willing to try to produce
                            some
                            > > > diesel or at least SVO from algae.
                            > > >
                            > > > Here's my situation: I have a horse ranch and live in sunny
                            > > > California. Right now, during the summer, conditions are ideal
                            > > for
                            > > > growing algae (as long as we don't burn down in a grass fire!
                            > > lol).
                            > > > However, in the winter it will be different, but thats part of
                            the
                            > > > challenge! I have a tractor that uses diesel, so that is my
                            end-
                            > > > user so to speak. Plus I'm sure I can give away free fuel for
                            > > > people with diesel trucks to test, and I know one guy who has
                            an
                            > > SVO
                            > > > conversion on his truck.
                            > > > So I have space, I have lots of bio material in the form of
                            horse
                            > > > poop, hay, wood shavings, tree clippings, etc. I generally
                            > > compost
                            > > > most of the bio material, but I'm hoping to use some of it as
                            > > algae
                            > > > food.
                            > > >
                            > > > So let me ask a few questions if you don't mind:
                            > > > 1) I understand one of the growth limiters for algae is the
                            > > > abundance of available carbon sources in the water. Thus some
                            > > > people pump CO2 into water, etc. If I was to build a pond with
                            a
                            > > > low layer of bio matter that will decompose, that decomposing
                            bio
                            > > > matter should release a lot of methane and CO2 into the water,
                            and
                            > > > also use up oxygen produced by the algae. As long as it stays
                            > > > anarobic, it seems like a good way to keep the algae fed with
                            > > > carbon, and the algae can be on the top layer of water to get
                            sun.
                            > > > Has anyone tried something like this? Any comments on this?
                            > > >
                            > > > 2) Seems like most of the reason biofuels don't scale up is the
                            > > > prototype design involves a lot of processes that themselves
                            take
                            > > > more energy than the biofuels produce. Am I correct? If so, I'm
                            > > > going to focus on low-intensity production processes. Perhaps
                            use
                            > > > solar panels for electricity, if electricity is needed at all
                            > > > (probably would be for the final squeezing of oil). For washing
                            > > and
                            > > > water seperation and drying, seems like those could be done in
                            low-
                            > > > intensity ways that just involve using time, gravity and the
                            sun.
                            > > > Of course, it may take a lot of time, but I don't think time
                            is as
                            > > > costly as electricity. Long production times can be overcome by
                            > > > increased capacity, or increased efficiency, both of which are
                            > > > likely if the overall process is successful.
                            > > >
                            > > > 3) Bio-hazard concerns. Does anyone know if growing cultured
                            > > algae
                            > > > represents a bio-hazard? If the cultured algae escaped into
                            local
                            > > > creeks, would it devastate the environment? I would think this
                            > > > might require permits to do on private property. I may skip
                            > > permits
                            > > > in the beginning, but eventually would need them. So any help
                            on
                            > > > permits and bio-hazard concerns would be appreciated.
                            > > >
                            > > > 4) I'd like to process on-site at least down to the SVO stage,
                            and
                            > > > perhaps make diesel. I can also feed dried algae to our
                            horses. I
                            > > > was planning on using physical processes to
                            > > squeeze/excreet/separate
                            > > > lipids from the algae material. I've seen small-scale
                            processing
                            > > > units similar to grain crushers that seem to work for algae.
                            Does
                            > > > anyone have experience with these types of processes? Is
                            > > physically
                            > > > seperating the lipids a better/worse method than using
                            chemicals
                            > > or
                            > > > heat and catalysts?
                            > > >
                            > > > As I go along, I will share my experiences and photos with the
                            > > > group. And I'll be reading up for any new bits of info people
                            > > > share. I'm excited to get something started, and hopeful that I
                            > > > might be able to make a small contribution to this new field.
                            > > >
                            > > > Thanks in advance for everyone's help!!
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --
                            > Toward freedom,
                            >
                            > Bobby Yates Emory
                            >
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