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Re: Major industrial installation

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  • jzpearson
    I m new to this thread, a lil confused the format is somewhat scrammbled, interested in hearing more about currently practicing algal farms in U.S. thanks, Joe
    Message 1 of 15 , Dec 2, 2004
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      I'm new to this thread, a lil confused the format is somewhat
      scrammbled, interested in hearing more about currently practicing
      algal farms in U.S.
      thanks, Joe


      --- In oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com, Bobby Yates Emory
      <liberty1@g...> wrote:
      > Mindi,
      >
      > You are right - Martek Bio in SC and it is nutraceutical.
      >
      > I have no info but it is one of the areas I plan to pursue.
      >
      > A group of school kids in the Netherlands were suggesting drying, a
      > press, and then a chemical extraction. The chemical sounded nasty but
      > I have no real knowledge of it.
      >
      >
      http://www.kluyvercentre.nl/content/documents/Verslag3biodieselmaurickcollege.pdf
      >
      > I think they had some university help.
      >
      > I hope you will let us know what you find or develop.
      >
      > Bobby
      >
      >
      > On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 07:06:56 -0800 (PST), Mindi Hertzog
      > <mindibethh@y...> wrote:
      > >
      > > I'm pretty sure it's MartekBio. which is making it for
      nutraceutical use.
      > > Can anyone help me actually extract oil from algae??? Mindi
      > >
      > > Bobby Yates Emory <liberty1@g...> wrote:
      > >
      > > I just recieved news there is a major new algae to oil plant in N.C.
      > >
      > > More later,
      > > Bobby
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ________________________________
      > > Do you Yahoo!?
      > > Meet the all-new My Yahoo! â€" Try it today!
      ________________________________
      > > Do you Yahoo!?
      > > Meet the all-new My Yahoo! â€" Try it today!
      > >
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      > >
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      > >
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      > >
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      > >
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      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      > --
      > Toward freedom,
      >
      > Bobby Yates Emory
    • Bobby Yates Emory
      Joe, Sorry, there aren t any. There are some similar applications, but no algae farms. We are going to have to develop this technology. Welcome to the
      Message 2 of 15 , Dec 2, 2004
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        Joe,

        Sorry, there aren't any.

        There are some similar applications, but no algae farms. We are going
        to have to develop this technology. Welcome to the revolution.

        Please help us develop this.

        Bobby


        On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 05:15:40 -0000, jzpearson <jzpearson@...> wrote:
        >
        > I'm new to this thread, a lil confused the format is somewhat
        > scrammbled, interested in hearing more about currently practicing
        > algal farms in U.S.
        > thanks, Joe
        >
        >
        > --- In oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com, Bobby Yates Emory
        >
        >
        > <liberty1@g...> wrote:
        > > Mindi,
        > >
        > > You are right - Martek Bio in SC and it is nutraceutical.
        > >
        > > I have no info but it is one of the areas I plan to pursue.
        > >
        > > A group of school kids in the Netherlands were suggesting drying, a
        > > press, and then a chemical extraction. The chemical sounded nasty but
        > > I have no real knowledge of it.
        > >
        > >
        > http://www.kluyvercentre.nl/content/documents/Verslag3biodieselmaurickcollege.pdf
        > >
        > > I think they had some university help.
        > >
        > > I hope you will let us know what you find or develop.
        > >
        > > Bobby
        > >
        > >
        > > On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 07:06:56 -0800 (PST), Mindi Hertzog
        > > <mindibethh@y...> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > I'm pretty sure it's MartekBio. which is making it for
        > nutraceutical use.
        > > > Can anyone help me actually extract oil from algae??? Mindi
        > > >
        > > > Bobby Yates Emory <liberty1@g...> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > I just recieved news there is a major new algae to oil plant in N.C.
        > > >
        > > > More later,
        > > > Bobby
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > ________________________________
        > > > Do you Yahoo!?
        > > > Meet the all-new My Yahoo! â€" Try it today!
        > ________________________________
        > > > Do you Yahoo!?
        > > > Meet the all-new My Yahoo! â€" Try it today!
        >
        >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
        > > >
        > > > ADVERTISEMENT
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > ________________________________
        > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > > >
        > > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
        > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/oil_from_algae/
        > > >
        > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > > > oil_from_algae-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > > >
        > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > > --
        > > Toward freedom,
        > >
        > > Bobby Yates Emory
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
        >
        > ADVERTISEMENT
        >
        >
        > ________________________________
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        > To visit your group on the web, go to:
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/oil_from_algae/
        >
        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > oil_from_algae-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


        --
        Toward freedom,

        Bobby Yates Emory
      • James A. Bowery
        ... Earthrise Farms in the Imperial Valley is the largest algae farm in the world: http://www.earthrise.com/home.asp If you go on a tour, you have to sign a
        Message 3 of 15 , Dec 3, 2004
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          jzpearson wrote:

          >
          > I'm new to this thread, a lil confused the format is somewhat
          > scrammbled, interested in hearing more about currently practicing
          > algal farms in U.S.

          Earthrise Farms in the Imperial Valley is the largest algae farm in the
          world:

          http://www.earthrise.com/home.asp

          If you go on a tour, you have to sign a nondisclosure agreement. It's
          an impressive operation.

          I recommend you visit in the winter because when I visited in the middle
          of the summer, it was 115F in the shade and I burned out the engine on
          my VW microbus stranding me in the desert for a while. (Fortunately, I
          had spent a lot of time in the desert in that vehicle and was equipped
          for it.)
        • Bobby Yates Emory
          James, Like the operation in SC that started this thread, these are food and food suplement grade operations. They can afford much higher costs that a oil
          Message 4 of 15 , Dec 5, 2004
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            James,

            Like the operation in SC that started this thread, these are food and
            food suplement grade operations. They can afford much higher costs
            that a oil from algae opeation could. Also they are both growing
            spirulina, which only has 4 to 7 % oil. That makes them even more
            ineffeicient.

            We have to develop a process that is much more cost effective. I feel
            that Earthwise could probably help us learn to grow another species,
            but it doesn't sound like they would agree to.

            A guy who grows spirulina to grow fish was contributing to a BioDiesel
            list, but left in a huff when someone questioned using a species that
            produces to little oil. I assume we will have the usual problems with
            NIH (Not Invented Here).

            Bobby


            On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 00:14:55 -0800, James A. Bowery
            <jabowery@...> wrote:
            > jzpearson wrote:
            >
            > >
            > > I'm new to this thread, a lil confused the format is somewhat
            > > scrammbled, interested in hearing more about currently practicing
            > > algal farms in U.S.
            >
            > Earthrise Farms in the Imperial Valley is the largest algae farm in the
            > world:
            >
            > http://www.earthrise.com/home.asp
            >
            > If you go on a tour, you have to sign a nondisclosure agreement. It's
            > an impressive operation.
            >
            > I recommend you visit in the winter because when I visited in the middle
            > of the summer, it was 115F in the shade and I burned out the engine on
            > my VW microbus stranding me in the desert for a while. (Fortunately, I
            > had spent a lot of time in the desert in that vehicle and was equipped
            > for it.)
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
            >
            > ADVERTISEMENT
            >
            >
            > ________________________________
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            > To visit your group on the web, go to:
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/oil_from_algae/
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > oil_from_algae-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


            --
            Toward freedom,

            Bobby Yates Emory
          • James A. Bowery
            ... Right. There is a good chance they ll simply have you sign a non-disclosure agreement and show you around. What you _can_ get from them is leads on what
            Message 5 of 15 , Dec 5, 2004
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              Bobby Yates Emory wrote:

              > We have to develop a process that is much more cost effective. I
              > feel that Earthwise could probably help us learn to grow another
              > species, but it doesn't sound like they would agree to.

              Right. There is a good chance they'll simply have you sign a
              non-disclosure agreement and show you around. What you _can_ get from
              them is leads on what techniques to look for that might be in the public
              domain. If you learn of a technique from them that is actually in the
              public domain, you can use it. Anything they developed that isn't in
              the public domain is, of course, covered by the NDA.

              >
              > A guy who grows spirulina to grow fish was contributing to a
              > BioDiesel list, but left in a huff when someone questioned using a
              > species that produces to little oil. I assume we will have the usual
              > problems with NIH (Not Invented Here).

              Yeah I was one of the guys he claimed was out of line. You can read the
              thread here:

              http://forums.biodieselnow.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3414&whichpage=2

              Basically, I did some arithmetic that showed about how much oil you can
              expect to get from ponds under optimal conditions and it looked pretty
              bad for his system. This seriously was _not_ an attempt on my part to
              attack him. Indeed, I found his tilapia production system attractive
              enough to spend over $200 to have him ship me the manual on it. I
              simply wanted to put some arithmetic around the claims being made about
              algae systems so we could know what we were talking about. As John
              McCarthy has said, "He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk
              nonsense."

              I'll copy those calculations over to this forum.
            • James A. Bowery
              From the [url=http://www.nrel.gov/docs/legosti/fy98/24190.pdf]NREL s review of the Aquatic Species Laboratory s work[/url]: ... The Roswell test site
              Message 6 of 15 , Dec 5, 2004
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                From the [url=http://www.nrel.gov/docs/legosti/fy98/24190.pdf%5dNREL's
                review of the Aquatic Species Laboratory's work[/url]:

                quote:
                ------------------------------------------------------------------------

                The
                Roswell test site successfully completed a full year of operation
                with reasonable control of the algal species
                grown. Single day productivities reported over the course of one
                year were as high as 50 grams of algae
                per square meter per day, a long-term target for the program.
                Attempts to achieve consistently high
                productivities were hampered by low temperature conditions
                encountered at the site. The desert conditions
                of New Mexico provided ample sunlight, but temperatures regularly
                reached low levels (especially at
                night). If such locations are to be used in the future, some form of
                temperature control with enclosure of
                the ponds may well be required.
                ...
                The algae species studied in this program can produce up to 60% of their
                body weight in the form of TAGs.
                ------------------------------------------------------------------------


                I have to presume that when they say 50 grams they mean 50 /dry/ grams
                (dry meaning dehydrated, not oil-depleted).

                So, given the 70% recovery rate of cold press reported by Algaeman,
                doing a units calculation with Unicalc:

                50$/barrel_oil; 50gm_algae/(m^2*day); .8gm_oil/cm^3;
                .6gm_prepressed_oil/gm_algae; .7gm_oil/gm_prepressed_oil?$/(acre*month)

                = 1016.17 $/(acre*month)

                Please check for any errors, but it appears that under optimal
                conditions, meaning a sunny desert with warm nights year round and algae
                production consistently at the height achieved by ASP during their 20
                year study, using a species modified to produce optimal oil and a
                consistently high price for oil, one can get $1000 per acre per month.

                We have $1000/month to make this realistic and to pay the rest of the
                expenses of the operation per acre.

                A covering will eat into that $1000 in two ways:

                1) Amortization (which has to be fast)
                2) Solar flux reduction

                Let's take out the solar flux from the covering first and say we lose
                30% leaving us with $700 for the rest of the operation. Let's further
                say that we need half of that for expenses other than structure
                amortization, leaving us with $350. If we assume commercial lending
                rates of around 12% and zero amortization -- just debt service, we can
                afford $35,000 to cover an acre so with amortization it drops to
                sometning more like $10,000 to cover an acre.

                Covering these ponds sounds problematic under optimal conditions -- and
                we haven't even gone to climates with less total solar flux.

                The calculation I just did was to evaluate the feasibility of using
                enclosures to produce a crude oil equivalent. It can be slightly
                modified to give an idea of what you are going to get out an optimal
                backyard system as follows (again, using Calchemy's Unicalc
                http://www.calchemy.com/sbda.htm):

                50gm_dry_algae/(m^2*day); .8gm_oil/cm^3;
                .6gm_prepressed_oil/gm_dry_algae;
                .7gm_oil/gm_prepressed_oil?gal/(yard^2*month)

                = 0.17636 gal/(yard^2*month)

                What this says is that the best you can expect, under optimal species
                and growth conditions, of any algae-oil system that relies on the sun
                for its energy, is for each square yard of solar-exposed pond to produce
                just over a fifth of a gallon of pressed lipid oil each month -- which
                you must then process into biodiesel through the normal methods. If you
                find other energy sources you can feed to algae, you might beat this but
                algae are optimized to consume solar energy so you have to be very
                skeptical of any claims that exceed this productivity level and really
                find out where the energy is coming from and how the algae are
                metabolizing it.

                Let me try to break down the parameters of the calculation:

                50gm_dry_algae/(m^2*day)
                This is the target productivity figure given by the National Renewable
                Energy Laboratory's review of the last 25 years of algae biodiesel work.
                It basically says for a given area, how much dry algae you should be
                able to get out of an _optimal_ system per day -- optimal climate,
                species, solar flux at pond surface, etc. If you can economically create
                these conditions in your "back yard" then you can get that level of
                productivity. Find the NREL's review at:
                http://www.nrel.gov/docs/legosti/fy98/24190.pdf

                .8gm_oil/cm^3;
                This is the density, or specific gravity of diesel. Diesel isn't quite
                as dense as water. This probably should have been the density of lipid
                oil but I didn't have that figure handy.

                .6gm_prepressed_oil/gm_dry_algae;
                The _highest_ oil content, of oil-producing algae reported by the
                National Renewable Energy Laboratory's review, was 60%. This presumes
                algae grown under the high rate goal previously given of
                50gm_dry_algae/(m^2*day) but this growth rate has yet to be achieved
                with this high, 60% oil content (to the best of my current reading of
                the NREL report).

                .7gm_oil/gm_prepressed_oil
                This is your 70% figure. It basically says that for every gram of oil in
                the highest oil content algae, you can extract .7 gram of oil via cold
                press.

                These parameters are sufficient to calculate the best per-area
                cold-pressed lipid oil production you can expect. For every factor of
                the system that is less than optimal, you have to discount the .176
                figure by that proportion.

                Again, from the NREL review's executive summary:

                quote:
                ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                The common thread among the studies showing increased oil production
                under stress seems to be the observed cessation of cell division.
                While the rate of production of all cell components is lower under
                nutrient starvation, oil production seems to remain higher, leading
                to an accumulation of oil in the cells. The increased oil content of
                the algae does not to lead to increased overall productivity of oil.
                In fact, overall rates of oil production are lower during periods of
                nutrient deficiency. Higher levels of oil in the cells are more than
                offset by lower rates of cell growth.
                ------------------------------------------------------------------------



                The 60% lipid figure I used was for what they thought was achievable at
                the 50gm_dry_algae/(m^2*day) productivity goal. I couldn't find a study
                that showed that actual level of productivity at that high percentage
                oil content so this remains a feasible and not yet demonstrated goal for
                oil content of high productivity algae systems.

                Redoing the units calculation previously used to derive $/(acre*month)
                and gal/(yard^2*month) yields, this time to derive liters of pressed oil
                per acre per year:

                50gm_algae/(m^2*day); .8gm_oil/cm^3; .6gm_prepressed_oil/gm_algae;
                .7gm_oil/gm_prepressed_oil?liter/(acre*year)

                = 38,773.9 liter/(acre*year)

                In other words, under the optimistic conditions I previously described
                you might get something like 5 times as much productivity as Algaeman
                recalls.

                If the 50gm_algae/(m^2*day) is pessimistic for an enclosed system, I'd
                really appreciate seeing see some references to some work that
                demonstrated such high rates of growth that didn't rely on inordinate
                amounts of electical energy for lighting a photobioreactor-equivalent.

                A calculation can be of the correct form but if the inputs are incorrect
                the output is garbage. I most certainly hope the 50gm figure is as low
                as some are claiming but I have to remain skeptical for the obvious reasons.


                PS: Calchemy's Unicalc is a really useful tool for engineering or any
                real-world work. There used to be an online version of it working at:

                http://www.calchemy.com/uclive.htm

                But I find its frequently broken. What I use is a version for Windows
                that they no longer sell online but if you email:

                IWantCalchemyForWindows@...
                <mailto:IWantCalchemyForWindows@...>

                you might talk them into selling you a copy. I don't recall what I paid
                but it wasn't expensive and I do use it quite a bit.

                Running another calculation based on the approximately $5000 Ecogenics
                system, which claims 10lbs of wet algae per day coming out of its closed
                loop ecosystem with its 18ft by 60ft pond:

                10lb/(18ft*60ft*day)?gm/(m^2*day)

                = 45.2076 gm/(m^2*day)

                This is 45 wet grams.

                Therefore it is plausible Ecogenics is claiming about half the
                productivity level sought by the studies reviewed by NREL, depending on
                how much the weight of the algae reduces after drying.

                Therefore, my prior calculations appear to hold true for the Ecogenics
                system within about a factor of 2 -- but remember this is for spirulina
                -- not a high-oil-content species of algae. The problem of getting
                consistently high oil content in the algae while sustaining even this
                level of productivity has yet to be solved.

                Now, what can we realistically expect from an optimal home
                algae-biodiesel system?

                Assuming the optimistic 60% lipid content algae alluded to by the NREL
                report, and the goal of 50gm/(m^2*day), it looks like an acre can supply
                the transportation fuel for 6 or 7 adults at the average US consumption
                rates.

                Let's be a bit more optimistic and say people likely to do this are
                going to have lower transportation fuel requirements than the average US
                adult so you can support, say, 10 adults off an acre.

                An interesting option opens up:

                How about 4 families occupying a quadraplex, 80 yards on a side, with a
                1 acre climate controlled court yard for the ponds, gardens and
                recreation area?

                You have just combined some of the cost of climate controlling your
                residence with that of the enclosure and provided a potential "tropical
                paradise" for the residents. The houses themselves can be a lot less
                expensive -- conceivably just suspension structures, with little or no
                insulation, hung from the support members of the enclosures.

                The median price of a home in the US is around $170,000 so you have
                about a half million dollars to make the thing work.

                Well this is where I've come up with a wild idea -- an algae-water
                slurry fueled diesel engine.

                It may become relevant today if someone wants to go to the trouble of
                getting another kind of engine running. There are operational coal-water
                slurry desiel engines. Adding water to a combustion mix frequently had
                less effect on the specific energy than one would think due to
                combustion efficiency. The combustion products are frequently of a lower
                energy state and hence not only less polluting but also yield more work.

                For an idea of what this means, let's redo the "4 family" calculation
                again assuming they can burn algae-water slurry in their engines. Since
                I'm being exhorbitant in presuming the workability of such an engine
                I'll be conservative in my estimate of the algae-water slurry production
                rate and say we get only 30gm of algae-water slurry fuel per square
                meter per day. Let's further say our special quadraplex households each
                need 3 gallons of diesel fuel per day:

                30gm/(m^2*day);3gal/(household*day);1gm/cm^3?acre/(4*household)

                = 0.374158 acre/(4*household)

                Or a quadraplex that is about 50 yards on a side.

                Building this quadraplex is still a stretch, even for $500k, but not as
                much of one as the 80 yard quadraplex. Moreover the production rates are
                demonstrated (albiet for the heated environments I posited).
              • James A. Bowery
                My calculations are meant to provide rational discourse about the oil from algae idea. To some they may be discouraging but I would say to them not to be put
                Message 7 of 15 , Dec 7, 2004
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                  My calculations are meant to provide rational discourse about the oil
                  from algae idea.

                  To some they may be discouraging but I would say to them not to be put
                  off from the general idea.

                  In order of importance, the areas that bear research are:

                  1) Using the oil-depleted press algae cakes as protein feedstock for
                  agricultural uses. Principle among these might be tilapia production.
                  2) Methods of increasing per-area algae yields.
                  3) Sale of algae-oil to the nutraceuticals market for cash to support
                  the above 2.

                  #2 can be conducted at _very_ small scales. #1 can be conducted at a
                  small scale. #3 can be conducted at a moderate scale.

                  In time order, I can see a reasonable, low-risk plan consisting of
                  conducting on-going research into higher per-area algae production while:

                  1) Growing algae for your own omega-3 nutraceutical consumption --
                  probably using cold-press to extract it from some moderately oil-rich algae.
                  2) Feeding the omega-3 depleted algae cakes to algae-grazing fish for
                  your own table and for friends.
                  3) Growing 1 and 2 to the point that you can sell some of the fish and
                  give some of the omega-3 oil to your friends.
                  4) Entering the omega-3 nutraceuticals market.
                  5) Building a greenhouse for the above operation (if you are in a
                  temperate, as opposed to subtropical, climate you should consider
                  obtaining land with a geothermal source).
                  6) Growing other fruits and vegetables within the greenhouse.
                  7) Expand the greenhouse operation with friends and neighbors.

                  At some point it may make sense to construct a 1 acre "ecocondo" to
                  produce enough oil and food for transportation and nutritional
                  self-sufficiency for 4 or more families. Even if the diesel idea fails
                  he worst you'll probably end up with food self-sufficiency and an
                  attractive climate-controlled space within which you can spend much of
                  your time or perhaps reside.
                • patrickhaze
                  ... I read that thread carefully and I don t think it was this that ticked him off. But anyways we probably shouldn t drag that out here. ... ... So how is his
                  Message 8 of 15 , Dec 9, 2004
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                    Scotty wrote:
                    > > A guy who grows spirulina to grow fish was contributing to a
                    > > BioDiesel list, but left in a huff when someone questioned using
                    > > a species that produces to little oil. I assume we will have
                    > > the usual problems with NIH (Not Invented Here).

                    I read that thread carefully and I don't think it was this that ticked
                    him off. But anyways we probably shouldn't drag that out here.

                    Joe Pearson wrote:
                    > Yeah I was one of the guys he claimed was out of line. You can read
                    > the thread here:
                    >
                    > http://forums.biodieselnow.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3414&whichpage=2
                    >
                    > Basically, I did some arithmetic that showed about how much oil you
                    > can expect to get from ponds under optimal conditions and it looked
                    > pretty bad for his system. This seriously was _not_ an attempt on
                    > my part to attack him. Indeed, I found his tilapia production system
                    > attractive enough to spend over $200 to have him ship me the manual
                    > on it.
                    ...

                    So how is his manual? Have you received it? Is it worth it? My
                    impression is that he is an experienced algae grower. But some of the
                    pictures on his website are really low quality, and there isn't much
                    information about what he is actually selling in many cases. Maybe
                    he's good at algae and energy stuff but not at web site creation. But
                    this makes me wonder also about the quality of writing in the manual.
                  • James A. Bowery
                    ... I haven t seen the evidence yet that he can achieve the levels of productivity he claims (1lb fish per gallon every 4 months). If he can indeed pull off
                    Message 9 of 15 , Dec 10, 2004
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                      patrickhaze wrote:

                      >
                      > Scotty wrote:
                      > > > A guy who grows spirulina to grow fish was contributing to a
                      > > > BioDiesel list, but left in a huff when someone questioned using
                      > > > a species that produces to little oil. I assume we will have
                      > > > the usual problems with NIH (Not Invented Here).
                      >
                      > I read that thread carefully and I don't think it was this that ticked
                      > him off. But anyways we probably shouldn't drag that out here.
                      >
                      > Joe Pearson wrote:

                      Actually, it James Bowery (your's truly) who wrote the following:

                      > > Yeah I was one of the guys he claimed was out of line. You can read
                      > > the thread here:
                      > >
                      > > http://forums.biodieselnow.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3414&whichpage=2
                      > <http://forums.biodieselnow.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3414&whichpage=2>
                      > >
                      > > Basically, I did some arithmetic that showed about how much oil you
                      > > can expect to get from ponds under optimal conditions and it looked
                      > > pretty bad for his system. This seriously was _not_ an attempt on
                      > > my part to attack him. Indeed, I found his tilapia production system
                      > > attractive enough to spend over $200 to have him ship me the manual
                      > > on it.
                      > ...
                      >
                      > So how is his manual? Have you received it? Is it worth it?

                      I haven't seen the evidence yet that he can achieve the levels of
                      productivity he claims (1lb fish per gallon every 4 months). If he can
                      indeed pull off productivity like that in his 20*80 ft^2 greenhouse/pond
                      without continual input of feedstocks from outside, then $200 is a
                      bargain and he deserves every penny he gets.

                      Heres a correspondence:

                      --------
                      Dear Marc,

                      At http://www.earthrise.com/ERFarmBegin.html Earthrise Farms reports:

                      "Merging U.S. and Japanese innovation, technology and resources, Earthrise
                      became the world's largest spirulina farm, expanding to cover the entire 108
                      acre site, and today supplies over 40 countries with the world's best known
                      spirulina. In 1996, the farm produced nearly 500 metric tons of dry powder."

                      When I visited their farm in the Imperial Valley (intense sun and plenty of
                      warm weather) I saw at least half of the surface area was actual pond
                      surface and that they were at least 1 foot deep.

                      Doing the math with Unicalc (a units-savvy calculator), that comes out to
                      .06lbs dry mass / gallon / year. Adding a factor of 5 for wet mass that's
                      .3lbs wet mass / gallon / year, and dividing by 3 to get lbs/4 months that's
                      .1lbs wet mass / gallon / 4 months.

                      At http://www.dabney.com/ecogenics/biosphere.html your site claims 1 lb
                      fish/gallon/4 months.

                      I haven't even taken into account food chain loss and there's already a
                      factor of 10 discrepancy between the figure Earthrise quotes and the figure
                      you quote.

                      How do you account for this?

                      --------

                      Dear Jim.
                      earth rise grows spirulina algae exclusively the figure you quote for
                      ecogenics is tilapia production not spirulina production and that is after the
                      initial population of tilapia is established after nine months, and with proper
                      management our ponds are six ft deep not one ft deep as are the earthrise ponds.
                      as to spirulina, we have harvested 10 lbs per day (wet) of spirulina on the
                      algae side of the pond and that is just the spirulina that floats up on the
                      surface when the pond is not segragated and the fish inhabit the whole pond
                      naturally more spirulina is consumed by the fish. as i said the process is well
                      described in the manual. earthrise is a spirulina production company and uses
                      nutrients like sodium bicarbonate to feed thier algae, our algae feeds the fish
                      and the fish wastes are the nutrients for the algae in a process called
                      carbon biomitigation and remediation . these are two entirely different
                      approaches. to algae production and to tilapia production our approach is called " green
                      water aquaculture".
                      Marc

                      Thanks.
                    • patrickhaze
                      ... Oops sorry about that. ... greenhouse/pond ... Ok, let us know what you think of it when it arrives and you get a chance. Thanks.
                      Message 10 of 15 , Dec 10, 2004
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                        --- In oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com, "James A. Bowery"
                        <jabowery@l...> wrote:
                        > Actually, it James Bowery (your's truly) who wrote the following:
                        > > > Yeah I was one of the guys he claimed was out of line. ...

                        Oops sorry about that.

                        > > So how is his manual? Have you received it? Is it worth it?
                        >
                        > I haven't seen the evidence yet that he can achieve the levels of
                        > productivity he claims (1lb fish per gallon every 4 months). If he can
                        > indeed pull off productivity like that in his 20*80 ft^2
                        greenhouse/pond
                        > without continual input of feedstocks from outside, then $200 is a
                        > bargain and he deserves every penny he gets.

                        Ok, let us know what you think of it when it arrives and you get a
                        chance. Thanks.
                      • James A. Bowery
                        ... I received the manual over a year ago and the correspondence with Cardoso was after I had received the manual. I d say about 10% of the manual is stuff is
                        Message 11 of 15 , Dec 10, 2004
                        • 0 Attachment
                          patrickhaze wrote:

                          >
                          > --- In oil_from_algae@yahoogroups.com, "James A. Bowery"
                          > If he can
                          > > indeed pull off productivity like that in his 20*80 ft^2
                          > greenhouse/pond
                          > > without continual input of feedstocks from outside, then $200 is a
                          > > bargain and he deserves every penny he gets.
                          >
                          > Ok, let us know what you think of it when it arrives and you get a
                          > chance. Thanks.

                          I received the manual over a year ago and the correspondence with
                          Cardoso was after I had received the manual.

                          I'd say about 10% of the manual is stuff is Ecogenics-written, about
                          half of that is financial projections and the rest is compiled articles
                          from various sources on the general topic of algae and tilapia. It's
                          not really a recipe, which is what I was expecting but it does have some
                          information that would go into a recipe, although I'm not sure you
                          couldn't find the stuff elsewhere with ease. The main thing he provides
                          of "value" is the design and construction of the greenhouse/pond and I
                          think those directions, while somewhat sketchy, are adequate to actually
                          reproduce what he built with some consulting from him -- which he does
                          say is part of the package deal.

                          As to whether the "value" is real or not -- I just don't know. His pond
                          was out of commission when I bought the manual -- something I learned
                          after buying it. He says its back in commission or going to be back in
                          commission by spring and ready for tours at full production.

                          I repeat -- his claims appear extraordinary and I already gave the
                          reason they appear extraordinary based on Earthrise's productivity
                          levels in a much warmer and sunnier environment.
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