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Re: [NH] Embedding ... or is it?

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  • Stephen Riddle
    Hi, all, I was recently trying to do something similiar for a help menu for a small site. Here is what I found out (I ll omit my cussin ) Is
    Message 1 of 26 , Oct 9, 2000
      Hi, all,
      I was recently trying to do something similiar for a help menu for a small
      site. Here is what I found out (I'll omit my cussin')
      <embed></embed> Is supposed to work with anything but html pages. However
      support for this stinks. The official replacement for <embed></embed> is
      <object></object> which supposedly will embed anything, but of course almost
      all older browsers than about six months old do not support it, and even those
      don't necessarily do things as expected.
      <iframe></iframe> is an embedding element specifically for html documents and
      works well, I think in Netscape 5+ and Explorer 3+ or so, but not for Opera
      (which I don't have, but am reading a good book.)
      For Netscape you can use the <layer></layer> element to embed another html
      document.
      It all depends on how inclusive or exclusive you want to make your final
      product.
      Trying to be the most inclusive possible, I came up with this skeleton
      document:

      <html>
      <head>
      </head>
      <body>
      Page content.
      <!-- In Netscape 3+ browsers, you can access
      HTML documents using the src attribute
      of the layer element. -->
      <layer src="layersrc.html">
      <!-- Anything in the nolayer element will be
      skipped by Netscape 5 as well as
      earlier versions of Netscape. Even
      though Netscape 5 recognizes the iframe
      element, placing it inside the nolayer
      element keeps you from viewing
      redundant content. -->
      <nolayer>
      <!-- All the modern browsers,
      including, hopefully, new releases
      of Opera will be able to display
      iframe content. -->
      <iframe src="layersrc.html" />
      <!-- And just in case up and
      coming browsers will not be
      able to display the iframe content,
      and to include anybody who is using
      Lynx or Netscape 2 or IE 2 or some
      browser I've never heard of. -->
      <noiframe>
      Please check out
      <a href="alternateorthesamelayersrc.html">this
      page</a> to see your missed
      content, as your browser is
      supporting neither inline
      frames nor layers, and I'd
      hate for you to miss out on
      it.
      </noiframe>
      </nolayer>
      </layer>
      </body>
      </html>

      Both the layer elements and iframe elements can take height and width
      attributes. If you don't specify them the browser will decide for you, and
      you might not like the choice. Iframe always has scrollbars unless you ask it
      not to have them, and this might detract from your seamlessness. I think I've
      just about run dry.
      I imagine server side includes would be simpler to implement, but I don't have
      a lot of experience with them. In Netscape, there are a couple more ways I
      found to embed html documents using DHTML, but IE did not support them very
      well.
      And yes, like Lotta said, there's probably more. . .
      What I eventually did was us DHTML to display help content on a small div
      element which functioned as a layer accesible to both Netscape and I.E. The
      whole site was geared toward DHTML, after all, I'm proud of whatever I can do,
      but I tried to do it in such a way that older browsers just would not see
      they were missing anything after all I don't want to insult anyone in their
      choice of browsers.
      Good luck,
      Stephen
    • David Ash
      ... Thanks for all that, Stephen. Seems there are few paths that a helpful person has not trodden already, cussin as necessary. ... In that case the HTML
      Message 2 of 26 , Oct 9, 2000
        > Here is what I found out (I'll omit my cussin') ...

        Thanks for all that, Stephen. Seems there are few paths that a helpful
        person has not trodden already, cussin' as necessary.

        > <embed></embed> Is supposed to work
        > with anything but html pages

        In that case the HTML Reference Library is definitely misleading when it
        says: "The <EMBED> element will allow you to embed documents, or
        objects of any type." I even tried it with a plain .TXT file, since
        text was all I was trying to insert. Nothing doing. (That was before
        Lotta's suggestion of using frames.)

        My own description of <EMBED> would be as follows: "The function of the
        <EMBED> element is to bring up a message telling you about yet another
        plugin you don't have on your system and are probably better off
        without."

        D+
      • Lotta
        Hello, ... Ha ha! That was good! Just wanted to add that IFRAME is not supported by NN 4.5 and as Stephen said Opera does not support it. BTW I didn t know it
        Message 3 of 26 , Oct 9, 2000
          Hello,

          Stephen wrote:
          >Trying to be the most inclusive possible, I came up with this skeleton
          >document:


          Ha ha! That was good!

          Just wanted to add that IFRAME is not supported by NN 4.5 and as Stephen
          said Opera does not support it. BTW I didn't know it is now included in the
          standard. That should mean that Opera will support it ASP (as much as they
          brag about supporting the standard they have to.)

          Object is supposed to embed HTML files as well (and does in IE and Opera).
          See the w3c link below.

          It is also supposed to substitute <IMG> (and does in Opera or if you use IE
          and like your pics with scroll bars. Does not in NN4.5).

          For sound I guess EMBED (maybe backed up with bgsound) is the best choice
          even if non standard. IS there a standard for background sound?


          It's a wonderful world!

          Lotta

          Objects, Images, and Applets in HTML documents:
          http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/objects.html

          OBJECT - Embedded Object:
          http://www.htmlhelp.com/reference/html40/special/object.html
        • Red Leader
          Does your web host support Server Side Includes? (SSI) I would find out as I think this is exactly what you re looking for. You can include html, text,
          Message 4 of 26 , Oct 9, 2000
            Does your web host support Server Side Includes? (SSI) I would find out
            as I think this is exactly what you're looking for. You can include
            html, text, whatever and of course it works with all browsers as
            everything is done on the server. The page extensions will be .shtml
            instead of .html. Basically you can write a skeleton page and put
            <!--#include file="includefile.htm" --> and the page that the server
            sends out will insert the text or html file where you told it to. Check
            out
            http://www.bignosebird.com/ssi.shtml
            It does put some extra processing load on the server of course, which is
            why some hosts don't support it.

            ---
            Emmett Hawkins
          • Larry Hamilton
            Hey All, A similar functionality can be gained with PHP. I am just now getting up to some semblance of speed with it. I just bought the book, PHP Fast & Easy
            Message 5 of 26 , Oct 9, 2000
              Hey All,

              A similar functionality can be gained with PHP. I am just now getting up to
              some semblance of speed with it. I just bought the book, "PHP Fast & Easy
              Web Development, by Julie C. Meloni, Pub. Prima Tech (CD with PHP, MySQL,
              Apache for Win & Linux included). I found her web site
              [http://www.thickbook.com] a couple months ago, and she gave the clearest,
              simplest explanation of how to get PHP, MySQL, and Apache to talk to each
              other. My PC is Win95, but the web site is hosted on Unix, since it is
              cheaper. The examples she gives in the book are real-world applications
              that can easily be modified to suit a variety of needs.

              I do not normally get excited about computer books, but this one is simple
              enough for total beginners, but has enough real examples to help the more
              advanced learn something.
              Sort of like what my calculus book never had in college, a complicated
              enough example to help you figure out the problem that only the math lovers
              ever got right. ;-)

              If you have a web host that has PHP, it is simple enough for the beginner
              to put to use. I look forward to being able to have truly browser neutral
              pages, without spending all my time coding pages.

              Another thing that might do what is discussed previously in this thread is
              XML, something Grant has shared a lot of. (PHP and other server-side
              languages can format pages for XML purposes, another thing I look forward
              to figuring out, since it allows for easy communication of various data
              formats.

              HTH,


              Lawrence M. (Larry) Hamilton, Jr.
              Webmaster Hamilton National Genealogical Society, Inc.
              webmaster@...
              http://www.hamiltongensociety.org/
            • Stephen Riddle
              ... TEE Hee ;-) You re soo right
              Message 6 of 26 , Oct 11, 2000
                David Ash wrote:

                >
                > My own description of <EMBED> would be as follows: "The function of the
                > <EMBED> element is to bring up a message telling you about yet another
                > plugin you don't have on your system and are probably better off
                > without."
                >
                > D+
                >

                TEE Hee ;-) You're soo right
              • Stephen Riddle
                ... You mean besides the back button? I believe is the new W3C standard for that, but embed works well. If you want the viewer to have lots
                Message 7 of 26 , Oct 11, 2000
                  > Lotta wrote

                  > For sound I guess EMBED (maybe backed up with bgsound) is the best choice
                  > even if non standard. IS there a standard for background sound?

                  You mean besides the back button?
                  I believe <object></object> is the new W3C standard for that, but embed works
                  well.
                  If you want the viewer to have lots of control, <a
                  href="somekindofsoundfile.midi">Click here to hear beautiful music</a> works.
                  I've not played with it much with DHTML, but it usually brings up the media
                  player. I don't know if this is standard, but it seems to work.
                  Stephen
                • Lotta
                  Hello again Stephen, Have you made a Clip yet of the All Browsers Embed code? I loved that one. A wonderful illustration of the state of things. ... Yes it
                  Message 8 of 26 , Oct 11, 2000
                    Hello again Stephen,

                    Have you made a Clip yet of the 'All Browsers Embed' code? I loved that
                    one. A wonderful illustration of the state of things.

                    At 00:18 2000-10-12, you wrote:
                    > > For sound I guess EMBED (maybe backed up with bgsound) is the best choice
                    > > even if non standard. IS there a standard for background sound?
                    >
                    >You mean besides the back button?
                    >I believe <object></object> is the new W3C standard for that, but embed works
                    >well.

                    Yes it is. OBJECT is even preferred over IMG, I think. But the support is
                    poor. Guess I meant if there has been a working standard at any
                    time. BGSOUND and EMBED is IE/NN stuff.

                    >What gets me worried, is that the standards do keep changing. I'd just
                    >once like to be "caught up".

                    Agreed! I would like to learn all the ins and outs (and the tricks too!) of
                    one language, just to feel that I master it all. But as you say, there is
                    no use to do that.


                    BTW (acronym!) Jody use to have bad hair days. Just want to tell that I
                    have a bad eyes day with everything jumping around. I noted that I earlier
                    said that you all should go and read the WDG page when I meant that Wayland
                    could read it all at...So if I write peculiar things at times it is,
                    mostly, not intended.


                    Good night all,

                    Lotta
                  • Lotta
                    Stephen, ... But of course! Every known language and for every possible purpose. Make it real small and neat. I expect you to send the Clip to me as soon as
                    Message 9 of 26 , Oct 12, 2000
                      Stephen,

                      >Should I include parameters for Java or
                      >other stuff.

                      But of course! Every known language and for every possible purpose. Make it
                      real small and neat. I expect you to send the Clip to me as soon as you are
                      done.

                      Hurry up, will ya! :-)))))

                      Lotta
                    • Stephen Riddle
                      Lotta wrote, ... Gawrsh, thanks, No, didn t even think of it, but I could. Should I include parameters for Java or other stuff. I don t do Java, (at least
                      Message 10 of 26 , Oct 12, 2000
                        Lotta wrote,


                        >
                        >
                        > Have you made a Clip yet of the 'All Browsers Embed' code? I loved that
                        > one. A wonderful illustration of the state of things.

                        Gawrsh, thanks,
                        No, didn't even think of it, but I could. Should I include parameters for Java or
                        other stuff. I don't do Java, (at least yet) and am afraid I'd leave something
                        out.
                        It might get really messy trying to think of EVERYTHING.
                        Happy every darn thang,
                        Steph
                      • -=/ Cees /=-
                        Hello Lotta, Thursday, October 12, 2000, 8:08:28 PM, you wrote: L Stephen, ... L But of course! Every known language and for every possible purpose. Make it
                        Message 11 of 26 , Oct 12, 2000
                          Hello Lotta,

                          Thursday, October 12, 2000, 8:08:28 PM, you wrote:

                          L> Stephen,

                          >>Should I include parameters for Java or
                          >>other stuff.

                          L> But of course! Every known language and for every possible purpose. Make it
                          L> real small and neat. I expect you to send the Clip to me as soon as you are
                          L> done.

                          L> Hurry up, will ya! :-)))))

                          Well I'm having contacts with a firm who'll are interested in me and letting
                          me do a course in Delphi. So.... <hint>

                          :-))

                          -=/ Cees /=-
                          http://dierhulp.nb.nu/

                          We call our dog Egypt coz' he leaves pyramids in the garden.
                        • Lotta
                          Hello Cees, ... Excellent! You guys do all the work and send me the result. I ll be waiting. ;-)) L AKA Lotta
                          Message 12 of 26 , Oct 12, 2000
                            Hello Cees,

                            >Well I'm having contacts with a firm who'll are interested in me and letting
                            >me do a course in Delphi. So.... <hint>

                            Excellent! You guys do all the work and send me the result. I'll be
                            waiting. ;-))

                            L AKA Lotta
                          • Stephen Riddle
                            ... Sometimes I think I m outa my league, lemme see, ... I ll get de books an brainz out an see whut I kin kum up with. When I get tired of it, I ll let you
                            Message 13 of 26 , Oct 12, 2000
                              Lotta wrote:

                              > Hello Cees,
                              >
                              > >Well I'm having contacts with a firm who'll are interested in me and letting
                              > >me do a course in Delphi. So.... <hint>
                              >
                              > Excellent! You guys do all the work and send me the result. I'll be
                              > waiting. ;-))
                              >
                              > L AKA Lotta
                              >

                              Sometimes I think I'm outa my league, lemme see,
                              >But of course! Every known language and for every possible purpose. Make it
                              >real small and neat. I expect you to send the Clip to me as soon as you are
                              >done.

                              >Hurry up, will ya! :-)))))

                              I'll get de books an' brainz out an see whut I kin kum up with. When I get tired of
                              it, I'll let you folks see if I've left anything out.
                              Stephen
                            • Lotta
                              Stephen, ... Oh no. .. Did you take me seriously? Geez...I m not that demanding. I found your All Browsers thing wonderful because it illustrated how mixed up
                              Message 14 of 26 , Oct 13, 2000
                                Stephen,

                                >I'll get de books an' brainz out an see whut I kin kum up with. When I get
                                >tired of
                                >it, I'll let you folks see if I've left anything out.

                                Oh no. .. Did you take me seriously? Geez...I'm not that demanding. I found
                                your All Browsers thing wonderful because it illustrated how mixed up
                                things are and I got carried away joking about it. I'm really sorry if you
                                took it as I asked you to really do it. Not to say I don't want to see if
                                you after all do...

                                If I knew a smilie for 'blushing' I would put it here.

                                Lotta
                              • Larry Thomas
                                Hi Lotta, ... Try Can you see the red ears? Regards, Larry larryt@commontech.net
                                Message 15 of 26 , Oct 13, 2000
                                  Hi Lotta,

                                  At 09:46 AM 10/13/2000 +0200, you wrote:
                                  >Stephen,
                                  >
                                  >If I knew a smilie for 'blushing' I would put it here.
                                  >
                                  >Lotta

                                  Try <*ê¿ê*>

                                  Can you see the red ears?

                                  Regards,

                                  Larry
                                  larryt@...
                                • Stephen Riddle
                                  ... . . . ... More to tee hee about. 8-) I knew you were joking, Lotta, I just got into the spirit of the thing. I am working on the clip anyhow. I spent a
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Oct 13, 2000
                                    Lotta wrote:

                                    > Stephen,
                                    >
                                    > >I'll get de books an' brainz out an see whut I kin kum up with. When I get
                                    > >tired of
                                    > >it, I'll let you folks see if I've left anything out.
                                    >
                                    > Oh no. .. Did you take me seriously? Geez...I'm not that demanding.

                                    . . .

                                    >
                                    > If I knew a smilie for 'blushing' I would put it here.
                                    >
                                    > Lotta
                                    >

                                    Larry said:
                                    >Try <*ê¿ê*>
                                    More to tee hee about. 8-)
                                    I knew you were joking, Lotta, I just got into the spirit of the thing. I am
                                    working on the clip anyhow. I spent a happy hour or two this morning just
                                    figuring out, if I was going to include EVERYTHING in potential HTML, what the
                                    nesting order should be. I'm afraid the clip will not be particularly short,
                                    because I'm not the best programmer, but I will work on being concise. Who
                                    knows, it could actually be a useful clip when all is said and done.
                                    Love and all that good stuff,
                                    Stephe
                                  • Lotta
                                    Stephen, ... Oh, good. You had me worried there for a while. I can fold my ears into their normal position then. (*ê¿ê*) Lotta
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Oct 13, 2000
                                      Stephen,

                                      >I knew you were joking, Lotta, I just got into the spirit of the thing.

                                      Oh, good. You had me worried there for a while. I can fold my ears into
                                      their normal position then.

                                      (*ê¿ê*) Lotta
                                    • Piotr Bienkowski
                                      ... What you use for ears above according to my locale gets transformed into Polish characters which would be said like: ehwzhehw Have a go at saying it :)
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Oct 14, 2000
                                        >
                                        > (*ężę*) Lotta

                                        What you use for ears above according to my locale gets transformed into
                                        Polish characters which would be said like: "ehwzhehw"

                                        Have a go at saying it :)

                                        Piotr
                                      • Lotta
                                        Stephen, ... But...I meant a one clicker! He he he! Jokes aside...boy, have you got a lot together. Took a look at Plans . Hope you make it. Eagerly awaiting
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Nov 8, 2000
                                          Stephen,

                                          >an all-browser, any object, any language, under any
                                          >conditions. . . embedding clip.

                                          But...I'meant a one clicker! He he he!
                                          Jokes aside...boy, have you got a lot together. Took a look at "Plans".
                                          Hope you make it.

                                          Eagerly awaiting the final version,
                                          Lotta
                                        • Stephen Riddle
                                          ... It s taking me a while. Lotta (jokingly, admitedly, but nevertheless) challenged me to write an all-browser, any object, any language, under any
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Nov 8, 2000
                                            > Hi all,

                                            It's taking me a while. Lotta (jokingly, admitedly, but nevertheless)
                                            challenged me to write an all-browser, any object, any language, under any
                                            conditions. . . embedding clip.
                                            I thought it would be easy. O.K., I thought it would be a learning experience.
                                            Well it is tedious, but I am making head way.
                                            However I'm not done.
                                            For one thing, it is a small clip library.
                                            Since I'm trying to make this one clip do everything, for every html element
                                            included, I'm including every attribute I know about (just about).
                                            Any way, I've zipped up the parts I have working into a library of clips for
                                            the embed, object, applet, param, iframe, layer, ilayer and img elements.
                                            I am including my plan for The All-Inclusive-All-Browser-Embed-Clip
                                            If any one thinks they can use them as they now are, if any one wants to see
                                            what I'm doing and give me comments on the final clip, or if any one just likes
                                            to click on links to see what happens, the zipped file is at:
                                            http://www.blueneptune.com/~stephen/embed.zip.
                                            It won't stay there forever, but if the final humongous clip is a good one,
                                            I'll offer it up to NoteTab's Clip Library Site.
                                            Thanks and happy embedding,
                                            Stephen
                                          • Stephen Riddle
                                            Hi all, I think my power animal is the turtle or the snail! I believe I have finished the embed clip library such as it is. If you want to try it out, it is
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Dec 9 9:20 PM
                                              Hi all,
                                              I think my power animal is the turtle or the snail!
                                              I believe I have finished the embed clip library such as it is.
                                              If you want to try it out, it is at:
                                              http://www.blueneptune.com/~stephen/embed.zip

                                              I've been testing it til I can't see straight and now can get only about half my
                                              plugins to work on only half my browsers, but I think this seems to be working as a
                                              set of clips.
                                              Lemme know what anyone thinks,
                                              be it comments, compliments or complaints. . .
                                              Thanks all
                                              Stephen
                                            • Lotta
                                              Hi Stephen the turtle , Hey, you ve finished it! Congratulations. Was your post delayed or did I overlook it? Found it some 50 posts back. I just downloaded
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Dec 12 8:55 AM
                                                Hi Stephen the turtle ,

                                                Hey, you've finished it! Congratulations. Was your post delayed or did I
                                                overlook it? Found it some 50 posts back. I just downloaded and will play
                                                with it later. Oh, thanks for the promotion to Flash expert .<G>

                                                Bye,
                                                Lotta
                                              • Stephen Riddle
                                                Hi Lotta, Thanks for the congrats. . . And yeah, at least you re more expert than me. Probably egroups delayed sending my email to you. I think they have a
                                                Message 23 of 26 , Dec 13 12:02 AM
                                                  Hi Lotta,
                                                  Thanks for the congrats. . .
                                                  And yeah, at least you're more expert than me.
                                                  Probably egroups delayed sending my email to you. I think they have a queue
                                                  thing going where not every one gets everything at the same time.
                                                  Bye yourself and happy solstice.
                                                  Stephen
                                                  Lotta wrote:

                                                  > Hi Stephen the turtle ,
                                                  >
                                                  > Hey, you've finished it! Congratulations. Was your post delayed or did I
                                                  > overlook it? Found it some 50 posts back. I just downloaded and will play
                                                  > with it later. Oh, thanks for the promotion to Flash expert .<G>
                                                  >
                                                  > Bye,
                                                  > Lotta
                                                  >
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