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Re: [NH] Use Of target="_blank"

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  • loro
    ... It validates now under (X)HTML Transitional. Lotta
    Message 1 of 29 , Mar 26, 2011
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      At 11:00 2011-03-26, Axel Berger wrote:
      >1) It doesn't validate (though Lotta says that will change in HTML 5).

      It validates now under (X)HTML Transitional.

      Lotta
    • loro
      ... I say you should learn how to open new windows yourself, if that s what you want. And as I hinted at earlier, you would probably have done se long ago if
      Message 2 of 29 , Mar 26, 2011
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        Ray wrote:
        >Thank you for your insights. What do you say to the problem that annoys me
        >about sites that don't provide easy links to backtrack?

        I say you should learn how to open new windows yourself, if that's
        what you want. And as I hinted at earlier, you would probably have
        done se long ago if it hadn't become almost a rule for sites to force
        new windows for external links. What is the saying? Something like
        "With freedom comes responsibility". If you want freedom of choice
        you have to be prepared to make the choices. Maybe you have to be
        prepared to make them so other people can have freedom of choice even
        in the cases you don't personally see the need for it.

        Lotta
      • loro
        ... That s a little like saying that if half the population in a country are analphabets and find books discouraging, there should be no books. Or if only half
        Message 3 of 29 , Mar 26, 2011
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          At 15:55 2011-03-26, Ray Shapp wrote:
          >About half of the members of the club for which I maintain a website have
          >very limited computer skills. The kind of backtracking I described above
          >would be very discouraging to them.

          That's a little like saying that if half the population in a country
          are analphabets and find books discouraging, there should be no
          books. Or if only half can drive a car, no one should drive. Isn't
          that taking democracy too far?

          I don't think that protecting those members from learning is doing
          them a favour in the long run. It isn't brain surgery, doesn't take
          any special computer skills. A monkey can learn to press down a key
          to get something it wants. It's more a matter of habits that are a
          little hard do break, I think. When this new window business started
          people went berserk because it wasn't the expected behaviour (and it
          was rude too!). Now some people are so used to it they think things
          aren't working if it isn't there. No big deal.

          Lotta
        • Axel Berger
          ... And of course you re absolutely right again. I took one of the pages I quoted at face value and never checked. Axel
          Message 4 of 29 , Mar 26, 2011
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            loro wrote:
            > It validates now under (X)HTML Transitional.

            And of course you're absolutely right again. I took one of the pages I
            quoted at face value and never checked.

            Axel
          • Axel Berger
            ... Well no, Ray s got a point here. I don t want tabs and windows all over the place and I rely on my back button. So when a good page directs me to another
            Message 5 of 29 , Mar 26, 2011
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              loro wrote:
              > I say you should learn how to open new windows yourself,

              Well no, Ray's got a point here. I don't want tabs and windows all over
              the place and I rely on my back button. So when a good page directs me
              to another and that breaks my browsing, it's annoying alright and out of
              the good guy's control.

              BUT, Ray, in all browsers I know the back button is not just a button.
              You can make it drop open and choose from a whole bunch of earlier
              pages, the right one, hopefully and usually among them. So if you do the
              right thing, people can always get back to your page, if only they know
              how to use their own tools. After all, if you run a boarding house and
              give people directions, you do usually assume they know how to drive. It
              is only on the net you're expected to hold their hands and do that for
              them as well. I refuse to.

              Axel
            • loro
              ... So don t open new windows then. :-) The whole sentence was: I say you should learn how to open new windows yourself, _if_that s_what_you_want._ Lotta
              Message 6 of 29 , Mar 26, 2011
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                Axel wrote:
                >loro wrote:
                > > I say you should learn how to open new windows yourself,
                >
                >Well no, Ray's got a point here. I don't want tabs and windows all over
                >the place and I rely on my back button.

                So don't open new windows then. :-)

                The whole sentence was: "I say you should learn how to open new
                windows yourself, _if_that's_what_you_want._"

                Lotta
              • Axel Berger
                ... Quite. The point Ray made was, that you never know beforehand, who s going to do the nasty on you. You you either open new windows right, left, and centre
                Message 7 of 29 , Mar 26, 2011
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                  loro wrote:
                  > So don't open new windows then. :-)

                  Quite. The point Ray made was, that you never know beforehand, who's
                  going to do the nasty on you. You you either open new windows right,
                  left, and centre or you're sure to end up bitten - both equally not
                  nice. So the browser makers thought of that too - they thought of a lot
                  of things to block the nasties, be it tiny script or garish colour - and
                  offer the extended back function.

                  The point we're both agreed on, I think, is: don't second guess your
                  visitors, don't attempt to think for them, but make it so, that they are
                  given the maximum of power and freedom to do their own thing with their
                  own tools.

                  The WDR radio website seems to have one of those bigger/smaller buttons
                  that use script to change the font size, but when you click it, a page
                  opens explaining exactly how to do that in several of the common
                  browsers. Personally I find that kind of thing a bit condescending and
                  wouldn't do it myself, but if that's what it takes, then why not?

                  Axel
                • Michael Rawley
                  Axel Burger wrote ... Making the same changes to a folder full of files is easy! It is also rather scary, but the feeling of achievement in modifying 300 odd
                  Message 8 of 29 , Mar 26, 2011
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                    Axel Burger wrote
                    > the big advantage was, that it made
                    > writing the site quite easy. Without frames each complete page is one
                    > HTML-file. You have to include the menu in each and every one of them
                    > and what's worse, you have to aplly all changes to all the files. A
                    > nightmare.
                    > Axel

                    Making the same changes to a folder full of files is easy! It is also rather
                    scary, but the feeling of achievement in modifying 300 odd files in one go
                    is worth it

                    I am, of course, refering to the command 'Ctrl-D'.

                    Try it on half a dozen dummy files first!

                    Michael Rawley
                    www.normist.co.uk
                  • Ray Shapp
                    Hi Axel, Lotta, Mike, This is just to let you know I haven t gone away. I ve spent the whole day trying to learn the lessons contained in Axel s great tutorial
                    Message 9 of 29 , Mar 26, 2011
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                      Hi Axel, Lotta, Mike,

                      This is just to let you know I haven't gone away. I've spent the whole day
                      trying to learn the lessons contained in Axel's great tutorial at
                      http://axel.berger-odenthal.de/Webdesign/Testpage.htm# and to consider
                      carefully what you folks have said in your messages.

                      So far, I have successfully tested my first web page using SSI. I discovered
                      it was failing because Apache requires a file extension like ".shtm". After
                      fixing that, I was able to confirm that the hosting service for the club's
                      website does act on SSI directives, but a site for classic car restorations
                      (at a different hosting service) which I also maintain does not. It merely
                      renders the SSI as text. That's OK for now because it's the club's site that
                      I want to modify to eliminate the use of frames.

                      I also placed a German dictionary in my bookmarks, and I had fun trying to
                      understand some of the comments linked from
                      http://axel.berger-odenthal.de/BTW, Axel, you appear much younger than
                      I had imagined (assuming that is not
                      a very old photo of you).

                      Most of what I have seen today is quite daunting because it's new to me. A
                      basic question before I go much farther though: my main nav bar in the
                      redesigned website will be along the top of the page. Can SSI and a
                      modification of the script at
                      http://fdp.berger-odenthal.de/base/fix-menue.js keep the nav bar in view
                      when the user scrolls down the page?

                      If this discussion does nothing else, it will definitely reduce the number
                      of instances where I use target="_blank". On the other hand, I have special
                      audiences for both the club website and the classic car website. In the
                      first case, the majority of users do need extra hand-holding. Most don't
                      know about the drop-down window on the Back button, and they don't want to
                      learn about it. We have a wide range of ages in the club, but the modal
                      member is probably 55 to 60 years of age. The important audience on the
                      classic cars website is special because the content of the site is mostly
                      about rare vehicles. For example, users who want to know about 1918 Cadillac
                      laundry trucks will want to stay on our site because the internet doesn't
                      offer many other places to see that kind of vehicle. The site is also
                      special because car enthusiasts tend to be unfamiliar with web navigation.
                      It was after speaking with a number of visitors that we realized many of
                      them were not scrolling vertically. In response, we placed a large white
                      downward-pointing arrow labeled "more below" on the Home page. All our
                      thumbnails are accompanied by a hint indicating that a click on the picture
                      will display a larger version. Otherwise many visitors will miss important
                      content.

                      I need to take my first break all day now to get something to eat, but I'll
                      be back later. I really like working with this stuff. Thank you all!

                      Ray Shapp


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                    • loro
                      ... Includes don t do anything more than glue the content of files together before the page is served, like a server-side Find & Replace, you could say, only
                      Message 10 of 29 , Mar 26, 2011
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                        Ray wrote:
                        >Can SSI and a modification of the script at
                        >http://fdp.berger-odenthal.de/base/fix-menue.js keep the nav bar in view
                        >when the user scrolls down the page?

                        Includes don't do anything more than glue the content of files
                        together before the page is served, like a server-side Find &
                        Replace, you could say, only it isn't permanent, the physical files
                        aren't changed.

                        I think you are looking for 'position: fixed' (that isn't supported
                        by older versions of IE, but there are workarounds).
                        http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/visuren.html#propdef-position

                        Lotta
                      • Axel Berger
                        ... You re right of course! I have done that quite a few times and I forewent the trial. But you will admit, I think, that editing one file - there will
                        Message 11 of 29 , Mar 27, 2011
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                          Michael Rawley wrote:
                          > I am, of course, refering to the command 'Ctrl-D'.
                          > Try it on half a dozen dummy files first!

                          You're right of course! I have done that quite a few times and I
                          forewent the trial. But you will admit, I think, that editing one file -
                          there will ususally be more than change, even moving something is one
                          deletion plus one entry - is quite different from converting each step
                          into a replace command (find the right and only the right place) or a
                          clip.

                          Anyway, I have a prepared clip for just that, where you only need to add
                          the specific task at hand. N.B: Defeintely try this out on dummy files
                          in a dummy folder first.

                          Beware of long lines

                          ; Adapt this part to the task in hand
                          ^!Set %varFIL%="F:\Webspace\index.php"
                          ^!Set %varPAT%="*.htm;*.php"
                          ; End of invidual adaptation

                          ^!SetWizardLabel "Please define the files to be converted"
                          ;^!SetDebug On
                          ^!Set %varFIL%=^?{(T=O;F="Source
                          Files|*.html;*.htm;*.?html;*.xml;*asp;*.css;*.php;*.php3;*.php4")Sample
                          file=^%varFIL%}; %varSDR%=^?{(T=L)Include Subdirectories?==_Yes|No};
                          %varPAT%=^?{Search Pattern=^%varPAT%}
                          ^!Set %varPTH%=^$GetPath(^%varFIL%)$
                          ^!If "^%varSDR%"="Yes" yessub ELSE nosub
                          :yessub
                          ^!Set %varFIL%=^$GetFileFirst("+^%varPTH%";"^%varPAT%")$
                          ^!Goto loop
                          :nosub
                          ^!Set %varFIL%=^$GetFileFirst("^%varPTH%";"^%varPAT%")$
                          :loop
                          ^!IfTrue ^$IsEmpty(^%varFIL%)$ finished
                          ;^!Continue ^%varFIL%
                          ^!Open "^%varFIL%"

                          ; Adapt this part to the task in hand

                          ^!Replace "http://www.w3.org/Icons/valid-html401" >>
                          "http://berger-odenthal.de/pics/valid-html401.png" WAS
                          ^!Replace "http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/images/vcss" >>
                          "http://berger-odenthal.de/pics/vcss.png" WAS

                          ;^!Replace "//EN"> <" >> "//EN"^P
                          "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd">^P<" WAS

                          ; End of invidual adaptation

                          ^!Close ALL,SAVE
                          ^!Set %varFIL%=^$GetFileNext$
                          ^!Goto loop
                          :finished
                          ^!CloseFileFind




                          >
                          > Michael Rawley
                          > www.normist.co.uk
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------
                          >
                          > Fookes Software: http://www.fookes.com/
                          > NoteTab website: http://www.notetab.com/
                          > NoteTab Discussion Lists: http://www.notetab.com/groups.php
                          >
                          > ***
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          --
                          Dipl.-Ing. F. Axel Berger Tel: +49/ 2174/ 7439 07
                          Johann-Häck-Str. 14 Fax: +49/ 2174/ 7439 68
                          D-51519 Odenthal-Heide eMail: Axel-Berger@...
                          Deutschland (Germany) http://berger-odenthal.de
                        • Ray Shapp
                          Hi Michael and Axel, I will definitely need to use the global replace command in NoteTab (Ctrl+D), however it will be done piecemeal on limited subsections of
                          Message 12 of 29 , Mar 27, 2011
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                            Hi Michael and Axel,

                            I will definitely need to use the global replace command in NoteTab
                            (Ctrl+D), however it will be done piecemeal on limited subsections of the
                            site. Currently I have nearly 6,000 files in 238 folders on the astronomy
                            club's website. More than 3,000 of the files are JPGs, PDFs, XLS files, and
                            DOC files, but that still leaves about 2300 html pages. The index frame
                            points to 21 subsections in addition to the Home page. Over the past 12
                            years well over a dozen members created and edited various web pages or
                            whole sections of the site, and they used a wide variety of formats.

                            While eliminating the frames, I want to develop a single CSS style sheet
                            that will apply to most HTML pages. I want also a fixed nav bar preferably
                            at the top of every page. Most of the current web pages were designed for
                            800x600 resolution displays. I want to change that to 1024x768. Of course,
                            the site needs to remain usable during the transition, and I am working
                            alone on this project. Our hosting plan allows 5GB of storage, and we are
                            using only a little over 1GB now. I think it may be best to duplicate the
                            entire site using an alternate web address as I convert sections to the new
                            format. I'll give out the alternate address to only a few members who might
                            have constructive comments about usability of the new design. Axel's clip
                            (shown below) will be very useful for making conversions on well-defined
                            subsections of the site.

                            I don't have any time limit. The only time pressure I feel is
                            self-generated.

                            Ray Shapp


                            On Sun, Mar 27, 2011 at 7:10 AM, Axel Berger <Axel-Berger@...> wrote:

                            >
                            >
                            > Michael Rawley wrote:
                            > > I am, of course, refering to the command 'Ctrl-D'.
                            > > Try it on half a dozen dummy files first!
                            >
                            > You're right of course! I have done that quite a few times and I
                            > forewent the trial. But you will admit, I think, that editing one file -
                            > there will ususally be more than change, even moving something is one
                            > deletion plus one entry - is quite different from converting each step
                            > into a replace command (find the right and only the right place) or a
                            > clip.
                            >
                            > Anyway, I have a prepared clip for just that, where you only need to add
                            > the specific task at hand. N.B: Defeintely try this out on dummy files
                            > in a dummy folder first.
                            >
                            > Beware of long lines
                            >
                            > ; Adapt this part to the task in hand
                            > ^!Set %varFIL%="F:\Webspace\index.php"
                            > ^!Set %varPAT%="*.htm;*.php"
                            > ; End of invidual adaptation
                            >
                            > ^!SetWizardLabel "Please define the files to be converted"
                            > ;^!SetDebug On
                            > ^!Set %varFIL%=^?{(T=O;F="Source
                            > Files|*.html;*.htm;*.?html;*.xml;*asp;*.css;*.php;*.php3;*.php4")Sample
                            > file=^%varFIL%}; %varSDR%=^?{(T=L)Include Subdirectories?==_Yes|No};
                            > %varPAT%=^?{Search Pattern=^%varPAT%}
                            > ^!Set %varPTH%=^$GetPath(^%varFIL%)$
                            > ^!If "^%varSDR%"="Yes" yessub ELSE nosub
                            > :yessub
                            > ^!Set %varFIL%=^$GetFileFirst("+^%varPTH%";"^%varPAT%")$
                            > ^!Goto loop
                            > :nosub
                            > ^!Set %varFIL%=^$GetFileFirst("^%varPTH%";"^%varPAT%")$
                            > :loop
                            > ^!IfTrue ^$IsEmpty(^%varFIL%)$ finished
                            > ;^!Continue ^%varFIL%
                            > ^!Open "^%varFIL%"
                            >
                            > ; Adapt this part to the task in hand
                            >
                            > ^!Replace "http://www.w3.org/Icons/valid-html401" >>
                            > "http://berger-odenthal.de/pics/valid-html401.png" WAS
                            > ^!Replace "http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/images/vcss" >>
                            > "http://berger-odenthal.de/pics/vcss.png" WAS
                            >
                            > ;^!Replace "//EN"> <" >> "//EN"^P
                            > "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd">^P<" WAS
                            >
                            > ; End of invidual adaptation
                            >
                            > ^!Close ALL,SAVE
                            > ^!Set %varFIL%=^$GetFileNext$
                            > ^!Goto loop
                            > :finished
                            > ^!CloseFileFind
                            >
                            >
                            > >
                            > > Michael Rawley
                            > > www.normist.co.uk
                            > >
                            > > ------------------------------------
                            >
                            > >
                            > > Fookes Software: http://www.fookes.com/
                            > > NoteTab website: http://www.notetab.com/
                            > > NoteTab Discussion Lists: http://www.notetab.com/groups.php
                            > >
                            > > ***
                            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > --
                            > Dipl.-Ing. F. Axel Berger Tel: +49/ 2174/ 7439 07
                            > Johann-H�ck-Str. 14 Fax: +49/ 2174/ 7439 68
                            > D-51519 Odenthal-Heide eMail: Axel-Berger@...
                            > Deutschland (Germany) http://berger-odenthal.de
                            >
                            >


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Scott Fordin
                            FWIW, I think that, in most cases, you don t want to open links in new windows for many of the reasons already mentioned here. For example, I know the style
                            Message 13 of 29 , Mar 27, 2011
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                              FWIW, I think that, in most cases, you don't want to open links in new
                              windows for many of the reasons already mentioned here. For example, I
                              know the style guidelines for all external Sun Microsystems (let's take
                              a moment here to shed a tear) Web sites specifically prohibited spawning
                              new windows except in relatively rare circumstances.

                              There are times, however, when it's appropriate to spawn new windows
                              when you want to provide additional information about a topic or product
                              without losing the initial context. Examples here include, say, an
                              online help system, or individual photos in a gallery, or a page that
                              compares a series of products, or a link to a PDF coupon, or a link that
                              takes you to another Web site in an entirely different domain.

                              All this said, I think it's much, much better to use a specifically
                              named target window rather than _blank, so you're at least not rudely
                              spawning a gazillion windows, and it also becomes possible to create a
                              history trail in the spawned window. In short, I think _blank is evil,
                              but specifically named targets can be quite useful.

                              Finally, you could also use some sort of hover-based pop-up for certain
                              kinds of content, but that can lead to all sorts of browser, platform,
                              and accessibility issues. For example, hover-based pop-ups are not so
                              great on mobile phones, and they're really bad if your users rely on
                              screen reading add-ons.

                              Scott

                              On 3/27/2011 1:01 AM, loro wrote:
                              > Ray wrote:
                              > >Can SSI and a modification of the script at
                              > >http://fdp.berger-odenthal.de/base/fix-menue.js keep the nav bar in view
                              > >when the user scrolls down the page?
                              >
                              > Includes don't do anything more than glue the content of files
                              > together before the page is served, like a server-side Find &
                              > Replace, you could say, only it isn't permanent, the physical files
                              > aren't changed.
                              >
                              > I think you are looking for 'position: fixed' (that isn't supported
                              > by older versions of IE, but there are workarounds).
                              > http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/visuren.html#propdef-position
                              >
                              > Lotta
                              >
                              >
                            • loro
                              ... Ah, but only if that s what you want. What if the user actually likes to open new windows and what if he also likes to save windows with pages he might
                              Message 14 of 29 , Mar 27, 2011
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                                Scott wrote:
                                >All this said, I think it's much, much better to use a specifically
                                >named target window rather than _blank, so you're at least not rudely
                                >spawning a gazillion windows, and it also becomes possible to create a
                                >history trail in the spawned window. In short, I think _blank is evil,
                                >but specifically named targets can be quite useful.

                                Ah, but only if that's what you want. What if the user actually likes
                                to open new windows and what if he also likes to save windows with
                                pages he might want to peruse later, so he minimizes them or lets
                                them lose focus while he goes through the rest of the links (I do
                                this a lot myself). When he wants to read that interesting page, lo
                                and behold, it has been replaced with a totally different page. Boo-hoo.

                                That's what it boils down to. No one knows what anyone else wants or
                                prefers in a given situation. So keep the options open.

                                I'm not adamant about this. There are situations when I think a
                                little JS window fits in and doesn't harm anything, but for navigation - nuh.

                                Lotta
                              • Axel Berger
                                ... Yes absolutely. I know I tend to be of the black and white school with no exceptions, but when used sensibly pop-ups and new windows do have their place.
                                Message 15 of 29 , Mar 27, 2011
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                                  Scott Fordin wrote:
                                  > There are times, however, when it's appropriate to spawn new windows

                                  Yes absolutely. I know I tend to be of the black and white school with
                                  no exceptions, but when used sensibly pop-ups and new windows do have
                                  their place. Just remember how rare these instances are.

                                  > For example, hover-based pop-ups are not so
                                  > great on mobile phones, and they're really bad if your users rely on
                                  > screen reading add-ons.

                                  And of course for those fed up with noisy disturbing backgrounds all
                                  browsers offer a setting to turn them off. The result is that for me all
                                  these hovers have a transparent background and become illegible. Alas
                                  the number of sensible uses of the hover technique is minuscule compared
                                  to all the inappropriate backgrounds so I live with it.

                                  Axel
                                • Ray Shapp
                                  Hi Axel and Scott, I m not sure what you are referring to when you say, hover-based pop-ups . Please look at the NewEgg website . Just
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Mar 27, 2011
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                                    Hi Axel and Scott,

                                    I'm not sure what you are referring to when you say, "hover-based pop-ups".
                                    Please look at the NewEgg website <http://www.newegg.com/>. Just below their
                                    "Search" window, they have a yellow nav bar containing eleven categories of
                                    product beginning with, "COMPUTER HARDWARE". When I hover over that button,
                                    a two-column screen opens containing links for about two dozen
                                    sub-categories of computer hardware. Is this an example of a "hover-based
                                    pop-up"?

                                    Axel, are you saying that the subcategories of hardware on the NewEgg site
                                    are illegible for you?

                                    Separate but related question: Do most of these hover-based pop-ups get
                                    spawned by the operation of JavaScript code?

                                    Ray Shapp


                                    On Sun, Mar 27, 2011 at 6:34 PM, Axel Berger <Axel-Berger@...> wrote:

                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Scott Fordin wrote:
                                    > > There are times, however, when it's appropriate to spawn new windows
                                    >
                                    > Yes absolutely. I know I tend to be of the black and white school with
                                    > no exceptions, but when used sensibly pop-ups and new windows do have
                                    > their place. Just remember how rare these instances are.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > > For example, hover-based pop-ups are not so
                                    > > great on mobile phones, and they're really bad if your users rely on
                                    > > screen reading add-ons.
                                    >
                                    > And of course for those fed up with noisy disturbing backgrounds all
                                    > browsers offer a setting to turn them off. The result is that for me all
                                    > these hovers have a transparent background and become illegible. Alas
                                    > the number of sensible uses of the hover technique is minuscule compared
                                    > to all the inappropriate backgrounds so I live with it.
                                    >
                                    > Axel
                                    >
                                    >


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Axel Berger
                                    ... Yes, exactly. ... I am. Firstly they are not even present and after allowing scripting this is what I see: http://berger-odenthal.de/upload/Clipboard01.png
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Mar 27, 2011
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                                      Ray Shapp wrote:
                                      > Is this an example of a "hover-based pop-up"?

                                      Yes, exactly.
                                      > Axel, are you saying that the subcategories of hardware
                                      > on the NewEgg site are illegible for you?

                                      I am. Firstly they are not even present and after allowing scripting
                                      this is what I see:

                                      http://berger-odenthal.de/upload/Clipboard01.png

                                      > Do most of these hover-based pop-ups get
                                      > spawned by the operation of JavaScript code?

                                      Yes. Mostly it seems to be because many authors just don't know how to
                                      do it in pure CSS. On the other hand this example conforms to a
                                      useability rule of adding a slight delay. See:
                                      http://www.useit.com/alertbox/mega-dropdown-menus.html
                                      under the heading "Speed".

                                      So here script is good, but they ought to implement pure CSS first and
                                      have the script, when running, turn that off first and replace it by the
                                      better version. Never exclude visitors without script.

                                      By the way my sample design employs the CSS solution in the left menu
                                      and it shows the problems with that. Try moving down to a certain top
                                      menu entry from the top, you'll fail. I ought to write a script with
                                      delay for that, but then we all ought to do many things ...

                                      Axel
                                    • Axel Berger
                                      ... My daughter keeps chiding me about that. It s more than thirty years old and I was younger then than she s now. It happens to be the only photograph of
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Mar 27, 2011
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                                        Ray Shapp wrote:
                                        > BTW, Axel, you appear much younger than I had imagined
                                        > (assuming that is not a very old photo of you).

                                        My daughter keeps chiding me about that. It's more than thirty years old
                                        and I was younger then than she's now. It happens to be the only
                                        photograph
                                        of myself I ever liked.
                                        A more current one is this Buddha
                                        http://berger-odenthal.de/upload/Axel.jpg

                                        Axel
                                      • loro
                                        ... Hover based it may be, but it isn t a popup ( a new window). It s a section of the same page that was previously hidden that is shown when the link is
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Mar 27, 2011
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                                          Ray Shapp wrote:
                                          >I'm not sure what you are referring to when you say, "hover-based pop-ups".
                                          >Please look at the NewEgg website <http://www.newegg.com/>. Just below their
                                          >"Search" window, they have a yellow nav bar containing eleven categories of
                                          >product beginning with, "COMPUTER HARDWARE". When I hover over that button,
                                          >a two-column screen opens containing links for about two dozen
                                          >sub-categories of computer hardware. Is this an example of a "hover-based
                                          >pop-up"?

                                          Hover based it may be, but it isn't a popup ( a new window). It's a
                                          section of the same page that was previously hidden that is shown
                                          when the link is hovered.

                                          Lotta
                                        • Ray Shapp
                                          Quoting Axel: Firstly they are not even present and after allowing scripting this is what I see: http://berger-odenthal.de/upload/Clipboard01.png That s odd!
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Mar 28, 2011
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                                            Quoting Axel:
                                            Firstly they are not even present and after allowing scripting
                                            this is what I see:

                                            http://berger-odenthal.de/upload/Clipboard01.png

                                            That's odd! Here is what I see:

                                            http://www.classiccars.ws/testing/ScreenShot004.jpg

                                            Notice they use a link title as well as hover pop-up. That's probably
                                            because some browsers are deliberately set to ignore JavaScript or are
                                            unable to do so. I am using Firefox v3.6.16 under Win7 Pro SP1 64-bit.


                                            Quoting Lotta:
                                            Hover based it may be, but it isn't a popup

                                            That makes sense. Otherwise my pop-up blocker would prevent me from seeing
                                            the enhanced menu.

                                            Ray Shapp



                                            On Sun, Mar 27, 2011 at 9:04 PM, Axel Berger <Axel-Berger@...> wrote:

                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Ray Shapp wrote:
                                            > > Is this an example of a "hover-based pop-up"?
                                            >
                                            > Yes, exactly.
                                            >
                                            > > Axel, are you saying that the subcategories of hardware
                                            > > on the NewEgg site are illegible for you?
                                            >
                                            > I am. Firstly they are not even present and after allowing scripting
                                            > this is what I see:
                                            >
                                            > http://berger-odenthal.de/upload/Clipboard01.png
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > > Do most of these hover-based pop-ups get
                                            > > spawned by the operation of JavaScript code?
                                            >
                                            > Yes. Mostly it seems to be because many authors just don't know how to
                                            > do it in pure CSS. On the other hand this example conforms to a
                                            > useability rule of adding a slight delay. See:
                                            > http://www.useit.com/alertbox/mega-dropdown-menus.html
                                            > under the heading "Speed".
                                            >
                                            > So here script is good, but they ought to implement pure CSS first and
                                            > have the script, when running, turn that off first and replace it by the
                                            > better version. Never exclude visitors without script.
                                            >
                                            > By the way my sample design employs the CSS solution in the left menu
                                            > and it shows the problems with that. Try moving down to a certain top
                                            > menu entry from the top, you'll fail. I ought to write a script with
                                            > delay for that, but then we all ought to do many things ...
                                            >
                                            > Axel
                                            >
                                            >


                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Axel Berger
                                            ... Not odd at all, self-inflicted. In Firefox the setting is found in Tools-- Options-- Content-- Colors-- Allow pages...-- No The reason is that now all text
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Mar 28, 2011
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                                              Ray Shapp wrote:
                                              > That's odd!

                                              Not odd at all, self-inflicted. In Firefox the setting is found in
                                              Tools-->Options-->Content-->Colors-->Allow pages...-->No

                                              The reason is that now all text on all pages is optimally legible
                                              whatever bad contrast and noisy background a misguided designer-artist
                                              may have chosen. As Jacob Nielsen keeps saying, people do not browse to
                                              pages to admire their beauty but to find things and get things done as
                                              quickly and as efficiently as possible. The default background of all
                                              elements except <BODY> is transparent and if I forbid changing that,
                                              that's what I'll get and hovering in front of other content won't work
                                              for text.

                                              Your mileage may vary, but whenever I turn colours back on for a page
                                              like that one I tend to leave it on for a while and I find that very
                                              soon the terrible abominations of taste I'm confronted with make me turn
                                              it off very soon again. But be that as it may, it is a fully legal
                                              setting that ALL browsers offer right there as a menu switch, so just
                                              like script on and off, a minimum font size, and varying window size
                                              conscientious designers have to be prepared for it and ensure their
                                              designs basic useability. An ugly kludge is fine, it is self inflicted
                                              by the visitor after all, but useable it has to be.

                                              One possibility would be hover an image, one white pixel with width and
                                              height in em, and hover the text in front of that. Contrary to script
                                              there is no way, not even employing script, to find out what the
                                              vistor's settings are so it's not possible to employ the cludge only
                                              when needed. With bad luck your image has exactly the visitor's font
                                              colour and will make things even worse.
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