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56518Re: [district3parents] Re: Diane---

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  • Neal H. Hurwitz
    Mar 21, 2014
    • 0 Attachment
      TY Paul. Re-reading Sol Stern's book I am aware that the "failures" of public ed lead
      some to want competition in the public sector... they want to "shake" up the established
      practices... etc.

      I am for the best in public education within public education! 

      And alternatives need not "destroy" or negatively impact public ed... that seems to be a major
      complaint in the co-locations situations... 

      My own children have been at Julia Richmond, PS 165, Joan of Arc--- and the old Stuyvesant!---
      all have multiple schools at one site.

      Cheers, Neal

      Neal H. Hurwitz
      NY, NY


      -----Original Message-----
      From: Paul Mondesire <tallpaul513@...>
      To: district3parents <district3parents@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Fri, Mar 21, 2014 2:14 pm
      Subject: Re: [district3parents] Re: Diane---

      Hello to all,

      There is a major component missing in the Public School vs. Charter School debate: Why are there so many under-performing schools to begin with? Why is it so hard to figure out what are the best practice coming out of the best schools and adapt them for use in other environments?

      There public schools such as those run by The Eagle Academy Foundation that have a vision and approach to education that is working for their population. There is the Equity Project Charter School which is starting to come into its own. And of course, there are the independent schools like Dalton, Trinity, Brooklyn Friends et al that do an excellent job, albeit at a steep price. What do they have in common? They are all focused on providing the best possible educational experience for their cohort of young people.

      The corporate support and Land Shark attitude that Ms. Moskowitz has brought into this discussion has caused much discord among people who really should be working together. The co-location policy has cause students to feel like second class citizens in their own building is a MAJOR PROBLEM. But be aware that something similar occurred  with Crossroads and  Mott Hall II according to my daughter who attended the latter.

      The bottom line in all of this is always "follow the money" but the outcomes are not simply driven by money. The best schools have strong visionary leadership, buy-in from all of their stakeholders (students, parents, teachers, administrators, and several other groups), a strategies and tactics to achieve their goals, and access to the resources to make it happen in the long term. And even the schools with the best reputations have challenges. Check out the documentary American Promise www.americanpromise.org to get some perspective on a different set of challenges.

      So, perhaps we can all take a breath to think about what is actually working in the schools that we like and respect, and then discuss how those models can be replicated more widely. Let's focus on finding ways to bring additional resources and support to students that are struggling and to those who are doing okay and need to be inspired to excel.

      "You may say I'm a dreamer
      But I'm not the only one
      I hope someday you'll join us
      And the world will live as one."

      - John Lennon

      On Wednesday, March 19, 2014 4:54 PM, Neal H. Hurwitz <nealhugh@...> wrote:
      Hi! I am responding below... out of respect... I really am learning about all this... :) 

      How can you talk about "competition" when Stuy picks its students and so does Eva? --- I mean competition with the 
      private schools like Dalton, Exeter, Trinity, etc. --- no reason we cannot have the best public education possible 
      and compare w private schools... too many have abandoned public schools for their own children, as I see this 
      often among my Columbia and Stuyvesant classmates, friends, et al. 
      She has no high-needs special ed kids, while the nearby Harlem public schools have 14.1%. Is that fair competition? ---

      She spends $2,000 more per student.--- Well... you can also say she knows what she is doing about raising funds--- since I am in development, I see that as a good for ALL schools! and I consulted for The Fund for Public Schools under Crew but what would have been good went nowhere it seems ...and then Mayor Bloomberg took over... 

      She has half as many ELLs.--- OK.

      No one supervises her or her admissions policies or her discipline policies.--- OK... is that the same for Zeke at TEP? And
      Eva is responsible to her Board and the NYS Regents, yes? (Seems to me that the most negative are the co-location issues,
      and the ELLs and "high-needs" students... Note: there is a HS in District 3 called Reynolds, formerly West Side, which
      is all students who have not been successful elsewhere... interesting... First time I heard of it...)

      In what sense, other than getting public money, is this a public school?--- OK... but getting PUBLIC $ IS ONE DEFINITION FOR "PUBLIC"... Why not call them 'public charter schools' or maybe better: "charter public schools"? (And I ran The National Conference on Private Funding for Public Education" at Columbia U in 2003...) 

      Very best! Neal.


      Neal H. Hurwitz
      NY, NY


      -----Original Message-----
      From: Diane Ravitch <gardendr@...>
      To: nyceducationnews <nyceducationnews@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Tue, Mar 18, 2014 3:53 pm
      Subject: Re: Diane--- Re: [nyceducationnews] FW: Eva - Take Action


      How can you talk about "competition" when Stuy picks its students and so does Eva? 
      She has no high-needs special ed kids, while the nearby Harlem public schools have 14.1%. Is that fair competition?
      She spends $2,000 more per student.
      She has half as many ELLs.
      No one supervises her or her admissions policies or her discipline policies.
      In what sense, other than getting public money, is this a public school?


      On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 2:53 PM, Neal H. Hurwitz <nealhugh@...> wrote:
      Diane--- thanks! good point... 

      So what/who oversees, evaluates, can hire/fire a Principal like Zeke ("on a mission" they say) at TEP???

      Boeing bids for contracts; the fix is in often we know; the government also has influence on corporate affairs
      at major contractors... the Secty of the Air Force influences Pentagon decisions, etc. etc. etc. 

      Charters are also seen as a part of the public education system. Those interested in public education have
      to be aware and concerned and involved with all relating to publicly-funded charter schools.

      In my view, I want public schools to compete with the best private! and that is what has been happening at
      Stuyvesant... MSC... and should be the case for all K-12 in NYC!!! :)  

      TY! Neal 

      Neal H. Hurwitz
      NY, NY


      -----Original Message-----
      From: Diane Ravitch <gardendr@...>
      To: nyceducationnews <nyceducationnews@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Tue, Mar 18, 2014 2:43 pm
      Subject: Re: [nyceducationnews] FW: Eva - Take Action

      They call themselves public but that does not make them public. They are private corporations with a government contract, like Boeing. 


      On Mar 18, 2014, at 2:32 PM, "Neal H. Hurwitz" <nealhugh@...> wrote:

      They are public "charter" schools.

      Neal H. Hurwitz
      NY, NY


      -----Original Message-----
      From: Dunn yahoo <bdunn90@...>
      To: nyceducationnews <nyceducationnews@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Tue, Mar 18, 2014 2:22 pm
      Subject: Re: [nyceducationnews] FW: Eva - Take Action

      Even though they are independently contracted charter schools (maybe this is how they should be described?), the bulk of their revenue is from tax dollars.  

      Even if they aren't subject to audit (which I don't understand), are they are subject to Open Meetings Law and FOIL?

      On Mar 18, 2014, at 2:16 PM, Rachel Paster <rpaster@...> wrote:


      has this issue -- foil requests to charters -- been litigated?

      On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 9:06 AM, Noah Gotbaum <noah@...> wrote:

      Further proof of charters not being public - as if more is needed:

      A couple of years back our CEC questioned marketing tactics as well as the opacity of the Upper West Success Academy's lottery to SUNY, the charter's authorizer.  SUNY told us that they had NO jurisdiction to get involved and referred us instead to Eva's private Board of Directors, most hedge fund managers hand-picked by Eva.  Not surprisingly the Board didn't even respond and 3 years later we still are waiting on a FOIL request.  That's accountability - for a "public" school no less? 

      noah eliot gotbaum
      twitter: @noahegotbaum

      On Mar 17, 2014, at 23:25, Diane Ravitch <gardendr@...> wrote:


      This is key. Never refer to a charter as a public school. They can't be audited, they have private boards. They are not public schools.

      Diane Ravitch

      On Mar 17, 2014, at 11:20 PM, "Leonie Haimson" <leonie@...> wrote:


      Josh Greenman, the oped editor of the DN, is a big charter school supporter and just published his own piece insisting that charters are public schools – as has Michael Bloomberg and Arne Duncan in recent days.  This is absolute dogma for these guys and they will not budge lest the entire artifice of corporate takeovers is revealed and comes tumbling down on their heads.
      From: nyceducationnews@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nyceducationnews@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Noah Gotbaum
      Sent: Monday, March 17, 2014 11:17 PM
      To: nyceducationnews@yahoogroups.com
      Cc: nyceducationnews@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [nyceducationnews] FW: Eva - Take Action
      Thanks Diane.  Thanks Khem.  Governance distinction makes sense. We should be consistent on this.  
      As a somewhat funny aside, in my oped the Daily News editors kept trying to insert the word "traditional" every time I used the term "public schools."   They claimed my piece would be confusing to the readers unless I distinguished between "Public" Charters and "traditional" public schools. I told them I would not accept the use of the "traditional" modifier since I do not believe charters are public schools, that schools are either public, private or charter and that my views certainly would not be confusing to their readers.  I almost had to pull my OpEd because they kept insisting but finally they agreed that it was my OpEd, not theirs.  Well sort of. 
      I trust Diane that on those too rare occasions that the Corp reform press like the Daily News takes your work, they don't try to take the same liberties. 

      noah eliot gotbaum
      twitter: @noahegotbaum

      On Mar 16, 2014, at 16:11, Diane Ravitch <gardendr@...> wrote:
      Charters are not public schools because whenever challenged in court, their defense is that they are not public schools.
      There have been federal court cases, NLRB cases, now Eva's case: they always say they are private corporations with contracts to operate a school and thus not subject to laws that apply to public schools. 
      Stuyvesant is a public school subject to the laws of the state of NY and to the NYC Board of Education. It is not controlled by a private corporation and it does not claim it may not be audited. 
      The nature of the admissions doesn't define a public school. Governance does. 

      Diane Ravitch

      On Mar 16, 2014, at 2:44 PM, Khem Irby <kdi812@...> wrote:
      Hi  Noah,

      Thank you for your diligence and being a defender of public education.

      I would like to interject how our mayor declared that being a city divided or tale of two cities is continuing through public education and could be used identifying the inequity of such laws.

      Khem Irby

      Sent from my T-Mobile 4G Android device

      Noah Gotbaum <noah@...> wrote:
      Here's my tweet to Josh Greenman of the Daily News referencing his column last weekend insisting Charters are public schools (but also questioning Eva's Wall Street level salary).  His rationale was that a) charters get public money; b) take ALL kids and via a lottery and c) have more state oversight.  I asked if we can show that they don't take all kids, that lottery is a sham, and that there's zero oversight would he admit that they're private?  My oped re Success was being published the next morning so he suggested we not get into the issue!  This was before the judges ruling that charters are not a "unit of the state."  
      That said, the back and forth we did have he cited Brooklyn Tech as an example of a school which doesn't take all kids and has a large ($13 mm) private endowment, but we don't question that they are public schools.  Tech is frequently referenced by the hedge hogs - must have something to do with Dante deBlasio.  
      Happy to get into debate on this, but know that Diane is going to post on it.
      @joshgreenman Re Oped http://nydn.us/1f8h7IH  @SuccessCharters lottery a sham; no state ovrsite; exclude dfficlt kids. So theyre privte, yes?
      On Sat, Mar 15, 2014 at 2:10 PM, Diane Ravitch <gardendr@...> wrote:
      I plan to write a post that says if charter schools are not "technically a unit of the state" (i.e. private) they should pay rent.
      Only  public schools should get free space. 
      Charters are not public schools.
      Her victory in court should be her undoing.
      On Sat, Mar 15, 2014 at 2:08 PM, Leonie Haimson <leonie@...> wrote:
      Below, Eva calls Senate proposals to preference charters “ leveling the playing field” but reserving space in public schools for charters or making DOE pay for their facilities, plus raising the per student amount for NYC charters – and making NYC cover the bill, plus allowing all co-located charters the authority to veto any changes will clearly put them way ahead of public schools  in funding and power.
      Begin forwarded message:
      Date: March 15, 2014 10:19:12 AM
      Only ten days ago, 11,000 of us assembled in Albany, braving the freezing cold and raising our voices with parents and teachers from across New York State. We were there for one reason: to advocate for equal and fair treatment for all public school students, ensuring that all children, from all neighborhoods and all incomes have access to great schools. We stood on hard-packed snow and cheered warmly as we heard state leaders and Governor Cuomo tell us:
      “We are here today to tell you that we stand with you. You are not alone. We will save charter schools.”
      Yesterday state leaders put forth legislative proposals that will secure equal funding and equal access to public school facilities for all public school children. The State Senate has proposed a budget that stands up for all children, including public charter school children. It would:

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