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Re: [oil_from_algae] Separating water from algae

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  • Seth Keel
    I personally have no experience with a french press. One idea might be to use a ultra fine mesh screen, like for collecting algae from water, but make a small,
    Message 1 of 21 , Mar 1 4:59 PM
      I personally have no experience with a french press.

      One idea might be to use a ultra fine mesh screen, like for collecting
      algae from water, but make a small, dime sized or smaller, hole in the
      bottom of a strong cannister and sandwich the screen with sheet metal
      and rubber sheet for strength. Maybe just screen at the end of a pipe
      would work fine. Use pressure, like a pump, to force the water/algae
      mixture through the screen. I have no idea what kind of force would
      be required to squeeze algae through a screen. A high pressure pump
      could get pricey and I don't know what fine mesh screen can handle.
      The smaller the hole the better. A problem might arise if the mixture
      had other particulate or contaminants that would clog the screen.

      The idea of using the combo of a small amount of algicide and a
      mechanical mixer(blender) sounds the easiest way to me. It sounds
      like NaOH might have a similiar effect to soften the membrane. NaOH
      would have the added benefit of being something that people have
      access to anyway for BD production, and it would raise the pH of the
      oil and aid in BD conversion, at least to an albeit possibley very
      small degree. From a generic recipe for lysis solution,
      http://sosnick.uchicago.edu/NaOH_SDS.html
      I calculated about 8g NaOH/L, but I don't know if that would be enough
      or even really work without using SDS or another detergent.

      All of this is just brainstorming without much substance, so take it
      for what it's worth. Some experimenting needs to be done.

      Seth



      On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 02:36:38 -0500, Bobby Yates Emory <liberty1@...> wrote:
      > Seth,
      >
      > Thanks for this information. I think we will be able to use a
      > variation of the French press. Just press it through a small hole.
      >
      > Have you ever seen the French press? Can you describe it?
      >
      > Bobby
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 17:45:32 -0600, Seth Keel <sakeel@...> wrote:
      > > There are many ways to lyse a cell membrane. Here is a pretty decent
      > > link with some general descriptions of techniques:
      > >
      > > http://tinyurl.com/6bnhq
      > >
      > (http://www4.amershambiosciences.com/aptrix/upp00919.nsf/Content/elpho_applications%5Celpho_applications_2d_protein_analysis%5Celpho_sample_preparation%5CElpho_2D_SamplePreparation_2_Methods%5C2.+Methods+of+cell+disruption+)
      > >
      > >
      > > Chemical lysing could be easy and energy efficient vs. mechanical, but
      > > you would need to be sure that it is not an emulsifier or too nasty of
      > > a chemical.
      > >
      > > Here is a method using NaOH, a biodieseler's best friend, but SDS is a
      > > detergent and so this probably would not work. There may be other
      > > similiar methods though.
      > >
      > > http://lsvl.la.asu.edu/resources/mamajis/alkaline/alkaline.html
      > >
      > >
      > > Here is a reference to a paper discussing lysing algae with fungi.
      > > This might be less practical on a small scale, but very eco-oriented
      > > and very sustainable.
      > >
      > > http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=242960
      > >
      > > This paper states that many algicides lyse the cell membrane
      > > releasing, in some cases, toxins. For us, it might help free up some
      > > oil instead. There is a list of products at the bottom.
      > >
      > > http://tinyurl.com/6k57d
      > >
      > (http://www.awqc.com.au/customer_service/factSheets/Using%20Algicides%20in%20Australia%20CRCWQT.PDF)
      > >
      > > Just a few thoughts. A good method for filtering would be needed, but
      > > this might help you get started on other ideas for breaking down the
      > > cells.
      > >
      > > Cheers,
      > >
      > > Seth
      > >
      > >
      > > On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 14:33:32 -0500, Bobby Yates Emory
      > > <liberty1@...> wrote:
      > > > Derek,
      > > >
      > > > I was thinking about the same problem. Two ideas so far:
      > > >
      > > > 1. Build a cylinder where we can put the algae under high pressure -
      > > > high enough to rupture the cell walls. Then we have the liquid
      > > > outside the cell.
      > > >
      > > > 2. Dump the algal mass in a blender. A few second on slow speed
      > > > should rupture most of the cell walls.
      > > >
      > > > After we have done either of the above, we should try letting part of
      > > > the sample sit for several days, to see if it will separate like
      > > > biodiesel does.
      > > >
      > > > Any other thoughts?
      > > >
      > > > Bobby
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 08:19:13 -0000, jdwoolverton
      > <jdwoolverton@...>
      > > > wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > Since what we're trying to make is oil, separating the water out is
      > > > > not really a big problem. Oil and water don't mix. In fact in
      > > > > bio-diesel processing, you end up with water in the tank at more
      > than
      > > > > one step, and just have to skim it off the top or drain it off the
      > > > bottom.
      > > > >
      > > > > The main problem with oil extraction is the small size of the algae.
      > > > > With seed presses, there are small holes along the sides of the
      > press
      > > > > that the oil comes out. The algae would probably fit through these
      > > > > holes just as well as the oil we're after. Some experimentation may
      > > > > be needed.
      > > > >
      > > > > Derek W
      > > > > Programmer, Welder, Mad Scientist
      > > > > http://dwoolstar.blogspot.com -- Technical difficulties on the
      > > mountain
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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      > > > > ADVERTISEMENT
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      > > > >
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      > > > >
      > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > > > > oil_from_algae-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > > > >
      > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > --
      > > > Toward freedom,
      > > >
      > > > Bobby Yates Emory
      > > >
      > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
      > > > ADVERTISEMENT
      > > >
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      > > >
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      > > > oil_from_algae-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > > >
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      > >
      > >
      > >
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      > >
      > > ADVERTISEMENT
      > >
      > >
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      > >
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      > > oil_from_algae-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > >
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      >
      >
      > --
      > Toward freedom,
      >
      > Bobby Yates Emory
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
      > ADVERTISEMENT
      >
      > ________________________________
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    • Faith Arnold
      Hi Seth, ... like NaOH might have a similiar effect to soften the membrane. Remember, you make soap by mixing oil/fat and lye in the presence of water. And I
      Message 2 of 21 , Mar 1 10:04 PM
        Hi Seth,
         
        >It sounds
        like NaOH might have a similiar effect to soften the membrane.
         
        Remember, you make soap by mixing oil/fat and lye in the presence of water. And I don't think the saponification process is going to help us!
         
        What about breaking down the cells with an acid? Don't they use sulfuric acid in paper-making? Could it then be run through a cream separator???
         
        Faith Arnold
         
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Seth Keel
        Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 4:59 PM
        Subject: Re: [oil_from_algae] Separating water from algae

        I personally have no experience with a french press.

        One idea might be to use a ultra fine mesh screen, like for collecting
        algae from water, but make a small, dime sized or smaller, hole in the
        bottom of a strong cannister and sandwich the screen with sheet metal
        and rubber sheet for strength.  Maybe just screen at the end of a pipe
        would work fine.  Use pressure, like a pump, to force the water/algae
        mixture through the screen.  I have no idea what kind of force would
        be required to squeeze algae through a screen.  A high pressure pump
        could get pricey and I don't know what fine mesh screen can handle.
        The smaller the hole the better.  A problem might arise if the mixture
        had other particulate or contaminants that would clog the screen.

        The idea of using the combo of a small amount of algicide and a
        mechanical mixer(blender) sounds the easiest way to me.  It sounds
        like NaOH might have a similiar effect to soften the membrane.  NaOH
        would have the added benefit of being something that people have
        access to anyway for BD production, and it would raise the pH of the
        oil and aid in BD conversion, at least to an albeit possibley very
        small degree.  From a generic recipe for lysis solution,
        http://sosnick.uchicago.edu/NaOH_SDS.html
        I calculated about 8g NaOH/L, but I don't know if that would be enough
        or even really work without using SDS or another detergent.

        All of this is just brainstorming without much substance, so take it
        for what it's worth.  Some experimenting needs to be done.

        Seth



        On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 02:36:38 -0500, Bobby Yates Emory <liberty1@...> wrote:
        > Seth,
        >
        > Thanks for this information.  I think we will be able to use a
        > variation of the French press.  Just press it through a small hole.
        >
        > Have you ever seen the French press? Can you describe it?
        >
        > Bobby
        >
        >
      • Bobby Yates Emory
        Faith, A good point - a cream separator may be just what we need. Does anyone have access to one? Other ideas to try are a sausage stuffer and a coffee
        Message 3 of 21 , Mar 1 10:08 PM
          Faith,

          A good point - a cream separator may be just what we need. Does
          anyone have access to one?

          Other ideas to try are a sausage stuffer and a coffee grinder. Does
          anyone have access to either?

          Bobby


          On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 22:04:29 -0800, Faith Arnold <lvfrts@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi Seth,
          >
          > >It sounds
          > like NaOH might have a similiar effect to soften the membrane.
          >
          > Remember, you make soap by mixing oil/fat and lye in the presence of water.
          > And I don't think the saponification process is going to help us!
          >
          > What about breaking down the cells with an acid? Don't they use sulfuric
          > acid in paper-making? Could it then be run through a cream separator???
          >
          > Faith Arnold
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: Seth Keel
          > To: oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 4:59 PM
          > Subject: Re: [oil_from_algae] Separating water from algae
          >
          > I personally have no experience with a french press.
          >
          > One idea might be to use a ultra fine mesh screen, like for collecting
          > algae from water, but make a small, dime sized or smaller, hole in the
          > bottom of a strong cannister and sandwich the screen with sheet metal
          > and rubber sheet for strength. Maybe just screen at the end of a pipe
          > would work fine. Use pressure, like a pump, to force the water/algae
          > mixture through the screen. I have no idea what kind of force would
          > be required to squeeze algae through a screen. A high pressure pump
          > could get pricey and I don't know what fine mesh screen can handle.
          > The smaller the hole the better. A problem might arise if the mixture
          > had other particulate or contaminants that would clog the screen.
          >
          > The idea of using the combo of a small amount of algicide and a
          > mechanical mixer(blender) sounds the easiest way to me. It sounds
          > like NaOH might have a similiar effect to soften the membrane. NaOH
          > would have the added benefit of being something that people have
          > access to anyway for BD production, and it would raise the pH of the
          > oil and aid in BD conversion, at least to an albeit possibley very
          > small degree. From a generic recipe for lysis solution,
          > http://sosnick.uchicago.edu/NaOH_SDS.html
          > I calculated about 8g NaOH/L, but I don't know if that would be enough
          > or even really work without using SDS or another detergent.
          >
          > All of this is just brainstorming without much substance, so take it
          > for what it's worth. Some experimenting needs to be done.
          >
          > Seth
          >
          >
          >
          > On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 02:36:38 -0500, Bobby Yates Emory <liberty1@...>
          > wrote:
          > > Seth,
          > >
          > > Thanks for this information. I think we will be able to use a
          > > variation of the French press. Just press it through a small hole.
          > >
          > > Have you ever seen the French press? Can you describe it?
          > >
          > > Bobby
          > >
          > >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
          >
          > ADVERTISEMENT
          >
          >
          >
          > ________________________________
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          > To visit your group on the web, go to:
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/oil_from_algae/
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > oil_from_algae-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


          --
          Toward freedom,

          Bobby Yates Emory
        • Seth Keel
          Faith, That s true, and you bring up a good point, but I don t know that 8g/L will cause the oil to saponify, will it? Soap making is usually done at a much
          Message 4 of 21 , Mar 2 6:18 PM
            Faith,

            That's true, and you bring up a good point, but I don't know that 8g/L
            will cause the oil to saponify, will it? Soap making is usually done
            at a much higher temperature and with 5 times as much NaOH. A generic
            soap recipe I use is 40g NaOH / 1L H20 / 2L oil. Of course, that
            makes for a LOT of saponification... I can't test it out right now
            either.

            Cream separators show up in garage sales here in Wisconsin. I was
            looking for one to try to clean up WVO, but realized that it probably
            wouldn't work because WVO is usually emulsified and too dirty. I was
            not able to find one when I was looking either. That's a good idea
            for this application. They show up on ebay for cheap occasionally.

            Seth


            On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 22:04:29 -0800, Faith Arnold <lvfrts@...> wrote:
            > Hi Seth,
            >
            > >It sounds
            > like NaOH might have a similiar effect to soften the membrane.
            >
            > Remember, you make soap by mixing oil/fat and lye in the presence of water.
            > And I don't think the saponification process is going to help us!
            >
            > What about breaking down the cells with an acid? Don't they use sulfuric
            > acid in paper-making? Could it then be run through a cream separator???
            >
            > Faith Arnold
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: Seth Keel
            > To: oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 4:59 PM
            > Subject: Re: [oil_from_algae] Separating water from algae
            >
            > I personally have no experience with a french press.
            >
            > One idea might be to use a ultra fine mesh screen, like for collecting
            > algae from water, but make a small, dime sized or smaller, hole in the
            > bottom of a strong cannister and sandwich the screen with sheet metal
            > and rubber sheet for strength. Maybe just screen at the end of a pipe
            > would work fine. Use pressure, like a pump, to force the water/algae
            > mixture through the screen. I have no idea what kind of force would
            > be required to squeeze algae through a screen. A high pressure pump
            > could get pricey and I don't know what fine mesh screen can handle.
            > The smaller the hole the better. A problem might arise if the mixture
            > had other particulate or contaminants that would clog the screen.
            >
            > The idea of using the combo of a small amount of algicide and a
            > mechanical mixer(blender) sounds the easiest way to me. It sounds
            > like NaOH might have a similiar effect to soften the membrane. NaOH
            > would have the added benefit of being something that people have
            > access to anyway for BD production, and it would raise the pH of the
            > oil and aid in BD conversion, at least to an albeit possibley very
            > small degree. From a generic recipe for lysis solution,
            > http://sosnick.uchicago.edu/NaOH_SDS.html
            > I calculated about 8g NaOH/L, but I don't know if that would be enough
            > or even really work without using SDS or another detergent.
            >
            > All of this is just brainstorming without much substance, so take it
            > for what it's worth. Some experimenting needs to be done.
            >
            > Seth
            >
            >
            >
            > On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 02:36:38 -0500, Bobby Yates Emory <liberty1@...>
            > wrote:
            > > Seth,
            > >
            > > Thanks for this information. I think we will be able to use a
            > > variation of the French press. Just press it through a small hole.
            > >
            > > Have you ever seen the French press? Can you describe it?
            > >
            > > Bobby
            > >
            > >
            > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
            > ADVERTISEMENT
            >
            > ________________________________
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > To visit your group on the web, go to:
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/oil_from_algae/
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > oil_from_algae-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
          • Faith Arnold
            Hi Bobby, If you mean an old fashioned style coffee mill, they are just a type of grist mill/grain mill. As far as I know, the steel burrs were never
            Message 5 of 21 , Mar 3 12:29 PM
              Hi Bobby,
               
              If you mean an "old fashioned" style coffee mill, they are just a type of grist mill/grain mill. As far as I know, the steel burrs were never stainless steel, and therefore would need to be disassembled and dried carefully after each use or they would rust like crazy. If any are made of stainless, they would be awfully expensive. Also, I think if you had them adjusted so tightly that you could get any kind of cracking action on the algae's cell walls, they would wear excessively and/or be hard to turn. about the sausage stuffer... I assume you are talking about the kind that presses by using a screw to tighten and press down on the material. They don't hold very much... I bet you could rig up something using a rigid frame, or even a couple of stationary objects, and positioning an automotive-type hydraulic car jack... pump it up to squeeze against flat metal plates holding slabs of drained algae in fine canvas (or?) packages sandwiched between them.
               
              This would just be for testing/experimentation purposes... if we can't separate it by centrifugal force using something like a cream separator, ultimately we would have to get a screw-type expeller oil extractor to have any hope of being efficient enough.
               
              Faith
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 10:08 PM
              Subject: Re: [oil_from_algae] Separating water from algae

              Faith,

              A good point - a cream separator may be just what we need.  Does
              anyone have access to one?

              Other ideas to try are a sausage stuffer and a coffee grinder.  Does
              anyone have access to either?

              Bobby


              On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 22:04:29 -0800, Faith Arnold <lvfrts@...> wrote:

              > Hi Seth,
              >  
              > >It sounds
              > like NaOH might have a similiar effect to soften the membrane.
              >  
              > Remember, you make soap by mixing oil/fat and lye in the presence of water.
              > And I don't think the saponification process is going to help us!
              >  
              > What about breaking down the cells with an acid? Don't they use sulfuric
              > acid in paper-making? Could it then be run through a cream separator???
              >  
              > Faith Arnold

              >  
              >  

              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Seth Keel
              > To: oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 4:59 PM
              > Subject: Re: [oil_from_algae] Separating water from algae
              >
              > I personally have no experience with a french press.
              >
              > One idea might be to use a ultra fine mesh screen, like for collecting
              > algae from water, but make a small, dime sized or smaller, hole in the
              > bottom of a strong cannister and sandwich the screen with sheet metal
              > and rubber sheet for strength.  Maybe just screen at the end of a pipe
              > would work fine.  Use pressure, like a pump, to force the water/algae
              > mixture through the screen.  I have no idea what kind of force would
              > be required to squeeze algae through a screen.  A high pressure pump
              > could get pricey and I don't know what fine mesh screen can handle.
              > The smaller the hole the better.  A problem might arise if the mixture
              > had other particulate or contaminants that would clog the screen.
              >
              > The idea of using the combo of a small amount of algicide and a
              > mechanical mixer(blender) sounds the easiest way to me.  It sounds
              > like NaOH might have a similiar effect to soften the membrane.  NaOH
              > would have the added benefit of being something that people have
              > access to anyway for BD production, and it would raise the pH of the
              > oil and aid in BD conversion, at least to an albeit possibley very
              > small degree.  From a generic recipe for lysis solution,
              > http://sosnick.uchicago.edu/NaOH_SDS.html
              > I calculated about 8g NaOH/L, but I don't know if that would be enough
              > or even really work without using SDS or another detergent.
              >
              > All of this is just brainstorming without much substance, so take it
              > for what it's worth.  Some experimenting needs to be done.
              >
              > Seth
              >
              >
              >
              > On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 02:36:38 -0500, Bobby Yates Emory <liberty1@...>
              > wrote:
              > > Seth,
              > >
              > > Thanks for this information.  I think we will be able to use a
              > > variation of the French press.  Just press it through a small hole.
              > >
              > > Have you ever seen the French press? Can you describe it?
              > >
              > > Bobby
              > >
              > >

              >  Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

              >  ADVERTISEMENT



              >  ________________________________
              >  Yahoo! Groups Links

              > To visit your group on the web, go to:
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/oil_from_algae/
              >  
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              >  
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


              --
              Toward freedom,

              Bobby Yates Emory

            • liederdavid
              I think I would start by trying to use a juce extractor from the health foof store. If they can turn carrots into juce they should be able to turn algae into
              Message 6 of 21 , Mar 3 2:30 PM
                I think I would start by trying to use a juce extractor from the
                health foof store. If they can turn carrots into juce they should be
                able to turn algae into juce.
              • Bobby Yates Emory
                Faith, I have a generic Porta - Power (a very flexible hydraulic tool used to straighten wrecked auto bodies). I could use it like you suggested (and I will).
                Message 7 of 21 , Mar 3 3:10 PM
                  Faith,

                  I have a generic Porta - Power (a very flexible hydraulic tool used to
                  straighten wrecked auto bodies). I could use it like you suggested
                  (and I will). But most people don't have a Porta - Power lying about.
                  I was trying to come up with something easier / less expensive to
                  find.

                  At this point, for backyard experimenters extracting oil for up to 5
                  gallons of algae, my best guess is a thrift shop blender and let the
                  result sit for 24 hours.

                  For scientists trying to produce accurate test results, chemical extraction.

                  Bobby


                  On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 12:29:12 -0800, Faith Arnold <lvfrts@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi Bobby,
                  >
                  > If you mean an "old fashioned" style coffee mill, they are just a type of
                  > grist mill/grain mill. As far as I know, the steel burrs were never
                  > stainless steel, and therefore would need to be disassembled and dried
                  > carefully after each use or they would rust like crazy. If any are made of
                  > stainless, they would be awfully expensive. Also, I think if you had them
                  > adjusted so tightly that you could get any kind of cracking action on the
                  > algae's cell walls, they would wear excessively and/or be hard to turn.
                  > about the sausage stuffer... I assume you are talking about the kind that
                  > presses by using a screw to tighten and press down on the material. They
                  > don't hold very much... I bet you could rig up something using a rigid
                  > frame, or even a couple of stationary objects, and positioning an
                  > automotive-type hydraulic car jack... pump it up to squeeze against flat
                  > metal plates holding slabs of drained algae in fine canvas (or?) packages
                  > sandwiched between them.
                  >
                  > This would just be for testing/experimentation purposes... if we can't
                  > separate it by centrifugal force using something like a cream separator,
                  > ultimately we would have to get a screw-type expeller oil extractor to have
                  > any hope of being efficient enough.
                  >
                  > Faith
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  >
                  > From: Bobby Yates Emory
                  > To: oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  > Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 10:08 PM
                  > Subject: Re: [oil_from_algae] Separating water from algae
                  >
                  > Faith,
                  >
                  > A good point - a cream separator may be just what we need. Does
                  > anyone have access to one?
                  >
                  > Other ideas to try are a sausage stuffer and a coffee grinder. Does
                  > anyone have access to either?
                  >
                  > Bobby
                  >
                  >
                  > On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 22:04:29 -0800, Faith Arnold <lvfrts@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hi Seth,
                  > >
                  > > >It sounds
                  > > like NaOH might have a similiar effect to soften the membrane.
                  > >
                  > > Remember, you make soap by mixing oil/fat and lye in the presence of
                  > water.
                  > > And I don't think the saponification process is going to help us!
                  > >
                  > > What about breaking down the cells with an acid? Don't they use sulfuric
                  > > acid in paper-making? Could it then be run through a cream separator???
                  > >
                  > > Faith Arnold
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > From: Seth Keel
                  > > To: oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 4:59 PM
                  > > Subject: Re: [oil_from_algae] Separating water from algae
                  > >
                  > > I personally have no experience with a french press.
                  > >
                  > > One idea might be to use a ultra fine mesh screen, like for collecting
                  > > algae from water, but make a small, dime sized or smaller, hole in the
                  > > bottom of a strong cannister and sandwich the screen with sheet metal
                  > > and rubber sheet for strength. Maybe just screen at the end of a pipe
                  > > would work fine. Use pressure, like a pump, to force the water/algae
                  > > mixture through the screen. I have no idea what kind of force would
                  > > be required to squeeze algae through a screen. A high pressure pump
                  > > could get pricey and I don't know what fine mesh screen can handle.
                  > > The smaller the hole the better. A problem might arise if the mixture
                  > > had other particulate or contaminants that would clog the screen.
                  > >
                  > > The idea of using the combo of a small amount of algicide and a
                  > > mechanical mixer(blender) sounds the easiest way to me. It sounds
                  > > like NaOH might have a similiar effect to soften the membrane. NaOH
                  > > would have the added benefit of being something that people have
                  > > access to anyway for BD production, and it would raise the pH of the
                  > > oil and aid in BD conversion, at least to an albeit possibley very
                  > > small degree. From a generic recipe for lysis solution,
                  > > http://sosnick.uchicago.edu/NaOH_SDS.html
                  > > I calculated about 8g NaOH/L, but I don't know if that would be enough
                  > > or even really work without using SDS or another detergent.
                  > >
                  > > All of this is just brainstorming without much substance, so take it
                  > > for what it's worth. Some experimenting needs to be done.
                  > >
                  > > Seth
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 02:36:38 -0500, Bobby Yates Emory <liberty1@...>
                  > > wrote:
                  > > > Seth,
                  > > >
                  > > > Thanks for this information. I think we will be able to use a
                  > > > variation of the French press. Just press it through a small hole.
                  > > >
                  > > > Have you ever seen the French press? Can you describe it?
                  > > >
                  > > > Bobby
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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                  > >
                  > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > > oil_from_algae-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > >
                  > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                  >
                  >
                  > --
                  > Toward freedom,
                  >
                  > Bobby Yates Emory
                  >
                  >
                  >
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                  >
                  >
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                  --
                  Toward freedom,

                  Bobby Yates Emory
                • Bobby Yates Emory
                  David, Good thought. I found some on eBay from $5 up. Think I ll skip the health food store- they re usually expensive. Bobby ... -- Toward freedom, Bobby
                  Message 8 of 21 , Mar 3 7:15 PM
                    David,

                    Good thought. I found some on eBay from $5 up. Think I'll skip the
                    health food store- they're usually expensive.

                    Bobby


                    On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 22:30:46 -0000, liederdavid <dlieder@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I think I would start by trying to use a juce extractor from the
                    > health foof store. If they can turn carrots into juce they should be
                    > able to turn algae into juce.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
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                    >
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                    Bobby Yates Emory
                  • Faith Arnold
                    Hi Bobby, ... gallons of algae, my best guess is a thrift shop blender and let the result sit for 24 hours. That is a good idea! It will take a little
                    Message 9 of 21 , Mar 4 11:22 PM
                      Hi Bobby,
                       
                      >At this point, for backyard experimenters extracting oil for up to 5
                      gallons of algae,  my best guess is a thrift shop blender and let the
                      result sit for 24 hours.


                      That is a good idea! It will take a little experimenting to get the thickness of the algae slurry/paste correct... if it is too thick, it will overheat- and prematurely burn out the blender motor, and if it is too watery, the liquid will just swirl around and around in the blender jar, and not present enough resistance to the blades to get chopped up (to release the oil).
                       
                      Has anybody figured out yet where we can get a high oil-yielding variety of algae? I think for actual production, we would have to grow the algae plants in a rich culture liquid, to promote fast growth, then we will have to strain the algae out of its nutrient-rich soup and transfer it to a zero-nutrient finishing tank with excellent sunlight for it to accumulate the oil droplets in its cells. Otherwise, the algae will just keep using the nutrients to do more cell division. From the reading I did, I gather that it only stores useful amounts of oil when it is taking in sufficient light energy to photosynthesize glucose-to-starch-to-oil, and when it doesn't have any nitrogen and other nutrients it needs to build protein, for making more cells. (Or it will just keep on dividing, ad infinitum.)
                       
                      What kind of oil are we aiming at for fuel? Actually, I would love to start with a variety that grows very high percentages of EPA and DHA Omega three oils, for dietary supplementation. That stuff is expensive!
                       
                      Faith
                    • Bobby Yates Emory
                      Faith, Some good thoughts and questions. Comments with +++++++++++++ ... +++++++++ A good issue. I am assuming a butter fly net with a much fine mesh filter
                      Message 10 of 21 , Mar 5 12:20 AM
                        Faith,

                        Some good thoughts and questions. Comments with +++++++++++++


                        On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 23:22:01 -0800, Faith Arnold <lvfrts@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hi Bobby,
                        >
                        > >At this point, for backyard experimenters extracting oil for up to 5
                        > gallons of algae, my best guess is a thrift shop blender and let the
                        > result sit for 24 hours.
                        >
                        > That is a good idea! It will take a little experimenting to get the
                        > thickness of the algae slurry/paste correct... if it is too thick, it will
                        > overheat- and prematurely burn out the blender motor, and if it is too
                        > watery, the liquid will just swirl around and around in the blender jar, and
                        > not present enough resistance to the blades to get chopped up (to release
                        > the oil).

                        +++++++++
                        A good issue. I am assuming a butter fly net with a much fine mesh
                        filter on the netting to skim the algae from the pond, so the algal
                        mat will have some water, but it might not be enough. You raise good
                        points - the people processing the first batch will have to be
                        careful.

                        >
                        > Has anybody figured out yet where we can get a high oil-yielding variety of
                        > algae?

                        +++++++++++++++++
                        Yes, CCMP647 has already been tested and proven to grow 30 to 50 %
                        oil. It is readily available (for $45). I plan to get some, culture
                        it, and provide it to those who want to experiment.

                        I think for actual production, we would have to grow the algae plants
                        > in a rich culture liquid, to promote fast growth, then we will have to
                        > strain the algae out of its nutrient-rich soup and transfer it to a
                        > zero-nutrient finishing tank with excellent sunlight for it to accumulate
                        > the oil droplets in its cells. Otherwise, the algae will just keep using the
                        > nutrients to do more cell division. From the reading I did, I gather that it
                        > only stores useful amounts of oil when it is taking in sufficient light
                        > energy to photosynthesize glucose-to-starch-to-oil, and when it doesn't have
                        > any nitrogen and other nutrients it needs to build protein, for making more
                        > cells. (Or it will just keep on dividing, ad infinitum.)

                        +++++++++++++
                        That makes sense to me. I suggest we test having a nutrient deficient
                        finishing pond. But the Aquatic Species project found that the
                        finishing pond would lead to a higher percentage of oil, but not a
                        larger quantity of oil. I believe this was a laboratory result, not
                        at the field trials they ran. So we will need to test this point.
                        With CCMP647 producing 30 to 50% oil without a finishing pond, this is
                        not a big issue.

                        >
                        > What kind of oil are we aiming at for fuel? Actually, I would love to start
                        > with a variety that grows very high percentages of EPA and DHA Omega three
                        > oils, for dietary supplementation. That stuff is expensive!

                        ++++++++++++++
                        You can be our Guinea pig. :-) Seriously, do not take our oil.
                        There has been no mention of human consumption. It will probably
                        turn out to be OK, but treat as unpalatable until we learn more.

                        There are probably published constituent analysis. I will be on the
                        lookout for them.

                        The oil that is used for human consumption comes from Spirulina.
                        There are several plants going on line with production processes for
                        this, such as Martek on South Carolina. I believe it goes through
                        several purifications processes. There are backyard processes for
                        growing Spirulina. It only produces 4 to 7 % oil. It requires a very
                        high PH (ours requires seawater - so our processes will be different)

                        Bobby

                        >
                        > Faith
                        >
                        >
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                        Bobby Yates Emory
                      • Faith Arnold
                        Hi Bobby, ... So would the algae you are looking at be anything like the cold northern ocean algaes produce oil that puts EPA and DHA into the cold water
                        Message 11 of 21 , Mar 5 1:15 AM
                          Hi Bobby,
                           
                          >There are backyard processes for
                          >growing Spirulina.  It only produces 4 to 7 % oil.  It requires a very
                          >high PH (ours requires seawater - so our processes will be different)

                          So would the algae you are looking at be anything like the cold northern ocean algaes produce oil that puts EPA and DHA into the cold water fish's food chain that they harvest for high EPA and DHA fish oils? Or is the CCMP647 strain a faster-growing, more tropical species?
                           
                          Faith 
                           
                        • Susan Hogarth
                          ... We used to use a small handheld steel thing we called a french press to pulverize either frozen fungal tissue in one of the labs where I was a student. I
                          Message 12 of 21 , Mar 5 5:04 AM
                            On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 02:36:38 -0500, Bobby Yates Emory <liberty1@...> wrote:
                            > Seth,
                            >
                            > Thanks for this information. I think we will be able to use a
                            > variation of the French press. Just press it through a small hole.
                            >
                            > Have you ever seen the French press? Can you describe it?

                            We used to use a small handheld steel thing we called a french press
                            to pulverize either frozen fungal tissue in one of the labs where I
                            was a student. I remember Bill made some replacement ones for the lab
                            - they were really just steel mortar-and-pestle sets, with a cylinder
                            that just fit into the press chamber, and so sheared the cell walls. I
                            can't find it anywhere (it was probably a custom piece), but something
                            like this homogenizer might be good for trial runs:

                            http://www.gpelimited.co.uk/lab_glass/homogenisers/general.html

                            A google image search for 'french press' yields and interesting mix of
                            bodybuilders, coffee apparatus, and an sprinling of technical pieces.
                            Oh, and some newspaper references :)

                            Here is a bigger version:

                            http://www.egr.msu.edu/pel/pictures/French_press.jpg

                            and another:

                            http://history.nih.gov/exhibits/nirenberg/images/photos/instruments/06_fpress_pu.jpg

                            here's a catalog page for one:

                            http://www.thermo.com/com/cda/product/detail/0,1055,23695,00.html

                            --
                            Susan Hogarth
                            919-906-2106 : hogarth@...
                            IM (AIM): susanhogarth
                            "For it is very clear that in fundamental theory socialism and
                            democracy are almost if not quite the one and the same. They both rest
                            at bottom on the absolute right of the community to determine its own
                            destiny and that of its members." - W. Wilson
                          • Bobby Yates Emory
                            Faith, They are both marine (ie,saltwater), but CCMP647 is fast growing - doubles in 2 days. It was collected in the Salton Sea and has been found as far
                            Message 13 of 21 , Mar 5 6:00 AM
                              Faith,

                              They are both marine (ie,saltwater), but CCMP647 is fast growing -
                              doubles in 2 days. It was collected in the Salton Sea and has been
                              found as far north as Maryland, but is probably not the one for DHA.
                              I'll be looking for an analysis.

                              Bobby


                              On Sat, 5 Mar 2005 01:15:54 -0800, Faith Arnold <lvfrts@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Hi Bobby,
                              >
                              > >There are backyard processes for
                              > >growing Spirulina. It only produces 4 to 7 % oil. It requires a very
                              > >high PH (ours requires seawater - so our processes will be different)
                              >
                              > So would the algae you are looking at be anything like the cold northern
                              > ocean algaes produce oil that puts EPA and DHA into the cold water fish's
                              > food chain that they harvest for high EPA and DHA fish oils? Or is the
                              > CCMP647 strain a faster-growing, more tropical species?
                              >
                              >
                              > Faith
                              >
                              >
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                              >
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                              >
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                              >
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                              > oil_from_algae-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                              --
                              Toward freedom,

                              Bobby Yates Emory
                            • Bobby Yates Emory
                              Susan, Thanks for the info and digging up the web references. Sounds like, if Bill can make a piston and cylinder set, we could use my Porta - Power to push
                              Message 14 of 21 , Mar 5 6:07 AM
                                Susan,

                                Thanks for the info and digging up the web references. Sounds like,
                                if Bill can make a piston and cylinder set, we could use my Porta -
                                Power to push it. I don't think it gets up to 40,000 psi, so we'll
                                have to keep the piston smaller than three inches.


                                Bobby


                                On Sat, 5 Mar 2005 08:04:25 -0500, Susan Hogarth <hogarth@...> wrote:
                                > On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 02:36:38 -0500, Bobby Yates Emory <liberty1@...>
                                > wrote:
                                > > Seth,
                                > >
                                > > Thanks for this information. I think we will be able to use a
                                > > variation of the French press. Just press it through a small hole.
                                > >
                                > > Have you ever seen the French press? Can you describe it?
                                >
                                > We used to use a small handheld steel thing we called a french press
                                > to pulverize either frozen fungal tissue in one of the labs where I
                                > was a student. I remember Bill made some replacement ones for the lab
                                > - they were really just steel mortar-and-pestle sets, with a cylinder
                                > that just fit into the press chamber, and so sheared the cell walls. I
                                > can't find it anywhere (it was probably a custom piece), but something
                                > like this homogenizer might be good for trial runs:
                                >
                                > http://www.gpelimited.co.uk/lab_glass/homogenisers/general.html
                                >
                                > A google image search for 'french press' yields and interesting mix of
                                > bodybuilders, coffee apparatus, and an sprinling of technical pieces.
                                > Oh, and some newspaper references :)
                                >
                                > Here is a bigger version:
                                >
                                > http://www.egr.msu.edu/pel/pictures/French_press.jpg
                                >
                                > and another:
                                >
                                > http://history.nih.gov/exhibits/nirenberg/images/photos/instruments/06_fpress_pu.jpg
                                >
                                > here's a catalog page for one:
                                >
                                > http://www.thermo.com/com/cda/product/detail/0,1055,23695,00.html
                                >
                                > --
                                > Susan Hogarth
                                > 919-906-2106 : hogarth@...
                                > IM (AIM): susanhogarth
                                > "For it is very clear that in fundamental theory socialism and
                                > democracy are almost if not quite the one and the same. They both rest
                                > at bottom on the absolute right of the community to determine its own
                                > destiny and that of its members." - W. Wilson
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                >
                                > ADVERTISEMENT
                                >
                                >
                                > ________________________________
                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                >
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                                >
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                                --
                                Toward freedom,

                                Bobby Yates Emory
                              • Magyar73
                                How about putting it in a pillow case and running it through an old fashioned ringer? Would that be enough pressure? Chris ... From: Bobby Yates Emory To:
                                Message 15 of 21 , Mar 6 8:23 AM
                                  How about putting it in a pillow case and running it through an old fashioned ringer?  Would that be enough pressure?
                                   
                                  Chris
                                   
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 6:10 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [oil_from_algae] Separating water from algae


                                  Faith,

                                  I have a generic Porta - Power (a very flexible hydraulic tool used to
                                  straighten wrecked auto bodies).  I could use it like you suggested
                                  (and I will).  But most people don't have a Porta - Power lying about.
                                   I was trying to come up with something easier / less expensive to
                                  find.

                                  At this point, for backyard experimenters extracting oil for up to 5
                                  gallons of algae,  my best guess is a thrift shop blender and let the
                                  result sit for 24 hours.

                                  For scientists trying to produce accurate test results, chemical extraction.

                                  Bobby

                                  <snip>
                                • Bobby Yates Emory
                                  Chris, We don t know yet how much pressure is needed to rupture the cell walls. We need to start with the things that are easy to do. Do you have access to
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Mar 6 11:44 AM
                                    Chris,

                                    We don't know yet how much pressure is needed to rupture the cell
                                    walls. We need to start with the things that are easy to do. Do you
                                    have access to a wringer washer?

                                    For most of us, getting access to a wringer washer will be difficult.
                                    But we are hoping to devise a process that just above poor people in
                                    India and China will be able to use. They will have access to wringer
                                    washers.

                                    There are also separate wringers. A quick peek at A9 (like Google) found these:

                                    This is an antique version:

                                    http://a9.com/-/search/imageResult?q=wringer&t=slide-%3Cb%3Ewringer%3C/b%3E.jpg&ru=http%253A%252F%252Fwww.hagley.lib.de.us%252Fslide-wringer.html&u=http://www.hagley.lib.de.us/slide-wringer.jpg&ih=499&iw=600&th=110&tw=132&id=Rc5fKjy-DtAJ

                                    This is a more modern version:

                                    http://a9.com/-/search/imageResult?q=wringer&t=%3Cb%3Ewringer%3C/b%3E.jpg&ru=http%253A%252F%252Fwww.subgenius.com%252Fbigfist%252Fpics6%252Fmistersister%252FmistersisterTN%252F_wringer.html&u=http://www.subgenius.com/bigfist/pics6/mistersister/wringer.jpg&ih=460&iw=665&th=94&tw=136&id=RFlpHw9vevkJ

                                    This version is inexpensive, but I doubt it would develop enough
                                    pressure to rupture the cell walls

                                    http://www.wellspent.org/Product?p=31861

                                    These people sell them from $100 to $400:

                                    http://www.survivalunlimited.com/clothewringer.htm

                                    Does anyone have access to a variation of these?

                                    The material in a pillow case may not be strong enough. In a similar
                                    application, someone was using denim. Cut off a pants leg. Sew up
                                    the cuff. Lay leg on table. Put a one inch layer of algae inside
                                    leg. Put the open end in the wringer. Crank away. Probably the
                                    denim will soak up a lot of oil, but after two or three batches, it
                                    will be saturated and the oil will start flowing.

                                    Good idea.

                                    Bobby


                                    On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 11:23:55 -0500, Magyar73 <Magyar73@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > How about putting it in a pillow case and running it through an old
                                    > fashioned ringer? Would that be enough pressure?
                                    >
                                    > Chris
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > From: Bobby Yates Emory
                                    > To: oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 6:10 PM
                                    > Subject: Re: [oil_from_algae] Separating water from algae
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Faith,
                                    >
                                    > I have a generic Porta - Power (a very flexible hydraulic tool used to
                                    > straighten wrecked auto bodies). I could use it like you suggested
                                    > (and I will). But most people don't have a Porta - Power lying about.
                                    > I was trying to come up with something easier / less expensive to
                                    > find.
                                    >
                                    > At this point, for backyard experimenters extracting oil for up to 5
                                    > gallons of algae, my best guess is a thrift shop blender and let the
                                    > result sit for 24 hours.
                                    >
                                    > For scientists trying to produce accurate test results, chemical extraction.
                                    >
                                    > Bobby
                                    >
                                    > <snip>
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                    >
                                    > ADVERTISEMENT
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ________________________________
                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/oil_from_algae/
                                    >
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                                    > oil_from_algae-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                    >
                                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


                                    --
                                    Toward freedom,

                                    Bobby Yates Emory
                                  • Magyar73
                                    Bobby, No I don t have access to one. I m just trying to come up with ideas. Silly me should have taken it when I saw it years ago. Chris Sent: Sunday, March
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Mar 6 12:03 PM
                                      Bobby,
                                       
                                      No I don't have access to one.  I'm just trying to come up with ideas.  Silly me should have taken it when I saw it years ago.
                                       
                                      Chris
                                       
                                       
                                       
                                      Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2005 2:44 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [oil_from_algae] Separating water from algae


                                      Chris,

                                      We don't know yet how much pressure is needed to rupture the cell
                                      walls.   We need to start with the things that are easy to do.  Do you
                                      have access to a wringer washer?

                                      For most of us, getting access to a wringer washer will be difficult.
                                      But we are hoping to devise a process that just above poor people in
                                      India and China will be able to use.  They will have access to wringer
                                      washers.

                                      There are also separate wringers.  A quick peek at A9 (like Google) found these:

                                      This is an antique version:

                                      http://a9.com/-/search/imageResult?q=wringer&t=slide-%3Cb%3Ewringer%3C/b%3E.jpg&ru=http%253A%252F%252Fwww.hagley.lib.de.us%252Fslide-wringer.html&u=http://www.hagley.lib.de.us/slide-wringer.jpg&ih=499&iw=600&th=110&tw=132&id=Rc5fKjy-DtAJ

                                      This is a more modern version:

                                      http://a9.com/-/search/imageResult?q=wringer&t=%3Cb%3Ewringer%3C/b%3E.jpg&ru=http%253A%252F%252Fwww.subgenius.com%252Fbigfist%252Fpics6%252Fmistersister%252FmistersisterTN%252F_wringer.html&u=http://www.subgenius.com/bigfist/pics6/mistersister/wringer.jpg&ih=460&iw=665&th=94&tw=136&id=RFlpHw9vevkJ

                                      This version is inexpensive, but I doubt it would develop enough
                                      pressure to rupture the cell walls

                                      http://www.wellspent.org/Product?p=31861

                                      These people sell them from $100 to $400:

                                      http://www.survivalunlimited.com/clothewringer.htm

                                      Does anyone have access to a variation of these?

                                      The material in a pillow case may not be strong enough.  In a similar
                                      application, someone was using denim.   Cut off a pants leg.  Sew up
                                      the cuff.  Lay leg on table.  Put a one inch layer of algae inside
                                      leg.  Put the open end in the wringer.  Crank away.  Probably the
                                      denim will soak up a lot of oil, but after two or three batches, it
                                      will be saturated and the oil will start flowing.

                                      Good idea.

                                      Bobby


                                      On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 11:23:55 -0500, Magyar73 <Magyar73@...> wrote:

                                      > How about putting it in a pillow case and running it through an old
                                      > fashioned ringer?  Would that be enough pressure?
                                      >  
                                      > Chris
                                      >  

                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > From: Bobby Yates Emory
                                      > To: oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 6:10 PM
                                      > Subject: Re: [oil_from_algae] Separating water from algae
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Faith,
                                      >
                                      > I have a generic Porta - Power (a very flexible hydraulic tool used to
                                      > straighten wrecked auto bodies).  I could use it like you suggested
                                      > (and I will).  But most people don't have a Porta - Power lying about.
                                      >  I was trying to come up with something easier / less expensive to
                                      > find.
                                      >
                                      > At this point, for backyard experimenters extracting oil for up to 5
                                      > gallons of algae,  my best guess is a thrift shop blender and let the
                                      > result sit for 24 hours.
                                      >
                                      > For scientists trying to produce accurate test results, chemical extraction.
                                      >
                                      > Bobby
                                      >
                                      > <snip>


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