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XHML and all that

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  • Adrian/ Rosemary Worsfold
    10/10/00 02:05:02 What puzzles me, with a thousand and one web pages under my belt, and a few billion by others around the world, is that if XHTML with / tags
    Message 1 of 11 , Oct 9, 2000
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      10/10/00 02:05:02

      What puzzles me, with a thousand and one web pages under my belt, and a few billion
      by others around the world, is that if XHTML with /> tags etc and lower case was to
      become compulsory, most web pages in the world would cease to work. As this isn't
      going to happen, a great many people will continue to use even HTML 3.2 and without
      declaring a "transitional" or otherwise tag. So I move to a mix of HTML 4, HTML 3.2 and
      now this XHTML (so called "well formed HTML") and use Note Tab accordingly, now,
      but I hardly think this is going to make that much difference otherwise the web would
      shrink by 99%.

      I use HTML 4 and style sheets because it allows better formatting. With Print Preview in
      Internet Explorer I'm even printing work directly out from HTML files because of the style
      sheets in my teacher training work, as well as putting these on my website.

      Incidentally, off topic, the installation of Internet Explorer 5.5 has given me greyed out
      DUN password hell.

      Adrian Worsfold

      web: http://www.pluralist.co.uk
      email: adrian@...
    • Greg Chapman
      Adrian/ Rosemary Worsfold said... ... True! but one of the main purposes of XHTML is to prepare from new technologies. If people don t update their sites to
      Message 2 of 11 , Oct 10, 2000
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        Adrian/ Rosemary Worsfold said...

        > What puzzles me, with a thousand and one web pages under my belt, and
        > a few billion by others around the world, is that if XHTML with />
        > tags etc and lower case was to become compulsory, most web pages in
        > the world would cease to work. As this isn't going to happen, a
        > great many people will continue to use even HTML 3.2 and without
        > declaring a "transitional" or otherwise tag.

        True! but one of the main purposes of XHTML is to prepare from new technologies.
        If people don't update their sites to the new standard, we'll all have to
        continue to suffer the bug ridden bloatware that is modern software as it
        struggles to cope with every long forgotten old "standard" and proprietary code.
        So as I update anything I'd prefer to use the latest standard, especially when
        it can be done on the fly for me by my authoring tools (NoteTab Pro, Tidy and
        Top Style Lite).

        > Incidentally, off topic, the installation of Internet Explorer 5.5
        > has given me greyed out DUN password hell.

        I've been thinking about upgrading to that on my Win98SE system. Tell me about
        it off-list, so I can consider whether it's worth the hassle.

        Greg
      • Jody
        Hi Greg, ... I prefer to wait on the new software and then when they create the latest and greatest HTML for it and they get all the kinks worked out - change
        Message 3 of 11 , Oct 10, 2000
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          Hi Greg,

          >> What puzzles me, with a thousand and one web pages under my
          >> belt, and a few billion by others around the world, is that if
          >> XHTML with /tags etc and lower case was to become compulsory,
          >> most web pages in the world would cease to work.

          >True! but one of the main purposes of XHTML is to prepare from
          >new technologies.
          >If people don't update their sites to the new standard, we'll all
          >have to continue to suffer the bug ridden bloatware that is
          >modern software as it struggles to cope with every long forgotten
          >old "standard" and proprietary code.

          I prefer to wait on the new software and then when they create
          the latest and greatest HTML for it and they get all the kinks
          worked out - change all my code then.

          Happy HTML'n!
          Jody

          http://www.sureword.com/notetab

          The NoteTab and Html List...
          mailto:Ntb-html-Subscribe@...
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        • Ray Shapp
          Greg and others, I also am considering the upgrade. Please continue this thread online either on this board or on the Off Topic board. Ray Shapp ... I ve been
          Message 4 of 11 , Oct 10, 2000
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            Greg and others,

            I also am considering the upgrade. Please continue this thread online
            either on this board or on the Off Topic board.

            Ray Shapp

            > Incidentally, off topic, the installation of Internet Explorer 5.5
            > has given me greyed out DUN password hell.

            I've been thinking about upgrading to that on my Win98SE system. Tell me
            about
            it off-list, so I can consider whether it's worth the hassle.
          • -=/ Cees /=-
            Hello Greg, Tuesday, October 10, 2000, 11:43:19 AM, you wrote: GC I ve been thinking about upgrading to that on my Win98SE system. Tell me about GC it
            Message 5 of 11 , Oct 10, 2000
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              Hello Greg,

              Tuesday, October 10, 2000, 11:43:19 AM, you wrote:

              GC> I've been thinking about upgrading to that on my Win98SE system. Tell me about
              GC> it off-list, so I can consider whether it's worth the hassle.

              Don't talk about win98 please. It gives me stomach-ache. <g> Better choose
              Win2k Professional then!

              -=/ Cees /=-
              http://dierhulp.nb.nu/

              I'm killing time, wasting space, and going through a phase.
            • Grant
              ... I m sure what you are trying to say here but.. What matters is the document. Documents marked up in html3.2 have limited functionality...formatting,
              Message 6 of 11 , Oct 10, 2000
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                > >True! but one of the main purposes of XHTML is to prepare from
                > >new technologies.
                > >If people don't update their sites to the new standard, we'll all
                > >have to continue to suffer the bug ridden bloat ware that is
                > >modern software as it struggles to cope with every long forgotten
                > >old "standard" and proprietary code.
                >
                > I prefer to wait on the new software and then when they create
                > the latest and greatest HTML for it and they get all the kinks
                > worked out - change all my code then.

                I'm sure what you are trying to say here but..
                What matters is the document.
                Documents marked up in html3.2 have limited functionality...formatting,
                hyperlinks and image insertion etc.
                Documents marked up in html 4 have more functionality...better formatting
                via css, accessibility concerns addressed, clearly defined rules for element
                inclusion via dtds so avoiding propriety elements etc.
                Documents marked up in html 5 have no functionality ... there will be no
                html 5
                Documents marked up in xhtml 1 have still more functionality ... all the
                stuff for html4 plus documents can treated as an object, have XML
                process-ability etc.
                Documents marked up in xhtml 1.1 will have still more functionality ... all
                the stuff for xhtml plus extensibility via modularisation etc.

                The browser is just the software side of things that parses the mark-up
                ,renders these documents, and hosts a scripting engine to enable scripting
                of these same documents. In fact you could imagine a near future when a
                fully bloated browser becomes less important in accessing documents on the
                web.
                As document creators if we stick to a W3C's standard mark-up then the
                information contained in these documents will last in spite of browser
                variations.

                There is one good reason for using html4 and xhtml1 (strict dtd) as opposed
                to html3.2 if you are to use a text editor like Notetab to create html
                documents .
                Readability ..If you learn to use 'font' here there and every where your
                document will soon become an unreadable mess in a text editor.
                Another good reason for using html4 and xhtml1 (strict dtd) is that you
                learn to construct html documents in a way in which you don't have to
                unlearn latter.
                If you learn to construct html as a bunch of formatting hacks. "table" as
                formatting layout mechanisms, "blockquote" as a formatting hack mechanism to
                indent text then the syntactic meaning of "table" or "blockquote" is lost.
                The meaning is lost to such an extent as I have heard Jody a say about using
                blockquote to indent text .. "that's what I thought it was for"
              • Jody
                Hi Grant, ... I m saying that I ll wait until I absolutely have to before I go changing 1000s of web pages, because I suspect there will be many more changes
                Message 7 of 11 , Oct 10, 2000
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                  Hi Grant,

                  >> I prefer to wait on the new software and then when they create
                  >> the latest and greatest HTML for it and they get all the kinks
                  >> worked out - change all my code then.
                  >
                  >I'm sure what you are trying to say here but.

                  I'm saying that I'll wait until I absolutely have to before I go
                  changing 1000s of web pages, because I suspect there will be many
                  more changes before that time comes.

                  >Documents marked up in html3.2 have limited
                  >functionality...formatting, hyperlinks and image insertion etc.
                  >Documents marked up in html 4 have more functionality...better
                  >formatting via css, accessibility concerns addressed, clearly
                  >defined rules for element inclusion via dtds so avoiding
                  >propriety elements etc.

                  Yes, but for us simpleminded folk, we don't need all that extra
                  stuff. I build very basic web pages because that is all I need.

                  >If you learn to construct html as a bunch of formatting hacks.
                  >"table" as formatting layout mechanisms, "blockquote" as a
                  >formatting hack mechanism to indent text then the syntactic
                  >meaning of "table" or "blockquote" is lost. The meaning is lost
                  >to such an extent as I have heard Jody a say about using
                  >blockquote to indent text .. "that's what I thought it was for"

                  And I still say that is what it is for, to indent. I will agree
                  that it is to be used by those of you who go by the book as only
                  to set off a quoted paragraph, but if I want to use it for
                  indenting on both sides I really do not care what the book says.
                  <g> I understand there are a number of web pro's like you that
                  have to have it done the way it is written and more power to
                  you!!! However, if I am pleased with a "hack" job in the eyes of
                  the pro's that is my business. I'm sorry if you look at my code
                  sometime and puke. <bg>

                  I do appreciate your input and perhaps someday you will convert
                  me, but now, I am simply a hobbyist HTMLer that wants to get his
                  pages up as fast and easy as possible making them somewhat
                  presentable. I am only presenting the way I think about it - not
                  the way it should be done.

                  Stevie's HTMLib (my emphasis):

                  "The BLOCKQUOTE element is used to contain text quoted from
                  another source.

                  A typical rendering would be a slight extra **_left and right
                  indent_**, and/or italic font. The BLOCKQUOTE element causes a
                  paragraph break, and typically provides space above and below the
                  quote."

                  Happy HTML'n!
                  Jody

                  http://www.sureword.com/notetab

                  The NoteTab and Html List...
                  mailto:Ntb-html-Subscribe@...
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                • Greg Chapman
                  Hi Jody, I hate to join the Let s bash Jody brigade, but as we re into blockquoting... ... From:
                  Message 8 of 11 , Oct 11, 2000
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                    Hi Jody,

                    I hate to join the "Let's bash Jody" brigade, but as we're into blockquoting...

                    > Stevie's HTMLib (my emphasis):
                    >
                    > "The BLOCKQUOTE element is used to contain text quoted from
                    > another source.
                    >
                    > A typical rendering would be a slight extra **_left and right
                    > indent_**, and/or italic font. The BLOCKQUOTE element causes a
                    > paragraph break, and typically provides space above and below the
                    > quote."

                    From: http://www.htmlhelp.com/reference/html40/BLOCK/blockquote.html

                    Authors should not use BLOCKQUOTE for unquoted material just to achieve a block
                    indentation in common visual browsers. With the rise of style sheets, such
                    misuse of BLOCKQUOTE will become less reliable while also reducing the author's
                    ability to fully exploit the power of style sheets. Cascading Style Sheets
                    provide the margin-left property to indent a block.

                    In short you'd be much better off with something like:

                    .inset{
                    margin-left: 10%;
                    margin-right: 10%;
                    }

                    in a style tag/sheet and a <p class="inset">

                    It really isn't that difficult! Honest!

                    Greg
                  • Adrian/ Rosemary Worsfold
                    11/10/00 14:10:01 Greg said In short you d be much better off with something like: .inset{ margin-left: 10%; margin-right: 10%; } in a style tag/sheet and a
                    Message 9 of 11 , Oct 11, 2000
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                      11/10/00 14:10:01

                      Greg said

                      In short you'd be much better off with something like:

                      .inset{
                      margin-left: 10%;
                      margin-right: 10%;
                      }

                      in a style tag/sheet and a <p class="inset">

                      OR I'd prefer the easier still <span style="margin-left:10%>text block</span> which
                      avoids the need for setting up an internal style sheet: the only time I prefer an internal
                      style sheet is where the span style is complicated and repeats a lot.

                      Adrian Worsfold

                      web: http://www.pluralist.co.uk
                      email: adrian@...
                    • Adrian/ Rosemary Worsfold
                      11/10/00 16:02:17 That was an odd message for me. Honest, I put: opening angle bracket span style= margin-left: etc then close angle brackets, a text then
                      Message 10 of 11 , Oct 11, 2000
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                        11/10/00 16:02:17

                        That was an odd message for me.

                        Honest, I put:

                        opening angle bracket span style="margin-left: etc" then close angle brackets, a text
                        then open angle brackets forward slash and span close angle brackets which is better
                        than a style sheet div unless the span is complex and repeats a lot.

                        Adrian Worsfold

                        web: http://www.pluralist.co.uk
                        email: adrian@...
                      • Jody
                        Hi Greg, ... No problem - I ve been bashed by the best. ;) ... Ask me if I care what he/she/they think/say, etc. about how I want to write my code. ;) ... I ve
                        Message 11 of 11 , Oct 11, 2000
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                          Hi Greg,

                          >I hate to join the "Let's bash Jody" brigade, but as we're into blockquoting...

                          No problem - I've been bashed by the best. ;)

                          >From: http://www.htmlhelp.com/reference/html40/BLOCK/blockquote.html
                          >
                          >Authors should not use BLOCKQUOTE for unquoted material just to
                          >achieve a block indentation in common visual browsers. With the
                          >rise of style sheets,

                          Ask me if I care what he/she/they think/say, etc. about how I want to
                          write my code. ;)

                          >In short you'd be much better off with something like:
                          >
                          >.inset{
                          > margin-left: 10%;
                          > margin-right: 10%;
                          >}
                          >
                          >in a style tag/sheet and a <p class="inset">
                          >
                          >It really isn't that difficult! Honest!

                          I've use that and <BLOCKQUOTE>. <BLOCKQUOTE> is much easier.
                          The only reason I went to .css on some of my pages is because of
                          Opera and I might just get in the mood someday to change it back
                          to <BLOCKQUOTE>. <g>

                          Happy HTML'n!
                          Jody

                          http://www.sureword.com/notetab

                          The NoteTab and Html List...
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