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Re: [NH] Use Of target="_blank"

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  • loro
    ... Ah, but only if that s what you want. What if the user actually likes to open new windows and what if he also likes to save windows with pages he might
    Message 1 of 29 , Mar 27, 2011
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      Scott wrote:
      >All this said, I think it's much, much better to use a specifically
      >named target window rather than _blank, so you're at least not rudely
      >spawning a gazillion windows, and it also becomes possible to create a
      >history trail in the spawned window. In short, I think _blank is evil,
      >but specifically named targets can be quite useful.

      Ah, but only if that's what you want. What if the user actually likes
      to open new windows and what if he also likes to save windows with
      pages he might want to peruse later, so he minimizes them or lets
      them lose focus while he goes through the rest of the links (I do
      this a lot myself). When he wants to read that interesting page, lo
      and behold, it has been replaced with a totally different page. Boo-hoo.

      That's what it boils down to. No one knows what anyone else wants or
      prefers in a given situation. So keep the options open.

      I'm not adamant about this. There are situations when I think a
      little JS window fits in and doesn't harm anything, but for navigation - nuh.

      Lotta
    • Axel Berger
      ... Yes absolutely. I know I tend to be of the black and white school with no exceptions, but when used sensibly pop-ups and new windows do have their place.
      Message 2 of 29 , Mar 27, 2011
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        Scott Fordin wrote:
        > There are times, however, when it's appropriate to spawn new windows

        Yes absolutely. I know I tend to be of the black and white school with
        no exceptions, but when used sensibly pop-ups and new windows do have
        their place. Just remember how rare these instances are.

        > For example, hover-based pop-ups are not so
        > great on mobile phones, and they're really bad if your users rely on
        > screen reading add-ons.

        And of course for those fed up with noisy disturbing backgrounds all
        browsers offer a setting to turn them off. The result is that for me all
        these hovers have a transparent background and become illegible. Alas
        the number of sensible uses of the hover technique is minuscule compared
        to all the inappropriate backgrounds so I live with it.

        Axel
      • Ray Shapp
        Hi Axel and Scott, I m not sure what you are referring to when you say, hover-based pop-ups . Please look at the NewEgg website . Just
        Message 3 of 29 , Mar 27, 2011
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          Hi Axel and Scott,

          I'm not sure what you are referring to when you say, "hover-based pop-ups".
          Please look at the NewEgg website <http://www.newegg.com/>. Just below their
          "Search" window, they have a yellow nav bar containing eleven categories of
          product beginning with, "COMPUTER HARDWARE". When I hover over that button,
          a two-column screen opens containing links for about two dozen
          sub-categories of computer hardware. Is this an example of a "hover-based
          pop-up"?

          Axel, are you saying that the subcategories of hardware on the NewEgg site
          are illegible for you?

          Separate but related question: Do most of these hover-based pop-ups get
          spawned by the operation of JavaScript code?

          Ray Shapp


          On Sun, Mar 27, 2011 at 6:34 PM, Axel Berger <Axel-Berger@...> wrote:

          >
          >
          > Scott Fordin wrote:
          > > There are times, however, when it's appropriate to spawn new windows
          >
          > Yes absolutely. I know I tend to be of the black and white school with
          > no exceptions, but when used sensibly pop-ups and new windows do have
          > their place. Just remember how rare these instances are.
          >
          >
          > > For example, hover-based pop-ups are not so
          > > great on mobile phones, and they're really bad if your users rely on
          > > screen reading add-ons.
          >
          > And of course for those fed up with noisy disturbing backgrounds all
          > browsers offer a setting to turn them off. The result is that for me all
          > these hovers have a transparent background and become illegible. Alas
          > the number of sensible uses of the hover technique is minuscule compared
          > to all the inappropriate backgrounds so I live with it.
          >
          > Axel
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Axel Berger
          ... Yes, exactly. ... I am. Firstly they are not even present and after allowing scripting this is what I see: http://berger-odenthal.de/upload/Clipboard01.png
          Message 4 of 29 , Mar 27, 2011
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            Ray Shapp wrote:
            > Is this an example of a "hover-based pop-up"?

            Yes, exactly.
            > Axel, are you saying that the subcategories of hardware
            > on the NewEgg site are illegible for you?

            I am. Firstly they are not even present and after allowing scripting
            this is what I see:

            http://berger-odenthal.de/upload/Clipboard01.png

            > Do most of these hover-based pop-ups get
            > spawned by the operation of JavaScript code?

            Yes. Mostly it seems to be because many authors just don't know how to
            do it in pure CSS. On the other hand this example conforms to a
            useability rule of adding a slight delay. See:
            http://www.useit.com/alertbox/mega-dropdown-menus.html
            under the heading "Speed".

            So here script is good, but they ought to implement pure CSS first and
            have the script, when running, turn that off first and replace it by the
            better version. Never exclude visitors without script.

            By the way my sample design employs the CSS solution in the left menu
            and it shows the problems with that. Try moving down to a certain top
            menu entry from the top, you'll fail. I ought to write a script with
            delay for that, but then we all ought to do many things ...

            Axel
          • Axel Berger
            ... My daughter keeps chiding me about that. It s more than thirty years old and I was younger then than she s now. It happens to be the only photograph of
            Message 5 of 29 , Mar 27, 2011
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              Ray Shapp wrote:
              > BTW, Axel, you appear much younger than I had imagined
              > (assuming that is not a very old photo of you).

              My daughter keeps chiding me about that. It's more than thirty years old
              and I was younger then than she's now. It happens to be the only
              photograph
              of myself I ever liked.
              A more current one is this Buddha
              http://berger-odenthal.de/upload/Axel.jpg

              Axel
            • loro
              ... Hover based it may be, but it isn t a popup ( a new window). It s a section of the same page that was previously hidden that is shown when the link is
              Message 6 of 29 , Mar 27, 2011
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                Ray Shapp wrote:
                >I'm not sure what you are referring to when you say, "hover-based pop-ups".
                >Please look at the NewEgg website <http://www.newegg.com/>. Just below their
                >"Search" window, they have a yellow nav bar containing eleven categories of
                >product beginning with, "COMPUTER HARDWARE". When I hover over that button,
                >a two-column screen opens containing links for about two dozen
                >sub-categories of computer hardware. Is this an example of a "hover-based
                >pop-up"?

                Hover based it may be, but it isn't a popup ( a new window). It's a
                section of the same page that was previously hidden that is shown
                when the link is hovered.

                Lotta
              • Ray Shapp
                Quoting Axel: Firstly they are not even present and after allowing scripting this is what I see: http://berger-odenthal.de/upload/Clipboard01.png That s odd!
                Message 7 of 29 , Mar 28, 2011
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                  Quoting Axel:
                  Firstly they are not even present and after allowing scripting
                  this is what I see:

                  http://berger-odenthal.de/upload/Clipboard01.png

                  That's odd! Here is what I see:

                  http://www.classiccars.ws/testing/ScreenShot004.jpg

                  Notice they use a link title as well as hover pop-up. That's probably
                  because some browsers are deliberately set to ignore JavaScript or are
                  unable to do so. I am using Firefox v3.6.16 under Win7 Pro SP1 64-bit.


                  Quoting Lotta:
                  Hover based it may be, but it isn't a popup

                  That makes sense. Otherwise my pop-up blocker would prevent me from seeing
                  the enhanced menu.

                  Ray Shapp



                  On Sun, Mar 27, 2011 at 9:04 PM, Axel Berger <Axel-Berger@...> wrote:

                  >
                  >
                  > Ray Shapp wrote:
                  > > Is this an example of a "hover-based pop-up"?
                  >
                  > Yes, exactly.
                  >
                  > > Axel, are you saying that the subcategories of hardware
                  > > on the NewEgg site are illegible for you?
                  >
                  > I am. Firstly they are not even present and after allowing scripting
                  > this is what I see:
                  >
                  > http://berger-odenthal.de/upload/Clipboard01.png
                  >
                  >
                  > > Do most of these hover-based pop-ups get
                  > > spawned by the operation of JavaScript code?
                  >
                  > Yes. Mostly it seems to be because many authors just don't know how to
                  > do it in pure CSS. On the other hand this example conforms to a
                  > useability rule of adding a slight delay. See:
                  > http://www.useit.com/alertbox/mega-dropdown-menus.html
                  > under the heading "Speed".
                  >
                  > So here script is good, but they ought to implement pure CSS first and
                  > have the script, when running, turn that off first and replace it by the
                  > better version. Never exclude visitors without script.
                  >
                  > By the way my sample design employs the CSS solution in the left menu
                  > and it shows the problems with that. Try moving down to a certain top
                  > menu entry from the top, you'll fail. I ought to write a script with
                  > delay for that, but then we all ought to do many things ...
                  >
                  > Axel
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Axel Berger
                  ... Not odd at all, self-inflicted. In Firefox the setting is found in Tools-- Options-- Content-- Colors-- Allow pages...-- No The reason is that now all text
                  Message 8 of 29 , Mar 28, 2011
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                    Ray Shapp wrote:
                    > That's odd!

                    Not odd at all, self-inflicted. In Firefox the setting is found in
                    Tools-->Options-->Content-->Colors-->Allow pages...-->No

                    The reason is that now all text on all pages is optimally legible
                    whatever bad contrast and noisy background a misguided designer-artist
                    may have chosen. As Jacob Nielsen keeps saying, people do not browse to
                    pages to admire their beauty but to find things and get things done as
                    quickly and as efficiently as possible. The default background of all
                    elements except <BODY> is transparent and if I forbid changing that,
                    that's what I'll get and hovering in front of other content won't work
                    for text.

                    Your mileage may vary, but whenever I turn colours back on for a page
                    like that one I tend to leave it on for a while and I find that very
                    soon the terrible abominations of taste I'm confronted with make me turn
                    it off very soon again. But be that as it may, it is a fully legal
                    setting that ALL browsers offer right there as a menu switch, so just
                    like script on and off, a minimum font size, and varying window size
                    conscientious designers have to be prepared for it and ensure their
                    designs basic useability. An ugly kludge is fine, it is self inflicted
                    by the visitor after all, but useable it has to be.

                    One possibility would be hover an image, one white pixel with width and
                    height in em, and hover the text in front of that. Contrary to script
                    there is no way, not even employing script, to find out what the
                    vistor's settings are so it's not possible to employ the cludge only
                    when needed. With bad luck your image has exactly the visitor's font
                    colour and will make things even worse.
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