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Re: [NH] XHML and all that

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  • Ray Shapp
    Greg and others, I also am considering the upgrade. Please continue this thread online either on this board or on the Off Topic board. Ray Shapp ... I ve been
    Message 1 of 11 , Oct 10, 2000
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      Greg and others,

      I also am considering the upgrade. Please continue this thread online
      either on this board or on the Off Topic board.

      Ray Shapp

      > Incidentally, off topic, the installation of Internet Explorer 5.5
      > has given me greyed out DUN password hell.

      I've been thinking about upgrading to that on my Win98SE system. Tell me
      about
      it off-list, so I can consider whether it's worth the hassle.
    • -=/ Cees /=-
      Hello Greg, Tuesday, October 10, 2000, 11:43:19 AM, you wrote: GC I ve been thinking about upgrading to that on my Win98SE system. Tell me about GC it
      Message 2 of 11 , Oct 10, 2000
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        Hello Greg,

        Tuesday, October 10, 2000, 11:43:19 AM, you wrote:

        GC> I've been thinking about upgrading to that on my Win98SE system. Tell me about
        GC> it off-list, so I can consider whether it's worth the hassle.

        Don't talk about win98 please. It gives me stomach-ache. <g> Better choose
        Win2k Professional then!

        -=/ Cees /=-
        http://dierhulp.nb.nu/

        I'm killing time, wasting space, and going through a phase.
      • Grant
        ... I m sure what you are trying to say here but.. What matters is the document. Documents marked up in html3.2 have limited functionality...formatting,
        Message 3 of 11 , Oct 10, 2000
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          > >True! but one of the main purposes of XHTML is to prepare from
          > >new technologies.
          > >If people don't update their sites to the new standard, we'll all
          > >have to continue to suffer the bug ridden bloat ware that is
          > >modern software as it struggles to cope with every long forgotten
          > >old "standard" and proprietary code.
          >
          > I prefer to wait on the new software and then when they create
          > the latest and greatest HTML for it and they get all the kinks
          > worked out - change all my code then.

          I'm sure what you are trying to say here but..
          What matters is the document.
          Documents marked up in html3.2 have limited functionality...formatting,
          hyperlinks and image insertion etc.
          Documents marked up in html 4 have more functionality...better formatting
          via css, accessibility concerns addressed, clearly defined rules for element
          inclusion via dtds so avoiding propriety elements etc.
          Documents marked up in html 5 have no functionality ... there will be no
          html 5
          Documents marked up in xhtml 1 have still more functionality ... all the
          stuff for html4 plus documents can treated as an object, have XML
          process-ability etc.
          Documents marked up in xhtml 1.1 will have still more functionality ... all
          the stuff for xhtml plus extensibility via modularisation etc.

          The browser is just the software side of things that parses the mark-up
          ,renders these documents, and hosts a scripting engine to enable scripting
          of these same documents. In fact you could imagine a near future when a
          fully bloated browser becomes less important in accessing documents on the
          web.
          As document creators if we stick to a W3C's standard mark-up then the
          information contained in these documents will last in spite of browser
          variations.

          There is one good reason for using html4 and xhtml1 (strict dtd) as opposed
          to html3.2 if you are to use a text editor like Notetab to create html
          documents .
          Readability ..If you learn to use 'font' here there and every where your
          document will soon become an unreadable mess in a text editor.
          Another good reason for using html4 and xhtml1 (strict dtd) is that you
          learn to construct html documents in a way in which you don't have to
          unlearn latter.
          If you learn to construct html as a bunch of formatting hacks. "table" as
          formatting layout mechanisms, "blockquote" as a formatting hack mechanism to
          indent text then the syntactic meaning of "table" or "blockquote" is lost.
          The meaning is lost to such an extent as I have heard Jody a say about using
          blockquote to indent text .. "that's what I thought it was for"
        • Jody
          Hi Grant, ... I m saying that I ll wait until I absolutely have to before I go changing 1000s of web pages, because I suspect there will be many more changes
          Message 4 of 11 , Oct 10, 2000
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            Hi Grant,

            >> I prefer to wait on the new software and then when they create
            >> the latest and greatest HTML for it and they get all the kinks
            >> worked out - change all my code then.
            >
            >I'm sure what you are trying to say here but.

            I'm saying that I'll wait until I absolutely have to before I go
            changing 1000s of web pages, because I suspect there will be many
            more changes before that time comes.

            >Documents marked up in html3.2 have limited
            >functionality...formatting, hyperlinks and image insertion etc.
            >Documents marked up in html 4 have more functionality...better
            >formatting via css, accessibility concerns addressed, clearly
            >defined rules for element inclusion via dtds so avoiding
            >propriety elements etc.

            Yes, but for us simpleminded folk, we don't need all that extra
            stuff. I build very basic web pages because that is all I need.

            >If you learn to construct html as a bunch of formatting hacks.
            >"table" as formatting layout mechanisms, "blockquote" as a
            >formatting hack mechanism to indent text then the syntactic
            >meaning of "table" or "blockquote" is lost. The meaning is lost
            >to such an extent as I have heard Jody a say about using
            >blockquote to indent text .. "that's what I thought it was for"

            And I still say that is what it is for, to indent. I will agree
            that it is to be used by those of you who go by the book as only
            to set off a quoted paragraph, but if I want to use it for
            indenting on both sides I really do not care what the book says.
            <g> I understand there are a number of web pro's like you that
            have to have it done the way it is written and more power to
            you!!! However, if I am pleased with a "hack" job in the eyes of
            the pro's that is my business. I'm sorry if you look at my code
            sometime and puke. <bg>

            I do appreciate your input and perhaps someday you will convert
            me, but now, I am simply a hobbyist HTMLer that wants to get his
            pages up as fast and easy as possible making them somewhat
            presentable. I am only presenting the way I think about it - not
            the way it should be done.

            Stevie's HTMLib (my emphasis):

            "The BLOCKQUOTE element is used to contain text quoted from
            another source.

            A typical rendering would be a slight extra **_left and right
            indent_**, and/or italic font. The BLOCKQUOTE element causes a
            paragraph break, and typically provides space above and below the
            quote."

            Happy HTML'n!
            Jody

            http://www.sureword.com/notetab

            The NoteTab and Html List...
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          • Greg Chapman
            Hi Jody, I hate to join the Let s bash Jody brigade, but as we re into blockquoting... ... From:
            Message 5 of 11 , Oct 11, 2000
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              Hi Jody,

              I hate to join the "Let's bash Jody" brigade, but as we're into blockquoting...

              > Stevie's HTMLib (my emphasis):
              >
              > "The BLOCKQUOTE element is used to contain text quoted from
              > another source.
              >
              > A typical rendering would be a slight extra **_left and right
              > indent_**, and/or italic font. The BLOCKQUOTE element causes a
              > paragraph break, and typically provides space above and below the
              > quote."

              From: http://www.htmlhelp.com/reference/html40/BLOCK/blockquote.html

              Authors should not use BLOCKQUOTE for unquoted material just to achieve a block
              indentation in common visual browsers. With the rise of style sheets, such
              misuse of BLOCKQUOTE will become less reliable while also reducing the author's
              ability to fully exploit the power of style sheets. Cascading Style Sheets
              provide the margin-left property to indent a block.

              In short you'd be much better off with something like:

              .inset{
              margin-left: 10%;
              margin-right: 10%;
              }

              in a style tag/sheet and a <p class="inset">

              It really isn't that difficult! Honest!

              Greg
            • Adrian/ Rosemary Worsfold
              11/10/00 14:10:01 Greg said In short you d be much better off with something like: .inset{ margin-left: 10%; margin-right: 10%; } in a style tag/sheet and a
              Message 6 of 11 , Oct 11, 2000
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                11/10/00 14:10:01

                Greg said

                In short you'd be much better off with something like:

                .inset{
                margin-left: 10%;
                margin-right: 10%;
                }

                in a style tag/sheet and a <p class="inset">

                OR I'd prefer the easier still <span style="margin-left:10%>text block</span> which
                avoids the need for setting up an internal style sheet: the only time I prefer an internal
                style sheet is where the span style is complicated and repeats a lot.

                Adrian Worsfold

                web: http://www.pluralist.co.uk
                email: adrian@...
              • Adrian/ Rosemary Worsfold
                11/10/00 16:02:17 That was an odd message for me. Honest, I put: opening angle bracket span style= margin-left: etc then close angle brackets, a text then
                Message 7 of 11 , Oct 11, 2000
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                  11/10/00 16:02:17

                  That was an odd message for me.

                  Honest, I put:

                  opening angle bracket span style="margin-left: etc" then close angle brackets, a text
                  then open angle brackets forward slash and span close angle brackets which is better
                  than a style sheet div unless the span is complex and repeats a lot.

                  Adrian Worsfold

                  web: http://www.pluralist.co.uk
                  email: adrian@...
                • Jody
                  Hi Greg, ... No problem - I ve been bashed by the best. ;) ... Ask me if I care what he/she/they think/say, etc. about how I want to write my code. ;) ... I ve
                  Message 8 of 11 , Oct 11, 2000
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                    Hi Greg,

                    >I hate to join the "Let's bash Jody" brigade, but as we're into blockquoting...

                    No problem - I've been bashed by the best. ;)

                    >From: http://www.htmlhelp.com/reference/html40/BLOCK/blockquote.html
                    >
                    >Authors should not use BLOCKQUOTE for unquoted material just to
                    >achieve a block indentation in common visual browsers. With the
                    >rise of style sheets,

                    Ask me if I care what he/she/they think/say, etc. about how I want to
                    write my code. ;)

                    >In short you'd be much better off with something like:
                    >
                    >.inset{
                    > margin-left: 10%;
                    > margin-right: 10%;
                    >}
                    >
                    >in a style tag/sheet and a <p class="inset">
                    >
                    >It really isn't that difficult! Honest!

                    I've use that and <BLOCKQUOTE>. <BLOCKQUOTE> is much easier.
                    The only reason I went to .css on some of my pages is because of
                    Opera and I might just get in the mood someday to change it back
                    to <BLOCKQUOTE>. <g>

                    Happy HTML'n!
                    Jody

                    http://www.sureword.com/notetab

                    The NoteTab and Html List...
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