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Internet music copying

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  • Chuck Haynie
    List: The following is an article written by Janis Ian, a non-bluegrass acoustic musician that details her positive experience (from the perspective of an
    Message 1 of 9 , Feb 2, 2003
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      List:

      The following is an article written by Janis Ian, a non-bluegrass
      acoustic musician that details her positive experience (from
      the perspective of an artist selling her music) with allowing
      general copying and net distribution of her work. It also
      has some stats from the music industry.

      http://www.janisian.com/article-internet_debacle.html

      I thought it modestly interesting.

      Regards,

      Chuck Haynie
      Hood River, OR
    • Mark Gensman
      She made some good points. Especially coming from her perspective of a musician that was popular years ago and still has a catalogue of songs that need
      Message 2 of 9 , Feb 3, 2003
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        She made some good points. Especially coming from her perspective of a
        musician that was popular years ago and still has a catalogue of songs that
        need exposure to keep a career alive.

        I also find it sad how many great musicians signed contracts that basically
        placed them into slavery. I know Billy Joel never recieved a dime for "Piano
        Man" because of agreements he signed without realizing what he signed.

        I think a simple solution to internet downloading is to add a dime to the
        cost of each blank CD. Send it to BMI/ASCAP etc. and let them distribute it
        to the artists. End of problem. Sort of like a surcharge on snow tires to
        help pay for the extra road damange.

        One last little point...Janis Ian is a musician. I really don't think we
        need to add the "non-bluegrass" label. Or maybe you didn't go far enough...
        Janis Ian, a non-bluegrass, female, Fender guitar, non mandolin playing,
        non-rock and roll, non-classical, folk singer songwriter.

        I realize you were simply being helpful to those who may not be familiar
        with her.

        I'd rather put her in the bigger box..JMHO.

        Mark Gensman
        Ground Zero Sound

        ----SNIP---
        >List:
        >
        >The following is an article written by Janis Ian, a non-bluegrass
        >acoustic musician that details her positive experience (from
        >the perspective of an artist selling her music) with allowing
        >general copying and net distribution of her work. It also
        >has some stats from the music industry.
        >
        >http://www.janisian.com/article-internet_debacle.html
        >
        >I thought it modestly interesting.
        >
        >Regards,
        >
        >Chuck Haynie
        >Hood River, OR
        >


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      • Bob Bickers
        ... Mark, how much change do you think this solution might bring back to, say, The Knott Brothers, Frontline, or No Strings Attached? I feel the answer must
        Message 3 of 9 , Feb 3, 2003
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          Mark Gensman wrote:

          > I think a simple solution to internet downloading is to add a dime to the
          > cost of each blank CD. Send it to BMI/ASCAP etc. and let them distribute it
          > to the artists. End of problem. Sort of like a surcharge on snow tires to
          > help pay for the extra road damange.
          >

          Mark, how much change do you think this solution might bring back to,
          say, The Knott Brothers, Frontline, or No Strings Attached? I feel the
          answer must lay elsewhere. Bob "I pays for what I gets" in Sutherlin
        • Mark Gensman
          Bob, good question. When you say bring back to the various groups that implies they either have rights to their original music registered with BMI/ASCAP,
          Message 4 of 9 , Feb 3, 2003
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            Bob, good question. When you say "bring back to" the various groups that
            implies they either have rights to their original music registered with
            BMI/ASCAP, etc. and are getting royalties now, or at least qualify for
            royalties now.

            Keep in mind this only applies to their original copyrighted material. I
            always wonder how many bands actually pay the holder of the rights to the
            music they do on their CD's that is not their own original material? When
            you say you "pays for what I gets", that may not be the case (through no
            fault of yours) since the CD of your favorite band may have a version of
            "Rocky Top" that the group didn't pay for.

            I admit a simple fix like my proposal may not help all musicians that have
            recorded material for sale, however, I think the amount of money they would
            recieve would be roughly tied to how many folks are downloading Knott
            Brothers, No Strings, etc. music for free off the internet in the first
            place.

            Most of these bands rely on public performances to sell their product. I
            agree that someone who buys one CD and then copies a hundred to give to
            their friends would certainly rip off the local bands. However, having copy
            protection schemes on the CD would stop the music from being distributed and
            heard by a wider audience which would provide a return to the groups in the
            form of bigger audiences, more money for performance, etc.

            Also, I do believe that these groups are giving free CD's to radio stations,
            publications for review, etc. to try to get greater exposure and better
            performance options. What better exposure than a million downloads of the
            current Sawtooth tune?

            I have two of my band CD's out and a solo CD available with a new CD coming
            soon from my newest band. I would love to hear thousands of people have
            suddenly "discovered" me and my bands and started downloading my music.
            Certainly I would benefit by selling more product than I do now.

            There are up sides and down sides no matter what. Just keep in mind that no
            matter what copy scheme gets put in place, it will be defeated very soon.
            Remember the copy protection that congress put in place and effectively
            killed DAT for consumers? The pro machines all showed up with copy
            protection defeat features.

            I still think an additional fee on media is the only way to collect money
            for those with copyrighted music. As Janis Ian stated, she alone is
            accounting for 750 CD's a year.

            Mark Gensman
            Ground Zero Sound

            ----SNIP--->
            >
            >
            >Mark Gensman wrote:
            >
            > > I think a simple solution to internet downloading is to add a dime to
            >the
            > > cost of each blank CD. Send it to BMI/ASCAP etc. and let them distribute
            >it
            > > to the artists. End of problem. Sort of like a surcharge on snow tires
            >to
            > > help pay for the extra road damange.
            > >
            >
            >Mark, how much change do you think this solution might bring back to,
            >say, The Knott Brothers, Frontline, or No Strings Attached? I feel the
            >answer must lay elsewhere. Bob "I pays for what I gets" in Sutherlin


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          • Kathy Boyd
            When preparing to record No Strings Attached s latest CD (debuting in March 2003 by the way!), I got in touch with ASCAP to see about doing the right thing and
            Message 5 of 9 , Feb 3, 2003
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              When preparing to record No Strings Attached's latest CD (debuting in March
              2003 by the way!), I got in touch with ASCAP to see about doing the right
              thing and paying the artists who wrote the songs we wanted to use.

              When I told the gal from ASCAP that we were only going sell a few hundred
              copies she immediately passed me off to the actual writers of the songs.
              Guess there just isn't enough money coming in from us regional folks for
              them to waste their time (?).

              The authors of the songs (those that were alive and findable) were all
              wonderful folks who were thrilled that someone wanted to record their songs.
              It was a joy to work with everyone I corresponded with.

              I suppose the moral of the story is that if you want to support the
              MUSICIANS, dream DOWN (as with the claim that we would only sell a couple
              hundred) and the "big boys" won't want to waste time with you!

              Just my experience. Has anyone else found the above to be true?

              Kathy B.
              Tualatin, OR





              No Strings Attached web site http://www.SwiftSite.com/nostrings attached
              Ground Zero Sound & Promotions web site
              www.groundzerosound.com

              People will forget what you said,
              People will forget what you did,
              But people will never forget how you made them feel!




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            • Matthew Snook
              Kathy wrote: ...I suppose the moral of the story is that if you want to support the MUSICIANS, dream DOWN (as with the claim that we would only sell a couple
              Message 6 of 9 , Feb 4, 2003
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                Kathy wrote:
                ...I suppose the moral of the story is that if you want to support the
                MUSICIANS, dream DOWN (as with the claim that we would only sell a
                couple
                hundred) and the "big boys" won't want to waste time with you!

                Just my experience. Has anyone else found the above to be true?

                Kathy B.



                I have no personal experience with recording or selling, but I heard an
                interesting story at Stevenson this last year. The Whites provided a
                workshop one morning, and the forum was more or less a
                question-and-answer session: whatever people could get them to talk
                about, they did. It was great! We also got a very relaxed performance
                by some very talented people.

                To the point: during the conversation, they came around to the subject
                of money from recordings. This doesn't directly address Kathy's
                question about copyright royalties, but apparently similar situations
                exist even for recording. They claim that for the entire time they were
                contracted to the big record label (I forget now what it was, RCA or
                something) they never received even one check for record sales;
                everything they made was from performing! After they finally severed
                their relationship with RCA (or were severed) and went back to "small"
                record labels they have finally been paid for album sales.

                Dream small, indeed!

                Matt


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Mark Gensman
                ... Back in the mid 60 s my band had a number one hit on KISN radio in Portland for a number of weeks. We were told we sold over 30,000 copies (I have heard as
                Message 7 of 9 , Feb 4, 2003
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                  -----SNIP---
                  >To the point: during the conversation, they came around to the subject
                  >of money from recordings. This doesn't directly address Kathy's
                  >question about copyright royalties, but apparently similar situations
                  >exist even for recording. They claim that for the entire time they were
                  >contracted to the big record label (I forget now what it was, RCA or
                  >something) they never received even one check for record sales;
                  >everything they made was from performing! After they finally severed
                  >their relationship with RCA (or were severed) and went back to "small"
                  >record labels they have finally been paid for album sales.
                  >
                  >Dream small, indeed!
                  >
                  >Matt

                  Back in the mid 60's my band had a number one hit on KISN radio in Portland
                  for a number of weeks. We were told we sold over 30,000 copies (I have heard
                  as high as 60,000). We never got a dime and the reason given to us was that
                  all the money went to recording and distribution costs.

                  The recording certainly did open a lot of doors for us and ultimately made
                  us a ton of money because of the exposure, but we sure never got paid for
                  the actual recordings.

                  We have made lots more money on our last two CD's simply selling them at our
                  gigs and over the internet and keeping control of the product ourselves. I
                  think we are just like other bands in that we simply want to make enough to
                  make another CD. Ain't nobody gettin' rich..

                  Marketing music without getting involved in the corporate machine has become
                  big business on the internet. There are groups and artists making fairly
                  decent money that never get radio play or media attention of any kind. As I
                  have said before, a lot of these artists would love to see hundreds or even
                  thousands of downloads of their music because it may lead to sales. Some
                  sites even have a small charge for downloads and pay the artist a little for
                  every download.

                  Mark Gensman
                  Ground Zero Sound

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                • Sally Metts
                  Matt, I was at that workshop in Stevenson, too! It was certainly interesting to hear the Whites experiences with making it big . Now that Ricky and Sharon
                  Message 8 of 9 , Feb 4, 2003
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                    Matt,

                    I was at that workshop in Stevenson, too! It was certainly interesting to
                    hear the Whites' experiences with 'making it big'. Now that Ricky and Sharon
                    have the Skaggs Family label, they have much more control.

                    I remember that as one of my favorite workshops ever. Stevenson always has
                    great workshops that are generally very informal. LOL, Often the performers
                    didn't know about it ahead of time and that seems to make the format a lot
                    more casual and relaxed.

                    -Stevenson Sal in Scio, OR




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                  • Dave Campbell
                    I didn t know about it ahead of time either, otherwise I would have been there. The Whites are just wonderful genuine folks. -Dave (Woodinville, WA) ... From:
                    Message 9 of 9 , Feb 4, 2003
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                      I didn't know about it ahead of time either, otherwise I would have been
                      there. The Whites are just wonderful genuine folks.

                      -Dave
                      (Woodinville, WA)

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Sally Metts" <sallyjanem@...>

                      > I was at that workshop in Stevenson, too
                      > I remember that as one of my favorite workshops ever. Stevenson always has
                      > great workshops that are generally very informal. LOL, Often the
                      performers
                      > didn't know about it ahead of time and that seems to make the format a lot
                      > more casual and relaxed.
                      >
                      > -Stevenson Sal in Scio, OR
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