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Re: [NH] Alternate Text

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  • Lotta
    Hello guys, ... It s one of those common attributes that goes with everything . I think the most common use is with links. is just supposed to denote a
    Message 1 of 20 , Sep 19, 2000
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      Hello guys,

      Paul wrote:
      >i hadn't realised that 'title' was so flexible until you pointed it out. of
      >course, applying it to the

      It's one of those common attributes that goes with 'everything'. I think
      the most common use is with links. <DNF> is just supposed to denote a term
      by rendering it differently, mostly in Italic, I think. NS doesn't support
      that either.

      Aren't browsers funny? One (well, both) has poor support of standards and
      the other lets the sloppiest code slip through.

      BTW, I don't think this tooltip thing is possible to do in a way that 'all'
      can see it. Text readers are a sure goner to start with. JavaScript is
      possibly the best way since I think the people that doesn't have JavaScript
      enabled are fewer than those that use NS. I've seen real neat things done
      with JavaScript + CSS, but then you lose even more visitors. If it's mostly
      an effect it doesn't matter. But if it essential for the content/context,
      as I think it was for you Ray, I would say don't use it if you don't know
      your visitors are IE only and/or have JavaScript enabled. If the page is
      for more private use I agree with Paul. To heck with NS!

      Cheers,

      Lotta
    • Harvey R. Savage
      Hello All, I tried both examples from the emails, the Title line definition and the span definition, and neither works on my computer when loaded into IE 5.5.
      Message 2 of 20 , Sep 19, 2000
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        Hello All,

        I tried both examples from the emails, the Title line definition
        and the span definition, and neither works on my computer when
        loaded into IE 5.5. Were the examples not syntactically correct
        or is there some other problem.

        Waiting,

        hrs

        > Hi lotta,
        >
        > >>the code below works in ie5 but not in n4.06 (so what's new?) and has been
        > >>around as long as html 3.2 .
        > >>
        > >>
        > >><p>For as in absolute governments <dfn title="this does not mean
        > elvis">the
        > >>King</dfn> is law, so in free countries the law ought to be King; and
        > there
        > >>ought to be no other.</p>
        > >
        > >Just a point. Title works with most elements not only Defined Terms. A and
        > >P ( <A title="This do mean Elvis">) are fine for instance. So if you want
        > >to use it Ray, you don't have to re write the whole thing.
        > >I don't think even newer versions of NS support it nor does the 'perfect'
        > >Opera. I can't imagine why. It's simple and could be useful. The thing
        > >isn't even deprecated!
        > >
        > >Lotta
        >
        >
        > <p title="well, i never!">For as in absolute governments <span
        > style="color:#ff8000;text-decoration:underline;font-weight:700" title="this
        > does not mean elvis">the
        > King</span> is law, so in free countries the law ought to be King; and there
        > ought to be no other.</p>
        >
        > paul.

        --
        ¿? Harvey R. Savage
        ¿? 40 Golf Course Road
        ¿? Eldorado, IL 62930
        ¿? 618-273-5003
        ¿? icq 21106393
        ¿? hsavage@...
        ¿? (ktcalci)
      • Lotta
        Hello Harvey, ... No they all were correct as far as I can see. Maybe your email trashed something. I cleaned it up a little. Not the most meaningful example
        Message 3 of 20 , Sep 19, 2000
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          Hello Harvey,

          >I tried both examples from the emails, the Title line definition
          >and the span definition, and neither works on my computer when
          >loaded into IE 5.5. Were the examples not syntactically correct
          >or is there some other problem.

          No they all were correct as far as I can see. Maybe your email trashed
          something. I cleaned it up a little. Not the most meaningful example but it
          will hopefully work. :-)

          Lotta

          <HTML>
          <BODY>

          <P title="Moby Dick">
          Call me Ishmael. Some years ago - never mind how long precisely - having
          little or no money in my purse, and nothing particular to interest me on
          shore, I thought I would sail about a little and see the watery part of the
          world.</P>

          <P>
          <A href="" title="Full version of Moby Dick">
          Want to read more?</A></P>

          <P>
          You need a good <SPAN title="Get Notetab Light!"><U>text editor</U></SPAN>.
          So why not get a <DFN title="Get Notetab Pro!">real good</DFN> one?<P>



          </BODY>
          </HTML>
        • Ray Shapp
          Thank you all for responding to my question. Now some follow up. www.asterism.org is the website for an astronomy club. Most members use version 4.0 of MSIE
          Message 4 of 20 , Sep 19, 2000
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            Thank you all for responding to my question. Now some follow up.

            www.asterism.org is the website for an astronomy club. Most members use
            version 4.0 of MSIE or later. I haven't received any complaints from
            non-MSIE users. I already use Java for a crawl at the bottom of the home
            page. A crawl wouldn't achieve the effect I want for the index entries.

            I made a separate image file for each of the 20 entries in the site index
            and attached alternate temporary text to each image. (I'll replace the
            temporary text with something more meaningful later.) As far as I can see,
            each image must be unique because a non-hovering user must see all the index
            entries.

            All the images contain text only. Does anyone have any ideas that will make
            the images load more quickly? For example, my HTML text book says images
            load faster if HEIGHT and WIDTH attributes
            are included with images. Also, since the images are just text characters,
            can they be stored in a more efficient format other than GIF? For example,
            would BMP load faster?

            Note: I added all these images before I saw your responses. I'm guessing
            the Title attribute used with the Anchor tag will result in the fastest
            downloading of the site index. I'll try that next.

            Thank you again for your interest.

            Ray Shapp
          • Lotta
            Ray, I just want to tell you I think your site looks nice and clean. I spent some time there trying to learn a little about different kinds of telescopes. I ve
            Message 5 of 20 , Sep 20, 2000
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              Ray,

              I just want to tell you I think your site looks nice and clean. I spent
              some time there trying to learn a little about different kinds of
              telescopes. I've only used smaller ones for bird watching. Not so much to
              consider with them :)



              >All the images contain text only. Does anyone have any ideas that will make
              >the images load more quickly? For example, my HTML text book says images
              >load faster if HEIGHT and WIDTH attributes are included with images.

              Yes. And above all it allows the browser to 'outline' the image and
              continue to load the rest of the page and show the pic when it is fully
              loaded. Without the size attributes the loading of the page stops each time
              the browser encounter an image and the downward scrolling is locked.

              > Also, since the images are just text characters,
              >can they be stored in a more efficient format other than GIF? For example,
              >would BMP load faster?

              They seem as small as they can be. BMP would make them larger.

              > I'm guessing the Title attribute used with the Anchor tag will result in
              > the fastest
              >downloading of the site index. I'll try that next.

              Good idea. When I warned you against using alt since NS doesn't display it
              I hadn't understood fully what you were doing. I thought the alt text was
              meant as a substitute for informative link text.


              Regards,

              Lotta
            • Scott Fordin
              Hi, Ray, ... The site looks good. Well done! ... This is different than what I first thought you were asking. I first thought you were looking for a way to
              Message 6 of 20 , Sep 20, 2000
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                Hi, Ray,

                On Wed, 20 Sep 2000, Ray Shapp wrote:
                > www.asterism.org is the website for an astronomy club. Most members use
                > version 4.0 of MSIE or later. I haven't received any complaints from
                > non-MSIE users. I already use Java for a crawl at the bottom of the home
                > page. A crawl wouldn't achieve the effect I want for the index entries.

                The site looks good. Well done!

                > I made a separate image file for each of the 20 entries in the site index
                > and attached alternate temporary text to each image. (I'll replace the
                > temporary text with something more meaningful later.) As far as I can see,
                > each image must be unique because a non-hovering user must see all the index
                > entries.

                This is different than what I first thought you were asking. I first
                thought you were looking for a way to provide pop-up text descriptions
                over a simple directory listing -- that is, not an index-style navigation
                pane. For what you're really trying to do, you might want to is use a
                JavaScript routine that switches between image files as you do mouse
                overs; you can make the swapped image whatever you want, including an
                expanded text explanation. For examples of this kind of thing, check out
                http://www.ohelp.com and http://www.mislnh.org As far as the code for
                this sort of thing goes, may I recommend the following:

                <script language="JavaScript">
                <!--

                // Show "on" image
                function imgOn(imgName) {
                if (document.images) {
                document[imgName].src=eval(imgName + "on.src");
                }
                }

                // Show "off" image
                function imgOff(imgName) {
                if (document.images) {
                document[imgName].src=eval(imgName + "off.src");
                }
                }

                if (document.images) {
                img1on=new Image();
                img1on.src="art/inda000.gif";
                img2on=new Image();
                img2on.src="art/indg001.gif";
                img3on=new Image();
                img3on.src="art/indg002.gif";
                img4on=new Image();
                img4on.src="art/indg003.gif";
                img5on=new Image();
                img5on.src="art/indg004.gif";

                img1off=new Image();
                img1off.src="art/inds000.gif";
                img2off=new Image();
                img2off.src="art/indp001.gif";
                img3off=new Image();
                img3off.src="art/indp002.gif";
                img4off=new Image();
                img4off.src="art/indp003.gif";
                img5off=new Image();
                img5off.src="art/indp004.gif";
                }

                // -->
                </script>

                Obviously, use your own image file names instead of ind*.gif, and increase
                the size of the img* list as needed. After embedding this code, your index
                entries would take the following form:

                <a href="index.html" onmouseover="imgOn('img1')"
                onmouseout="imgOff('img1')"><img src="art/inds000.gif" width=160 height=70
                border=0 alt="Home" name="img1"></a>

                The first reference in the href, "index.html", is the name of the page to
                load when the user clicks the link. The onmouseover image is displayed
                when the user hovers over the link. The onmouseout is what's displayed
                when the user moves off the link. img src is the name of the image that's
                displayed by default, before the user has done anything on the
                page. Finally, name is the name of the img array, as defined in the
                <script>, above.

                > All the images contain text only. Does anyone have any ideas that will make
                > the images load more quickly? For example, my HTML text book says images
                > load faster if HEIGHT and WIDTH attributes
                > are included with images. Also, since the images are just text characters,
                > can they be stored in a more efficient format other than GIF? For example,
                > would BMP load faster?

                BMPs are larger and therefore slower to load. BMP is also not a proper
                cross-platform Web format; it's really a Windows format. You want to use
                either GIF or JPG. In general, GIFs are good for line art (basically what
                you have here), and JPGs are good for more continuous-tone kinds of
                images, like photographs. At the size you're talking about here, there
                probably won't be much difference between the two.

                To reduce the size of the image, the best way is to reduce the number of
                colors used. You basically have two colors here, so you should be able to
                drop the image size pretty low. Photoshop, Paintshop Pro, and ULead Photo
                all let you reduce color depth pretty easily. Some image viewers, like
                IrfanView, FmView, and ThumbsPlus also have tools for reducing color
                depth. On the *NIX side of the world, xv and GIMP are excellent for these
                tasks.

                > Note: I added all these images before I saw your responses. I'm guessing
                > the Title attribute used with the Anchor tag will result in the fastest
                > downloading of the site index. I'll try that next.

                Be wary of using IE-specific attributes: if only a relatively small
                percentage of your visitors are not using IE, you don't want to tick them
                off! Yes, TITLE is theoretically not IE-specific, but it is in a de facto
                sense.

                Good luck!

                Regards,

                Scott
              • Stefan Elssner
                Thank you a lot, Lotta ;-) (and thanks to Ray too for asking the question!) The right answer just in time. We were discussing some queer workarounds to have a
                Message 7 of 20 , Sep 20, 2000
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                  Thank you a lot, Lotta ;-)

                  (and thanks to Ray too for asking the question!)

                  The right answer just in time. We were discussing some queer
                  workarounds to have a simple text link providing additional
                  information just yesterday. All first ideas proved oversized or
                  unreliable. So we dropped it for the day.

                  A look at the HTML specs had saved us some time - as it did a look on
                  the NoteTab HTML list. :-)

                  You're very right, along the W3C HTML 4 spec (and almost sure since
                  3.2) the title attribut is related to (i.e. allowed in) 'All
                  elements but BASE, BASEFONT, HEAD, HTML, META, PARAM, SCRIPT, TITLE'

                  In other words, for all elements but these where it is needless. ;-)

                  I doesn't test Opera for that yet. However, NS 4.7 still doesn't
                  support that official HTML attribute.

                  According to you I can't see any good reason for not doing so.
                  Instead, a feature to let the user decide whether she wants to see
                  alternative descriptions as tooltips or not would be a nice feature I
                  think. I'm not sure, but maybe Opera has this implemented in the
                  latest release?

                  stefan
                  ---
                  elssner@...

                  ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                  ---------
                  Original:
                  Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 16:02:22 +0200
                  From: Lotta <loro@...>
                  Subject: Re: Alternate Text

                  Hi Paul, Ray and all,

                  >the code below works in ie5 but not in n4.06 (so what's new?) and has
                  been
                  >around as long as html 3.2 .
                  >...

                  Just a point. Title works with most elements not only Defined Terms. A
                  and
                  P ( <A title="This do mean Elvis">) are fine for instance. So if you
                  want
                  to use it Ray, you don't have to re write the whole thing.
                  I don't think even newer versions of NS support it nor does the
                  'perfect'
                  Opera. I can't imagine why. It's simple and could be useful. The thing
                  isn't even deprecated!

                  Lotta
                • Lotta
                  Stefan, ... Gee Stefan, I have to tell you that I have actually never used Alt for anything else than images. I just happened to know about it. ... I think so
                  Message 8 of 20 , Sep 20, 2000
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                    Stefan,

                    >Thank you a lot, Lotta ;-
                    >According to you I can't see any good reason for not doing so.

                    Gee Stefan, I have to tell you that I have actually never used Alt for
                    anything else than images. I just happened to know about it.

                    >Instead, a feature to let the user decide whether she wants to see
                    >alternative descriptions as tooltips or not would be a nice feature I
                    >think.

                    I think so too. If one has a long list of links and doesn't want to clutter
                    the page with too much visible info is one use that jumps to mind. It's
                    easy to do and doesn't slow things down.

                    > I'm not sure, but maybe Opera has this implemented in the
                    >latest release?

                    Don't think so. The version I checked with, 4.02*, was the latest not too
                    many weeks ago.

                    Bye,

                    Lotta
                  • Grant
                    Has any one come across a decent set of HTML bmp icons suitable for the clipbar. My attempts at creating suitable 16X16 html orientated icons are an
                    Message 9 of 20 , Sep 20, 2000
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                      Has any one come across a decent set of HTML bmp icons suitable for the
                      clipbar. My attempts at creating suitable 16X16 html orientated icons are
                      an embarrassment.
                    • Piotr Bienkowski
                      ... are ... I tried my hand at it too, but somehow I can t get them to have a color background like the original ones. What options should I choose when
                      Message 10 of 20 , Sep 21, 2000
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                        -------------------------------------------------------_->

                        > Has any one come across a decent set of HTML bmp icons suitable for the
                        > clipbar. My attempts at creating suitable 16X16 html orientated icons
                        are
                        > an embarrassment.

                        I tried my hand at it too, but somehow I can't get them to have a color
                        background like the "original" ones. What options should I choose when
                        saving from Paintbrush (mspaint)?

                        BTW, does anybody know where to get a camel icon for perl scripts (both
                        for Notetab and Windows)?

                        Regards,


                        Piotr Bieńkowski
                      • Lloyd
                        Hi Piotr, I was having that problem too until Jody came through for me. Here is part of the message he sent to clear it up for me. Hi Lloyd, ... Yes, the lower
                        Message 11 of 20 , Sep 21, 2000
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                          Hi Piotr,

                          I was having that problem too until Jody came through for me. Here is part
                          of the message he sent to clear it up for me.

                          Hi Lloyd,

                          > An example, I used clipbar1.bmp, it has a purple background.
                          > The tools came through but the background is button color. Is
                          > there something I can do to get the color of the background to
                          > come through?

                          Yes, the lower left pixel determines the transparent color. Make
                          it a color that is *not* used and only that pixel will not be
                          seen. I attached some help. See the glossary under pixel if you
                          need more understanding.

                          When I changed that pixel to the color I wanted, it worked.

                          Lloyd
                          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                          >I tried my hand at it too, but somehow I can't get them to have a color
                          >background like the "original" ones. What options should I choose when
                          >saving from Paintbrush (mspaint)?
                        • Scott Fordin
                          A good place for free stuff like this is http://www.mediabuilder.com. Scott
                          Message 12 of 20 , Sep 21, 2000
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                            A good place for free stuff like this is http://www.mediabuilder.com

                            Scott

                            At 08:44 AM 9/21/00 +0000, Piotr Bienkowski wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            >-------------------------------------------------------_->
                            >
                            > > Has any one come across a decent set of HTML bmp icons suitable for the
                            > > clipbar. My attempts at creating suitable 16X16 html orientated icons
                            >are
                            > > an embarrassment.
                            >
                            >I tried my hand at it too, but somehow I can't get them to have a color
                            >background like the "original" ones. What options should I choose when
                            >saving from Paintbrush (mspaint)?
                            >
                            >BTW, does anybody know where to get a camel icon for perl scripts (both
                            >for Notetab and Windows)?
                            >
                            >Regards,
                            >
                            >
                            >Piotr Bieñkowski
                          • Jody
                            Hi Grant, ... Re-post in a month. Once we get MailBag released (www.fookes.com/beta) I might have the time to finish or redo the set I have. It will be
                            Message 13 of 20 , Sep 21, 2000
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                              Hi Grant,

                              >Has any one come across a decent set of HTML bmp icons suitable
                              >for the clipbar. My attempts at creating suitable 16X16 html
                              >orientated icons are an embarrassment.

                              Re-post in a month. Once we get MailBag released
                              (www.fookes.com/beta) I might have the time to finish or redo the
                              set I have. It will be something we need to talk about too
                              because of different tastes.

                              Happy HTML'n!
                              Jody

                              http://www.sureword.com/notetab

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