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Re: [NH] Working with frame sets...

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  • Greg Chapman
    Hi Wood, ... I m sure the guys at UK-HBBR ( http://ukhbbr.wordpress.com/ ) would be please to hear from you! ... Yes! Don t! Frames are an extremely last
    Message 1 of 20 , Feb 28, 2010
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      Hi Wood,

      On 28 Feb 10 02:14 "woodysnomad" <jmgledhill@...> said:
      > I have a web site showing how I am building a cedar stripper canoe.

      I'm sure the guys at UK-HBBR ( http://ukhbbr.wordpress.com/ ) would be
      please to hear from you!

      > I want to convert my site to a frameset format with 2 vertical
      > frames
      ...
      > Any ideas?

      Yes! Don't!

      Frames are an extremely last century way of doing things. Search
      engines don't perform well with frames. Visitors get left without the
      menu to navigate the site. The site will be a nightmare in any modern
      tabbed browser.

      You'd be much better off with a page set in divisions, and styled with
      CSS using the appropriate tag for your menu, a list.

      Save the contents of the code between the double lines in an file with
      an HTML extension and load it in your browser for a demo of what I
      have in mind. If this approach appeals - It should! - I'm happy to
      talk you through an explanation of every line of code if it shouldn't
      make sense to you.

      ====================================================================
      <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN"
      "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd">

      <html>
      <head>
      <meta content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"
      http-equiv="content-type">

      <title>Master Page</title>
      <style type="text/css">
      body {
      margin: 0;
      color: #660000;
      background-color: #999966;
      font-family: Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;
      }
      #sidebar {
      float: left;
      width: 150px;
      background-color: #cccccc;
      position: fixed;
      height: 100%;
      }
      #sidebar p {
      font-weight: bold;
      text-align: center;
      }
      #main {
      padding-left: 5px;
      padding-right: 5px;
      margin-left: 150px;
      }
      #vmenu {
      font-weight: bold;
      text-align: center;
      font-size: 0.8em;
      width: 115px;
      margin-left: auto;
      margin-right: auto;
      }
      #vmenu ul {
      margin: 0;
      padding: 0;
      line-height: 2em;
      list-style-type: none;
      }
      #vmenu li, #vmenu a:hover {
      color: white;
      background-color: #660000;
      }
      #vmenu a {
      color: #660000;
      background-color: #999966;
      display: block;
      text-decoration: none;
      }
      #main h1 {
      margin-bottom: 0em;
      margin-top: 0em;
      font-size: 2em;
      font-family: "Times New Roman",Times,serif;
      }

      </style>
      </head>

      <body>
      <div id="sidebar">
      <p>Menu</p>

      <div id="vmenu">
      <ul>
      <li>HOME</li>

      <li><a href="#">OPTION 2</a></li>

      <li><a href="#">OPTION 3</a></li>

      <li><a href="#">OPTION 4</a></li>
      </ul>
      </div>
      </div>

      <div id="main">
      <h1>Page Title</h1>

      <p>Add more text here or reduce the window size to see the
      scrollbar appear.</p>

      <p>Here is the main text. Here is the main text. Here is the main
      text. Here is the main text. Here is the main text. Here is the main
      text. Here is the main text. Here is the main text. Here is the main
      text. Here is the main text.</p>

      <p>Here is the main text. Here is the main text. Here is the main
      text. Here is the main text. Here is the main text. Here is the main
      text.</p>

      <p>Here is the main text. Here is the main text. Here is the main
      text. Here is the main text. Here is the main text. Here is the main
      text. Here is the main text. Here is the main text. Here is the main
      text. Here is the main text.</p>

      <p>Here is the main text. Here is the main text. Here is the main
      text. Here is the main text. Here is the main text. Here is the main
      text.</p>

      <p>Here is the main text. Here is the main text. Here is the main
      text. Here is the main text. Here is the main text. Here is the main
      text. Here is the main text. Here is the main text. Here is the main
      text. Here is the main text.</p>

      <p>Here is the main text. Here is the main text. Here is the main
      text. Here is the main text. Here is the main text. Here is the main
      text.</p>

      <p>Here is the main text. Here is the main text. Here is the main
      text. Here is the main text. Here is the main text. Here is the main
      text. Here is the main text. Here is the main text. Here is the main
      text. Here is the main text.</p>

      <p>Here is the main text. Here is the main text. Here is the main
      text. Here is the main text. Here is the main text. Here is the main
      text.</p>
      </div>
      </body>
      </html>
      ====================================================================

      Greg Chapman
    • jmgledhill
      Hi, Greg... I ran your code as suggested and it worked fine! That is what I want and I assume that the left side will not scroll where the right side will? I
      Message 2 of 20 , Feb 28, 2010
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        Hi, Greg...

        I ran your code as suggested and it worked fine! That is what I want and I
        assume that the left side will not scroll where the right side will? I got
        great help on the frames and it is working well to so why do you feel it is
        an obsolete technique? Others seem to thing what I have done so far is OK.
        I am reading up on div but and I do plan on using the li for the menu items
        later after I get other stuff fixed in css.

        Now my latest: This css doesn't work... I don't know why and am going
        nuts... Here is my code and I'm hoping you will look at at and tell me why
        it won't work.

        Thanks, Joe


        <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"
        "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd">
        <HTML>
        <HEAD>
        <TITLE>CSS Master</TITLE>
        </HEAD>
        <LINK REL="StyleSheet" HREF="Style4.css" TYPE="text/css">
        <BODY>

        <STYLE>
        <!--
        BODY {background-color:#999966;
        color:#660000;
        font-family:Tahoma,Sans-serif;
        font-weight:bold;
        font-size:95%; }
        -->
        </STYLE>

        <STYLE>
        <!--
        a:link {color:#660000; background:transparent; font-weight:bold;
        font-family:Tahoma,Sans-serif; }
        a:visited {color:#000000; background:transparent; font-weight:bold;
        font-family:Tahoma,Sans-serif; }
        a:active {color:#663333; backround:transparent; font-weight:bold;
        font-family:Tahoma,Sans-serif; }
        -->
        </STYLE>

        </BODY>
        </HTML>


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Don - HtmlFixIt.com
        much nicer if you simply post your page and then give us a link beats long pastes etc. and we can see it in context
        Message 3 of 20 , Feb 28, 2010
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          much nicer if you simply post your page and then give us a link
          beats long pastes etc. and we can see it in context

          > Now my latest: This css doesn't work... I don't know why and am going
          > nuts... Here is my code and I'm hoping you will look at at and tell me why
          > it won't work.
        • woodysnomad
          How would I do that? I am working in NoteTab Pro on my computer and the pages have not been forwarded to the comcast server until they are working ones.
          Message 4 of 20 , Feb 28, 2010
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            How would I do that? I am working in NoteTab Pro on my computer and the pages have not been forwarded to the comcast server until they are working ones.

            --- In ntb-html@yahoogroups.com, "Don - HtmlFixIt.com" <don@...> wrote:
            >
            > much nicer if you simply post your page and then give us a link
            > beats long pastes etc. and we can see it in context
            >
            > > Now my latest: This css doesn't work... I don't know why and am going
            > > nuts... Here is my code and I'm hoping you will look at at and tell me why
            > > it won't work.
            >
          • Don - HtmlFixIt.com
            post the broken page to comcast like create a directory called test or demo and put the broken pages there and then we can trouble shoot them
            Message 5 of 20 , Feb 28, 2010
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              post the broken page to comcast like
              create a directory called "test" or "demo" and put the broken pages
              there and then we can trouble shoot them

              On 2/28/2010 10:09 PM, woodysnomad wrote:
              > How would I do that? I am working in NoteTab Pro on my computer and the pages have not been forwarded to the comcast server until they are working ones.
            • Greg Chapman
              Hi Joe, ... So you didn t do what the first paragraph suggested and reduce the size of your window or add more content to the page? :-) ... The specs for HTML
              Message 6 of 20 , Feb 28, 2010
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                Hi Joe,

                On 01 Mar 10 01:31 "jmgledhill" <jmgledhill@...> said:
                > I ran your code as suggested and it worked fine! That is what I
                > want and I assume that the left side will not scroll where the right
                > side will?

                So you didn't do what the first paragraph suggested and reduce the
                size of your window or add more content to the page? :-)

                > I got great help on the frames and it is working well to so why do
                > you feel it is an obsolete technique?

                The specs for HTML 4.01 were published in December 1999, so have been
                around for over ten years. The W3C would have expected all new sites
                constructed since then to use the STRICT doctype. That specification
                bans the use of FRAMESET, FRAME and NOFRAME, so you cannot produce a
                site that uses them and have code that will pass validation.

                The TRANSITIONAL doctype that you are currently using does allow them,
                but was only intended to be used for updating an existing site. Ten
                years on and a complete rebuild of the type you are contemplating
                should prompt you to use best practice coding techniques.

                While it's true that most modern browsers are exceedingly forgving in
                handling invalid and elderly code, so that many people will say "Why
                bother?", but a further reason for using the best modern pratice is to
                allow for new technologies that have developed since 1999. These days
                more many people are using PDAs Smartphones, netbooks, etc, to access
                the web and some of these devices do not handle old coding techniques,
                like frames, as well as a browser on a desktop computer.

                > Others seem to thing what I have done so far is OK.

                Others have, perhaps, chosen simply to answer your questions rather
                than open a can of worms by advising on the best approach. Answering a
                question in the form that you know a questioner will be able to
                implement is less hassle than challenging their whole approach. Who
                can blame them for going for the easy life? :-)

                > I am reading up on div but and I do plan on using the li for the
                > menu items later after I get other stuff fixed in css.

                It's good to know that you are reading up on DIVs. I saw that your
                current site uses a minimal external stylesheet, so I know you know
                how to implement one. Using <divs> and CSS should prove to be a
                trivial bit of new learning but with a fundamental impact on the
                quality of your site building. My demo file used an internal
                stylesheet, but I would expect you to export it as a separate file
                when used in your updated site.

                I am assuming that when you say you are fixing things in CSS you are
                planning to take the opportunity to remove all those BLOCKQUOTE and BR
                tags. You seem to use these elements a lot to produce indentation and
                breaks between paragraphs. I would urge you to use the appropriate <p>
                tags for your body text and use CSS to add any non-standard margins
                where you want them (e.g. add a margin in your CSS for <h1> instead of
                adding a <br>). Use of appropriate tags, can help with search engine
                rankings.

                Now that's probably far more than you wanted to handle, but I think
                will bring your coding quality on in leaps an bounds. :-)

                OK, one more example snippet of code to add to the stylesheet on that
                demo file I posted earlier. Change the h1 styling segment to read:

                #main h1 {
                margin-bottom: 1em;
                margin-top: 0em;
                font-size: 2em;
                font-family: "Times New Roman",Times,serif;
                border: 1px solid #cccccc;
                background-color: #660000;
                padding-top: 0.25em;
                color: white;
                text-align: center;
                padding-bottom: 0.25em;
                }

                There's a lot more there than a bit of bottom margin to replace the
                <br> tag and CSS centering of the heading rather than the HTML
                attribute that you are currently using, but with your current method
                you'd have to go through every page and change the code. With CSS
                every page alters with just the change to the CSS file.

                And that definitely is more than enough for you to chew on! :-)

                Greg
              • Michael Rawley
                Hi Joe, Let me add my two penniworth. As has been said, Frames are on their way out. The reason that they still work is that if browsers no longer react to
                Message 7 of 20 , Mar 1, 2010
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                  Hi Joe,

                  Let me add my two penniworth. As has been said, Frames are on their way
                  out. The reason that they still work is that if browsers no longer react
                  to them, too many webmasters are going to have to burn the the midnight oil.

                  At the same time you can't get too up-to-date because browsers have not
                  caught up to the latest standards, apart from which some people still
                  use out-of-date browsers.

                  In my web writing tutorial, I have tried to keep to the latest standards
                  that on the whole work in most browsers. Having said that, we are due to
                  get a new standard during this year!

                  Regards,

                  Michael,
                  www.normist.co.uk
                • Greg Chapman
                  Hi Michael, ... Even more reason for recommending that any new project should be done to a HTML4.01 STRICT doctype then! (i.e. No Frames!) Once browsers have
                  Message 8 of 20 , Mar 1, 2010
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                    Hi Michael,

                    On 01 Mar 10 09:14 Michael Rawley <rawley@...> said:

                    > we are due to get a new standard during this year!

                    Even more reason for recommending that any new project should be done
                    to a HTML4.01 STRICT doctype then! (i.e. No Frames!)

                    Once browsers have caught up to handle it, the job of updating to th
                    new standard will be so much easier. No point in setting yourself up
                    for another complete re-build in a couple of years time.

                    (My understanding is that HTML5 will not require a major rebuild of
                    existing 4.01 STRICT code. It will just add a few bells and whistles
                    to make some popular features easy to implement, e.g. rounded corners
                    will no longer require a host of miniature graphics to implement.)

                    Greg Chapman
                    http://www.gregtutor.plus.com
                    Helping new users of KompoZer and The GIMP
                  • Axel Berger
                    ... Not quite. and are alowed neither in strict nor in transitional but only in frameset. I do not use strict myself, because I insist on
                    Message 9 of 20 , Mar 1, 2010
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                      Greg Chapman wrote:
                      > Even more reason for recommending that any new project should be done
                      > to a HTML4.01 STRICT doctype then! (i.e. No Frames!)

                      Not quite. <FRAME> and <FRAMESET> are alowed neither in strict nor in
                      transitional but only in frameset. I do not use strict myself, because I
                      insist on being able to use tags like <CENTER> and attributes like ALIGN
                      for a little minimal styling in browsers without CSS support - I test my
                      pages in Netscape 4.8. But apart from that I adhere to the strict rules
                      even if not binding myself to them.

                      Apart from that I wholeheartedly agree about frames. The resize exremely
                      badly with the window size and they make it impossible to bookmark
                      relevant pages, both hurting the visitor very much. Even if not using
                      SSI, Notetab makes it extremely easy to do the same change in a whole
                      bunch of pages in one go, thus invalidating the main reason for them.

                      Axel
                    • Marcelo Bastos
                      Tidy is a great tool and I use it a lot. Unfortunately, the official version is still stuck in HTML 4/XHTML, so attempting to use HTML5 elements causes a lot
                      Message 10 of 20 , Aug 5, 2012
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                        Tidy is a great tool and I use it a lot. Unfortunately, the official
                        version is still stuck in HTML 4/XHTML, so attempting to use HTML5
                        elements causes a lot of noise in the error log.

                        But of course, being free software, somebody is taking care of this
                        problem. An experimental fork of Tidy is being developed here:

                        http://w3c.github.com/tidy-html5/

                        A Windows build (dated from April, so not the latest cutting-edge thing,
                        but probably acceptable) can be found here:

                        http://www.broerse.net/wordpress/2012/04/28/tidy-html5/

                        It's supposedly not production quality software, but it might be useful
                        anyway.

                        --
                        MCBastos

                        This message has been protected with the 2ROT13 algorithm. Unauthorized use will be prosecuted under the DMCA.
                        -=-=-
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                      • Adrien Verlee
                        ... That webpage seems to be a security risk, it is blocked by Microsoft Security Essentials -- Adrien
                        Message 11 of 20 , Aug 5, 2012
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                          Op 5/08/2012 20:35, Marcelo Bastos schreef:

                          > http://www.broerse.net/wordpress/2012/04/28/tidy-html5/
                          >

                          That webpage seems to be a security risk, it is blocked by Microsoft
                          Security Essentials

                          --
                          Adrien
                        • Marcelo Bastos
                          ... You re right, I checked and Google Safe Browsing gives a warning too, but the full diagnostic page is a bit ambivalent about it:
                          Message 12 of 20 , Aug 5, 2012
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                            Interviewed by CNN on 05/08/2012 15:51, Adrien Verlee told the world:
                            > Op 5/08/2012 20:35, Marcelo Bastos schreef:
                            >
                            >> http://www.broerse.net/wordpress/2012/04/28/tidy-html5/
                            >>
                            > That webpage seems to be a security risk, it is blocked by Microsoft
                            > Security Essentials

                            You're right, I checked and Google Safe Browsing gives a warning too,
                            but the full diagnostic page is a bit ambivalent about it:

                            <http://www.google.com/safebrowsing/diagnostic?site=http://www.broerse.net/wordpress/2012/04/28/tidy-html5/&hl=en>

                            I didn't notice any problems, but then, I have NoScript blocking most
                            scripts... Avast didn't complain either. I think they got hacked at some
                            point in the past and some script was trying to install malware. Perhaps
                            it's fixed now and the site just wasn't cleared from the blacklists
                            yet. It's probably a bad idea to visit it with vanilla Internet
                            Explorer, particularly older version, anyway.

                            But the Tidy binary itself seems to be OK; I uploaded it to Virustotal
                            and it got a totally clean bill of health -- 0 alerts from 40 antivirus
                            products.

                            --
                            MCBastos

                            This message has been protected with the 2ROT13 algorithm. Unauthorized use will be prosecuted under the DMCA.
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