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Re: Angeline the Baker

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  • DulcieDuck@aol.com
    And you know who wrote Angeline the Baker? Good ol Stephen Foster. Dunno if he was French or Irish or what his first language might ve been. Hmm- was he
    Message 1 of 3 , Mar 2, 2006
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      And you know who wrote Angeline the Baker? Good ol' Stephen Foster. Dunno if
      he was French or Irish or what his 'first' language might've been. Hmm- was he
      French? No matter- Paul, I agree with you.. Doesn't have to be in English to
      be bluegrass (how 'bout all those Japanese bluegrassers? - they must be doing
      bluegrass in their own tongue, n'est pas?)

      I have been a follower (and friend) of Beausoleil myself, and agree that
      Michael Doucet's fiddle-playing can have a bluegrass flavor. Sounds like you were
      at Escoheague in the days of the Cajun-Bluegrass Festival, where bluegrass and
      Cajun/Zydeco musicians jammed together all night long back at the Tamarack
      lodge? :) The line blurred mightily on those occasions, and it was grand..

      The questions you pose are good ones..and we all know the answers: any
      'style' song, in any language on any instrument, can be what you make it..Let's hear
      it for diversity!

      P.S If you want to hear a phenomenal instrumental 'Angeline the Baker', check
      out the version by the Kruger Brothers on their 'Choices' CD.

      Dulcie

      Thread:
      > I love the tune Angeline the Baker.
      > >   However, someone made a rude comment to me at a jam because I like to
      > sing it in North American French.
      > >
      > >   I love Beausolieu, which is undeniably a traditional Cajun band.
      > >   But Michael Doucet has no problem with bluegrass fiddling and I can
      > attest to this persoanlly after jamming with him at the Big Easy festival in
      > Escohaig, Rhode Island.
      > >   Here is a kicker question: Dennis McGee a Cajun fiddler or an Irish
      > (Celtic) Fiddler who just sings everything in French?
      > >   Is traditional Cajun a component of bluegrass?
      > >
      > >   My, born in the good ole USA, dad played a squeeze box (his name for a
      > seven key instrument that was kind of like a concertina, which he also
      > called La Chansonier du Mellodique).
      > >   He could play Angeline the Baker, St. Anne's Real, a melody that sounded
      > like The Eight of January and a lot of the melodies that happen at bluegrass
      > jams.
      > >   (By the way, my dad called the first two tunes Angelienne la Boulanger,
      > La Reale du San Anne. He sang the verses in French  as he played them.)
      > >   These are melodies you might hear in Northern Maine or Louisianna.
      > >
      > >   That makes them either Cajun or North East Acadienne, Right?
      > >   BUT Sleepy LaBoeuf and Joe Val (Joe Valle) were both from New England
      > and are still known as bluegrassers.
      > >   They were both Acadienne French speaking Americans who could put on an
      > Acadienne show (just like Beausolieu) without blinking an eye.
      > >   Unless you could disstinguish between Louisanna French and Acadienne
      > French, you'd think you were hearing Cajun music.
      > >   They could sing any bluegrass song around in either language and would
      > do so at the drop of a hat.
      > >   There are and were  a lot of fiddlers in Louisanna, North Idaho, Montana
      > and in the North East who could  and still can do the same.
      > >
      > >   So, When I sing Angeline (Angelienne) in French, does it quit being
      > bluegrass??
      > >   Did LaBoeuf and Val quit playing bluegrass when they switched to French.
      > >
      > >   How about the Irish (call them Celtic, if you wish) back  East that can
      > sing songs in English or Gaelic and don't really care if you call it
      > "Celtic" or bluegrass.
      > >   You see it all the time in Charlestown (Boston), MA.
      > >
      > >   I went into a bar in Hillsboro. A Mexican bar. I saw a friend in there
      > who is known around town as a bluegrasser. He plays bass in a traditonal
      > Mariachi band.in that bar. They sing "Angeline" in Spanish. Since there are
      > no horns, just strings, is this Mexican bluegrass?
      > >
      > >   Was my Dad playing the bluegrass squeezebox?
      > >   Hey, I need to know these things.
      > >
      > >   Paul
      > >
      >



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Arthur Noel
      This is another musicological myth. Here in the Western U.S., a lot of what we believe comes out of books, etc. And this stuff really grates on people whose
      Message 2 of 3 , Mar 2, 2006
      • 0 Attachment
        This is another musicological myth.
        Here in the Western U.S., a lot of what we believe comes out of books, etc.
        And this stuff really grates on people whose ethnicity owns these tunes.
        That includes me. My Dad got it from his family, not from Foster.
        My family has been in Niorth America longer than Foster's family.

        Angiline/Angilienne is just another victim in a long list of melodies that ended up with
        someone formally putting their name on it.
        Many musicologists were really evil about doing this. That includes S. Foster.
        He plagarized folk melodies just like all the other New York City publishers that were scouring the Appalachians, the Bershires, the Maritimes and the Mississippi Delta for
        melodies and then "legally" making them theirs.
        Its is a travesty but it happened just same. It happened a lot.
        And, unfortunately, even Bill Monroe is known for it.

        The Acadians/Acadiennes and Cajuns were singing Angiline in both Gaelic and French in the 1720's when my family arrived. I am not sure old Jean Baptiste knew how to play it, but the singers in my family got it from Northern Quebec, not from Foster.

        It is a traditional Acadienne French/Irish Acadian/Acadienne melody.
        Les Cajunes also were playing it long before Foster penned his John Hanncock on it.

        Most people who live in upper New England and in the Maritimes (Acadians/Acadiennes) know this.

        Foster is just another one of the song thieves, just like Alan and Beth Lomax who copywrited a whole heck of a lot songs they heard somewhere.
        Beth copywrited "Charley On the MTA", and then added the O'Brien (O'Biran) verse to help her wobbly friend with an election.
        Charley actually pre-dates "Wreck of the Old 97" because is was a bawdy beer hall song sung while the subway rats (tunnel diggers) while they were building the two MTAs, (the one in Boston and in New York)
        Both of these tunnels were begun in the late 1880's.

        Angiline is really "Angilienne La Boulangere". It was sung in Burgundy, Normandy and Cotentin long before it arrived here in North America. Its a melody that has had a lot of verses.
        And, just like "Charley" It was a tavern drinking song about a woman who was a "baker" ( boulangere). Before there were jukes, people used to stand next to the piano or the fiddler and sing.
        The original verses were not complimentary o women.
        So Foster decided to clean them up before he published the tune.

        The only verses I sing are the ones that translate into in English as "I like Angiline, I love Angiline and Her bread is very nice." Which is how my Dad sang it.


        Paul

        DulcieDuck@... wrote:
        And you know who wrote Angeline the Baker? Good ol' Stephen Foster. Dunno if
        he was French or Irish or what his 'first' language might've been. Hmm- was he
        French? No matter- Paul, I agree with you.. Doesn't have to be in English to
        be bluegrass (how 'bout all those Japanese bluegrassers? - they must be doing
        bluegrass in their own tongue, n'est pas?)

        I have been a follower (and friend) of Beausoleil myself, and agree that
        Michael Doucet's fiddle-playing can have a bluegrass flavor. Sounds like you were
        at Escoheague in the days of the Cajun-Bluegrass Festival, where bluegrass and
        Cajun/Zydeco musicians jammed together all night long back at the Tamarack
        lodge? :) The line blurred mightily on those occasions, and it was grand..

        The questions you pose are good ones..and we all know the answers: any
        'style' song, in any language on any instrument, can be what you make it..Let's hear
        it for diversity!

        P.S If you want to hear a phenomenal instrumental 'Angeline the Baker', check
        out the version by the Kruger Brothers on their 'Choices' CD.

        Dulcie

        Thread:
        > I love the tune Angeline the Baker.
        > > However, someone made a rude comment to me at a jam because I like to
        > sing it in North American French.
        > >
        > > I love Beausolieu, which is undeniably a traditional Cajun band.
        > > But Michael Doucet has no problem with bluegrass fiddling and I can
        > attest to this persoanlly after jamming with him at the Big Easy festival in
        > Escohaig, Rhode Island.
        > > Here is a kicker question: Dennis McGee a Cajun fiddler or an Irish
        > (Celtic) Fiddler who just sings everything in French?
        > > Is traditional Cajun a component of bluegrass?
        > >
        > > My, born in the good ole USA, dad played a squeeze box (his name for a
        > seven key instrument that was kind of like a concertina, which he also
        > called La Chansonier du Mellodique).
        > > He could play Angeline the Baker, St. Anne's Real, a melody that sounded
        > like The Eight of January and a lot of the melodies that happen at bluegrass
        > jams.
        > > (By the way, my dad called the first two tunes Angelienne la Boulanger,
        > La Reale du San Anne. He sang the verses in French as he played them.)
        > > These are melodies you might hear in Northern Maine or Louisianna.
        > >
        > > That makes them either Cajun or North East Acadienne, Right?
        > > BUT Sleepy LaBoeuf and Joe Val (Joe Valle) were both from New England
        > and are still known as bluegrassers.
        > > They were both Acadienne French speaking Americans who could put on an
        > Acadienne show (just like Beausolieu) without blinking an eye.
        > > Unless you could disstinguish between Louisanna French and Acadienne
        > French, you'd think you were hearing Cajun music.
        > > They could sing any bluegrass song around in either language and would
        > do so at the drop of a hat.
        > > There are and were a lot of fiddlers in Louisanna, North Idaho, Montana
        > and in the North East who could and still can do the same.
        > >
        > > So, When I sing Angeline (Angelienne) in French, does it quit being
        > bluegrass??
        > > Did LaBoeuf and Val quit playing bluegrass when they switched to French.
        > >
        > > How about the Irish (call them Celtic, if you wish) back East that can
        > sing songs in English or Gaelic and don't really care if you call it
        > "Celtic" or bluegrass.
        > > You see it all the time in Charlestown (Boston), MA.
        > >
        > > I went into a bar in Hillsboro. A Mexican bar. I saw a friend in there
        > who is known around town as a bluegrasser. He plays bass in a traditonal
        > Mariachi band.in that bar. They sing "Angeline" in Spanish. Since there are
        > no horns, just strings, is this Mexican bluegrass?
        > >
        > > Was my Dad playing the bluegrass squeezebox?
        > > Hey, I need to know these things.
        > >
        > > Paul
        > >
        >



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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      • Bill Nix
        Steven Foster did not write Angeline THE Baker and never claimed to. He wrote an entirely different tune called Angelina Baker or something close to that. I
        Message 3 of 3 , Mar 2, 2006
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          Steven Foster did not write Angeline THE Baker and never claimed to. He wrote an entirely different tune called "Angelina Baker" or something close to that. I could look it up if someone doubts this assertion.
          BN

          Arthur Noel wrote:

          >
          > This is another musicological myth.
          > Here in the Western U.S., a lot of what we believe comes out of books, etc.
          > And this stuff really grates on people whose ethnicity owns these tunes.
          > That includes me. My Dad got it from his family, not from Foster.
          > My family has been in Niorth America longer than Foster's family.
          >
          > Angiline/Angilienne is just another victim in a long list of melodies that ended up with
          > someone formally putting their name on it.
          > Many musicologists were really evil about doing this. That includes S. Foster.
          > He plagarized folk melodies just like all the other New York City publishers that were scouring the Appalachians, the Bershires, the Maritimes and the Mississippi Delta for
          > melodies and then "legally" making them theirs.
          > Its is a travesty but it happened just same. It happened a lot.
          > And, unfortunately, even Bill Monroe is known for it.
          >
          > The Acadians/Acadiennes and Cajuns were singing Angiline in both Gaelic and French in the 1720's when my family arrived. I am not sure old Jean Baptiste knew how to play it, but the singers in my family got it from Northern Quebec, not from Foster.
          >
          > It is a traditional Acadienne French/Irish Acadian/Acadienne melody.
          > Les Cajunes also were playing it long before Foster penned his John Hanncock on it.
          >
          > Most people who live in upper New England and in the Maritimes (Acadians/Acadiennes) know this.
          >
          > Foster is just another one of the song thieves, just like Alan and Beth Lomax who copywrited a whole heck of a lot songs they heard somewhere.
          > Beth copywrited "Charley On the MTA", and then added the O'Brien (O'Biran) verse to help her wobbly friend with an election.
          > Charley actually pre-dates "Wreck of the Old 97" because is was a bawdy beer hall song sung while the subway rats (tunnel diggers) while they were building the two MTAs, (the one in Boston and in New York)
          > Both of these tunnels were begun in the late 1880's.
          >
          > Angiline is really "Angilienne La Boulangere". It was sung in Burgundy, Normandy and Cotentin long before it arrived here in North America. Its a melody that has had a lot of verses.
          > And, just like "Charley" It was a tavern drinking song about a woman who was a "baker" ( boulangere). Before there were jukes, people used to stand next to the piano or the fiddler and sing.
          > The original verses were not complimentary o women.
          > So Foster decided to clean them up before he published the tune.
          >
          > The only verses I sing are the ones that translate into in English as "I like Angiline, I love Angiline and Her bread is very nice." Which is how my Dad sang it.
          >
          >
          > Paul
          >
          > DulcieDuck@... wrote:
          > And you know who wrote Angeline the Baker? Good ol' Stephen Foster. Dunno if
          > he was French or Irish or what his 'first' language might've been. Hmm- was he
          > French? No matter- Paul, I agree with you.. Doesn't have to be in English to
          > be bluegrass (how 'bout all those Japanese bluegrassers? - they must be doing
          > bluegrass in their own tongue, n'est pas?)
          >
          > I have been a follower (and friend) of Beausoleil myself, and agree that
          > Michael Doucet's fiddle-playing can have a bluegrass flavor. Sounds like you were
          > at Escoheague in the days of the Cajun-Bluegrass Festival, where bluegrass and
          > Cajun/Zydeco musicians jammed together all night long back at the Tamarack
          > lodge? :) The line blurred mightily on those occasions, and it was grand..
          >
          > The questions you pose are good ones..and we all know the answers: any
          > 'style' song, in any language on any instrument, can be what you make it..Let's hear
          > it for diversity!
          >
          > P.S If you want to hear a phenomenal instrumental 'Angeline the Baker', check
          > out the version by the Kruger Brothers on their 'Choices' CD.
          >
          > Dulcie
          >
          > Thread:
          > > I love the tune Angeline the Baker.
          > > > However, someone made a rude comment to me at a jam because I like to
          > > sing it in North American French.
          > > >
          > > > I love Beausolieu, which is undeniably a traditional Cajun band.
          > > > But Michael Doucet has no problem with bluegrass fiddling and I can
          > > attest to this persoanlly after jamming with him at the Big Easy festival in
          > > Escohaig, Rhode Island.
          > > > Here is a kicker question: Dennis McGee a Cajun fiddler or an Irish
          > > (Celtic) Fiddler who just sings everything in French?
          > > > Is traditional Cajun a component of bluegrass?
          > > >
          > > > My, born in the good ole USA, dad played a squeeze box (his name for a
          > > seven key instrument that was kind of like a concertina, which he also
          > > called La Chansonier du Mellodique).
          > > > He could play Angeline the Baker, St. Anne's Real, a melody that sounded
          > > like The Eight of January and a lot of the melodies that happen at bluegrass
          > > jams.
          > > > (By the way, my dad called the first two tunes Angelienne la Boulanger,
          > > La Reale du San Anne. He sang the verses in French as he played them.)
          > > > These are melodies you might hear in Northern Maine or Louisianna.
          > > >
          > > > That makes them either Cajun or North East Acadienne, Right?
          > > > BUT Sleepy LaBoeuf and Joe Val (Joe Valle) were both from New England
          > > and are still known as bluegrassers.
          > > > They were both Acadienne French speaking Americans who could put on an
          > > Acadienne show (just like Beausolieu) without blinking an eye.
          > > > Unless you could disstinguish between Louisanna French and Acadienne
          > > French, you'd think you were hearing Cajun music.
          > > > They could sing any bluegrass song around in either language and would
          > > do so at the drop of a hat.
          > > > There are and were a lot of fiddlers in Louisanna, North Idaho, Montana
          > > and in the North East who could and still can do the same.
          > > >
          > > > So, When I sing Angeline (Angelienne) in French, does it quit being
          > > bluegrass??
          > > > Did LaBoeuf and Val quit playing bluegrass when they switched to French.
          > > >
          > > > How about the Irish (call them Celtic, if you wish) back East that can
          > > sing songs in English or Gaelic and don't really care if you call it
          > > "Celtic" or bluegrass.
          > > > You see it all the time in Charlestown (Boston), MA.
          > > >
          > > > I went into a bar in Hillsboro. A Mexican bar. I saw a friend in there
          > > who is known around town as a bluegrasser. He plays bass in a traditonal
          > > Mariachi band.in that bar. They sing "Angeline" in Spanish. Since there are
          > > no horns, just strings, is this Mexican bluegrass?
          > > >
          > > > Was my Dad playing the bluegrass squeezebox?
          > > > Hey, I need to know these things.
          > > >
          > > > Paul
          > > >
          > >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
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          > Bluegrass music
          >
          > ---------------------------------
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          >
          >
          > Visit your group "nwbluegrass" on the web.
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
          >
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