Re: [NH] Embedding ... or is it?
- Thanks, Lotta, that's a very helpful suggestion ... Frames will do just
what I want, and I can even add a link to the inserted material within
<NOFRAMES> for extra insurance.
If that third "really simple" way occurs to anyone, please let us know -
it could be handy in other circumstances.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lotta" <loro@...>
Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2000 2:28 PM
Subject: Re: [NH] Embedding ... or is it?
>I want to refer to a web page (called, say, tomorrow.htm) from a number
>of other pages so that the contents of tomorrow.htm are incorporated
>seamlessly in the page which is calling it ... in other words I don't
>want just to link to tomorrow.htm.
> From its description in the HTML Reference Library, the <EMBED> tag
>should do this. (Quote: "The <EMBED> element will allow you to embed
>documents, or objects of any type.") But IE5.5 is apparently ignoring
>The URL for tomorrow.htm works perfectly well in a standard hyperlink.
>How do I get the result I want? Hints and comments would be much
>appreciated. -- D+
I'm afraid that you misunderstand the purpose of EMBED. It is not to
html files, but 'objects'. That is, sound, video, java...
Example: <EMBED src="tralalala.wav"></EMBED>.
Depending on exactly what you want to do, you could use either Frames or
SSI (and some other luanguages). If your only concern is IE you can have
floating Frame, <IFRAME>. If your host supports SSI you can truly embed
content with the include Directive. Some info concerning that can be
There is probably as third, really simple way to do it ...But the above
what strikes me. Hope you get it to work!
- Hi, all,
I was recently trying to do something similiar for a help menu for a small
site. Here is what I found out (I'll omit my cussin')
<embed></embed> Is supposed to work with anything but html pages. However
support for this stinks. The official replacement for <embed></embed> is
<object></object> which supposedly will embed anything, but of course almost
all older browsers than about six months old do not support it, and even those
don't necessarily do things as expected.
<iframe></iframe> is an embedding element specifically for html documents and
works well, I think in Netscape 5+ and Explorer 3+ or so, but not for Opera
(which I don't have, but am reading a good book.)
For Netscape you can use the <layer></layer> element to embed another html
It all depends on how inclusive or exclusive you want to make your final
Trying to be the most inclusive possible, I came up with this skeleton
<!-- In Netscape 3+ browsers, you can access
HTML documents using the src attribute
of the layer element. -->
<!-- Anything in the nolayer element will be
skipped by Netscape 5 as well as
earlier versions of Netscape. Even
though Netscape 5 recognizes the iframe
element, placing it inside the nolayer
element keeps you from viewing
redundant content. -->
<!-- All the modern browsers,
including, hopefully, new releases
of Opera will be able to display
iframe content. -->
<iframe src="layersrc.html" />
<!-- And just in case up and
coming browsers will not be
able to display the iframe content,
and to include anybody who is using
Lynx or Netscape 2 or IE 2 or some
browser I've never heard of. -->
Please check out
page</a> to see your missed
content, as your browser is
supporting neither inline
frames nor layers, and I'd
hate for you to miss out on
Both the layer elements and iframe elements can take height and width
attributes. If you don't specify them the browser will decide for you, and
you might not like the choice. Iframe always has scrollbars unless you ask it
not to have them, and this might detract from your seamlessness. I think I've
just about run dry.
I imagine server side includes would be simpler to implement, but I don't have
a lot of experience with them. In Netscape, there are a couple more ways I
found to embed html documents using DHTML, but IE did not support them very
And yes, like Lotta said, there's probably more. . .
What I eventually did was us DHTML to display help content on a small div
element which functioned as a layer accesible to both Netscape and I.E. The
whole site was geared toward DHTML, after all, I'm proud of whatever I can do,
but I tried to do it in such a way that older browsers just would not see
they were missing anything after all I don't want to insult anyone in their
choice of browsers.
> Here is what I found out (I'll omit my cussin') ...Thanks for all that, Stephen. Seems there are few paths that a helpful
person has not trodden already, cussin' as necessary.
> <embed></embed> Is supposed to workIn that case the HTML Reference Library is definitely misleading when it
> with anything but html pages
says: "The <EMBED> element will allow you to embed documents, or
objects of any type." I even tried it with a plain .TXT file, since
text was all I was trying to insert. Nothing doing. (That was before
Lotta's suggestion of using frames.)
My own description of <EMBED> would be as follows: "The function of the
<EMBED> element is to bring up a message telling you about yet another
plugin you don't have on your system and are probably better off
>Trying to be the most inclusive possible, I came up with this skeletonHa ha! That was good!
Just wanted to add that IFRAME is not supported by NN 4.5 and as Stephen
said Opera does not support it. BTW I didn't know it is now included in the
standard. That should mean that Opera will support it ASP (as much as they
brag about supporting the standard they have to.)
Object is supposed to embed HTML files as well (and does in IE and Opera).
See the w3c link below.
It is also supposed to substitute <IMG> (and does in Opera or if you use IE
and like your pics with scroll bars. Does not in NN4.5).
For sound I guess EMBED (maybe backed up with bgsound) is the best choice
even if non standard. IS there a standard for background sound?
It's a wonderful world!
Objects, Images, and Applets in HTML documents:
OBJECT - Embedded Object:
- Does your web host support Server Side Includes? (SSI) I would find out
as I think this is exactly what you're looking for. You can include
html, text, whatever and of course it works with all browsers as
everything is done on the server. The page extensions will be .shtml
instead of .html. Basically you can write a skeleton page and put
<!--#include file="includefile.htm" --> and the page that the server
sends out will insert the text or html file where you told it to. Check
It does put some extra processing load on the server of course, which is
why some hosts don't support it.
- Hey All,
A similar functionality can be gained with PHP. I am just now getting up to
some semblance of speed with it. I just bought the book, "PHP Fast & Easy
Web Development, by Julie C. Meloni, Pub. Prima Tech (CD with PHP, MySQL,
Apache for Win & Linux included). I found her web site
[http://www.thickbook.com] a couple months ago, and she gave the clearest,
simplest explanation of how to get PHP, MySQL, and Apache to talk to each
other. My PC is Win95, but the web site is hosted on Unix, since it is
cheaper. The examples she gives in the book are real-world applications
that can easily be modified to suit a variety of needs.
I do not normally get excited about computer books, but this one is simple
enough for total beginners, but has enough real examples to help the more
advanced learn something.
Sort of like what my calculus book never had in college, a complicated
enough example to help you figure out the problem that only the math lovers
ever got right. ;-)
If you have a web host that has PHP, it is simple enough for the beginner
to put to use. I look forward to being able to have truly browser neutral
pages, without spending all my time coding pages.
Another thing that might do what is discussed previously in this thread is
XML, something Grant has shared a lot of. (PHP and other server-side
languages can format pages for XML purposes, another thing I look forward
to figuring out, since it allows for easy communication of various data
Lawrence M. (Larry) Hamilton, Jr.
Webmaster Hamilton National Genealogical Society, Inc.
- David Ash wrote:
>TEE Hee ;-) You're soo right
> My own description of <EMBED> would be as follows: "The function of the
> <EMBED> element is to bring up a message telling you about yet another
> plugin you don't have on your system and are probably better off
> Lotta wroteYou mean besides the back button?
> For sound I guess EMBED (maybe backed up with bgsound) is the best choice
> even if non standard. IS there a standard for background sound?
I believe <object></object> is the new W3C standard for that, but embed works
If you want the viewer to have lots of control, <a
href="somekindofsoundfile.midi">Click here to hear beautiful music</a> works.
I've not played with it much with DHTML, but it usually brings up the media
player. I don't know if this is standard, but it seems to work.
- Hello again Stephen,
Have you made a Clip yet of the 'All Browsers Embed' code? I loved that
one. A wonderful illustration of the state of things.
At 00:18 2000-10-12, you wrote:
> > For sound I guess EMBED (maybe backed up with bgsound) is the best choiceYes it is. OBJECT is even preferred over IMG, I think. But the support is
> > even if non standard. IS there a standard for background sound?
>You mean besides the back button?
>I believe <object></object> is the new W3C standard for that, but embed works
poor. Guess I meant if there has been a working standard at any
time. BGSOUND and EMBED is IE/NN stuff.
>What gets me worried, is that the standards do keep changing. I'd justAgreed! I would like to learn all the ins and outs (and the tricks too!) of
>once like to be "caught up".
one language, just to feel that I master it all. But as you say, there is
no use to do that.
BTW (acronym!) Jody use to have bad hair days. Just want to tell that I
have a bad eyes day with everything jumping around. I noted that I earlier
said that you all should go and read the WDG page when I meant that Wayland
could read it all at...So if I write peculiar things at times it is,
mostly, not intended.
Good night all,
>Should I include parameters for Java orBut of course! Every known language and for every possible purpose. Make it
real small and neat. I expect you to send the Clip to me as soon as you are
Hurry up, will ya! :-)))))
- Lotta wrote,
> Have you made a Clip yet of the 'All Browsers Embed' code? I loved that
> one. A wonderful illustration of the state of things.
No, didn't even think of it, but I could. Should I include parameters for Java or
other stuff. I don't do Java, (at least yet) and am afraid I'd leave something
It might get really messy trying to think of EVERYTHING.
Happy every darn thang,
- Hello Lotta,
Thursday, October 12, 2000, 8:08:28 PM, you wrote:
>>Should I include parameters for Java orL> But of course! Every known language and for every possible purpose. Make it
L> real small and neat. I expect you to send the Clip to me as soon as you are
L> Hurry up, will ya! :-)))))
Well I'm having contacts with a firm who'll are interested in me and letting
me do a course in Delphi. So.... <hint>
-=/ Cees /=-
We call our dog Egypt coz' he leaves pyramids in the garden.
- Hello Cees,
>Well I'm having contacts with a firm who'll are interested in me and lettingExcellent! You guys do all the work and send me the result. I'll be
>me do a course in Delphi. So.... <hint>
L AKA Lotta
- Lotta wrote:
> Hello Cees,Sometimes I think I'm outa my league, lemme see,
> >Well I'm having contacts with a firm who'll are interested in me and letting
> >me do a course in Delphi. So.... <hint>
> Excellent! You guys do all the work and send me the result. I'll be
> waiting. ;-))
> L AKA Lotta
>But of course! Every known language and for every possible purpose. Make itI'll get de books an' brainz out an see whut I kin kum up with. When I get tired of
>real small and neat. I expect you to send the Clip to me as soon as you are
>Hurry up, will ya! :-)))))
it, I'll let you folks see if I've left anything out.
>I'll get de books an' brainz out an see whut I kin kum up with. When I getOh no. .. Did you take me seriously? Geez...I'm not that demanding. I found
>it, I'll let you folks see if I've left anything out.
your All Browsers thing wonderful because it illustrated how mixed up
things are and I got carried away joking about it. I'm really sorry if you
took it as I asked you to really do it. Not to say I don't want to see if
you after all do...
If I knew a smilie for 'blushing' I would put it here.
- Hi Lotta,
At 09:46 AM 10/13/2000 +0200, you wrote:
>If I knew a smilie for 'blushing' I would put it here.
Can you see the red ears?
- Lotta wrote:
> Stephen,. . .
> >I'll get de books an' brainz out an see whut I kin kum up with. When I get
> >tired of
> >it, I'll let you folks see if I've left anything out.
> Oh no. .. Did you take me seriously? Geez...I'm not that demanding.
> If I knew a smilie for 'blushing' I would put it here.
>Try <*ê¿ê*>More to tee hee about. 8-)
I knew you were joking, Lotta, I just got into the spirit of the thing. I am
working on the clip anyhow. I spent a happy hour or two this morning just
figuring out, if I was going to include EVERYTHING in potential HTML, what the
nesting order should be. I'm afraid the clip will not be particularly short,
because I'm not the best programmer, but I will work on being concise. Who
knows, it could actually be a useful clip when all is said and done.
Love and all that good stuff,
>I knew you were joking, Lotta, I just got into the spirit of the thing.Oh, good. You had me worried there for a while. I can fold my ears into
their normal position then.
>What you use for ears above according to my locale gets transformed into
> (*ężę*) Lotta
Polish characters which would be said like: "ehwzhehw"
Have a go at saying it :)
>an all-browser, any object, any language, under anyBut...I'meant a one clicker! He he he!
>conditions. . . embedding clip.
Jokes aside...boy, have you got a lot together. Took a look at "Plans".
Hope you make it.
Eagerly awaiting the final version,
> Hi all,It's taking me a while. Lotta (jokingly, admitedly, but nevertheless)
challenged me to write an all-browser, any object, any language, under any
conditions. . . embedding clip.
I thought it would be easy. O.K., I thought it would be a learning experience.
Well it is tedious, but I am making head way.
However I'm not done.
For one thing, it is a small clip library.
Since I'm trying to make this one clip do everything, for every html element
included, I'm including every attribute I know about (just about).
Any way, I've zipped up the parts I have working into a library of clips for
the embed, object, applet, param, iframe, layer, ilayer and img elements.
I am including my plan for The All-Inclusive-All-Browser-Embed-Clip
If any one thinks they can use them as they now are, if any one wants to see
what I'm doing and give me comments on the final clip, or if any one just likes
to click on links to see what happens, the zipped file is at:
It won't stay there forever, but if the final humongous clip is a good one,
I'll offer it up to NoteTab's Clip Library Site.
Thanks and happy embedding,
- Hi all,
I think my power animal is the turtle or the snail!
I believe I have finished the embed clip library such as it is.
If you want to try it out, it is at:
I've been testing it til I can't see straight and now can get only about half my
plugins to work on only half my browsers, but I think this seems to be working as a
set of clips.
Lemme know what anyone thinks,
be it comments, compliments or complaints. . .
- Hi Stephen the turtle ,
Hey, you've finished it! Congratulations. Was your post delayed or did I
overlook it? Found it some 50 posts back. I just downloaded and will play
with it later. Oh, thanks for the promotion to Flash expert .<G>
- Hi Lotta,
Thanks for the congrats. . .
And yeah, at least you're more expert than me.
Probably egroups delayed sending my email to you. I think they have a queue
thing going where not every one gets everything at the same time.
Bye yourself and happy solstice.
> Hi Stephen the turtle ,
> Hey, you've finished it! Congratulations. Was your post delayed or did I
> overlook it? Found it some 50 posts back. I just downloaded and will play
> with it later. Oh, thanks for the promotion to Flash expert .<G>