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Re: [NH] Working with frame sets...

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  • Greg Chapman
    Hi Joe, ... So you didn t do what the first paragraph suggested and reduce the size of your window or add more content to the page? :-) ... The specs for HTML
    Message 1 of 20 , Feb 28, 2010
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      Hi Joe,

      On 01 Mar 10 01:31 "jmgledhill" <jmgledhill@...> said:
      > I ran your code as suggested and it worked fine! That is what I
      > want and I assume that the left side will not scroll where the right
      > side will?

      So you didn't do what the first paragraph suggested and reduce the
      size of your window or add more content to the page? :-)

      > I got great help on the frames and it is working well to so why do
      > you feel it is an obsolete technique?

      The specs for HTML 4.01 were published in December 1999, so have been
      around for over ten years. The W3C would have expected all new sites
      constructed since then to use the STRICT doctype. That specification
      bans the use of FRAMESET, FRAME and NOFRAME, so you cannot produce a
      site that uses them and have code that will pass validation.

      The TRANSITIONAL doctype that you are currently using does allow them,
      but was only intended to be used for updating an existing site. Ten
      years on and a complete rebuild of the type you are contemplating
      should prompt you to use best practice coding techniques.

      While it's true that most modern browsers are exceedingly forgving in
      handling invalid and elderly code, so that many people will say "Why
      bother?", but a further reason for using the best modern pratice is to
      allow for new technologies that have developed since 1999. These days
      more many people are using PDAs Smartphones, netbooks, etc, to access
      the web and some of these devices do not handle old coding techniques,
      like frames, as well as a browser on a desktop computer.

      > Others seem to thing what I have done so far is OK.

      Others have, perhaps, chosen simply to answer your questions rather
      than open a can of worms by advising on the best approach. Answering a
      question in the form that you know a questioner will be able to
      implement is less hassle than challenging their whole approach. Who
      can blame them for going for the easy life? :-)

      > I am reading up on div but and I do plan on using the li for the
      > menu items later after I get other stuff fixed in css.

      It's good to know that you are reading up on DIVs. I saw that your
      current site uses a minimal external stylesheet, so I know you know
      how to implement one. Using <divs> and CSS should prove to be a
      trivial bit of new learning but with a fundamental impact on the
      quality of your site building. My demo file used an internal
      stylesheet, but I would expect you to export it as a separate file
      when used in your updated site.

      I am assuming that when you say you are fixing things in CSS you are
      planning to take the opportunity to remove all those BLOCKQUOTE and BR
      tags. You seem to use these elements a lot to produce indentation and
      breaks between paragraphs. I would urge you to use the appropriate <p>
      tags for your body text and use CSS to add any non-standard margins
      where you want them (e.g. add a margin in your CSS for <h1> instead of
      adding a <br>). Use of appropriate tags, can help with search engine
      rankings.

      Now that's probably far more than you wanted to handle, but I think
      will bring your coding quality on in leaps an bounds. :-)

      OK, one more example snippet of code to add to the stylesheet on that
      demo file I posted earlier. Change the h1 styling segment to read:

      #main h1 {
      margin-bottom: 1em;
      margin-top: 0em;
      font-size: 2em;
      font-family: "Times New Roman",Times,serif;
      border: 1px solid #cccccc;
      background-color: #660000;
      padding-top: 0.25em;
      color: white;
      text-align: center;
      padding-bottom: 0.25em;
      }

      There's a lot more there than a bit of bottom margin to replace the
      <br> tag and CSS centering of the heading rather than the HTML
      attribute that you are currently using, but with your current method
      you'd have to go through every page and change the code. With CSS
      every page alters with just the change to the CSS file.

      And that definitely is more than enough for you to chew on! :-)

      Greg
    • Michael Rawley
      Hi Joe, Let me add my two penniworth. As has been said, Frames are on their way out. The reason that they still work is that if browsers no longer react to
      Message 2 of 20 , Mar 1, 2010
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        Hi Joe,

        Let me add my two penniworth. As has been said, Frames are on their way
        out. The reason that they still work is that if browsers no longer react
        to them, too many webmasters are going to have to burn the the midnight oil.

        At the same time you can't get too up-to-date because browsers have not
        caught up to the latest standards, apart from which some people still
        use out-of-date browsers.

        In my web writing tutorial, I have tried to keep to the latest standards
        that on the whole work in most browsers. Having said that, we are due to
        get a new standard during this year!

        Regards,

        Michael,
        www.normist.co.uk
      • Greg Chapman
        Hi Michael, ... Even more reason for recommending that any new project should be done to a HTML4.01 STRICT doctype then! (i.e. No Frames!) Once browsers have
        Message 3 of 20 , Mar 1, 2010
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          Hi Michael,

          On 01 Mar 10 09:14 Michael Rawley <rawley@...> said:

          > we are due to get a new standard during this year!

          Even more reason for recommending that any new project should be done
          to a HTML4.01 STRICT doctype then! (i.e. No Frames!)

          Once browsers have caught up to handle it, the job of updating to th
          new standard will be so much easier. No point in setting yourself up
          for another complete re-build in a couple of years time.

          (My understanding is that HTML5 will not require a major rebuild of
          existing 4.01 STRICT code. It will just add a few bells and whistles
          to make some popular features easy to implement, e.g. rounded corners
          will no longer require a host of miniature graphics to implement.)

          Greg Chapman
          http://www.gregtutor.plus.com
          Helping new users of KompoZer and The GIMP
        • Axel Berger
          ... Not quite. and are alowed neither in strict nor in transitional but only in frameset. I do not use strict myself, because I insist on
          Message 4 of 20 , Mar 1, 2010
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            Greg Chapman wrote:
            > Even more reason for recommending that any new project should be done
            > to a HTML4.01 STRICT doctype then! (i.e. No Frames!)

            Not quite. <FRAME> and <FRAMESET> are alowed neither in strict nor in
            transitional but only in frameset. I do not use strict myself, because I
            insist on being able to use tags like <CENTER> and attributes like ALIGN
            for a little minimal styling in browsers without CSS support - I test my
            pages in Netscape 4.8. But apart from that I adhere to the strict rules
            even if not binding myself to them.

            Apart from that I wholeheartedly agree about frames. The resize exremely
            badly with the window size and they make it impossible to bookmark
            relevant pages, both hurting the visitor very much. Even if not using
            SSI, Notetab makes it extremely easy to do the same change in a whole
            bunch of pages in one go, thus invalidating the main reason for them.

            Axel
          • Marcelo Bastos
            Tidy is a great tool and I use it a lot. Unfortunately, the official version is still stuck in HTML 4/XHTML, so attempting to use HTML5 elements causes a lot
            Message 5 of 20 , Aug 5, 2012
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              Tidy is a great tool and I use it a lot. Unfortunately, the official
              version is still stuck in HTML 4/XHTML, so attempting to use HTML5
              elements causes a lot of noise in the error log.

              But of course, being free software, somebody is taking care of this
              problem. An experimental fork of Tidy is being developed here:

              http://w3c.github.com/tidy-html5/

              A Windows build (dated from April, so not the latest cutting-edge thing,
              but probably acceptable) can be found here:

              http://www.broerse.net/wordpress/2012/04/28/tidy-html5/

              It's supposedly not production quality software, but it might be useful
              anyway.

              --
              MCBastos

              This message has been protected with the 2ROT13 algorithm. Unauthorized use will be prosecuted under the DMCA.
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            • Adrien Verlee
              ... That webpage seems to be a security risk, it is blocked by Microsoft Security Essentials -- Adrien
              Message 6 of 20 , Aug 5, 2012
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                Op 5/08/2012 20:35, Marcelo Bastos schreef:

                > http://www.broerse.net/wordpress/2012/04/28/tidy-html5/
                >

                That webpage seems to be a security risk, it is blocked by Microsoft
                Security Essentials

                --
                Adrien
              • Marcelo Bastos
                ... You re right, I checked and Google Safe Browsing gives a warning too, but the full diagnostic page is a bit ambivalent about it:
                Message 7 of 20 , Aug 5, 2012
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                  Interviewed by CNN on 05/08/2012 15:51, Adrien Verlee told the world:
                  > Op 5/08/2012 20:35, Marcelo Bastos schreef:
                  >
                  >> http://www.broerse.net/wordpress/2012/04/28/tidy-html5/
                  >>
                  > That webpage seems to be a security risk, it is blocked by Microsoft
                  > Security Essentials

                  You're right, I checked and Google Safe Browsing gives a warning too,
                  but the full diagnostic page is a bit ambivalent about it:

                  <http://www.google.com/safebrowsing/diagnostic?site=http://www.broerse.net/wordpress/2012/04/28/tidy-html5/&hl=en>

                  I didn't notice any problems, but then, I have NoScript blocking most
                  scripts... Avast didn't complain either. I think they got hacked at some
                  point in the past and some script was trying to install malware. Perhaps
                  it's fixed now and the site just wasn't cleared from the blacklists
                  yet. It's probably a bad idea to visit it with vanilla Internet
                  Explorer, particularly older version, anyway.

                  But the Tidy binary itself seems to be OK; I uploaded it to Virustotal
                  and it got a totally clean bill of health -- 0 alerts from 40 antivirus
                  products.

                  --
                  MCBastos

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