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Re: [oaxacastudyactiongroup] Asesinan en Oaxaca a jefe policiaco acusado de represor Police chief mu

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  • Nancy Davies
    To clarify, in Oaxaca private means non governmental. These forces are closely allied with the government, but they are actually bank and finance guards
    Message 1 of 8 , Feb 1 11:48 AM
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      To clarify, in Oaxaca "private" means non governmental. These forces are closely allied with the government, but they are actually bank and finance guards -i.e., not guarding the people (do police ever?) but assigned to guard private institutions. This particular man, Barrita, was implicated in doing the government's dirty work, for example,  he kicked the brains out of Erengelio Merino Cruz on July 17. In fact he did so much dirty work, and directed so many operations  (against the barricades, against civilians and the APPO, running gangs of thugs, violating human rights, etc) for the government, that some people are saying his murder was an act of vengeance perpetrated by the the EPR. On the other hand, Noticias says it looks like the government is faking an EPR slogan to make it look like it was guerrillas - bad news for militarizing the state.
      But nobody really knows. My bias of course is that it wasn't rhe APPO -they have nothing to gain, and it wasn't the EPR either, which leaves the narcogangs, and suggests to me that Barrita was heavily involved with narcotics running. JUST SPECULATION; we'll have to wait for more info. But murders are happening every week, often with torture, coup de grace shots in the head,  and burning of the bodies. This must be drug stuff, and one theory is that Calderon and Fox before him let it go too long and now the narco gangs are too well entrenched to give up easily.  Police are often involved as victims, and I doubt it's 'cause they carry out great investigations.
      On the other hand, vengeance would be justified, and many people think it is just that, especially since total impunity reigns, and there will be no state justice -at least not any time soon..

      On Jan 31, 2008 10:39 PM, Richard Grabman <richmx2@...> wrote:


      What do you mean by "private police force"?  Is this guy -- or, rather WAS this guy -- a security guard of some kind, or are you suggesting he had an official capacity of some kind, and was a "consultant" rather than a civil servant? 




      --- On Thu 01/31, Nancy Davies < nmsdavies@... > wrote:

      From: Nancy Davies [mailto: nmsdavies@...]
      To: oaxacastudyactiongroup@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 15:01:30 -0600
      Subject: [oaxacastudyactiongroup] Asesinan en Oaxaca a jefe policiaco acusado de represor Police chief murdered














      Four people were assassinated with high caliber weapons in Oaxaca on the morning of January 30. The four dead are first, the chief of PABIC (the private police force) Barrita, much hated by the APPO for his part in the repression. Nine bullets in his body, he was the target. The second was his police bodyguard. The next two ( a man, and a woman sports activist) were innocent bystanders out for morning exercise in the park, and I beleive a fifth person was wounded.
      The reports are being very careful not to assign blame yet. The possibilities are "organized crime", i.e. narcotrafficking, which to my thinking does not mean Barrita was fighting crime but was probably involved in it; the second possibility is the APPO which I don't beleive and which they have denied, because of their pacific stance; a third is the EPR or other civilian guerrillas.
      Mexico is not in good shape and the possibility is that Calderon's "war on drugs" is causing organized retaliation. Equally plausible is that guerrilla style activists are fed up the the teeth--too much impunity for Barrita, too many refusals to free Flavio Sosa (the judge who just re-condemned him is part of the governor's family --I'm not sure on this but I think her husband is his cousin, or some such, I can check on it), and of course David Venegas is not free either. Meanwhile the human rights organizations are seeking info --and cautioning against a wholesale witch hunt against the APPO.

      Please excuse this very sketchy bulletin, I will try (and hopefully others) to get more solid info out. This is not the first police officer shot this week, as Luc wrote yesterday









      Asesinan en Oaxaca a jefe policiaco acusado de represor

      Versiones difundidas en estaciones de radio locales culparon a la APPO y al EPR


      El occiso participó en el conflicto social de 2006















    • Richard Grabman
      Thanks, Nancy.  Your first post suggested you were talking about seguridad privada -- rent a cops -- or, in this case, hired guns.  Policia industrial --
      Message 2 of 8 , Feb 1 6:44 PM
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        Thanks, Nancy.� Your first post suggested you were talking about "seguridad privada" -- "rent a cops" -- or, in this case, hired guns.� Policia industrial -- or the equalivalent (my familiarity is with DF, not Oaxaca) are civil servants, even if their posts and duties are for the benefit of private concerns (but, then, where do police anywhere on the planet NOT defend the status quo against thehoi polloi?).�

        Killing a private security company official is a very different matter than killing a police official -- even when the police official is a sleaze-bag.� Of course there is going to be political fallout, and of course -- given what you've alleged -- the APPO are going to be prime suspects.� Everywhere in the world, and not just Oaxaca, when a police official is killed, the state reponds with a heavy hand.�

        I tend to agree that the ERP is largely a myth, and a convenient excuse for justifying government repression.� From your description of events, some connection to the APPO sounds perfectly plausible.�






        --- On Fri 02/01, Nancy Davies < nmsdavies@... > wrote:
        From: Nancy Davies [mailto: nmsdavies@...]
        To: oaxacastudyactiongroup@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 13:48:55 -0600
        Subject: Re: [oaxacastudyactiongroup] Asesinan en Oaxaca a jefe policiaco acusado de represor Police chief mu














        To clarify, in Oaxaca "private" means non governmental. These forces are closely allied with the government, but they are actually bank and finance guards -i.e., not guarding the people (do police ever?) but assigned to guard private institutions. This particular man, Barrita, was implicated in doing the government's dirty work, for example, he kicked the brains out of Erengelio Merino Cruz on July 17. In fact he did so much dirty work, and directed so many operations (against the barricades, against civilians and the APPO, running gangs of thugs, violating human rights, etc) for the government, that some people are saying his murder was an act of vengeance perpetrated by the the EPR. On the other hand, Noticias says it looks like the government is faking an EPR slogan to make it look like it was guerrillas - bad news for militarizing the state.
        But nobody really knows. My bias of course is that it wasn't rhe APPO -they have nothing to gain, and it wasn't the EPR either, which leaves the narcogangs, and suggests to me that Barrita was heavily involved with narcotics running. JUST SPECULATION; we'll have to wait for more info. But murders are happening every week, often with torture, coup de grace shots in the head, and burning of the bodies. This must be drug stuff, and one theory is that Calderon and Fox before him let it go too long and now the narco gangs are too well entrenched to give up easily. Police are often involved as victims, and I doubt it's 'cause they carry out great investigations.
        On the other hand, vengeance would be justified, and many people think it is just that, especially since total impunity reigns, and there will be no state justice -at least not any time soon..


        On Jan 31, 2008 10:39 PM, Richard Grabman <richmx2@excite. com> wrote:




















        What do you mean by "private police force"? Is this guy -- or, rather WAS this guy -- a security guard of some kind, or are you suggesting he had an official capacity of some kind, and was a "consultant" rather than a civil servant?




        --- On Thu 01/31, Nancy Davies < nmsdavies@gmail. com > wrote:

        From: Nancy Davies [mailto: nmsdavies@gmail. com]
        To: oaxacastudyactiongr oup@yahoogroups. com
        Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 15:01:30 -0600
        Subject: [oaxacastudyactiong roup] Asesinan en Oaxaca a jefe policiaco acusado de represor Police chief murdered














        Four people were assassinated with high caliber weapons in Oaxaca on the morning of January 30. The four dead are first, the chief of PABIC (the private police force) Barrita, much hated by the APPO for his part in the repression. Nine bullets in his body, he was the target. The second was his police bodyguard. The next two ( a man, and a woman sports activist) were innocent bystanders out for morning exercise in the park, and I beleive a fifth person was wounded.
        The reports are being very careful not to assign blame yet. The possibilities are "organized crime", i.e. narcotrafficking, which to my thinking does not mean Barrita was fighting crime but was probably involved in it; the second possibility is the APPO which I don't beleive and which they have denied, because of their pacific stance; a third is the EPR or other civilian
        guerrillas.
        Mexico is not in good shape and the possibility is that Calderon's "war on drugs" is causing organized retaliation. Equally plausible is that guerrilla style activists are fed up the the teeth--too much impunity for Barrita, too many refusals to free Flavio Sosa (the judge who just re-condemned him is part of the governor's family --I'm not sure on this but I think her husband is his cousin, or some such, I can check on it), and of course David Venegas is not free either. Meanwhile the human rights organizations are seeking info --and cautioning against a wholesale witch hunt against the APPO.

        Please excuse this very sketchy bulletin, I will try (and hopefully others) to get more solid info out. This is not the first police officer shot this week, as Luc wrote yesterday










        Asesinan en Oaxaca a jefe policiaco acusado de represor

        Versiones difundidas en estaciones de radio locales culparon a la APPO y al EPR



        El occiso particip� en el conflicto social de 2006










































        Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
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      • Bob Stout
        The bank police are trained police, part of the law enforcement system. Individual businesses pay the government, state or municipal, for their services. In
        Message 3 of 8 , Feb 4 8:46 AM
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               The bank police are trained police, part of the law enforcement system. Individual businesses pay the government, state or municipal, for their services. In Oaxaca they participated in the June bust up of the Section 22 sit in, various actions in October and November, and the November 25th assault.

          Richard Grabman <richmx2@...> wrote:
          Thanks, Nancy.  Your first post suggested you were talking about "seguridad privada" -- "rent a cops" -- or, in this case, hired guns.  Policia industrial -- or the equalivalent (my familiarity is with DF, not Oaxaca) are civil servants, even if their posts and duties are for the benefit of private concerns (but, then, where do police anywhere on the planet NOT defend the status quo against thehoi polloi?). 

          Killing a private security company official is a very different matter than killing a police official -- even when the police official is a sleaze-bag.  Of course there is going to be political fallout, and of course -- given what you've alleged -- the APPO are going to be prime suspects.  Everywhere in the world, and not just Oaxaca, when a police official is killed, the state reponds with a heavy hand. 

          I tend to agree that the ERP is largely a myth, and a convenient excuse for justifying government repression.  From your description of events, some connection to the APPO sounds perfectly plausible. 

           




          --- On Fri 02/01, Nancy Davies < nmsdavies@... > wrote:
          From: Nancy Davies [mailto: nmsdavies@...]
          To: oaxacastudyactiongroup@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 13:48:55 -0600
          Subject: Re: [oaxacastudyactiongroup] Asesinan en Oaxaca a jefe policiaco acusado de represor Police chief mu














          To clarify, in Oaxaca "private" means non governmental. These forces are closely allied with the government, but they are actually bank and finance guards -i.e., not guarding the people (do police ever?) but assigned to guard private institutions. This particular man, Barrita, was implicated in doing the government's dirty work, for example, he kicked the brains out of Erengelio Merino Cruz on July 17. In fact he did so much dirty work, and directed so many operations (against the barricades, against civilians and the APPO, running gangs of thugs, violating human rights, etc) for the government, that some people are saying his murder was an act of vengeance perpetrated by the the EPR. On the other hand, Noticias says it looks like the government is faking an EPR slogan to make it look like it was guerrillas - bad news for militarizing the state.
          But nobody really knows. My bias of course is that it wasn't rhe APPO -they have nothing to gain, and it wasn't the EPR either, which leaves the narcogangs, and suggests to me that Barrita was heavily involved with narcotics running. JUST SPECULATION; we'll have to wait for more info. But murders are happening every week, often with torture, coup de grace shots in the head, and burning of the bodies. This must be drug stuff, and one theory is that Calderon and Fox before him let it go too long and now the narco gangs are too well entrenched to give up easily. Police are often involved as victims, and I doubt it's 'cause they carry out great investigations.
          On the other hand, vengeance would be justified, and many people think it is just that, especially since total impunity reigns, and there will be no state justice -at least not any time soon..


          On Jan 31, 2008 10:39 PM, Richard Grabman <richmx2@excite. com> wrote:




















          What do you mean by "private police force"? Is this guy -- or, rather WAS this guy -- a security guard of some kind, or are you suggesting he had an official capacity of some kind, and was a "consultant" rather than a civil servant?




          --- On Thu 01/31, Nancy Davies < nmsdavies@gmail. com > wrote:
          From: Nancy Davies [mailto: nmsdavies@gmail. com]
          To: oaxacastudyactiongr oup@yahoogroups. com
          Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 15:01:30 -0600
          Subject: [oaxacastudyactiong roup] Asesinan en Oaxaca a jefe policiaco acusado de represor Police chief murdered














          Four people were assassinated with high caliber weapons in Oaxaca on the morning of January 30. The four dead are first, the chief of PABIC (the private police force) Barrita, much hated by the APPO for his part in the repression. Nine bullets in his body, he was the target. The second was his police bodyguard. The next two ( a man, and a woman sports activist) were innocent bystanders out for morning exercise in the park, and I beleive a fifth person was wounded.
          The reports are being very careful not to assign blame yet. The possibilities are "organized crime", i.e. narcotrafficking, which to my thinking does not mean Barrita was fighting crime but was probably involved in it; the second possibility is the APPO which I don't beleive and which they have denied, because of their pacific stance; a third is the EPR or other civilian
          guerrillas.
          Mexico is not in good shape and the possibility is that Calderon's "war on drugs" is causing organized retaliation. Equally plausible is that guerrilla style activists are fed up the the teeth--too much impunity for Barrita, too many refusals to free Flavio Sosa (the judge who just re-condemned him is part of the governor's family --I'm not sure on this but I think her husband is his cousin, or some such, I can check on it), and of course David Venegas is not free either. Meanwhile the human rights organizations are seeking info --and cautioning against a wholesale witch hunt against the APPO.

          Please excuse this very sketchy bulletin, I will try (and hopefully others) to get more solid info out. This is not the first police officer shot this week, as Luc wrote yesterday









          Asesinan en Oaxaca a jefe policiaco acusado de represor

          Versiones difundidas en estaciones de radio locales culparon a la APPO y al EPR


          El occiso participó en el conflicto social de 2006









































          Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
          The most personalized portal on the Web!


          Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

        • chesley k. hulsey
          We are all guessing, so I will put in my two cents worth from my tiny forensics expertise. 9 bullets indicate extreme rage. Overkill is always (almost) done
          Message 4 of 8 , Feb 5 9:35 AM
          • 0 Attachment
            We are all guessing, so I will put in my two cents worth from my tiny forensics expertise.  9 bullets indicate extreme rage.  Overkill is always (almost) done by someone who knew the person and had a huge score to settle with them.  Does not sound like APPO, nor to me does it sound like drug trafficers...so that leaves us still guessing. professional hit men never shoot 9 times.

            Nancy Davies <nmsdavies@...> wrote:
            To clarify, in Oaxaca "private" means non governmental. These forces are closely allied with the government, but they are actually bank and finance guards -i.e., not guarding the people (do police ever?) but assigned to guard private institutions. This particular man, Barrita, was implicated in doing the government's dirty work, for example,  he kicked the brains out of Erengelio Merino Cruz on July 17. In fact he did so much dirty work, and directed so many operations  (against the barricades, against civilians and the APPO, running gangs of thugs, violating human rights, etc) for the government, that some people are saying his murder was an act of vengeance perpetrated by the the EPR. On the other hand, Noticias says it looks like the government is faking an EPR slogan to make it look like it was guerrillas - bad news for militarizing the state.
            But nobody really knows. My bias of course is that it wasn't rhe APPO -they have nothing to gain, and it wasn't the EPR either, which leaves the narcogangs, and suggests to me that Barrita was heavily involved with narcotics running. JUST SPECULATION; we'll have to wait for more info. But murders are happening every week, often with torture, coup de grace shots in the head,  and burning of the bodies. This must be drug stuff, and one theory is that Calderon and Fox before him let it go too long and now the narco gangs are too well entrenched to give up easily.  Police are often involved as victims, and I doubt it's 'cause they carry out great investigations.
            On the other hand, vengeance would be justified, and many people think it is just that, especially since total impunity reigns, and there will be no state justice -at least not any time soon..

            On Jan 31, 2008 10:39 PM, Richard Grabman <richmx2@excite. com> wrote:

            What do you mean by "private police force"?  Is this guy -- or, rather WAS this guy -- a security guard of some kind, or are you suggesting he had an official capacity of some kind, and was a "consultant" rather than a civil servant? 




            --- On Thu 01/31, Nancy Davies < nmsdavies@gmail. com > wrote:
            From: Nancy Davies [mailto: nmsdavies@gmail. com]
            To: oaxacastudyactiongr oup@yahoogroups. com
            Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 15:01:30 -0600
            Subject: [oaxacastudyactiong roup] Asesinan en Oaxaca a jefe policiaco acusado de represor Police chief murdered














            Four people were assassinated with high caliber weapons in Oaxaca on the morning of January 30. The four dead are first, the chief of PABIC (the private police force) Barrita, much hated by the APPO for his part in the repression. Nine bullets in his body, he was the target. The second was his police bodyguard. The next two ( a man, and a woman sports activist) were innocent bystanders out for morning exercise in the park, and I beleive a fifth person was wounded.
            The reports are being very careful not to assign blame yet. The possibilities are "organized crime", i.e. narcotrafficking, which to my thinking does not mean Barrita was fighting crime but was probably involved in it; the second possibility is the APPO which I don't beleive and which they have denied, because of their pacific stance; a third is the EPR or other civilian guerrillas.
            Mexico is not in good shape and the possibility is that Calderon's "war on drugs" is causing organized retaliation. Equally plausible is that guerrilla style activists are fed up the the teeth--too much impunity for Barrita, too many refusals to free Flavio Sosa (the judge who just re-condemned him is part of the governor's family --I'm not sure on this but I think her husband is his cousin, or some such, I can check on it), and of course David Venegas is not free either. Meanwhile the human rights organizations are seeking info --and cautioning against a wholesale witch hunt against the APPO.

            Please excuse this very sketchy bulletin, I will try (and hopefully others) to get more solid info out. This is not the first police officer shot this week, as Luc wrote yesterday








            Asesinan en Oaxaca a jefe policiaco acusado de represor

            Versiones difundidas en estaciones de radio locales culparon a la APPO y al EPR

            El occiso participó en el conflicto social de 2006

















            Abrazos,

            K.


            Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

          • quardus
            Ulises hiumself said he had indications it were Zeta´s (or alike). Ofcourse he isn t saying it probably was no APPO related, because he likes it when people
            Message 5 of 8 , Feb 6 10:41 AM
            • 0 Attachment
              Ulises hiumself said he had indications it were Zeta´s (or alike).
              Ofcourse he isn't saying it probably was no APPO related, because he
              likes it when people make the non-existing connection Zetas-APPO.

              So Zeta´s and/or drugrelated?

              Also the amount of bullets fired and the many killed and wounded
              bystanders. Doesn't sound like principal revolutionerios who
              normally do care about innocent bystanders.

              Then the neighburs told that one day before they notified luxury
              cars with polaroid glass, they´d nevber seen before. That type of
              cars also is not an indication for mostly poor revolutionars.

              http://noticias-oax.com.mx/articulos.php?
              id_sec=12&id_art=59839&id_ejemplar=1679
              "...Trascendió que desde unas 24 horas antes de la múltiple
              ejecución, vecinos de Santa Cruz Xoxocotlán notaron en las
              principales calles del lugar la presencia sospechosa de sujetos
              desconocidos a bordo de potentes camionetas de lujo y con los
              vidrios polarizados..."

              --- In oaxacastudyactiongroup@yahoogroups.com, "chesley k. hulsey"
              <tillery2452@...> wrote:
              >
              > We are all guessing, so I will put in my two cents worth from my
              tiny forensics expertise. 9 bullets indicate extreme rage.
              Overkill is always (almost) done by someone who knew the person and
              had a huge score to settle with them. Does not sound like APPO, nor
              to me does it sound like drug trafficers...so that leaves us still
              guessing. professional hit men never shoot 9 times.
              >
              > Nancy Davies <nmsdavies@...> wrote: To clarify, in
              Oaxaca "private" means non governmental. These forces are closely
              allied with the government, but they are actually bank and finance
              guards -i.e., not guarding the people (do police ever?) but assigned
              to guard private institutions. This particular man, Barrita, was
              implicated in doing the government's dirty work, for example, he
              kicked the brains out of Erengelio Merino Cruz on July 17. In fact
              he did so much dirty work, and directed so many operations (against
              the barricades, against civilians and the APPO, running gangs of
              thugs, violating human rights, etc) for the government, that some
              people are saying his murder was an act of vengeance perpetrated by
              the the EPR. On the other hand, Noticias says it looks like the
              government is faking an EPR slogan to make it look like it was
              guerrillas - bad news for militarizing the state.
              > But nobody really knows. My bias of course is that it wasn't rhe
              APPO -they have nothing to gain, and it wasn't the EPR either, which
              leaves the narcogangs, and suggests to me that Barrita was heavily
              involved with narcotics running. JUST SPECULATION; we'll have to
              wait for more info. But murders are happening every week, often with
              torture, coup de grace shots in the head, and burning of the
              bodies. This must be drug stuff, and one theory is that Calderon and
              Fox before him let it go too long and now the narco gangs are too
              well entrenched to give up easily. Police are often involved as
              victims, and I doubt it's 'cause they carry out great
              investigations.
              > On the other hand, vengeance would be justified, and many people
              think it is just that, especially since total impunity reigns, and
              there will be no state justice -at least not any time soon..
              >
              > On Jan 31, 2008 10:39 PM, Richard Grabman <richmx2@...> wrote:
              >
              > What do you mean by "private police force"? Is this guy -- or,
              rather WAS this guy -- a security guard of some kind, or are you
              suggesting he had an official capacity of some kind, and was
              a "consultant" rather than a civil servant?
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > --- On Thu 01/31, Nancy Davies < nmsdavies@... > wrote:
              >
              > From: Nancy Davies [mailto: nmsdavies@...]
              > To: oaxacastudyactiongroup@yahoogroups.com
              > Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 15:01:30 -0600
              > Subject: [oaxacastudyactiongroup] Asesinan en Oaxaca a jefe
              policiaco acusado de represor Police chief murdered
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Four people were assassinated with high caliber weapons in
              Oaxaca on the morning of January 30. The four dead are first, the
              chief of PABIC (the private police force) Barrita, much hated by the
              APPO for his part in the repression. Nine bullets in his body, he
              was the target. The second was his police bodyguard. The next two (
              a man, and a woman sports activist) were innocent bystanders out for
              morning exercise in the park, and I beleive a fifth person was
              wounded.
              > The reports are being very careful not to assign blame yet. The
              possibilities are "organized crime", i.e. narcotrafficking, which to
              my thinking does not mean Barrita was fighting crime but was
              probably involved in it; the second possibility is the APPO which I
              don't beleive and which they have denied, because of their pacific
              stance; a third is the EPR or other civilian guerrillas.
              > Mexico is not in good shape and the possibility is that
              Calderon's "war on drugs" is causing organized retaliation. Equally
              plausible is that guerrilla style activists are fed up the the teeth-
              -too much impunity for Barrita, too many refusals to free Flavio
              Sosa (the judge who just re-condemned him is part of the governor's
              family --I'm not sure on this but I think her husband is his cousin,
              or some such, I can check on it), and of course David Venegas is not
              free either. Meanwhile the human rights organizations are seeking
              info --and cautioning against a wholesale witch hunt against the
              APPO.
              >
              > Please excuse this very sketchy bulletin, I will try (and
              hopefully others) to get more solid info out. This is not the first
              police officer shot this week, as Luc wrote yesterday
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > La Jornada jueves 31 de enero de 2008
              >
              >
              >
              > http://www.jornada.unam.mx/2008/01/31/index.php?
              section=politica&article=003n1pol
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Asesinan en Oaxaca a jefe policiaco acusado de represor
              >
              > Versiones difundidas en estaciones de radio locales culparon a
              la APPO y al EPR
              >
              > El occiso participó en el conflicto social de 2006
            • Richard Grabman
              Quardas writes:Also the amount of bullets fired and the many killed and wounded bystanders. Doesn t sound like principal revolutionerios who normally do care
              Message 6 of 8 , Feb 6 9:29 PM
              • 0 Attachment
                "Quardas" writes:
                Also the amount of bullets fired and the many killed and wounded
                bystanders. Doesn't sound like principal revolutionerios who
                normally do care about innocent bystanders.

                The regulars here claim the "revolutionerios" are non-violent. Is there a track record of revolutionary violence in Mexico to justify your claim that revolutionaries would be professionarl enough hitmen to not take out bystanders? Political violence usually assumes you have to break a few eggs to make an omlette, and that bystanders are "collateral damage."

                The Zetas, and most Mexican hitmen are professionals. They normally don't do their killing in public (except in shootouts with the police) and generally aren't known to take out "non combattants" -- one reason "drug-related violence" isn't nearly the problem in Mexico that it is in the United States and Europe.

                Please clarify.





                --- On Wed 02/06, quardus < markmetzelaar@... > wrote:

                From: quardus [mailto: markmetzelaar@...]
                To: oaxacastudyactiongroup@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2008 18:41:14 -0000
                Subject: [oaxacastudyactiongroup] Who/Quien?; Re: Asesinan en Oaxaca a jefe policiaco acusado de represor Police

                Ulises hiumself said he had indications it were Zeta�s (or alike).
                Ofcourse he isn't saying it probably was no APPO related, because he
                likes it when people make the non-existing connection Zetas-APPO.

                So Zeta�s and/or drugrelated?

                Also the amount of bullets fired and the many killed and wounded
                bystanders. Doesn't sound like principal revolutionerios who
                normally do care about innocent bystanders.

                Then the neighburs told that one day before they notified luxury
                cars with polaroid glass, they�d nevber seen before. That type of
                cars also is not an indication for mostly poor revolutionars.

                http://noticias- oax.com.mx/ articulos. php?
                id_sec=12&id_ art=59839& id_ejemplar= 1679
                "...Trascendi� que desde unas 24 horas antes de la m�ltiple
                ejecuci�n, vecinos de Santa Cruz Xoxocotl�n notaron en las
                principales calles del lugar la presencia sospechosa de sujetos
                desconocidos a bordo de potentes camionetas de lujo y con los
                vidrios polarizados. .."

                --- In oaxacastudyactiongr oup@yahoogroups. com, "chesley k. hulsey"
                ...> wrote:
                >
                > We are all guessing, so I will put in my two cents worth from my
                tiny forensics expertise. 9 bullets indicate extreme rage.
                Overkill is always (almost) done by someone who knew the person and
                had a huge score to settle with them. Does not sound like APPO, nor
                to me does it sound like drug trafficers.. .so that leaves us still
                guessing. professional hit men never shoot 9 times.
                >
                > Nancy Davies ..> wrote: To clarify, in
                Oaxaca "private" means non governmental. These forces are closely
                allied with the government, but they are actually bank and finance
                guards -i.e., not guarding the people (do police ever?) but assigned
                to guard private institutions. This particular man, Barrita, was
                implicated in doing the government's dirty work, for example, he
                kicked the brains out of Erengelio Merino Cruz on July 17. In fact
                he did so much dirty work, and directed so many operations (against
                the barricades, against civilians and the APPO, running gangs of
                thugs, violating human rights, etc) for the government, that some
                people are saying his murder was an act of vengeance perpetrated by
                the the EPR. On the other hand, Noticias says it looks like the
                government is faking an EPR slogan to make it look like it was
                guerrillas - bad news for militarizing the state.
                > But nobody really knows. My bias of course is that it wasn't rhe
                APPO -they have nothing to gain, and it wasn't the EPR either, which
                leaves the narcogangs, and suggests to me that Barrita was heavily
                involved with narcotics running. JUST SPECULATION; we'll have to
                wait for more info. But murders are happening every week, often with
                torture, coup de grace shots in the head, and burning of the
                bodies. This must be drug stuff, and one theory is that Calderon and
                Fox before him let it go too long and now the narco gangs are too
                well entrenched to give up easily. Police are often involved as
                victims, and I doubt it's 'cause they carry out great
                investigations.
                > On the other hand, vengeance would be justified, and many people
                think it is just that, especially since total impunity reigns, and
                there will be no state justice -at least not any time soon..
                >
                > On Jan 31, 2008 10:39 PM, Richard Grabman > wrote:
                >
                > What do you mean by "private police force"? Is this guy -- or,
                rather WAS this guy -- a security guard of some kind, or are you
                suggesting he had an official capacity of some kind, and was
                a "consultant" rather than a civil servant?
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > --- On Thu 01/31, Nancy Davies < nmsdavies@.. . > wrote:
                >
                > From: Nancy Davies [mailto: nmsdavies@.. .]
                > To: oaxacastudyactiongr oup@yahoogroups. com
                > Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 15:01:30 -0600
                > Subject: [oaxacastudyactiong roup] Asesinan en Oaxaca a jefe
                policiaco acusado de represor Police chief murdered
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Four people were assassinated with high caliber weapons in
                Oaxaca on the morning of January 30. The four dead are first, the
                chief of PABIC (the private police force) Barrita, much hated by the
                APPO for his part in the repression. Nine bullets in his body, he
                was the target. The second was his police bodyguard. The next two (
                a man, and a woman sports activist) were innocent bystanders out for
                morning exercise in the park, and I beleive a fifth person was
                wounded.
                > The reports are being very careful not to assign blame yet. The
                possibilities are "organized crime", i.e. narcotrafficking, which to
                my thinking does not mean Barrita was fighting crime but was
                probably involved in it; the second possibility is the APPO which I
                don't beleive and which they have denied, because of their pacific
                stance; a third is the EPR or other civilian guerrillas.
                > Mexico is not in good shape and the possibility is that
                Calderon's "war on drugs" is causing organized retaliation. Equally
                plausible is that guerrilla style activists are fed up the the teeth-
                -too much impunity for Barrita, too many refusals to free Flavio
                Sosa (the judge who just re-condemned him is part of the governor's
                family --I'm not sure on this but I think her husband is his cousin,
                or some such, I can check on it), and of course David Venegas is not
                free either. Meanwhile the human rights organizations are seeking
                info --and cautioning against a wholesale witch hunt against the
                APPO.
                >
                > Please excuse this very sketchy bulletin, I will try (and
                hopefully others) to get more solid info out. This is not the first
                police officer shot this week, as Luc wrote yesterday
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > La Jornada jueves 31 de enero de 2008
                >
                >
                >
                > http://www.jornada. unam.mx/2008/ 01/31/index. php?
                section=politica& article=003n1pol
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Asesinan en Oaxaca a jefe policiaco acusado de represor
                >
                > Versiones difundidas en estaciones de radio locales culparon a
                la APPO y al EPR
                >
                > El occiso particip� en el conflicto social de 2006



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              • quardus
                Profesionals don t hit (that much) bystanders normally... yes; think thats correct in general. But in Tijuana they killed many people who had nothing to do
                Message 7 of 8 , Feb 8 10:58 AM
                • 0 Attachment
                  Profesionals don't hit (that much) bystanders normally... yes; think
                  thats correct in general. But in Tijuana they killed many people who
                  had nothing to do with it, just to cause more distress.

                  But 'religious' revolutionarios act on their priciples and (if they
                  want to kill), like to hit the one(s) they have in mind for their
                  principles only. Look at the earlier attacks; material damage and a
                  woman died of a heart attack (if true). Collateral damgae exists
                  everywhere as possibility, so revolutionarios also could accept this
                  to some degree.

                  Maybe the whole case was to create more support for the war on drugs
                  (& APPO 'terror')? The more people are killed and wounded, the more
                  support 'they' (leaders & elite) politically get for some actions


                  --- In oaxacastudyactiongroup@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Grabman"
                  <richmx2@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > "Quardas" writes:Also the amount of bullets fired and the many
                  killed and wounded bystanders. Doesn't sound like principal
                  revolutionerios who normally do care about innocent bystanders. The
                  regulars here claim the "revolutionerios" are non-violent. Is there
                  a track record of revolutionary violence in Mexico to justify your
                  claim that revolutionaries would be professionarl enough hitmen to
                  not take out bystanders? Political violence usually assumes you have
                  to break a few eggs to make an omlette, and that bystanders
                  are "collateral damage."
                  > The Zetas, and most Mexican hitmen are professionals. They
                  normally don't do their killing in public (except in shootouts with
                  the police) and generally aren't known to take out "non combattants" -
                  - one reason "drug-related violence" isn't nearly the problem in
                  Mexico that it is in the United States and Europe.
                  > Please clarify.--- On Wed 02/06, quardus < markmetzelaar@...
                  > wrote:
                  > From: quardus [mailto: markmetzelaar@...]To:
                  oaxacastudyactiongroup@...: Wed, 06 Feb 2008 18:41:14 -0000Subject:
                  [oaxacastudyactiongroup] Who/Quien?; Re: Asesinan en Oaxaca a jefe
                  policiaco acusado de represor Police
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Ulises hiumself said he had indications it were Zeta´s (or alike).
                  Ofcourse he isn't saying it probably was no APPO related, because he
                  likes it when people make the non-existing connection Zetas-APPO.So
                  Zeta´s and/or drugrelated?Also the amount of bullets fired and the
                  many killed and wounded bystanders. Doesn't sound like principal
                  revolutionerios who normally do care about innocent bystanders. Then
                  the neighburs told that one day before they notified luxury cars with
                  polaroid glass, they´d nevber seen before. That type of cars also is
                  not an indication for mostly poor revolutionars.http://noticias-
                  oax.com.mx/articulos.php?
                  id_sec=12&id_art=59839&id_ejemplar=1679 "...Trascendió que
                  desde unas 24 horas antes de la múltiple ejecución, vecinos de Santa
                  Cruz Xoxocotlán notaron en las principales calles del lugar la
                  presencia sospechosa de sujetos desconocidos a bordo de potentes
                  camionetas de lujo y con los vidrios polarizados..."--- In
                  > oaxacastudyactiongroup@yahoogroups.com, "chesley k. hulsey"
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