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Re: [NH] Working with frame sets...

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  • woodysnomad
    OH YEAH... The case sensitive problem fixed about everything for now. I will finish updated some other files before proceeding with more new stuff.
    Message 1 of 20 , Feb 27, 2010
      OH YEAH... The case sensitive problem fixed about everything for now. I will finish updated some other files before proceeding with more new stuff. THANKS... I still would like to known where I put the <BASE TARGET =<main> to eliminate the need for the TARGET in each of the sections. It would simplify the code.... Off to sleep now...

      --- In ntb-html@yahoogroups.com, loro <tabbie@...> wrote:
      >
      > Joe wrote:
      > > <FRAME NAME= "main" SRC= "F_Opening.htm">
      > <snip>
      > >•  <A HREF="F_Opening.htm" TARGET= "Main" >Home
      > >Page</A><br><br>
      > >•  <A HREF="F_Thanks.htm" TARGET= "Main" >A Special
      > >Thanks</A><br><br>
      > >•  <A HREF="Stations_Stems.htm" TARGET= "Main" >Stem
      > >& Station Molds</A><br><br>
      >
      > The links open in a new window, right? The value of "name" is case
      > sensitive. You've named the frame "main" but target "Main". So the
      > browser opens a new named window, same as it would if you wrote
      > target=Lotta" or target="Joe". Simple as that. :-)
      >
      > Lotta
      >
    • loro
      ... In HEAD. Of F_NavList.htm . Lotta
      Message 2 of 20 , Feb 27, 2010
        Joe wrote:
        >I still would like to known where I put the <BASE TARGET =<main> to
        >eliminate the need for the TARGET in each of the sections.

        In HEAD. Of F_NavList.htm .

        Lotta
      • Greg Chapman
        Hi Wood, ... I m sure the guys at UK-HBBR ( http://ukhbbr.wordpress.com/ ) would be please to hear from you! ... Yes! Don t! Frames are an extremely last
        Message 3 of 20 , Feb 28, 2010
          Hi Wood,

          On 28 Feb 10 02:14 "woodysnomad" <jmgledhill@...> said:
          > I have a web site showing how I am building a cedar stripper canoe.

          I'm sure the guys at UK-HBBR ( http://ukhbbr.wordpress.com/ ) would be
          please to hear from you!

          > I want to convert my site to a frameset format with 2 vertical
          > frames
          ...
          > Any ideas?

          Yes! Don't!

          Frames are an extremely last century way of doing things. Search
          engines don't perform well with frames. Visitors get left without the
          menu to navigate the site. The site will be a nightmare in any modern
          tabbed browser.

          You'd be much better off with a page set in divisions, and styled with
          CSS using the appropriate tag for your menu, a list.

          Save the contents of the code between the double lines in an file with
          an HTML extension and load it in your browser for a demo of what I
          have in mind. If this approach appeals - It should! - I'm happy to
          talk you through an explanation of every line of code if it shouldn't
          make sense to you.

          ====================================================================
          <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN"
          "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd">

          <html>
          <head>
          <meta content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"
          http-equiv="content-type">

          <title>Master Page</title>
          <style type="text/css">
          body {
          margin: 0;
          color: #660000;
          background-color: #999966;
          font-family: Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;
          }
          #sidebar {
          float: left;
          width: 150px;
          background-color: #cccccc;
          position: fixed;
          height: 100%;
          }
          #sidebar p {
          font-weight: bold;
          text-align: center;
          }
          #main {
          padding-left: 5px;
          padding-right: 5px;
          margin-left: 150px;
          }
          #vmenu {
          font-weight: bold;
          text-align: center;
          font-size: 0.8em;
          width: 115px;
          margin-left: auto;
          margin-right: auto;
          }
          #vmenu ul {
          margin: 0;
          padding: 0;
          line-height: 2em;
          list-style-type: none;
          }
          #vmenu li, #vmenu a:hover {
          color: white;
          background-color: #660000;
          }
          #vmenu a {
          color: #660000;
          background-color: #999966;
          display: block;
          text-decoration: none;
          }
          #main h1 {
          margin-bottom: 0em;
          margin-top: 0em;
          font-size: 2em;
          font-family: "Times New Roman",Times,serif;
          }

          </style>
          </head>

          <body>
          <div id="sidebar">
          <p>Menu</p>

          <div id="vmenu">
          <ul>
          <li>HOME</li>

          <li><a href="#">OPTION 2</a></li>

          <li><a href="#">OPTION 3</a></li>

          <li><a href="#">OPTION 4</a></li>
          </ul>
          </div>
          </div>

          <div id="main">
          <h1>Page Title</h1>

          <p>Add more text here or reduce the window size to see the
          scrollbar appear.</p>

          <p>Here is the main text. Here is the main text. Here is the main
          text. Here is the main text. Here is the main text. Here is the main
          text. Here is the main text. Here is the main text. Here is the main
          text. Here is the main text.</p>

          <p>Here is the main text. Here is the main text. Here is the main
          text. Here is the main text. Here is the main text. Here is the main
          text.</p>

          <p>Here is the main text. Here is the main text. Here is the main
          text. Here is the main text. Here is the main text. Here is the main
          text. Here is the main text. Here is the main text. Here is the main
          text. Here is the main text.</p>

          <p>Here is the main text. Here is the main text. Here is the main
          text. Here is the main text. Here is the main text. Here is the main
          text.</p>

          <p>Here is the main text. Here is the main text. Here is the main
          text. Here is the main text. Here is the main text. Here is the main
          text. Here is the main text. Here is the main text. Here is the main
          text. Here is the main text.</p>

          <p>Here is the main text. Here is the main text. Here is the main
          text. Here is the main text. Here is the main text. Here is the main
          text.</p>

          <p>Here is the main text. Here is the main text. Here is the main
          text. Here is the main text. Here is the main text. Here is the main
          text. Here is the main text. Here is the main text. Here is the main
          text. Here is the main text.</p>

          <p>Here is the main text. Here is the main text. Here is the main
          text. Here is the main text. Here is the main text. Here is the main
          text.</p>
          </div>
          </body>
          </html>
          ====================================================================

          Greg Chapman
        • jmgledhill
          Hi, Greg... I ran your code as suggested and it worked fine! That is what I want and I assume that the left side will not scroll where the right side will? I
          Message 4 of 20 , Feb 28, 2010
            Hi, Greg...

            I ran your code as suggested and it worked fine! That is what I want and I
            assume that the left side will not scroll where the right side will? I got
            great help on the frames and it is working well to so why do you feel it is
            an obsolete technique? Others seem to thing what I have done so far is OK.
            I am reading up on div but and I do plan on using the li for the menu items
            later after I get other stuff fixed in css.

            Now my latest: This css doesn't work... I don't know why and am going
            nuts... Here is my code and I'm hoping you will look at at and tell me why
            it won't work.

            Thanks, Joe


            <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"
            "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd">
            <HTML>
            <HEAD>
            <TITLE>CSS Master</TITLE>
            </HEAD>
            <LINK REL="StyleSheet" HREF="Style4.css" TYPE="text/css">
            <BODY>

            <STYLE>
            <!--
            BODY {background-color:#999966;
            color:#660000;
            font-family:Tahoma,Sans-serif;
            font-weight:bold;
            font-size:95%; }
            -->
            </STYLE>

            <STYLE>
            <!--
            a:link {color:#660000; background:transparent; font-weight:bold;
            font-family:Tahoma,Sans-serif; }
            a:visited {color:#000000; background:transparent; font-weight:bold;
            font-family:Tahoma,Sans-serif; }
            a:active {color:#663333; backround:transparent; font-weight:bold;
            font-family:Tahoma,Sans-serif; }
            -->
            </STYLE>

            </BODY>
            </HTML>


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Don - HtmlFixIt.com
            much nicer if you simply post your page and then give us a link beats long pastes etc. and we can see it in context
            Message 5 of 20 , Feb 28, 2010
              much nicer if you simply post your page and then give us a link
              beats long pastes etc. and we can see it in context

              > Now my latest: This css doesn't work... I don't know why and am going
              > nuts... Here is my code and I'm hoping you will look at at and tell me why
              > it won't work.
            • woodysnomad
              How would I do that? I am working in NoteTab Pro on my computer and the pages have not been forwarded to the comcast server until they are working ones.
              Message 6 of 20 , Feb 28, 2010
                How would I do that? I am working in NoteTab Pro on my computer and the pages have not been forwarded to the comcast server until they are working ones.

                --- In ntb-html@yahoogroups.com, "Don - HtmlFixIt.com" <don@...> wrote:
                >
                > much nicer if you simply post your page and then give us a link
                > beats long pastes etc. and we can see it in context
                >
                > > Now my latest: This css doesn't work... I don't know why and am going
                > > nuts... Here is my code and I'm hoping you will look at at and tell me why
                > > it won't work.
                >
              • Don - HtmlFixIt.com
                post the broken page to comcast like create a directory called test or demo and put the broken pages there and then we can trouble shoot them
                Message 7 of 20 , Feb 28, 2010
                  post the broken page to comcast like
                  create a directory called "test" or "demo" and put the broken pages
                  there and then we can trouble shoot them

                  On 2/28/2010 10:09 PM, woodysnomad wrote:
                  > How would I do that? I am working in NoteTab Pro on my computer and the pages have not been forwarded to the comcast server until they are working ones.
                • Greg Chapman
                  Hi Joe, ... So you didn t do what the first paragraph suggested and reduce the size of your window or add more content to the page? :-) ... The specs for HTML
                  Message 8 of 20 , Feb 28, 2010
                    Hi Joe,

                    On 01 Mar 10 01:31 "jmgledhill" <jmgledhill@...> said:
                    > I ran your code as suggested and it worked fine! That is what I
                    > want and I assume that the left side will not scroll where the right
                    > side will?

                    So you didn't do what the first paragraph suggested and reduce the
                    size of your window or add more content to the page? :-)

                    > I got great help on the frames and it is working well to so why do
                    > you feel it is an obsolete technique?

                    The specs for HTML 4.01 were published in December 1999, so have been
                    around for over ten years. The W3C would have expected all new sites
                    constructed since then to use the STRICT doctype. That specification
                    bans the use of FRAMESET, FRAME and NOFRAME, so you cannot produce a
                    site that uses them and have code that will pass validation.

                    The TRANSITIONAL doctype that you are currently using does allow them,
                    but was only intended to be used for updating an existing site. Ten
                    years on and a complete rebuild of the type you are contemplating
                    should prompt you to use best practice coding techniques.

                    While it's true that most modern browsers are exceedingly forgving in
                    handling invalid and elderly code, so that many people will say "Why
                    bother?", but a further reason for using the best modern pratice is to
                    allow for new technologies that have developed since 1999. These days
                    more many people are using PDAs Smartphones, netbooks, etc, to access
                    the web and some of these devices do not handle old coding techniques,
                    like frames, as well as a browser on a desktop computer.

                    > Others seem to thing what I have done so far is OK.

                    Others have, perhaps, chosen simply to answer your questions rather
                    than open a can of worms by advising on the best approach. Answering a
                    question in the form that you know a questioner will be able to
                    implement is less hassle than challenging their whole approach. Who
                    can blame them for going for the easy life? :-)

                    > I am reading up on div but and I do plan on using the li for the
                    > menu items later after I get other stuff fixed in css.

                    It's good to know that you are reading up on DIVs. I saw that your
                    current site uses a minimal external stylesheet, so I know you know
                    how to implement one. Using <divs> and CSS should prove to be a
                    trivial bit of new learning but with a fundamental impact on the
                    quality of your site building. My demo file used an internal
                    stylesheet, but I would expect you to export it as a separate file
                    when used in your updated site.

                    I am assuming that when you say you are fixing things in CSS you are
                    planning to take the opportunity to remove all those BLOCKQUOTE and BR
                    tags. You seem to use these elements a lot to produce indentation and
                    breaks between paragraphs. I would urge you to use the appropriate <p>
                    tags for your body text and use CSS to add any non-standard margins
                    where you want them (e.g. add a margin in your CSS for <h1> instead of
                    adding a <br>). Use of appropriate tags, can help with search engine
                    rankings.

                    Now that's probably far more than you wanted to handle, but I think
                    will bring your coding quality on in leaps an bounds. :-)

                    OK, one more example snippet of code to add to the stylesheet on that
                    demo file I posted earlier. Change the h1 styling segment to read:

                    #main h1 {
                    margin-bottom: 1em;
                    margin-top: 0em;
                    font-size: 2em;
                    font-family: "Times New Roman",Times,serif;
                    border: 1px solid #cccccc;
                    background-color: #660000;
                    padding-top: 0.25em;
                    color: white;
                    text-align: center;
                    padding-bottom: 0.25em;
                    }

                    There's a lot more there than a bit of bottom margin to replace the
                    <br> tag and CSS centering of the heading rather than the HTML
                    attribute that you are currently using, but with your current method
                    you'd have to go through every page and change the code. With CSS
                    every page alters with just the change to the CSS file.

                    And that definitely is more than enough for you to chew on! :-)

                    Greg
                  • Michael Rawley
                    Hi Joe, Let me add my two penniworth. As has been said, Frames are on their way out. The reason that they still work is that if browsers no longer react to
                    Message 9 of 20 , Mar 1, 2010
                      Hi Joe,

                      Let me add my two penniworth. As has been said, Frames are on their way
                      out. The reason that they still work is that if browsers no longer react
                      to them, too many webmasters are going to have to burn the the midnight oil.

                      At the same time you can't get too up-to-date because browsers have not
                      caught up to the latest standards, apart from which some people still
                      use out-of-date browsers.

                      In my web writing tutorial, I have tried to keep to the latest standards
                      that on the whole work in most browsers. Having said that, we are due to
                      get a new standard during this year!

                      Regards,

                      Michael,
                      www.normist.co.uk
                    • Greg Chapman
                      Hi Michael, ... Even more reason for recommending that any new project should be done to a HTML4.01 STRICT doctype then! (i.e. No Frames!) Once browsers have
                      Message 10 of 20 , Mar 1, 2010
                        Hi Michael,

                        On 01 Mar 10 09:14 Michael Rawley <rawley@...> said:

                        > we are due to get a new standard during this year!

                        Even more reason for recommending that any new project should be done
                        to a HTML4.01 STRICT doctype then! (i.e. No Frames!)

                        Once browsers have caught up to handle it, the job of updating to th
                        new standard will be so much easier. No point in setting yourself up
                        for another complete re-build in a couple of years time.

                        (My understanding is that HTML5 will not require a major rebuild of
                        existing 4.01 STRICT code. It will just add a few bells and whistles
                        to make some popular features easy to implement, e.g. rounded corners
                        will no longer require a host of miniature graphics to implement.)

                        Greg Chapman
                        http://www.gregtutor.plus.com
                        Helping new users of KompoZer and The GIMP
                      • Axel Berger
                        ... Not quite. and are alowed neither in strict nor in transitional but only in frameset. I do not use strict myself, because I insist on
                        Message 11 of 20 , Mar 1, 2010
                          Greg Chapman wrote:
                          > Even more reason for recommending that any new project should be done
                          > to a HTML4.01 STRICT doctype then! (i.e. No Frames!)

                          Not quite. <FRAME> and <FRAMESET> are alowed neither in strict nor in
                          transitional but only in frameset. I do not use strict myself, because I
                          insist on being able to use tags like <CENTER> and attributes like ALIGN
                          for a little minimal styling in browsers without CSS support - I test my
                          pages in Netscape 4.8. But apart from that I adhere to the strict rules
                          even if not binding myself to them.

                          Apart from that I wholeheartedly agree about frames. The resize exremely
                          badly with the window size and they make it impossible to bookmark
                          relevant pages, both hurting the visitor very much. Even if not using
                          SSI, Notetab makes it extremely easy to do the same change in a whole
                          bunch of pages in one go, thus invalidating the main reason for them.

                          Axel
                        • Marcelo Bastos
                          Tidy is a great tool and I use it a lot. Unfortunately, the official version is still stuck in HTML 4/XHTML, so attempting to use HTML5 elements causes a lot
                          Message 12 of 20 , Aug 5, 2012
                            Tidy is a great tool and I use it a lot. Unfortunately, the official
                            version is still stuck in HTML 4/XHTML, so attempting to use HTML5
                            elements causes a lot of noise in the error log.

                            But of course, being free software, somebody is taking care of this
                            problem. An experimental fork of Tidy is being developed here:

                            http://w3c.github.com/tidy-html5/

                            A Windows build (dated from April, so not the latest cutting-edge thing,
                            but probably acceptable) can be found here:

                            http://www.broerse.net/wordpress/2012/04/28/tidy-html5/

                            It's supposedly not production quality software, but it might be useful
                            anyway.

                            --
                            MCBastos

                            This message has been protected with the 2ROT13 algorithm. Unauthorized use will be prosecuted under the DMCA.
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                          • Adrien Verlee
                            ... That webpage seems to be a security risk, it is blocked by Microsoft Security Essentials -- Adrien
                            Message 13 of 20 , Aug 5, 2012
                              Op 5/08/2012 20:35, Marcelo Bastos schreef:

                              > http://www.broerse.net/wordpress/2012/04/28/tidy-html5/
                              >

                              That webpage seems to be a security risk, it is blocked by Microsoft
                              Security Essentials

                              --
                              Adrien
                            • Marcelo Bastos
                              ... You re right, I checked and Google Safe Browsing gives a warning too, but the full diagnostic page is a bit ambivalent about it:
                              Message 14 of 20 , Aug 5, 2012
                                Interviewed by CNN on 05/08/2012 15:51, Adrien Verlee told the world:
                                > Op 5/08/2012 20:35, Marcelo Bastos schreef:
                                >
                                >> http://www.broerse.net/wordpress/2012/04/28/tidy-html5/
                                >>
                                > That webpage seems to be a security risk, it is blocked by Microsoft
                                > Security Essentials

                                You're right, I checked and Google Safe Browsing gives a warning too,
                                but the full diagnostic page is a bit ambivalent about it:

                                <http://www.google.com/safebrowsing/diagnostic?site=http://www.broerse.net/wordpress/2012/04/28/tidy-html5/&hl=en>

                                I didn't notice any problems, but then, I have NoScript blocking most
                                scripts... Avast didn't complain either. I think they got hacked at some
                                point in the past and some script was trying to install malware. Perhaps
                                it's fixed now and the site just wasn't cleared from the blacklists
                                yet. It's probably a bad idea to visit it with vanilla Internet
                                Explorer, particularly older version, anyway.

                                But the Tidy binary itself seems to be OK; I uploaded it to Virustotal
                                and it got a totally clean bill of health -- 0 alerts from 40 antivirus
                                products.

                                --
                                MCBastos

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