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RE: [NH] Working with frame sets...

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  • jmgledhill
    Hi, Greg... I ran your code as suggested and it worked fine! That is what I want and I assume that the left side will not scroll where the right side will? I
    Message 1 of 20 , Feb 28, 2010
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      Hi, Greg...

      I ran your code as suggested and it worked fine! That is what I want and I
      assume that the left side will not scroll where the right side will? I got
      great help on the frames and it is working well to so why do you feel it is
      an obsolete technique? Others seem to thing what I have done so far is OK.
      I am reading up on div but and I do plan on using the li for the menu items
      later after I get other stuff fixed in css.

      Now my latest: This css doesn't work... I don't know why and am going
      nuts... Here is my code and I'm hoping you will look at at and tell me why
      it won't work.

      Thanks, Joe


      <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"
      "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd">
      <HTML>
      <HEAD>
      <TITLE>CSS Master</TITLE>
      </HEAD>
      <LINK REL="StyleSheet" HREF="Style4.css" TYPE="text/css">
      <BODY>

      <STYLE>
      <!--
      BODY {background-color:#999966;
      color:#660000;
      font-family:Tahoma,Sans-serif;
      font-weight:bold;
      font-size:95%; }
      -->
      </STYLE>

      <STYLE>
      <!--
      a:link {color:#660000; background:transparent; font-weight:bold;
      font-family:Tahoma,Sans-serif; }
      a:visited {color:#000000; background:transparent; font-weight:bold;
      font-family:Tahoma,Sans-serif; }
      a:active {color:#663333; backround:transparent; font-weight:bold;
      font-family:Tahoma,Sans-serif; }
      -->
      </STYLE>

      </BODY>
      </HTML>


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Don - HtmlFixIt.com
      much nicer if you simply post your page and then give us a link beats long pastes etc. and we can see it in context
      Message 2 of 20 , Feb 28, 2010
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        much nicer if you simply post your page and then give us a link
        beats long pastes etc. and we can see it in context

        > Now my latest: This css doesn't work... I don't know why and am going
        > nuts... Here is my code and I'm hoping you will look at at and tell me why
        > it won't work.
      • woodysnomad
        How would I do that? I am working in NoteTab Pro on my computer and the pages have not been forwarded to the comcast server until they are working ones.
        Message 3 of 20 , Feb 28, 2010
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          How would I do that? I am working in NoteTab Pro on my computer and the pages have not been forwarded to the comcast server until they are working ones.

          --- In ntb-html@yahoogroups.com, "Don - HtmlFixIt.com" <don@...> wrote:
          >
          > much nicer if you simply post your page and then give us a link
          > beats long pastes etc. and we can see it in context
          >
          > > Now my latest: This css doesn't work... I don't know why and am going
          > > nuts... Here is my code and I'm hoping you will look at at and tell me why
          > > it won't work.
          >
        • Don - HtmlFixIt.com
          post the broken page to comcast like create a directory called test or demo and put the broken pages there and then we can trouble shoot them
          Message 4 of 20 , Feb 28, 2010
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            post the broken page to comcast like
            create a directory called "test" or "demo" and put the broken pages
            there and then we can trouble shoot them

            On 2/28/2010 10:09 PM, woodysnomad wrote:
            > How would I do that? I am working in NoteTab Pro on my computer and the pages have not been forwarded to the comcast server until they are working ones.
          • Greg Chapman
            Hi Joe, ... So you didn t do what the first paragraph suggested and reduce the size of your window or add more content to the page? :-) ... The specs for HTML
            Message 5 of 20 , Feb 28, 2010
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              Hi Joe,

              On 01 Mar 10 01:31 "jmgledhill" <jmgledhill@...> said:
              > I ran your code as suggested and it worked fine! That is what I
              > want and I assume that the left side will not scroll where the right
              > side will?

              So you didn't do what the first paragraph suggested and reduce the
              size of your window or add more content to the page? :-)

              > I got great help on the frames and it is working well to so why do
              > you feel it is an obsolete technique?

              The specs for HTML 4.01 were published in December 1999, so have been
              around for over ten years. The W3C would have expected all new sites
              constructed since then to use the STRICT doctype. That specification
              bans the use of FRAMESET, FRAME and NOFRAME, so you cannot produce a
              site that uses them and have code that will pass validation.

              The TRANSITIONAL doctype that you are currently using does allow them,
              but was only intended to be used for updating an existing site. Ten
              years on and a complete rebuild of the type you are contemplating
              should prompt you to use best practice coding techniques.

              While it's true that most modern browsers are exceedingly forgving in
              handling invalid and elderly code, so that many people will say "Why
              bother?", but a further reason for using the best modern pratice is to
              allow for new technologies that have developed since 1999. These days
              more many people are using PDAs Smartphones, netbooks, etc, to access
              the web and some of these devices do not handle old coding techniques,
              like frames, as well as a browser on a desktop computer.

              > Others seem to thing what I have done so far is OK.

              Others have, perhaps, chosen simply to answer your questions rather
              than open a can of worms by advising on the best approach. Answering a
              question in the form that you know a questioner will be able to
              implement is less hassle than challenging their whole approach. Who
              can blame them for going for the easy life? :-)

              > I am reading up on div but and I do plan on using the li for the
              > menu items later after I get other stuff fixed in css.

              It's good to know that you are reading up on DIVs. I saw that your
              current site uses a minimal external stylesheet, so I know you know
              how to implement one. Using <divs> and CSS should prove to be a
              trivial bit of new learning but with a fundamental impact on the
              quality of your site building. My demo file used an internal
              stylesheet, but I would expect you to export it as a separate file
              when used in your updated site.

              I am assuming that when you say you are fixing things in CSS you are
              planning to take the opportunity to remove all those BLOCKQUOTE and BR
              tags. You seem to use these elements a lot to produce indentation and
              breaks between paragraphs. I would urge you to use the appropriate <p>
              tags for your body text and use CSS to add any non-standard margins
              where you want them (e.g. add a margin in your CSS for <h1> instead of
              adding a <br>). Use of appropriate tags, can help with search engine
              rankings.

              Now that's probably far more than you wanted to handle, but I think
              will bring your coding quality on in leaps an bounds. :-)

              OK, one more example snippet of code to add to the stylesheet on that
              demo file I posted earlier. Change the h1 styling segment to read:

              #main h1 {
              margin-bottom: 1em;
              margin-top: 0em;
              font-size: 2em;
              font-family: "Times New Roman",Times,serif;
              border: 1px solid #cccccc;
              background-color: #660000;
              padding-top: 0.25em;
              color: white;
              text-align: center;
              padding-bottom: 0.25em;
              }

              There's a lot more there than a bit of bottom margin to replace the
              <br> tag and CSS centering of the heading rather than the HTML
              attribute that you are currently using, but with your current method
              you'd have to go through every page and change the code. With CSS
              every page alters with just the change to the CSS file.

              And that definitely is more than enough for you to chew on! :-)

              Greg
            • Michael Rawley
              Hi Joe, Let me add my two penniworth. As has been said, Frames are on their way out. The reason that they still work is that if browsers no longer react to
              Message 6 of 20 , Mar 1, 2010
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                Hi Joe,

                Let me add my two penniworth. As has been said, Frames are on their way
                out. The reason that they still work is that if browsers no longer react
                to them, too many webmasters are going to have to burn the the midnight oil.

                At the same time you can't get too up-to-date because browsers have not
                caught up to the latest standards, apart from which some people still
                use out-of-date browsers.

                In my web writing tutorial, I have tried to keep to the latest standards
                that on the whole work in most browsers. Having said that, we are due to
                get a new standard during this year!

                Regards,

                Michael,
                www.normist.co.uk
              • Greg Chapman
                Hi Michael, ... Even more reason for recommending that any new project should be done to a HTML4.01 STRICT doctype then! (i.e. No Frames!) Once browsers have
                Message 7 of 20 , Mar 1, 2010
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                  Hi Michael,

                  On 01 Mar 10 09:14 Michael Rawley <rawley@...> said:

                  > we are due to get a new standard during this year!

                  Even more reason for recommending that any new project should be done
                  to a HTML4.01 STRICT doctype then! (i.e. No Frames!)

                  Once browsers have caught up to handle it, the job of updating to th
                  new standard will be so much easier. No point in setting yourself up
                  for another complete re-build in a couple of years time.

                  (My understanding is that HTML5 will not require a major rebuild of
                  existing 4.01 STRICT code. It will just add a few bells and whistles
                  to make some popular features easy to implement, e.g. rounded corners
                  will no longer require a host of miniature graphics to implement.)

                  Greg Chapman
                  http://www.gregtutor.plus.com
                  Helping new users of KompoZer and The GIMP
                • Axel Berger
                  ... Not quite. and are alowed neither in strict nor in transitional but only in frameset. I do not use strict myself, because I insist on
                  Message 8 of 20 , Mar 1, 2010
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                    Greg Chapman wrote:
                    > Even more reason for recommending that any new project should be done
                    > to a HTML4.01 STRICT doctype then! (i.e. No Frames!)

                    Not quite. <FRAME> and <FRAMESET> are alowed neither in strict nor in
                    transitional but only in frameset. I do not use strict myself, because I
                    insist on being able to use tags like <CENTER> and attributes like ALIGN
                    for a little minimal styling in browsers without CSS support - I test my
                    pages in Netscape 4.8. But apart from that I adhere to the strict rules
                    even if not binding myself to them.

                    Apart from that I wholeheartedly agree about frames. The resize exremely
                    badly with the window size and they make it impossible to bookmark
                    relevant pages, both hurting the visitor very much. Even if not using
                    SSI, Notetab makes it extremely easy to do the same change in a whole
                    bunch of pages in one go, thus invalidating the main reason for them.

                    Axel
                  • Marcelo Bastos
                    Tidy is a great tool and I use it a lot. Unfortunately, the official version is still stuck in HTML 4/XHTML, so attempting to use HTML5 elements causes a lot
                    Message 9 of 20 , Aug 5, 2012
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                      Tidy is a great tool and I use it a lot. Unfortunately, the official
                      version is still stuck in HTML 4/XHTML, so attempting to use HTML5
                      elements causes a lot of noise in the error log.

                      But of course, being free software, somebody is taking care of this
                      problem. An experimental fork of Tidy is being developed here:

                      http://w3c.github.com/tidy-html5/

                      A Windows build (dated from April, so not the latest cutting-edge thing,
                      but probably acceptable) can be found here:

                      http://www.broerse.net/wordpress/2012/04/28/tidy-html5/

                      It's supposedly not production quality software, but it might be useful
                      anyway.

                      --
                      MCBastos

                      This message has been protected with the 2ROT13 algorithm. Unauthorized use will be prosecuted under the DMCA.
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                    • Adrien Verlee
                      ... That webpage seems to be a security risk, it is blocked by Microsoft Security Essentials -- Adrien
                      Message 10 of 20 , Aug 5, 2012
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                        Op 5/08/2012 20:35, Marcelo Bastos schreef:

                        > http://www.broerse.net/wordpress/2012/04/28/tidy-html5/
                        >

                        That webpage seems to be a security risk, it is blocked by Microsoft
                        Security Essentials

                        --
                        Adrien
                      • Marcelo Bastos
                        ... You re right, I checked and Google Safe Browsing gives a warning too, but the full diagnostic page is a bit ambivalent about it:
                        Message 11 of 20 , Aug 5, 2012
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                          Interviewed by CNN on 05/08/2012 15:51, Adrien Verlee told the world:
                          > Op 5/08/2012 20:35, Marcelo Bastos schreef:
                          >
                          >> http://www.broerse.net/wordpress/2012/04/28/tidy-html5/
                          >>
                          > That webpage seems to be a security risk, it is blocked by Microsoft
                          > Security Essentials

                          You're right, I checked and Google Safe Browsing gives a warning too,
                          but the full diagnostic page is a bit ambivalent about it:

                          <http://www.google.com/safebrowsing/diagnostic?site=http://www.broerse.net/wordpress/2012/04/28/tidy-html5/&hl=en>

                          I didn't notice any problems, but then, I have NoScript blocking most
                          scripts... Avast didn't complain either. I think they got hacked at some
                          point in the past and some script was trying to install malware. Perhaps
                          it's fixed now and the site just wasn't cleared from the blacklists
                          yet. It's probably a bad idea to visit it with vanilla Internet
                          Explorer, particularly older version, anyway.

                          But the Tidy binary itself seems to be OK; I uploaded it to Virustotal
                          and it got a totally clean bill of health -- 0 alerts from 40 antivirus
                          products.

                          --
                          MCBastos

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