Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: "surface area"

Expand Messages
  • lendlabs
    RAMON, You said Nannochloropsis, that is great green algae. I had a friend s friend in AZ that got Rotifers in his algae and took over. Rotifers have very
    Message 1 of 22 , Mar 1, 2009
    • 0 Attachment
      RAMON,
      You said Nannochloropsis, that is great green algae. I had a friend 's
      friend in AZ that got Rotifers in his algae and took over. Rotifers
      have very high food value for fish. We used them to keep down the algae
      in the fish pond.. The XXXX so fast that they keep the tank clean.

      Now for the question at hand. I have also used Na Bicarb to do the same
      thing. I have found that you can use a lot of wood ash to make the pH
      about 7.5 to 8 with a lot of K+ and Phosphate and enough micro elements
      to keep the algae very green..It is free also!!!
      The B.Braunii race b under stress produces a lot of yellow and orange
      color ( luten and beta caratene).. Great antioxidents. The race A
      produces a lot of 6 omega and protein.. Nannochloropsis is better.. For
      you use ,Nannochloropsis is a winner.

      Well, it sounds like you have a plan.. Keep us in the know and feed
      those fish or Rotifers..

      Bruce
      --- In oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com, Ramon Macaraig <monmac52@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > Dear Bruce,
      >
      > I have been using baking soda as carbon source to go around the
      complexities of dissolving bubbled CO2 in waters of different salinities
      and temperatures. So long as I maintain the pH between 7.0 and 8.0, I
      can keep on adding the bicarb. If the system uses up the carbon to make
      algae, the pH goes up during the light phase and I add more bicarb
      calibrated to the cell production. I keep my aquarium aerator running
      during the dark phase when more oxygen may be needed by the system.
      >
      > Economy tells me that I may have to calibrate the critical level of
      the DO in the water before running the aerators. In the light phase, the
      aerator is turned off as there is enough DO from the photosynthesis for
      respiration. I run the aerator for a few minutes every hour just for the
      mixing effect. The electronic control geeks are having a field day with
      the switching logic for light and aerator control in the PBR we are
      asking them to design. I want them to add the bicarb feed control as
      managed by the pH meter and maybe the fertilizer, later.
      >
      > At this time, I am just using 2 fluorescent bulbs as light source for
      4 5-gal jugs in the culture of Nannochloropsis sp. as larval feed for
      various species.
      >
      >
      > Regards,
      >
      > Ramon M. Macaraig
      > Alsons Aquaculture Corportaion
      >
      >
      >
      > ________________________________
      > From: lendlabs lendlabs@...
      > To: oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Sunday, March 1, 2009 5:50:35 AM
      > Subject: [oil_from_algae] Re: "surface area"
      >
      >
      > Jim,
      > Sorry about that..It meet the need for light by use of reflection of
      the
      > light through the media about as well as a light on both sides...CO2
      is
      > the limiting factor and this test did not test the effect of CO2. I am
      > sure when you add CO2 the increased Green color( adsorption of red)
      will
      > change the results.. some.. We also tried/ used a window and a large
      > reflective system. But did not have room to have a comparison test
      > without the reflection. High pH and High salt keep growth low as did
      > B.Braunii Race B (s2007) with the oil buoyancy do not cling to the
      > glass. IF Algae clings to glass sides, you have wild algae!@!
      > Bruce
      > --- In oil_from_algae@ yahoogroups. com, "Jim Bowery" jabowery@ .>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > --- In oil_from_algae@ yahoogroups. com, "lendlabs" lendlabs@ wrote:
      > > > worked ok.
      > >
      > > Worked ok compared to what?
      > >
      > > > --- In oil_from_algae@ yahoogroups. com, "Jim Bowery" <jabowery@>
      > > > wrote:
      > > > > compared to simple raceway mixing?
      > >
      >
    • lendlabs
      This might be interesting if you want to try our advanced pyramid PBR.. with O2 valve... Production of eicosapentaenoic acid by Nannochloropsis sp. cultures in
      Message 2 of 22 , Mar 1, 2009
      • 0 Attachment

        This might be interesting if you want to try our advanced pyramid PBR.. with O2 valve...

        Production of eicosapentaenoic acid by Nannochloropsis sp. cultures in outdoor tubular photobioreactors

        Purchase the full-text article



        References and further reading may be available for this article. To view references and further reading you must purchase this article.

        G. Chini Zittelli, F. Lavista, A. Bastianini, L. Rodolfi, M. Vincenzini and M. R. TrediciCorresponding Author Contact Information, E-mail The Corresponding Author

        Dipartimento di Scienze e Tecnologie Alimentari e Microbiologiche dell'Università di Firenze and Centro di Studio dei Microrganismi Autotrofi del CNR, P.le delle Cascine, 27, 50144, Firenze, Italy


        Received 3 November 1998; 
        Revised 8 December 1998; 
        accepted 22 December 1998. 
        Available online 11 June 1999.

        Abstract

        Autotrophic microalgae cultures have been proposed as an alternative source of EPA, a nutritionally important polyunsaturated fatty acid that plays a key role in the prevention and treatment of several human diseases and disorders. The technology currently available is however, considered commercially not viable because of the low degree of control of algae cultures in outdoor open ponds. The use of closed reactors could overcome these limitations and bring EPA production by microalgae closer to becoming a reality. In this study, we have demonstrated the feasibility of outdoor cultivation of Nannochloropsis sp. in tubular reactors and the potential of this eustigmatophyte as an alternative source of EPA. Nannochloropsis sp. was cultivated in NHTRs of different sizes (from 10.2 to 610 l) from spring to autumn under the climatic conditions of central Italy. EPA productivity essentially reflected the productivity of the culture and reached its maximum in May–June (mean monthly value: 32 mg l-1 day-1). Although the fatty acid composition of the biomass varied significantly during the cultivation period, EPA content remained rather stable around the value of 4% of dry biomass. The transfer of the cultures from laboratory to outdoor conditions, the exposure to natural light–dark cycles, along with lowering the salt concentration from 33 g l-1 (seawater salinity value) to 20 g l-1, factors that caused lasting modifications in the fatty acid content and composition of Nannochloropsis sp., did not significantly affect the EPA content of the biomass.

        Author Keywords: Eicosapentaenoic acid; Nannochloropsis sp.; Microalgae mass cultivation; Tubular photobioreactors

        AA, arachidonic acid or 20:4ω6; DCMU, 3-(3:4-dichlorophenyl)-1:1-dimethyl urea; DHA, docosahexaenoic acid or 22:6ω3; EPA, eicosapentaenoic acid or 20:5ω3; NHTR: near-horizontal tubular photobioreactor; PUFAs, polyunsaturated fatty acids; PVC, polyvinyl chloride; TFA, total fatty acids

        --- In oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com, "lendlabs" <lendlabs@...> wrote:
        >
        > RAMON,
        > You said Nannochloropsis, that is great green algae. I had a friend 's
        > friend in AZ that got Rotifers in his algae and took over. Rotifers
        > have very high food value for fish. We used them to keep down the algae
        > in the fish pond.. The XXXX so fast that they keep the tank clean.
        >
        > Now for the question at hand. I have also used Na Bicarb to do the same
        > thing. I have found that you can use a lot of wood ash to make the pH
        > about 7.5 to 8 with a lot of K+ and Phosphate and enough micro elements
        > to keep the algae very green..It is free also!!!
        > The B.Braunii race b under stress produces a lot of yellow and orange
        > color ( luten and beta caratene).. Great antioxidents. The race A
        > produces a lot of 6 omega and protein.. Nannochloropsis is better.. For
        > you use ,Nannochloropsis is a winner.
        >
        > Well, it sounds like you have a plan.. Keep us in the know and feed
        > those fish or Rotifers..
        >
        > Bruce
        > --- In oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com, Ramon Macaraig monmac52@
        > wrote:
        > >
        > > Dear Bruce,
        > >
        > > I have been using baking soda as carbon source to go around the
        > complexities of dissolving bubbled CO2 in waters of different salinities
        > and temperatures. So long as I maintain the pH between 7.0 and 8.0, I
        > can keep on adding the bicarb. If the system uses up the carbon to make
        > algae, the pH goes up during the light phase and I add more bicarb
        > calibrated to the cell production. I keep my aquarium aerator running
        > during the dark phase when more oxygen may be needed by the system.
        > >
        > > Economy tells me that I may have to calibrate the critical level of
        > the DO in the water before running the aerators. In the light phase, the
        > aerator is turned off as there is enough DO from the photosynthesis for
        > respiration. I run the aerator for a few minutes every hour just for the
        > mixing effect. The electronic control geeks are having a field day with
        > the switching logic for light and aerator control in the PBR we are
        > asking them to design. I want them to add the bicarb feed control as
        > managed by the pH meter and maybe the fertilizer, later.
        > >
        > > At this time, I am just using 2 fluorescent bulbs as light source for
        > 4 5-gal jugs in the culture of Nannochloropsis sp. as larval feed for
        > various species.
        > >
        > >
        > > Regards,
        > >
        > > Ramon M. Macaraig
        > > Alsons Aquaculture Corportaion
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > ________________________________
        > > From: lendlabs lendlabs@
        > > To: oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com
        > > Sent: Sunday, March 1, 2009 5:50:35 AM
        > > Subject: [oil_from_algae] Re: "surface area"
        > >
        > >
        > > Jim,
        > > Sorry about that..It meet the need for light by use of reflection of
        > the
        > > light through the media about as well as a light on both sides...CO2
        > is
        > > the limiting factor and this test did not test the effect of CO2. I am
        > > sure when you add CO2 the increased Green color( adsorption of red)
        > will
        > > change the results.. some.. We also tried/ used a window and a large
        > > reflective system. But did not have room to have a comparison test
        > > without the reflection. High pH and High salt keep growth low as did
        > > B.Braunii Race B (s2007) with the oil buoyancy do not cling to the
        > > glass. IF Algae clings to glass sides, you have wild algae!@!
        > > Bruce
        > > --- In oil_from_algae@ yahoogroups. com, "Jim Bowery" jabowery@ .>
        > > wrote:
        > > >
        > > > --- In oil_from_algae@ yahoogroups. com, "lendlabs" lendlabs@ wrote:
        > > > > worked ok.
        > > >
        > > > Worked ok compared to what?
        > > >
        > > > > --- In oil_from_algae@ yahoogroups. com, "Jim Bowery" <jabowery@>
        > > > > wrote:
        > > > > > compared to simple raceway mixing?
        > > >
        > >
        >
      • Marcel Geers
        Jim, A matter of semantics. The research is focussed on diluting the light intensity, to prevent photo inhibition. Wageningen University and Researchcentre
        Message 3 of 22 , Mar 2, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          Jim,

          A matter of semantics. The research is focussed on diluting the light
          intensity, to prevent photo inhibition.

          Wageningen University and Researchcentre (WUR) has put up an algae
          information site in an effort to reduce the amount of disinformation
          available in the world of micro-algae.

          http://www.algae.wur.nl/

          This is the part related to your question:

          ..., light is the most difficult parameter to provide, because it
          cannot be stored and ideally should be distributed in such a way that
          low light intensities are provided everywhere in the photobioreactor.
          However, in most systems, ideal light intensities occur only in a very
          small part. Photosynthetic yields drop dramatically at the walls (or
          top) where photoinhibition and heat dissipation occur due to too high
          light intensities. Further inside the culture, light cannot penetrate
          because of cell shading and microalgae are subjected to darkness.
          Another bottleneck in growing microalgae are nutrients like nitrogen,
          phosphorus and sulfate but also dissolved carbon dioxide as the
          inorganic carbon source for photosynthetic biomass production. At low
          biomass concentrations, carbon dioxide supply and removal of excess
          oxygen is mostly not a bottleneck, however, at high biomass
          concentrations (>10 g L-1) they can become rate limiting.


          Marcel


          --- In oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Bowery" <jabowery@...> wrote:
          >
          > OK, I'll try again:
          >
          > Is there ANY evidence that increasing the "surface area" exposed to
          > light, without increasing the light, increases algae growth rates
          > compared to simple raceway mixing? You know, the way people are
          > always talking about with "going vertical" or using "fiber optics to
          > disperse the light"?
          >
          > Since hundreds of millions of dollars are being invested on the
          > assumption that this is true, it would be nice to see SOME evidence.
          >
        • Jim Bowery
          ... light intensity, to prevent photo inhibition. My impression is that it is a matter of differing hypotheses about light-phase vs dark-phase. ... That is an
          Message 4 of 22 , Mar 2, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            --- In oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com, "Marcel Geers" <mpageers@...>
            wrote:
            > A matter of semantics. The research is focussed on diluting the
            light intensity, to prevent photo inhibition.

            My impression is that it is a matter of differing hypotheses about
            light-phase vs dark-phase.

            > ..., light is the most difficult parameter to provide, because it
            > cannot be stored

            That is an hypothesis.

            The competing hypothesis is that raceway algae are exposed to intense
            light for short periods of time, store the energy, and complete the
            photosynthesis during the time they are "self-shaded" by the dense
            algae culture.

            The only way to decide between the two hypotheses is to run actual
            biomass production rate comparisons between raceways and the proposed
            photobioreactors.

            HAS NO ONE DONE THIS???
          • Ken Liberty
            Ramon, Your set up sounds similar to ours. One thing I would caution is that adding NaHCO3 also increases salinity. Perhaps for the time frame that you re
            Message 5 of 22 , Mar 2, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              Ramon,

              Your set up sounds similar to ours. One thing I would caution is
              that adding NaHCO3 also increases salinity. Perhaps for the time
              frame that you're growing this amoung is not significant. When we
              run high bicarbonate we account for the Na+ and don't add as much
              sea salt (i.e., NaCl).

              On a side note, I've always thought O2 respiration was bad since it
              uses energy rather than generates energy. What are your thoughts
              about O2 versus CO2?

              Ken



              --- In oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com, Ramon Macaraig <monmac52@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > Dear Bruce,
              >
              > I have been using baking soda as carbon source to go around the
              complexities of dissolving bubbled CO2 in waters of different
              salinities and temperatures. So long as I maintain the pH between
              7.0 and 8.0, I can keep on adding the bicarb. If the system uses up
              the carbon to make algae, the pH goes up during the light phase and
              I add more bicarb calibrated to the cell production. I keep my
              aquarium aerator running during the dark phase when more oxygen may
              be needed by the system.
              >
              > Economy tells me that I may have to calibrate the critical level
              of the DO in the water before running the aerators. In the light
              phase, the aerator is turned off as there is enough DO from the
              photosynthesis for respiration. I run the aerator for a few minutes
              every hour just for the mixing effect. The electronic control geeks
              are having a field day with the switching logic for light and
              aerator control in the PBR we are asking them to design. I want them
              to add the bicarb feed control as managed by the pH meter and maybe
              the fertilizer, later.
              >
              > At this time, I am just using 2 fluorescent bulbs as light source
              for 4 5-gal jugs in the culture of Nannochloropsis sp. as larval
              feed for various species.
              >
              >
              > Regards,
              >
              > Ramon M. Macaraig
              > Alsons Aquaculture Corportaion
              >
              >
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: lendlabs <lendlabs@...>
              > To: oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Sunday, March 1, 2009 5:50:35 AM
              > Subject: [oil_from_algae] Re: "surface area"
              >
              >
              > Jim,
              > Sorry about that..It meet the need for light by use of reflection
              of the
              > light through the media about as well as a light on both
              sides...CO2 is
              > the limiting factor and this test did not test the effect of CO2.
              I am
              > sure when you add CO2 the increased Green color( adsorption of
              red) will
              > change the results.. some.. We also tried/ used a window and a
              large
              > reflective system. But did not have room to have a comparison test
              > without the reflection. High pH and High salt keep growth low as
              did
              > B.Braunii Race B (s2007) with the oil buoyancy do not cling to the
              > glass. IF Algae clings to glass sides, you have wild algae!@!
              > Bruce
              > --- In oil_from_algae@ yahoogroups. com, "Jim Bowery" <jabowery@ .>
              > wrote:
              > >
              > > --- In oil_from_algae@ yahoogroups. com, "lendlabs" lendlabs@
              wrote:
              > > > worked ok.
              > >
              > > Worked ok compared to what?
              > >
              > > > --- In oil_from_algae@ yahoogroups. com, "Jim Bowery"
              <jabowery@>
              > > > wrote:
              > > > > compared to simple raceway mixing?
              > >
              >
            • lendlabs
              Ken, Two point you need to think about... CO2 forms an acid that will unite with the base to form a salt.. with a pH of 8.5 you will remove almost 100% of the
              Message 6 of 22 , Mar 2, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                Ken,
                Two point you need to think about...
                CO2 forms an acid that will unite with the base to form a salt.. with a pH of 8.5 you will remove almost 100% of the CO2 from the gas. We use this with our O2/CO2 lock .. when the pH in the lock = 7.5 to 8 we clear the lock and add new solution.. As always you check the salts in the growth media by SG.  1.015 to 1.03 is good for B.Braunii Race Bor Molarity of 0.15 or 0.88%( about the same as NS = 0.9% NaCl).  It is cheaper to use wood ash then other medias , our test system used Wood ash, sea salt, Na Bicarb or NAOH( AND A GOOD FILTERED SOIL EXTRACT for the lock = almost pure O2 for other uses like making vinegar .

                The Na Bicarb is also know as "Clorine Free Na"  as NaOH, Na Phosphate Na Nitrate etc...
                When the CO2 is used by the algae from Ca or Na Bicarb you get a lot of Na2CO3 that increases the pH up to 8.5 or so with B.Braunii Race B.  We also use late PM and eary am sun as the reactor are covered to prevent West Texas hail stones from braking our glass in the reactors...

                I have set up test with as much as 25% W/V Oak Wood Ash with B.Braunii Race B. (CLONE 2007 OR LB007) and adjusted pH to as high as 8.9 with no problem.. Put sample in South Window and they do make a lot of Beta Carotene and Lutin (orange and yellow)..
                ONE MORE DETAIL, IF YOU USE SEA SALT YOU WILL GET D. SALINA FREE. ESP FROM SPAIN..
                Regards,
                Bruce

                --- In oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com, "Ken Liberty" <earthroots2@...



                > wrote:
                >
                > Ramon,
                >
                > Your set up sounds similar to ours. One thing I would caution is
                > that adding NaHCO3 also increases salinity. Perhaps for the time
                > frame that you're growing this amoung is not significant. When we
                > run high bicarbonate we account for the Na+ and don't add as much
                > sea salt (i.e., NaCl).
                >
                > On a side note, I've always thought O2 respiration was bad since it
                > uses energy rather than generates energy. What are your thoughts
                > about O2 versus CO2?
                >
                > Ken
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com, Ramon Macaraig monmac52@
                > wrote:
                > >
                > > Dear Bruce,
                > >
                > > I have been using baking soda as carbon source to go around the
                > complexities of dissolving bubbled CO2 in waters of different
                > salinities and temperatures. So long as I maintain the pH between
                > 7.0 and 8.0, I can keep on adding the bicarb. If the system uses up
                > the carbon to make algae, the pH goes up during the light phase and
                > I add more bicarb calibrated to the cell production. I keep my
                > aquarium aerator running during the dark phase when more oxygen may
                > be needed by the system.
                > >
                > > Economy tells me that I may have to calibrate the critical level
                > of the DO in the water before running the aerators. In the light
                > phase, the aerator is turned off as there is enough DO from the
                > photosynthesis for respiration. I run the aerator for a few minutes
                > every hour just for the mixing effect. The electronic control geeks
                > are having a field day with the switching logic for light and
                > aerator control in the PBR we are asking them to design. I want them
                > to add the bicarb feed control as managed by the pH meter and maybe
                > the fertilizer, later.
                > >
                > > At this time, I am just using 2 fluorescent bulbs as light source
                > for 4 5-gal jugs in the culture of Nannochloropsis sp. as larval
                > feed for various species.
                > >
                > >
                > > Regards,
                > >
                > > Ramon M. Macaraig
                > > Alsons Aquaculture Corportaion
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > ________________________________
                > > From: lendlabs lendlabs@
                > > To: oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com
                > > Sent: Sunday, March 1, 2009 5:50:35 AM
                > > Subject: [oil_from_algae] Re: "surface area"
                > >
                > >
                > > Jim,
                > > Sorry about that..It meet the need for light by use of reflection
                > of the
                > > light through the media about as well as a light on both
                > sides...CO2 is
                > > the limiting factor and this test did not test the effect of CO2.
                > I am
                > > sure when you add CO2 the increased Green color( adsorption of
                > red) will
                > > change the results.. some.. We also tried/ used a window and a
                > large
                > > reflective system. But did not have room to have a comparison test
                > > without the reflection. High pH and High salt keep growth low as
                > did
                > > B.Braunii Race B (s2007) with the oil buoyancy do not cling to the
                > > glass. IF Algae clings to glass sides, you have wild algae!@!
                > > Bruce
                > > --- In oil_from_algae@ yahoogroups. com, "Jim Bowery" <jabowery@ .>
                > > wrote:
                > > >
                > > > --- In oil_from_algae@ yahoogroups. com, "lendlabs" lendlabs@
                > wrote:
                > > > > worked ok.
                > > >
                > > > Worked ok compared to what?
                > > >
                > > > > --- In oil_from_algae@ yahoogroups. com, "Jim Bowery"
                > <jabowery@>
                > > > > wrote:
                > > > > > compared to simple raceway mixing?
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • Marcel Geers
                ... How is this an hypothesis? I know of light memory for future light switches connected to fiber optics, but the only thing they can do there is to make the
                Message 7 of 22 , Mar 3, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  > > ..., light is the most difficult parameter to provide, because it
                  > > cannot be stored
                  >
                  > That is an hypothesis.
                  How is this an hypothesis? I know of light memory for future light
                  switches connected to fiber optics, but the only thing they can do
                  there is to make the lightpath very long, thus delaying light. (This
                  is in the electronics sector, not algae) Perhaps "cannot" is the wrong
                  word as nobody knows what the future brings. But looking at the rest
                  of your reply, we differ about the meaning of "storing light". They
                  are not referring to light energy, but light itself.

                  I don't have direct access to biology related scientific papers, so
                  I'll have to get back to you on the main part of your question.
                  Perhaps others here can provide you with some.

                  Keep in mind though, that yields should be sufficiently high to offset
                  costs, but my guess is that you are fully aware of that.
                • lendlabs
                  Marcel, Yes, light energy can be stored in the Form of ATP.. Take 60 cycle high energy pulses from the next generation Florescent bulbs or a single wave length
                  Message 8 of 22 , Mar 3, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Marcel,
                    Yes, light energy can be stored in the Form of ATP.. Take 60 cycle high
                    energy pulses from the next generation Florescent bulbs or a single wave
                    length LED. The light will or can be long enough to create a saturated
                    supply of ATP to be converted to sugar during the dark phase. We have
                    been working with the system to get the max amount of oil from the light
                    and heat we have to work with.. Call it a temperature/light effect. We
                    do not at this time have a system to store the excess light. Too much
                    light will cause things like B.Braunii Race B. ( bl007) to make orange
                    or yellow pigment to protect itself from UV light , etc..WE need the
                    correct light like red color or IR for warmth.. These can not be stored
                    as light but as energy in a battery or very good Homopolar
                    motor/flywheel etc..
                    Also too much concentration is bad... better to defuse the light and
                    reflect it back.

                    Just a thought..Any Ideas on how better to do this???

                    Bruce
                    --- In oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com, "Marcel Geers" <mpageers@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > > > ..., light is the most difficult parameter to provide, because it
                    > > > cannot be stored
                    > >
                    > > That is an hypothesis.
                    > How is this an hypothesis? I know of light memory for future light
                    > switches connected to fiber optics, but the only thing they can do
                    > there is to make the lightpath very long, thus delaying light. (This
                    > is in the electronics sector, not algae) Perhaps "cannot" is the wrong
                    > word as nobody knows what the future brings. But looking at the rest
                    > of your reply, we differ about the meaning of "storing light". They
                    > are not referring to light energy, but light itself.
                    >
                    > I don't have direct access to biology related scientific papers, so
                    > I'll have to get back to you on the main part of your question.
                    > Perhaps others here can provide you with some.
                    >
                    > Keep in mind though, that yields should be sufficiently high to offset
                    > costs, but my guess is that you are fully aware of that.
                    >
                  • Jim Bowery
                    Photosynthesis occurs in two stages. In the first stage, light-dependent reactions or light reactions capture the energy of light and use it to make the
                    Message 9 of 22 , Mar 3, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Photosynthesis occurs in two stages. In the first stage,
                      light-dependent reactions or light reactions capture the energy of
                      light and use it to make the energy-storage molecules ATP and NADPH.
                      During the second stage, the light-independent reactions use these
                      products to capture and reduce carbon dioxide.

                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photosynthesis#Overview

                      The questions I have are:

                      1) What is the maximum rate of ATP/NADPH creation? (This limits the
                      useful light flux.)

                      2) What is the maximum amount of ATP/NADPH creation per Chloroplast?

                      3) How many Chloroplasts does a typical algae cell contain?

                      These 3 quantities produce a time limit of light exposure per cell:

                      number*amount/rate
                      where rate = ergs/ms
                      amount = ergs/Chloroplast
                      number = Chloroplasts/cell

                      This tells you a lot about how you want your system to circulate the
                      algae and handle the insolation.
                    • Jim Bowery
                      Erratum: After posting I realized that the below formulae, incorrectly, assumed that the chloroplasts would be charged in series rather than in parallel.
                      Message 10 of 22 , Mar 3, 2009
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Erratum: After posting I realized that the below formulae,
                        incorrectly, assumed that the chloroplasts would be "charged" in
                        series rather than in parallel. The number of chloroplasts/cell may
                        not be relevant.

                        --- In oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Bowery" <jabowery@...> >
                        These 3 quantities produce a time limit of light exposure per cell:
                        >
                        > number*amount/rate
                        > where rate = ergs/ms
                        > amount = ergs/Chloroplast
                        > number = Chloroplasts/cell
                      • Bobby Yates Emory
                        Marcel, I think you misunderstood what was suggested. In a raceway pond, at any one moment, most of the algae cannot see the sun. The algae culture exhibits
                        Message 11 of 22 , Mar 3, 2009
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Marcel,

                          I think you misunderstood what was suggested.

                          In a raceway pond, at any one moment, most of the algae cannot "see" the sun.  The algae culture exhibits a property called self shading.  When a culture gets really dense, the algae cells near the top block any light from getting more than a inch into the culture.  So all the cells further down in the culture are literally in the dark.

                          But this works out in the real world.  If you keep the cultured stirred, those cells on the top don't stay there long.  They swirl around and end up in the dark.  And the ones that were in the dark, end up on top.

                          Another thing that makes it work is that the cells that were on top "store" the sunlight energy while they are on top and then process that energy into ATP while they are in the dark.  They are only storing the energy for a few seconds and we have no way to tap into the stored energy to light a room or use the light energy in any of the ways we normally do.  I think this is the storage of energy that

                          Another factor that make s it work is that most algae cells only need about 1/10 the full strength of the sun, so the individual cells only needs to be in the sun about 1/10 of the time.

                          (Reality note - each species is different - some need more sun exposure than others.)

                          (Reality note - the self shading depth is very dependent on species, growth stage, cell density, etc.  The one inch was just to give an idea - it may be even less.)

                          Bobby

                          On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 4:58 AM, Marcel Geers <mpageers@...> wrote:


                          > > ..., light is the most difficult parameter to provide, because it
                          > > cannot be stored
                          >
                          > That is an hypothesis.
                          How is this an hypothesis? I know of light memory for future light
                          switches connected to fiber optics, but the only thing they can do
                          there is to make the lightpath very long, thus delaying light. (This
                          is in the electronics sector, not algae) Perhaps "cannot" is the wrong
                          word as nobody knows what the future brings. But looking at the rest
                          of your reply, we differ about the meaning of "storing light". They
                          are not referring to light energy, but light itself.

                          I don't have direct access to biology related scientific papers, so
                          I'll have to get back to you on the main part of your question.
                          Perhaps others here can provide you with some.

                          Keep in mind though, that yields should be sufficiently high to offset
                          costs, but my guess is that you are fully aware of that.




                          --
                          Toward freedom,

                          Bobby Yates Emory
                        • Marcel Geers
                          ... Bruce, If you take a photobioreactor (note, this is often equalled to a closed system, but this is not per definition the case) in which the light is
                          Message 12 of 22 , Mar 4, 2009
                          • 0 Attachment
                            > We
                            > do not at this time have a system to store the excess light. Too much
                            > light will cause things like B.Braunii Race B. ( bl007) to make orange
                            > or yellow pigment to protect itself from UV light , etc..
                            Bruce,

                            If you take a photobioreactor (note, this is often equalled to a closed system, but this is not per definition the case) in which the light is diluted, the excess light can be used effectively, thus optimising the efficiency. I'm not a biologist and what I know about algae is what I've learned from the cooperation with Wageningen University. The yellow pigment you mention could also be seen as an oppurtunity. Carotenoids are a valuable product, much more than biofuel. Wageningen University has developed a lab-method where they "milk" the carotenoids out of the algae, making harvesting easier.


                            >WE need the
                            > correct light like red color or IR for warmth.. These can not be stored
                            > as light but as energy in a battery or very good Homopolar
                            > motor/flywheel etc..
                            Or just simply as usefull heat usage! The majority of the energy usage in buildings over here in the Netherlands is for heating, of course, this can be different for your part of the world.

                            > Also too much concentration is bad... better to defuse the light and
                            > reflect it back.
                            Back where? See my earlier comment.

                            > Just a thought..Any Ideas on how better to do this???
                            Just zoom out and look at the system as a whole from above. There's sunlight, there's algae, there's products. Current photosynthesis usages a limited frequency range of the light spectrum (PAR). How to optimally use this light?
                            What options can we think of?

                            1 Increasing the amount of light available to the algae
                            -do we concetrate and control the light?
                            -do we dilute the light as to reduce inhibition and increase productivity?
                            -do we try to transfer non-PAR energy into the PAR region somehow?
                            -do we convert non-PAR energy into heat and electricity, to power artificial lighting or secundary systems?

                            2 increasing photosynthesis itself
                            -rubisco, a vital enzyme in photosynthesis, is in fact VERY inefficient in terms of energy. Perhaps different enzymes could be applied in an engineered photosynthesis 2.0, combine this with the above and we will have movies about the attack of the killer algae! ;)
                          • lendlabs
                            Marcel, There are ponds where then have grown in High Salt alga that produced beta carotene or lutin for years.. They also produce sea salt for France.. large
                            Message 13 of 22 , Mar 4, 2009
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Marcel,
                              There are ponds where then have grown in High Salt alga that produced
                              beta carotene or lutin for years.. They also produce sea salt for
                              France.. large clumpy rocksalt size. Also D.Saline makes a red form of
                              antioxidant .. that make shrimp red etc..

                              Bruce
                              --- In oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com, "Marcel Geers" <mpageers@...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > > We
                              > > do not at this time have a system to store the excess light. Too
                              much
                              > > light will cause things like B.Braunii Race B. ( bl007) to make
                              orange
                              > > or yellow pigment to protect itself from UV light , etc..
                              > Bruce,
                              >
                              > If you take a photobioreactor (note, this is often equalled to a
                              closed system, but this is not per definition the case) in which the
                              light is diluted, the excess light can be used effectively, thus
                              optimising the efficiency. I'm not a biologist and what I know about
                              algae is what I've learned from the cooperation with Wageningen
                              University. The yellow pigment you mention could also be seen as an
                              oppurtunity. Carotenoids are a valuable product, much more than biofuel.
                              Wageningen University has developed a lab-method where they "milk" the
                              carotenoids out of the algae, making harvesting easier.
                              >
                              >
                              > >WE need the
                              > > correct light like red color or IR for warmth.. These can not be
                              stored
                              > > as light but as energy in a battery or very good Homopolar
                              > > motor/flywheel etc..
                              > Or just simply as usefull heat usage! The majority of the energy usage
                              in buildings over here in the Netherlands is for heating, of course,
                              this can be different for your part of the world.
                              >
                              > > Also too much concentration is bad... better to defuse the light and
                              > > reflect it back.
                              > Back where? See my earlier comment.
                              >
                              > > Just a thought..Any Ideas on how better to do this???
                              > Just zoom out and look at the system as a whole from above. There's
                              sunlight, there's algae, there's products. Current photosynthesis usages
                              a limited frequency range of the light spectrum (PAR). How to optimally
                              use this light?
                              > What options can we think of?
                              >
                              > 1 Increasing the amount of light available to the algae
                              > -do we concetrate and control the light?
                              > -do we dilute the light as to reduce inhibition and increase
                              productivity?
                              > -do we try to transfer non-PAR energy into the PAR region somehow?
                              > -do we convert non-PAR energy into heat and electricity, to power
                              artificial lighting or secundary systems?
                              >
                              > 2 increasing photosynthesis itself
                              > -rubisco, a vital enzyme in photosynthesis, is in fact VERY
                              inefficient in terms of energy. Perhaps different enzymes could be
                              applied in an engineered photosynthesis 2.0, combine this with the above
                              and we will have movies about the attack of the killer algae! ;)
                              >
                            • Marcel Geers
                              ... I think I was misunderstood actually. But that doesn t matter, I think we re all on the same line :) I wanted to clarify why the increase in surface area
                              Message 14 of 22 , Mar 5, 2009
                              • 0 Attachment
                                --- In oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com, Bobby Yates Emory <liberty1@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Marcel,
                                >
                                > I think you misunderstood what was suggested.
                                I think I was misunderstood actually. But that doesn't matter, I think we're all on the same line :)


                                I wanted to clarify why the increase in surface area was usefull. The idea behind is that you take a certain irradiance on for example 1 m^2. That light is reduced in intensity by spreading it over a larger effective area, thus making better use of the light. The light and dark cycles won't change, but the efficiency of the light cycle will!

                                Marcel
                              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.