Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Thinking big-picture

Expand Messages
  • t
    As a new member of this group, I d like to observe that a side effect of being part of a pathological system is that one begins to see small victories as
    Message 1 of 21 , Jun 27, 2013
      As a new member of this group, I'd like to observe that a side effect of being part of a pathological system is that one begins to see small victories as progress and to forget what a healthy system would be like.

      As a citizen and a parent with many parent friends in the rest of America, I don't understand why I have fewer rights than they do when it comes to schools.

      1. They have manageably-sized school districts. We could have one school district in each borough, completely independent from the other boroughs.

      2. They vote for a school board. Talk about accountability! Instead of voters having to consider everything to do with city life, including schools, when they vote for a mayor, they have school board members who are voted in or out every 2 years on a rolling basis and they dump failures, dead weight and corrupt losers like hot potatoes.

      3. They have a budget based on property taxes, for better or worse. If we had that in NYC, it would be better...especially considering we don't yet have borough-sized school districts. Given the astronomically high property values in Manhattan, we should have the best schools in the world. But no. We send all that money to NY State and they send it back.

      4. They have the right to vote on the budget.

      5. They have school board meetings where it is their right to speak. We have lost our constitutional rights, as "mere" citizens aren't even allowed to attend SLT meetings and parents must request permission to speak.

      6. They have a right to see the budget. I thought I saw something somewhere that said I had a right to see that budget, but it's not on the web and in the school, it was chained to the copier. I wasn't allowed to copy it "because it has salaries in there." Hello? I thought school salaries were public information? The principal refused to let me have this information.

      7. Some school districts even have transparent finances now...every CHECK that's written is on the Internet. At our local school, they had a RULE against paying for certain things with anything except cash. Now let's see...the reason for that might be....to make it easy to steal cash?

      I have been told on more than one occasion that I am "just" a parent. But that's wrong. What I am is "just" a citizen who is required to pay taxes to support schools but who is not entitled to any say in how that money is spent and not even entitled to know how that money is spent.

      Thanks for any feedback. --Vicki
    • Paul G
      There is a lot to discuss in your post but just a couple of things: SLTs include elected parent members. Other parents should not only be allowed to attend,
      Message 2 of 21 , Jun 28, 2013
        There is a lot to discuss in your post but just a couple of things:

        SLTs include elected parent members. Other parents should not only be allowed to attend, but their attendance should be encouraged -- this is how it has been in the schools my son has attended. If you have been told otherwise, complain. The schedule of SLT meetings must be posted according to the Chancellor's Regulations.

        Parents also have a right to speak at CEC and other public meetings, they just have to sign up in advance, which just means showing up 1/2 hour early.

        While it may not be sufficient detail for you, school budgets are posted online at the "School Portal" website for every public school. Go to schools.nyc.gov and search for your school's "portal" website, then click on "statistics and budget". Individual teacher salaries will not be broken out.

        You can also get to the budget overview by going to
        http://schools.nyc.gov/AboutUs/funding/schoolbudgets/
        and selecting your school from there.

        See also:
        http://schools.nyc.gov/offices/d_chanc_oper/budget/dbor/allocationmemo/fy12_13/FY13_PDF/FSF_Guide.pdf

        http://schools.nyc.gov/offices/d_chanc_oper/budget/dbor/Budget_Publication/2013_Budget_Publication/2013_Guide_to_Budget_English.pdf

        Whether you believe the various data is another story, but it's a place to begin.


        --- In nyceducationnews@yahoogroups.com, "t" <rg98765@...> wrote:
        >
        > 5. They have school board meetings where it is their right to speak. We have lost our constitutional rights, as "mere" citizens aren't even allowed to attend SLT meetings and parents must request permission to speak.
        >
        > 6. They have a right to see the budget. I thought I saw something somewhere that said I had a right to see that budget, but it's not on the web and in the school, it was chained to the copier. I wasn't allowed to copy it "because it has salaries in there." Hello? I thought school salaries were public information? The principal refused to let me have this information.
      • t
        You are repeating a widely-held misconception and might need to look up the written rules on SLTs. Parents have no right to speak at SLT meetings. ONLY SLT
        Message 3 of 21 , Jun 28, 2013
          You are repeating a widely-held misconception and might need to look up the written rules on SLTs.

          Parents have no right to speak at SLT meetings. ONLY SLT members have the right to speak. Anyone else, including and (in practice) especially parents, must be granted the privilege by way of prior permission to speak.

          When you look up the written rules, and as I learned in 2010 when I sought to discuss that year's new fad, "Kindergarten is the New First Grade Developmentally Inappropriate Kindergarten," there is no right to speak for anyone except elected SLT members. At the meeting I attended, was reminded of this before, during and after my talk.

          Parents are verbally encouraged to speak at SLT meetings and encouraged to run for the 2 or 3 (minority voting block) spots on an SLT.

          However, in real life, the meetings are intentionally held during the school day to minimize parent attendance (see the news stories from a few years back where an SLT was nailed saying outright that it didn't want any night meetings because they didn't want the "N-word" parents to attend. I think both the Post and the Daily News had the stories.)

          Unless my SLT at the time (PS 101 in Forest Hills) wrote its own rules. If so, did they simply have enough power to write rules that robbed parents of their rights and get away with it? Or did they follow procedure and have the option of writing parents out?

          I don't remember it that way. I remember looking up SLT rules and finding that parents have no right, only members, to speak.

          Fund-raisers are intentionally held at night to encourage parent participation, however.

          --Vicki

          --- In nyceducationnews@yahoogroups.com, "Paul G" <pgarrity@...> wrote:
          >
          > There is a lot to discuss in your post but just a couple of things:
          >
          > SLTs include elected parent members. Other parents should not only be allowed to attend, but their attendance should be encouraged -- this is how it has been in the schools my son has attended. If you have been told otherwise, complain. The schedule of SLT meetings must be posted according to the Chancellor's Regulations.
          >
          > Parents also have a right to speak at CEC and other public meetings, they just have to sign up in advance, which just means showing up 1/2 hour early.
          >
          > While it may not be sufficient detail for you, school budgets are posted online at the "School Portal" website for every public school. Go to schools.nyc.gov and search for your school's "portal" website, then click on "statistics and budget". Individual teacher salaries will not be broken out.
          >
          > You can also get to the budget overview by going to
          > http://schools.nyc.gov/AboutUs/funding/schoolbudgets/
          > and selecting your school from there.
          >
          > See also:
          > http://schools.nyc.gov/offices/d_chanc_oper/budget/dbor/allocationmemo/fy12_13/FY13_PDF/FSF_Guide.pdf
          >
          > http://schools.nyc.gov/offices/d_chanc_oper/budget/dbor/Budget_Publication/2013_Budget_Publication/2013_Guide_to_Budget_English.pdf
          >
          > Whether you believe the various data is another story, but it's a place to begin.
          >
          >
          > --- In nyceducationnews@yahoogroups.com, "t" <rg98765@> wrote:
          > >
          > > 5. They have school board meetings where it is their right to speak. We have lost our constitutional rights, as "mere" citizens aren't even allowed to attend SLT meetings and parents must request permission to speak.
          > >
          > > 6. They have a right to see the budget. I thought I saw something somewhere that said I had a right to see that budget, but it's not on the web and in the school, it was chained to the copier. I wasn't allowed to copy it "because it has salaries in there." Hello? I thought school salaries were public information? The principal refused to let me have this information.
          >
        • Paul G
          Here are the regulations. http://schools.nyc.gov/NR/rdonlyres/381F4607-7841-4D28-B7D5-0F30DDB77DFA/82007/A655FINAL1.pdf Who can speak at an SLT is set by the
          Message 4 of 21 , Jun 28, 2013
            Here are the regulations.
            http://schools.nyc.gov/NR/rdonlyres/381F4607-7841-4D28-B7D5-0F30DDB77DFA/82007/A655FINAL1.pdf

            Who can speak at an SLT is set by the published bylaws of individual SLTs. Are you talking to the parent SLT members outside of the meetings?

            If your SLT is not in compliance, you might try taking it up with members of the District Leadership Team.

            You might also look up the rules on how cash transactions are to be handled at schools, as it sounds like your school is in violation of that as well.

            --- In nyceducationnews@yahoogroups.com, "t" <rg98765@...> wrote:
            >
            > You are repeating a widely-held misconception and might need to look up the written rules on SLTs.
          • Leonie Haimson
            Only SLT members are allowed to see the Galaxy budget with actual staff and salaries listed. Even SLT members are sometimes denied that right by their
            Message 5 of 21 , Jun 28, 2013

              Only SLT members are allowed to see the Galaxy budget with actual staff and salaries listed.  Even SLT members are sometimes denied that right by their principals – illegally.

               

              Leonie Haimson

              Executive Director

              Class Size Matters

              124 Waverly Pl.

              New York, NY 10011

              212-674-7320

              leonie@...

              www.classsizematters.org

              http://nycpublicschoolparents.blogspot.com

               

              Follow me on twitter @leoniehaimson

               

              Make a tax-deductible contribution to Class Size Matters now!

               

              Subscribe to Class Size Matters newsletter at  http://shar.es/wNbXk

              Subscribe to NYC education list by emailing nyceducationnews-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

               

              From: nyceducationnews@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nyceducationnews@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul G
              Sent: Friday, June 28, 2013 1:47 PM
              To: nyceducationnews@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [nyceducationnews] Re: Thinking big-picture

               

               

              There is a lot to discuss in your post but just a couple of things:

              SLTs include elected parent members. Other parents should not only be allowed to attend, but their attendance should be encouraged -- this is how it has been in the schools my son has attended. If you have been told otherwise, complain. The schedule of SLT meetings must be posted according to the Chancellor's Regulations.

              Parents also have a right to speak at CEC and other public meetings, they just have to sign up in advance, which just means showing up 1/2 hour early.

              While it may not be sufficient detail for you, school budgets are posted online at the "School Portal" website for every public school. Go to schools.nyc.gov and search for your school's "portal" website, then click on "statistics and budget". Individual teacher salaries will not be broken out.

              You can also get to the budget overview by going to
              http://schools.nyc.gov/AboutUs/funding/schoolbudgets/
              and selecting your school from there.

              See also:
              http://schools.nyc.gov/offices/d_chanc_oper/budget/dbor/allocationmemo/fy12_13/FY13_PDF/FSF_Guide.pdf

              http://schools.nyc.gov/offices/d_chanc_oper/budget/dbor/Budget_Publication/2013_Budget_Publication/2013_Guide_to_Budget_English.pdf

              Whether you believe the various data is another story, but it's a place to begin.

              --- In nyceducationnews@yahoogroups.com, "t" <rg98765@...> wrote:
              >
              > 5. They have school board meetings where it is their right to speak. We have lost our constitutional rights, as "mere" citizens aren't even allowed to attend SLT meetings and parents must request permission to speak.
              >
              > 6. They have a right to see the budget. I thought I saw something somewhere that said I had a right to see that budget, but it's not on the web and in the school, it was chained to the copier. I wasn't allowed to copy it "because it has salaries in there." Hello? I thought school salaries were public information? The principal refused to let me have this information.

            • lwinds4
              It is not a minority voting block. The parent seats must equal the staff seats. The minimum is 10 seats, minus the mandatory seats of PTA president, UFT CL
              Message 6 of 21 , Jun 28, 2013
                It is not a minority voting block. The parent seats must equal the staff seats.
                The minimum is 10 seats, minus the mandatory seats of PTA president, UFT CL and principal. That leaves 4 seats for parents and 2 seats for teachers.
                 
                Laurie
                 
                In a message dated 6/28/2013 1:56:21 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rg98765@... writes:

                Parents are verbally encouraged to speak at SLT meetings and encouraged to run for the 2 or 3 (minority voting block) spots on an SLT.
              • lwinds4
                When meetings are held is up to each school s SLT to decide upon. At my high school, we decided to have the meetings in the evening where at my junior high,
                Message 7 of 21 , Jun 28, 2013
                  When meetings are held is up to each school's SLT to decide upon.
                  At my high school, we decided to have the meetings in the evening where at my junior high, we voted for the early morning. 
                   
                  Laurie
                   
                  In a message dated 6/28/2013 1:56:21 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rg98765@... writes:
                  However, in real life, the meetings are intentionally held during the school day to minimize parent attendance (see the news stories from a few years back where an SLT was nailed saying outright that it didn't want any night meetings because they didn't want the "N-word" parents to attend. I think both the Post and the Daily News had the stories.)
                • jcalant
                  Meetings must be held once a month at a time convenient for parents and other members and not during the main school hours..Any SLT meeting held during the
                  Message 8 of 21 , Jun 28, 2013
                    Meetings must be held once a month at a time convenient for parents and other members and not during the main school hours..Any SLT meeting held during the early morning is probably a sham and undermining the whole process. A monthly SLT meeting should be between two to three hours if it is truly doing its work in a collaborative fashion. An early morning meeting will probably last for an hour, maybe.


                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: lwinds <lwinds@...>
                    To: nyceducationnews <nyceducationnews@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Fri, Jun 28, 2013 2:12 pm
                    Subject: Re: [nyceducationnews] Re: Thinking big-picture

                     
                    When meetings are held is up to each school's SLT to decide upon.
                    At my high school, we decided to have the meetings in the evening where at my junior high, we voted for the early morning. 
                     
                    Laurie
                     
                    In a message dated 6/28/2013 1:56:21 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rg98765@... writes:
                    However, in real life, the meetings are intentionally held during the school day to minimize parent attendance (see the news stories from a few years back where an SLT was nailed saying outright that it didn't want any night meetings because they didn't want the "N-word" parents to attend. I think both the Post and the Daily News had the stories.)
                  • jcalant
                    While you can now see the school spending budget for 2012-2013, I believe it was posted recently. During the year, you will only view the previous year s
                    Message 9 of 21 , Jun 28, 2013
                      While you can now see the school spending budget for 2012-2013, I believe it was posted recently. During the year, you will only view the previous year's spending. For whatever irrational reasons, principals do not like to share how they have allocated school monies for spending until the school year is over.


                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Paul G <pgarrity@...>
                      To: nyceducationnews <nyceducationnews@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Fri, Jun 28, 2013 1:46 pm
                      Subject: [nyceducationnews] Re: Thinking big-picture

                       
                      There is a lot to discuss in your post but just a couple of things:

                      SLTs include elected parent members. Other parents should not only be allowed to attend, but their attendance should be encouraged -- this is how it has been in the schools my son has attended. If you have been told otherwise, complain. The schedule of SLT meetings must be posted according to the Chancellor's Regulations.

                      Parents also have a right to speak at CEC and other public meetings, they just have to sign up in advance, which just means showing up 1/2 hour early.

                      While it may not be sufficient detail for you, school budgets are posted online at the "School Portal" website for every public school. Go to schools.nyc.gov and search for your school's "portal" website, then click on "statistics and budget". Individual teacher salaries will not be broken out.

                      You can also get to the budget overview by going to
                      http://schools.nyc.gov/AboutUs/funding/schoolbudgets/
                      and selecting your school from there.

                      See also:
                      http://schools.nyc.gov/offices/d_chanc_oper/budget/dbor/allocationmemo/fy12_13/FY13_PDF/FSF_Guide.pdf

                      http://schools.nyc.gov/offices/d_chanc_oper/budget/dbor/Budget_Publication/2013_Budget_Publication/2013_Guide_to_Budget_English.pdf

                      Whether you believe the various data is another story, but it's a place to begin.

                      --- In nyceducationnews@yahoogroups.com, "t" <rg98765@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > 5. They have school board meetings where it is their right to speak. We have lost our constitutional rights, as "mere" citizens aren't even allowed to attend SLT meetings and parents must request permission to speak.
                      >
                      > 6. They have a right to see the budget. I thought I saw something somewhere that said I had a right to see that budget, but it's not on the web and in the school, it was chained to the copier. I wasn't allowed to copy it "because it has salaries in there." Hello? I thought school salaries were public information? The principal refused to let me have this information.

                    • t
                      Ten members and 4 parents sounds like a minority voting block to me. The PTA president doesn t count because they are required to serve qua PTA president, not
                      Message 10 of 21 , Jun 28, 2013
                        Ten members and 4 parents sounds like a minority voting block to me.

                        The PTA president doesn't count because they are required to serve qua PTA president, not qua parent, and PTA presidents have very tight written and unwritten controls on what they can and can't say and do and opine about. --Vicki

                        --- In nyceducationnews@yahoogroups.com, lwinds@... wrote:
                        >
                        > It is not a minority voting block. The parent seats must equal the staff
                        > seats.
                        > The minimum is 10 seats, minus the mandatory seats of PTA president, UFT
                        > CL and principal. That leaves 4 seats for parents and 2 seats for teachers.
                        >
                        > Laurie
                        >
                        >
                        > In a message dated 6/28/2013 1:56:21 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                        > rg98765@... writes:
                        >
                        >
                        > Parents are verbally encouraged to speak at SLT meetings and encouraged to
                        > run for the 2 or 3 (minority voting block) spots on an SLT.
                        >
                      • t
                        So we are in agreement on who can speak at SLT meetings... Who can speak at an SLT is set by the published bylaws of individual SLTs. We as citizens and
                        Message 11 of 21 , Jun 28, 2013
                          So we are in agreement on who can speak at SLT meetings..."Who can speak at an SLT is set by the published bylaws of individual SLTs."

                          We as citizens and parents do not have our rights respected by the process, first because we have to be granted that right by the SLT if it sees fit in the bylaws and second because my local school, as well as I'll be virtually every public school in NYC, has written into its bylaws that those who wish to speak must be granted the privilege.

                          As opposed to the rest of America, where all citizens have the unquestioned right to speak, according to Open Meetings laws and principles of democracy, at school board meetings.

                          The SLT at our local school had written into its bylaws that anyone other than SLT members who want to speak at a meeting must be granted the privilege. And if a civic-minded taxpayer who does not have a child at the school wants to attend the meeting...they are turned away at the front door, as is the press.

                          ...and I'll bet at every SLT...has likely written into its bylaws the same rule.
                          --Vicki

                          --- In nyceducationnews@yahoogroups.com, "Paul G" <pgarrity@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Here are the regulations.
                          > http://schools.nyc.gov/NR/rdonlyres/381F4607-7841-4D28-B7D5-0F30DDB77DFA/82007/A655FINAL1.pdf
                          >
                          > Who can speak at an SLT is set by the published bylaws of individual SLTs. Are you talking to the parent SLT members outside of the meetings?
                          >
                          > If your SLT is not in compliance, you might try taking it up with members of the District Leadership Team.
                          >
                          > You might also look up the rules on how cash transactions are to be handled at schools, as it sounds like your school is in violation of that as well.
                          >
                          > --- In nyceducationnews@yahoogroups.com, "t" <rg98765@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > You are repeating a widely-held misconception and might need to look up the written rules on SLTs.
                          >
                        • t
                          Thanks for the clarification -- so it s worse than I thought. First, because the Galaxy Budget is not provided to the public beyond the SLT, and it should be
                          Message 12 of 21 , Jun 28, 2013
                            Thanks for the clarification -- so it's worse than I thought. First, because the "Galaxy Budget" is not provided to the public beyond the SLT, and it should be public information.

                            Second, because I realize that I had been seeking in the past, the one chained to the copier, was not the Galaxy Budget with sensitive salary information but, apparently, the CEP with the school-based budget that apparently does not include salaries? Which the regulations say "shall be posted on the DOE's or the school's official website."? Our CEP was never posted on either; the school had said they wouldn't post it because the DOE would take care of it, but it never appeared that year (2010-2011).

                            I just did a quick search and still don't find the CEP on either the school's web site or on the DOE site.

                            Does anyone know how to find these on the DOE site? Or are they not there? Does anyone's school have it posted on their school's web site?

                            I know to some extent on this list I am preaching to the choir. I just don't think we should ever lose site of how we live in virtual poverty with our NYC schools when it comes to parent and citizen rights compared to other NY State taxpayers and citizens.
                            --Vicki
                          • t
                            Question re: Meetings must be held once a month at a time convenient for parents and other members... If that Must is in the regs, it s yet another reg
                            Message 13 of 21 , Jun 28, 2013
                              Question re: "Meetings must be held once a month at a time convenient for parents and other members..." If that "Must" is in the regs, it's yet another reg that being regularly flouted (like the law requiring gym every day for K-3).
                              Well yes, "parents and other members" at our local school was interpreted to be "other members of the SLT." What is most convenient for most principals is to have as few parents attend as possible.
                              (And by the way, I just ran across a regulation that said individuals are not discussed at SLT meetings, so there's no chance that the SLT would discuss how several adults including the principal were in the room at one of our local schools while a child has his mouth taped shut.)
                              Since the SLT included 6 people beholden to the principal at some level, what was convenient was during schools hours, overlapping pick-up by only 1/2 hour.
                              Whereas in the rest of America and New York State, our fellow taxpaying citizens could attend a school board meeting to discuss the taping of a student's mouth and behave appropriately to speak publicly about the matter.
                              In this case, appropriate behavior would be begin with banging one's shoe on the podium a la Nikita Khruschev.
                              --Vicki

                              --- In nyceducationnews@yahoogroups.com, calantjis@... wrote:
                              >
                              > Meetings must be held once a month at a time convenient for parents and other members and not during the main school hours..Any SLT meeting held during the early morning is probably a sham and undermining the whole process. A monthly SLT meeting should be between two to three hours if it is truly doing its work in a collaborative fashion. An early morning meeting will probably last for an hour, maybe.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: lwinds <lwinds@...>
                              > To: nyceducationnews <nyceducationnews@yahoogroups.com>
                              > Sent: Fri, Jun 28, 2013 2:12 pm
                              > Subject: Re: [nyceducationnews] Re: Thinking big-picture
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > When meetings are held is up to each school's SLT to decide upon.
                              > At my high school, we decided to have the meetings in the evening where at my junior high, we voted for the early morning.
                              >
                              > Laurie
                              >
                              >
                              > In a message dated 6/28/2013 1:56:21 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rg98765@... writes:
                              > However, in real life, the meetings are intentionally held during the school day to minimize parent attendance (see the news stories from a few years back where an SLT was nailed saying outright that it didn't want any night meetings because they didn't want the "N-word" parents to attend. I think both the Post and the Daily News had the stories.)
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > When meetings are held is up to each school's SLT to decide upon.
                              > At my high school, we decided to have the meetings in the evening where at my junior high, we voted for the early morning.
                              >
                              > Laurie
                              >
                              >
                              > In a message dated 6/28/2013 1:56:21 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rg98765@... writes:
                              > However, in real life, the meetings are intentionally held during the school day to minimize parent attendance (see the news stories from a few years back where an SLT was nailed saying outright that it didn't want any night meetings because they didn't want the "N-word" parents to attend. I think both the Post and the Daily News had the stories.)
                              >
                            • c_ofeb
                              Salaries can be seen on the DOE website, on each school s webpage. -c
                              Message 14 of 21 , Jun 29, 2013
                                Salaries can be seen on the DOE website, on each school's webpage.

                                -c

                                --- In nyceducationnews@yahoogroups.com, "Leonie Haimson" <leonie@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Only SLT members are allowed to see the Galaxy budget with actual staff and
                                > salaries listed. Even SLT members are sometimes denied that right by their
                                > principals - illegally.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Leonie Haimson
                                >
                                > Executive Director
                                >
                                > Class Size Matters
                                >
                                > 124 Waverly Pl.
                                >
                                > New York, NY 10011
                                >
                                > 212-674-7320
                                >
                                > leonie@... <mailto:classsizematters@...>
                                >
                                > www.classsizematters.org <http://www.classsizematters.org/>
                                >
                                > http://nycpublicschoolparents.blogspot.com
                                > <http://nycpublicschoolparents.blogspot.com/>
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > From: nyceducationnews@yahoogroups.com
                                > [mailto:nyceducationnews@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul G
                                > Sent: Friday, June 28, 2013 1:47 PM
                                > To: nyceducationnews@yahoogroups.com
                                > Subject: [nyceducationnews] Re: Thinking big-picture
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > There is a lot to discuss in your post but just a couple of things:
                                >
                                > SLTs include elected parent members. Other parents should not only be
                                > allowed to attend, but their attendance should be encouraged -- this is how
                                > it has been in the schools my son has attended. If you have been told
                                > otherwise, complain. The schedule of SLT meetings must be posted according
                                > to the Chancellor's Regulations.
                                >
                                > Parents also have a right to speak at CEC and other public meetings, they
                                > just have to sign up in advance, which just means showing up 1/2 hour early.
                                >
                                > While it may not be sufficient detail for you, school budgets are posted
                                > online at the "School Portal" website for every public school. Go to
                                > schools.nyc.gov and search for your school's "portal" website, then click on
                                > "statistics and budget". Individual teacher salaries will not be broken out.
                                >
                                > You can also get to the budget overview by going to
                                > http://schools.nyc.gov/AboutUs/funding/schoolbudgets/
                                > and selecting your school from there.
                                >
                                > See also:
                                > http://schools.nyc.gov/offices/d_chanc_oper/budget/dbor/allocationmemo/fy12_
                                > 13/FY13_PDF/FSF_Guide.pdf
                                >
                                > http://schools.nyc.gov/offices/d_chanc_oper/budget/dbor/Budget_Publication/2
                                > 013_Budget_Publication/2013_Guide_to_Budget_English.pdf
                                >
                                > Whether you believe the various data is another story, but it's a place to
                                > begin.
                                >
                                > --- In nyceducationnews@yahoogroups.com
                                > <mailto:nyceducationnews%40yahoogroups.com> , "t" <rg98765@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > 5. They have school board meetings where it is their right to speak. We
                                > have lost our constitutional rights, as "mere" citizens aren't even allowed
                                > to attend SLT meetings and parents must request permission to speak.
                                > >
                                > > 6. They have a right to see the budget. I thought I saw something
                                > somewhere that said I had a right to see that budget, but it's not on the
                                > web and in the school, it was chained to the copier. I wasn't allowed to
                                > copy it "because it has salaries in there." Hello? I thought school salaries
                                > were public information? The principal refused to let me have this
                                > information.
                                >
                              • Jane Reiff
                                Just a comment on who can speak at the SLT. As with most meetings Robert Rules come into play. You need to be recognized by the chair and the reason for this I
                                Message 15 of 21 , Jun 29, 2013
                                  Just a comment on who can speak at the SLT. As with most meetings Robert Rules come into play. You need to be recognized by the chair and the reason for this I believe is that these are working meetings and if anyone came who wanted to speak it would interfere with work that is necessary. You can also prearrange your attendance and ask beforehand to be put on the agenda.
                                  Jane
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: t
                                  Sent: Saturday, June 29, 2013 12:17 AM
                                  Subject: [nyceducationnews] Re: Thinking big-picture

                                   

                                  So we are in agreement on who can speak at SLT meetings..."Who can speak at an SLT is set by the published bylaws of individual SLTs."

                                  We as citizens and parents do not have our rights respected by the process, first because we have to be granted that right by the SLT if it sees fit in the bylaws and second because my local school, as well as I'll be virtually every public school in NYC, has written into its bylaws that those who wish to speak must be granted the privilege.

                                  As opposed to the rest of America, where all citizens have the unquestioned right to speak, according to Open Meetings laws and principles of democracy, at school board meetings.

                                  The SLT at our local school had written into its bylaws that anyone other than SLT members who want to speak at a meeting must be granted the privilege. And if a civic-minded taxpayer who does not have a child at the school wants to attend the meeting...they are turned away at the front door, as is the press.

                                  ...and I'll bet at every SLT...has likely written into its bylaws the same rule.
                                  --Vicki

                                  --- In nyceducationnews@yahoogroups.com, "Paul G" <pgarrity@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Here are the regulations.
                                  > http://schools.nyc.gov/NR/rdonlyres/381F4607-7841-4D28-B7D5-0F30DDB77DFA/82007/A655FINAL1.pdf
                                  >
                                  > Who can speak at an SLT is set by the published bylaws of individual SLTs. Are you talking to the parent SLT members outside of the meetings?
                                  >
                                  > If your SLT is not in compliance, you might try taking it up with members of the District Leadership Team.
                                  >
                                  > You might also look up the rules on how cash transactions are to be handled at schools, as it sounds like your school is in violation of that as well.
                                  >
                                  > --- In nyceducationnews@yahoogroups.com, "t" <rg98765@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > You are repeating a widely-held misconception and might need to look up the written rules on SLTs.
                                  >

                                • jcalant
                                  Go to school s web portal and click statistics (far left). Scroll down and you will see Comprehensive Educational Plan. It should be for the present school
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Jun 29, 2013
                                    Go to school's web portal and click "statistics" (far left). Scroll down and you will see Comprehensive Educational Plan. It should be for the present school year (2012-2013).


                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: t <rg98765@...>
                                    To: nyceducationnews <nyceducationnews@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Sat, Jun 29, 2013 12:33 am
                                    Subject: [nyceducationnews] Re: Thinking big-picture

                                     
                                    Thanks for the clarification -- so it's worse than I thought. First, because the "Galaxy Budget" is not provided to the public beyond the SLT, and it should be public information.

                                    Second, because I realize that I had been seeking in the past, the one chained to the copier, was not the Galaxy Budget with sensitive salary information but, apparently, the CEP with the school-based budget that apparently does not include salaries? Which the regulations say "shall be posted on the DOE's or the school's official website."? Our CEP was never posted on either; the school had said they wouldn't post it because the DOE would take care of it, but it never appeared that year (2010-2011).

                                    I just did a quick search and still don't find the CEP on either the school's web site or on the DOE site.

                                    Does anyone know how to find these on the DOE site? Or are they not there? Does anyone's school have it posted on their school's web site?

                                    I know to some extent on this list I am preaching to the choir. I just don't think we should ever lose site of how we live in virtual poverty with our NYC schools when it comes to parent and citizen rights compared to other NY State taxpayers and citizens.
                                    --Vicki

                                  • t
                                    As far as it goes, true. However, and this is a big however, when you put yourself on the agenda at an Open Meetings Law-style school board meeting, they Must
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Jun 29, 2013
                                      As far as it goes, true.

                                      However, and this is a big however, when you put yourself on the agenda at an Open Meetings Law-style school board meeting, they Must Let You Speak. The opinions and input of all citizens on Any Topic The Citizen Chooses is considered to be part of "The Work That is Necessary." I attended plenty of school board meetings in my hometown district and many bad curriculum items, many bad uses of money, many awful discriminatory plans were shut down because they were shouted down by the citizenry.

                                      But sadly, the SLT is different. When you "ask beforehand to be put on the agenda," as in your words, or "go to the SLT in the Supplicant Position and request permission that they condescend to let you speak," as in my words, it's a whole different ball game.

                                      It's an authoritarian, autocratic, corporate-style, power-consolidated type of regime. It's upside down: the civil servants tell the citizens how it's gonna be, when it should be the other way around.

                                      Because this tiny team of 10 -17 individuals, usually dominated by the principal and school employees beholden to him or her, is the only body that makes decisions and gets to have input into the schools.

                                      Whereas in the Rest of America, they use the American System. Think Democracy. Thinks civics class (if you are too young for that, you might be shocked to learn what our forebears learned in civics class and how it led to many positive results for our country). --Vicki

                                      --- In nyceducationnews@yahoogroups.com, "Jane Reiff" <jesnik@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Just a comment on who can speak at the SLT. As with most meetings Robert Rules come into play. You need to be recognized by the chair and the reason for this I believe is that these are working meetings and if anyone came who wanted to speak it would interfere with work that is necessary. You can also prearrange your attendance and ask beforehand to be put on the agenda.
                                      > Jane
                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > From: t
                                      > To: nyceducationnews@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Sent: Saturday, June 29, 2013 12:17 AM
                                      > Subject: [nyceducationnews] Re: Thinking big-picture
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > So we are in agreement on who can speak at SLT meetings..."Who can speak at an SLT is set by the published bylaws of individual SLTs."
                                      >
                                      > We as citizens and parents do not have our rights respected by the process, first because we have to be granted that right by the SLT if it sees fit in the bylaws and second because my local school, as well as I'll be virtually every public school in NYC, has written into its bylaws that those who wish to speak must be granted the privilege.
                                      >
                                      > As opposed to the rest of America, where all citizens have the unquestioned right to speak, according to Open Meetings laws and principles of democracy, at school board meetings.
                                      >
                                      > The SLT at our local school had written into its bylaws that anyone other than SLT members who want to speak at a meeting must be granted the privilege. And if a civic-minded taxpayer who does not have a child at the school wants to attend the meeting...they are turned away at the front door, as is the press.
                                      >
                                      > ...and I'll bet at every SLT...has likely written into its bylaws the same rule.
                                      > --Vicki
                                      >
                                      > --- In nyceducationnews@yahoogroups.com, "Paul G" <pgarrity@> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Here are the regulations.
                                      > > http://schools.nyc.gov/NR/rdonlyres/381F4607-7841-4D28-B7D5-0F30DDB77DFA/82007/A655FINAL1.pdf
                                      > >
                                      > > Who can speak at an SLT is set by the published bylaws of individual SLTs. Are you talking to the parent SLT members outside of the meetings?
                                      > >
                                      > > If your SLT is not in compliance, you might try taking it up with members of the District Leadership Team.
                                      > >
                                      > > You might also look up the rules on how cash transactions are to be handled at schools, as it sounds like your school is in violation of that as well.
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In nyceducationnews@yahoogroups.com, "t" <rg98765@> wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > You are repeating a widely-held misconception and might need to look up the written rules on SLTs.
                                      > >
                                      >
                                    • t
                                      Thank you -- I can t tell whether you disagree or agree with me, but you rest my case. Citizens rationally Do like to see how their tax money has been
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Jun 29, 2013
                                        Thank you -- I can't tell whether you disagree or agree with me, but you rest my case.

                                        Citizens rationally Do like to see how their tax money has been allocated to schools.

                                        Again, thinking big-picture like an American with rights instead of like a NYC school parent who is a serf of a Kremlinesque, Kafkaesque system, I should be able to see that information. Especially because from what I can tell, they are required to do so both by the law and by the DOE's own regulations.

                                        Put it this way: I don't care what principals like. I care what the law says about what principals have to do. --Vicki


                                        --- In nyceducationnews@yahoogroups.com, calantjis@... wrote:
                                        >
                                        > While you can now see the school spending budget for 2012-2013, I believe it was posted recently. During the year, you will only view the previous year's spending. For whatever irrational reasons, principals do not like to share how they have allocated school monies for spending until the school year is over.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > -----Original Message-----
                                        > From: Paul G <pgarrity@...>
                                        > To: nyceducationnews <nyceducationnews@yahoogroups.com>
                                        > Sent: Fri, Jun 28, 2013 1:46 pm
                                        > Subject: [nyceducationnews] Re: Thinking big-picture
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > There is a lot to discuss in your post but just a couple of things:
                                        >
                                        > SLTs include elected parent members. Other parents should not only be allowed to attend, but their attendance should be encouraged -- this is how it has been in the schools my son has attended. If you have been told otherwise, complain. The schedule of SLT meetings must be posted according to the Chancellor's Regulations.
                                        >
                                        > Parents also have a right to speak at CEC and other public meetings, they just have to sign up in advance, which just means showing up 1/2 hour early.
                                        >
                                        > While it may not be sufficient detail for you, school budgets are posted online at the "School Portal" website for every public school. Go to schools.nyc.gov and search for your school's "portal" website, then click on "statistics and budget". Individual teacher salaries will not be broken out.
                                        >
                                        > You can also get to the budget overview by going to
                                        > http://schools.nyc.gov/AboutUs/funding/schoolbudgets/
                                        > and selecting your school from there.
                                        >
                                        > See also:
                                        > http://schools.nyc.gov/offices/d_chanc_oper/budget/dbor/allocationmemo/fy12_13/FY13_PDF/FSF_Guide.pdf
                                        >
                                        > http://schools.nyc.gov/offices/d_chanc_oper/budget/dbor/Budget_Publication/2013_Budget_Publication/2013_Guide_to_Budget_English.pdf
                                        >
                                        > Whether you believe the various data is another story, but it's a place to begin.
                                        >
                                        > --- In nyceducationnews@yahoogroups.com, "t" <rg98765@> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > 5. They have school board meetings where it is their right to speak. We have lost our constitutional rights, as "mere" citizens aren't even allowed to attend SLT meetings and parents must request permission to speak.
                                        > >
                                        > > 6. They have a right to see the budget. I thought I saw something somewhere that said I had a right to see that budget, but it's not on the web and in the school, it was chained to the copier. I wasn't allowed to copy it "because it has salaries in there." Hello? I thought school salaries were public information? The principal refused to let me have this information.
                                        >
                                      • t
                                        Thank you, and sorry to bother you, but I still cannot find it. Any hints? I have clicked and clicked for a couple of years now. Are they posted in a timely
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Jun 29, 2013
                                          Thank you, and sorry to bother you, but I still cannot find it. Any hints? I have clicked and clicked for a couple of years now. Are they posted in a timely fashion? --Vicki

                                          --- In nyceducationnews@yahoogroups.com, "c_ofeb" <MO9Ernie@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Salaries can be seen on the DOE website, on each school's webpage.
                                          >
                                          > -c
                                          >
                                        • Jane Reiff
                                          I think the only view published would be the average salary and not the exact salaries per teacher. This is like the SLT view of the budget. ... From: t To:
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Jun 30, 2013
                                            I think the only view published would be the average salary and not the exact salaries per teacher. This is like the SLT view of the budget.
                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            From: t
                                            Sent: Saturday, June 29, 2013 9:50 PM
                                            Subject: [nyceducationnews] Re: Thinking big-picture

                                             

                                            Thank you -- I can't tell whether you disagree or agree with me, but you rest my case.

                                            Citizens rationally Do like to see how their tax money has been allocated to schools.

                                            Again, thinking big-picture like an American with rights instead of like a NYC school parent who is a serf of a Kremlinesque, Kafkaesque system, I should be able to see that information. Especially because from what I can tell, they are required to do so both by the law and by the DOE's own regulations.

                                            Put it this way: I don't care what principals like. I care what the law says about what principals have to do. --Vicki

                                            --- In nyceducationnews@yahoogroups.com, calantjis@... wrote:
                                            >
                                            > While you can now see the school spending budget for 2012-2013, I believe it was posted recently. During the year, you will only view the previous year's spending. For whatever irrational reasons, principals do not like to share how they have allocated school monies for spending until the school year is over.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > -----Original Message-----
                                            > From: Paul G <pgarrity@...>
                                            > To: nyceducationnews <nyceducationnews@yahoogroups.com>
                                            > Sent: Fri, Jun 28, 2013 1:46 pm
                                            > Subject: [nyceducationnews] Re: Thinking big-picture
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > There is a lot to discuss in your post but just a couple of things:
                                            >
                                            > SLTs include elected parent members. Other parents should not only be allowed to attend, but their attendance should be encouraged -- this is how it has been in the schools my son has attended. If you have been told otherwise, complain. The schedule of SLT meetings must be posted according to the Chancellor's Regulations.
                                            >
                                            > Parents also have a right to speak at CEC and other public meetings, they just have to sign up in advance, which just means showing up 1/2 hour early.
                                            >
                                            > While it may not be sufficient detail for you, school budgets are posted online at the "School Portal" website for every public school. Go to schools.nyc.gov and search for your school's "portal" website, then click on "statistics and budget". Individual teacher salaries will not be broken out.
                                            >
                                            > You can also get to the budget overview by going to
                                            > http://schools.nyc.gov/AboutUs/funding/schoolbudgets/
                                            > and selecting your school from there.
                                            >
                                            > See also:
                                            > http://schools.nyc.gov/offices/d_chanc_oper/budget/dbor/allocationmemo/fy12_13/FY13_PDF/FSF_Guide.pdf
                                            >
                                            > http://schools.nyc.gov/offices/d_chanc_oper/budget/dbor/Budget_Publication/2013_Budget_Publication/2013_Guide_to_Budget_English.pdf
                                            >
                                            > Whether you believe the various data is another story, but it's a place to begin.
                                            >
                                            > --- In nyceducationnews@yahoogroups.com, "t" <rg98765@> wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > 5. They have school board meetings where it is their right to speak. We have lost our constitutional rights, as "mere" citizens aren't even allowed to attend SLT meetings and parents must request permission to speak.
                                            > >
                                            > > 6. They have a right to see the budget. I thought I saw something somewhere that said I had a right to see that budget, but it's not on the web and in the school, it was chained to the copier. I wasn't allowed to copy it "because it has salaries in there." Hello? I thought school salaries were public information? The principal refused to let me have this information.
                                            >

                                          • c_ofeb
                                            To find a detailed budget, go to the school s page on the DOE website and click on Budget Summary and type in the school s ID. Salary information can t be
                                            Message 21 of 21 , Jun 30, 2013
                                              To find a detailed budget, go to the school's page on the DOE website and click on "Budget Summary" and type in the school's ID.

                                              Salary information can't be too sensitive if the newspapers print the salaries of the offending school employee of the week in their articles.

                                              All public employees' salaries from any government department can be found out somewhere.



                                              --- In nyceducationnews@yahoogroups.com, "t" <rg98765@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Thanks for the clarification -- so it's worse than I thought. First, because the "Galaxy Budget" is not provided to the public beyond the SLT, and it should be public information.
                                              >
                                              > Second, because I realize that I had been seeking in the past, the one chained to the copier, was not the Galaxy Budget with sensitive salary information but, apparently, the CEP with the school-based budget that apparently does not include salaries? Which the regulations say "shall be posted on the DOE's or the school's official website."? Our CEP was never posted on either; the school had said they wouldn't post it because the DOE would take care of it, but it never appeared that year (2010-2011).
                                              >
                                              > I just did a quick search and still don't find the CEP on either the school's web site or on the DOE site.
                                              >
                                              > Does anyone know how to find these on the DOE site? Or are they not there? Does anyone's school have it posted on their school's web site?
                                              >
                                              > I know to some extent on this list I am preaching to the choir. I just don't think we should ever lose site of how we live in virtual poverty with our NYC schools when it comes to parent and citizen rights compared to other NY State taxpayers and citizens.
                                              > --Vicki
                                              >
                                            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.