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  • woodysnomad
    I have a web site showing how I am building a cedar stripper canoe. My web site has a opening paragraph and then a table with links to go to all the sections
    Message 1 of 20 , Feb 27, 2010
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      I have a web site showing how I am building a cedar stripper canoe. My web site has a opening paragraph and then a table with links to go to all the sections of the site. I want to convert my site to a frameset format with 2 vertical frames with the left one being "Build Sections" and the right side being all the information. The build sections will remain in place and only the information will change. I had it working but now after the first initial display, I lose my frames. Any ideas?
      Thanks, Joe
    • Don - HtmlFixIt.com
      A link?
      Message 2 of 20 , Feb 27, 2010
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        A link?

        On 2/27/2010 9:14 PM, woodysnomad wrote:
        > I have a web site showing how I am building a cedar stripper canoe. My web site has a opening paragraph and then a table with links to go to all the sections of the site. I want to convert my site to a frameset format with 2 vertical frames with the left one being "Build Sections" and the right side being all the information. The build sections will remain in place and only the information will change. I had it working but now after the first initial display, I lose my frames. Any ideas?
        > Thanks, Joe
      • loro
        Hi Joe, ... Exactly when after the initial display? When you click a link? In that s the case I guess you use the wrong frame target (the target attribute in
        Message 3 of 20 , Feb 27, 2010
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          Hi Joe,

          >I have a web site showing how I am building a cedar stripper
          >canoe. My web site has a opening paragraph and then a table with
          >links to go to all the sections of the site. I want to convert my
          >site to a frameset format with 2 vertical frames with the left one
          >being "Build Sections" and the right side being all the
          >information. The build sections will remain in place and only the
          >information will change. I had it working but now after the first
          >initial display, I lose my frames

          Exactly when after the initial display? When you click a link? In
          that's the case I guess you use the wrong frame target (the target
          attribute in the link). Maybe you use "_top" instead of the name of
          the frame you want to target.

          Lotta
        • woodysnomad
          The link to my old site is http://nomad17.home.comcast.net The new initial display is the list of build sections in a vertical line on the left side of the
          Message 4 of 20 , Feb 27, 2010
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            The link to my old site is http://nomad17.home.comcast.net
            The new initial display is the list of build sections in a vertical line on the left side of the screen. I used "22%, *" for the 2 frames. The left side is good and the right side shows the first blurb which is a separate htm called openingpage. As soon as I clidk on one of the first 4 items, the correct information pops up but without the frames. I could only get it to work with a separate htm. I couldn't seem to link to somewhere on the same page as the navlist which also is a separte htm with only a list of the build sections. This is the code for my index.htm:
            </HEAD>
            <FRAMESET COLS= "22%, *">
            <FRAME NAME= "navlist" SRC= "F_NavList.htm">
            <FRAME NAME= "main" SRC= "F_Opening.htm">
            </FRAMESET>
            </HTML>


            This is my navlist:
            </HEAD>
            <H3>  "Build Sections"</H3>
            <p>
            •  <A HREF="F_Opening.htm" TARGET= "Main" >Home Page</A><br><br>
            •  <A HREF="F_Thanks.htm" TARGET= "Main" >A Special Thanks</A><br><br>
            •  <A HREF="Stations_Stems.htm" TARGET= "Main" >Stem & Station Molds</A><br><br>
            •  <A HREF="Stems.htm" TARGET= "Main" >Stems for Bow & Stern</A><br><br>
            •  <A HREF="Strongback.htm" TARGET= "Main" >The Strongback</A><br><br>
            •  <A HREF="Accent.htm" TARGET= "Main" >Accent Stripes</A><br><br>
            •  <A HREF="Stripping.htm" TARGET= "Main" >Stripping the Hull</A><br><br>
            •  <A HREF="Glassing.htm" TARGET= "Main" >Fiberglassing</A><br><br>
            •  <A HREF="#Gunnels" TARGET= "Main" >Installing Gunnels</A><br><br>
            •  <A HREF="#Decks" TARGET= "Main" >Installing the Decks</A><br><br>
            •  <A HREF="#Thwarts" TARGET= "Main" >Install Thwarts</A><br><br>
            •  <A HREF="#MakingSeats" TARGET= "Main" >Making the Seats</A><br><br>
            •  <A HREF="#CanningSeats" TARGET= "Main" >Canning the Seats</A><br><br>
            •  <A HREF="#Seats" TARGET= "Main" >Installing Seats</A><br><br>
            •  <A HREF="#Aka" TARGET= "Main" >Ama/Akas (Outrigger)</A><br><br>
            •  <A HREF="#Transport" TARGET= "Main" >First Transport</A><br><br>
            •  <A HREF="#Launch" TARGET= "Main" >Initial Launch</A><br>
            </p>
            </HTML>



            This is my opening page:
            </HEAD>
            <p><A NAME="Opening"></A><BR>
            <H1 ALIGN="CENTER">My Stripper Canoe</H1><BR>

            <BLOCKQUOTE>
            Shortly after being exposed to water, I found myself in love with canoes.  From the time my parents took me to a friends cottage on Pymatuning Lake, OH or when I took a trip with the YMCA to Temagami North Bay, ON, Canada or while I worked at Wagar's Pine Point on Jack Lake near Apsley, ON, Canada, whenever I had time to be by myself, it was with a canoe in a quite bay with a spinning rod and a Hula Popper plug.  In the still of the evening, the pop of the plug sounded like a small explosion and it left lasting memories.  My ultimate retreat...<BR><BR>
            What is a Stripper?  Well, it's a construction technique that primarily uses 1/4" thick by 3/4" wide Western Red Cedar wood strips to make up the shell of the canoe.  It is then covered with a layer of 6 oz. fiberglass cloth both inside and out, epoxied and then varnished.  It is called "A Stripper".<BR><BR>After I retired, I discovered a web site that was all about canoes and it was there that I learned about Ted Moores and his book "CanoeCraft".  My first book on the subject.  Not only is "Canoecraft" the bible on canoe building but Ted's company, Bear Mountain Boats, builds canoes, sells plans, materials and even kits of small scale canoes that use the exact same construction techniques as their large cousins.<BR><BR>
            Around Christmas of 2003, I bought the Canadian model kit for Joe, my son, John, my son-in-law, and myself and it was just like the one we used at Wagar's Pine Point.  I built mine and I proudly display it but I have no idea whether the other guys built theirs!  A few years later, I decided to build my own full size "Stripper" and refuse to ever answer why or try to explain.  It is just something I wanted to do...  Here we go and no one knows how long it will take...
            </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>
            </p>
            </HTML>


            And this is my Thanks. htm:
            </HEAD>
            <p>
            <A NAME="Thanks"></A><BR>
            <H2 ALIGN="CENTER">A Special Thanks to Ron Frenette and Bear Mountain Boats</H2><BR>

            <P ALIGN="CENTER">
            <A><IMG SRC="RonFrenette.jpg" BORDER="4" WIDTH="325" ALT="Photo of Ron standing
            beside my truck!"></A>    
            <A><IMG SRC="RonsGarage.jpg" BORDER="4" WIDTH="325" ALT="Photo of Ron's garage
            showing some of BMB inventory!"></A>
            </P>

            <BLOCKQUOTE>
            For months I looked at special tools, scrapers, etc. and finally decided to get serious about this canoe thing and invest in a truck rack for my Dodge Dakota.  I had found a source for WRC, Western Red Cedar, and I needed a rack to get the stuff home and to haul my new toy.  I selected a System One unit and shortly after I finished installing it, I learned that Bear Mountain Boats was having a raffle to introduce their entry into selling WRC strips.  The first prize was enough WRC strips to complete a 17' canoe and I figured this was worth about $530 US and quickly entered.<BR><BR>Sure enough, a few weeks later I was informed by Joan Barrett of Bear Mountain Boats in Peterborough, ON that I was the big winner.  Because of my location, Joan suggested I contact Ron Frenette of Canadian Canoe, Mississauga, ON to make arragnement to pick up my bounty.  Ron, Ted & Joan have had a working relationship for over 25 years and Ron stores strips etc. at his facility to save on freight, etc.  Ron was very helpful and the photo's above show Ron standing beside my Dakota with the strips loaded ready for the return trip and his garage showing all the materials being temporarily stored until his new shop is ready.  No problems with Customs and after many hours on the road, I was back home the same day with a full complement of beautiful WRC strips for my canoe.  MANY THANKS to Ron, Joan and Ted for all their help.<BR><BR><BR>The canoe that I am building is a Bear Mountain Boat Design named the "Nomad 17".  It is a 17' model that I selected considering my intended use, size, shape, etc.  The specifications are:  Length 17',  Maximum beam 35",  Beam w/l 32.6",  Beam gunnel 34",  Bow height 25",  Centre Depth 14.5",  Draft 4.5",  Displacement 416 lbs.,  Weight 55 to 65 lbs.
            </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>

            <P ALIGN="CENTER">
            <A><IMG SRC="PlanLayout.jpg" BORDER="4" WIDTH="325" ALT="Photo of BMB Canoe Plans and
            Canoecraft Book!"></A>    
            <A><IMG SRC="StripPackage.jpg" BORDER="4" WIDTH="325" ALT="Photo of my garage with
            the Prize winning strip package!"></A>
            </P>

            <BLOCKQUOTE>
            These photo's just show what the plans look like, the Canoecraft book, some carbon paper ready to be used to layout the molds and my garage which will be my home for a few months.  Note the bundle of strips wrapped in plastic wrap on the floor... MY PRIZE for winning the Bear Mountain Boat Raffle!
            </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>
            </html>



            --- In ntb-html@yahoogroups.com, loro <tabbie@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi Joe,
            >
            > >I have a web site showing how I am building a cedar stripper
            > >canoe. My web site has a opening paragraph and then a table with
            > >links to go to all the sections of the site. I want to convert my
            > >site to a frameset format with 2 vertical frames with the left one
            > >being "Build Sections" and the right side being all the
            > >information. The build sections will remain in place and only the
            > >information will change. I had it working but now after the first
            > >initial display, I lose my frames
            >
            > Exactly when after the initial display? When you click a link? In
            > that's the case I guess you use the wrong frame target (the target
            > attribute in the link). Maybe you use "_top" instead of the name of
            > the frame you want to target.
            >
            > Lotta
            >
          • woodysnomad
            After I had things working to the point that I was going to continue and modify the rest of my files, I read about the and when I tried to
            Message 5 of 20 , Feb 27, 2010
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              After I had things working to the point that I was going to continue and modify the rest of my files, I read about the <BASE TARGET="main"> and when I tried to use that instead of TARGET is each link, that's when I ran into trouble and can't get back to where I was....

              --- In ntb-html@yahoogroups.com, loro <tabbie@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi Joe,
              >
              > >I have a web site showing how I am building a cedar stripper
              > >canoe. My web site has a opening paragraph and then a table with
              > >links to go to all the sections of the site. I want to convert my
              > >site to a frameset format with 2 vertical frames with the left one
              > >being "Build Sections" and the right side being all the
              > >information. The build sections will remain in place and only the
              > >information will change. I had it working but now after the first
              > >initial display, I lose my frames
              >
              > Exactly when after the initial display? When you click a link? In
              > that's the case I guess you use the wrong frame target (the target
              > attribute in the link). Maybe you use "_top" instead of the name of
              > the frame you want to target.
              >
              > Lotta
              >
            • loro
              ... ... The links open in a new window, right? The value of name is case sensitive. You ve named the frame main but target Main . So the browser
              Message 6 of 20 , Feb 27, 2010
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                Joe wrote:
                > <FRAME NAME= "main" SRC= "F_Opening.htm">
                <snip>
                >•  <A HREF="F_Opening.htm" TARGET= "Main" >Home
                >Page</A><br><br>
                >•  <A HREF="F_Thanks.htm" TARGET= "Main" >A Special
                >Thanks</A><br><br>
                >•  <A HREF="Stations_Stems.htm" TARGET= "Main" >Stem
                >& Station Molds</A><br><br>

                The links open in a new window, right? The value of "name" is case
                sensitive. You've named the frame "main" but target "Main". So the
                browser opens a new named window, same as it would if you wrote
                target=Lotta" or target="Joe". Simple as that. :-)

                Lotta
              • woodysnomad
                OH YEAH... The case sensitive problem fixed about everything for now. I will finish updated some other files before proceeding with more new stuff.
                Message 7 of 20 , Feb 27, 2010
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                  OH YEAH... The case sensitive problem fixed about everything for now. I will finish updated some other files before proceeding with more new stuff. THANKS... I still would like to known where I put the <BASE TARGET =<main> to eliminate the need for the TARGET in each of the sections. It would simplify the code.... Off to sleep now...

                  --- In ntb-html@yahoogroups.com, loro <tabbie@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Joe wrote:
                  > > <FRAME NAME= "main" SRC= "F_Opening.htm">
                  > <snip>
                  > >•  <A HREF="F_Opening.htm" TARGET= "Main" >Home
                  > >Page</A><br><br>
                  > >•  <A HREF="F_Thanks.htm" TARGET= "Main" >A Special
                  > >Thanks</A><br><br>
                  > >•  <A HREF="Stations_Stems.htm" TARGET= "Main" >Stem
                  > >& Station Molds</A><br><br>
                  >
                  > The links open in a new window, right? The value of "name" is case
                  > sensitive. You've named the frame "main" but target "Main". So the
                  > browser opens a new named window, same as it would if you wrote
                  > target=Lotta" or target="Joe". Simple as that. :-)
                  >
                  > Lotta
                  >
                • loro
                  ... In HEAD. Of F_NavList.htm . Lotta
                  Message 8 of 20 , Feb 27, 2010
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                    Joe wrote:
                    >I still would like to known where I put the <BASE TARGET =<main> to
                    >eliminate the need for the TARGET in each of the sections.

                    In HEAD. Of F_NavList.htm .

                    Lotta
                  • Greg Chapman
                    Hi Wood, ... I m sure the guys at UK-HBBR ( http://ukhbbr.wordpress.com/ ) would be please to hear from you! ... Yes! Don t! Frames are an extremely last
                    Message 9 of 20 , Feb 28, 2010
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                      Hi Wood,

                      On 28 Feb 10 02:14 "woodysnomad" <jmgledhill@...> said:
                      > I have a web site showing how I am building a cedar stripper canoe.

                      I'm sure the guys at UK-HBBR ( http://ukhbbr.wordpress.com/ ) would be
                      please to hear from you!

                      > I want to convert my site to a frameset format with 2 vertical
                      > frames
                      ...
                      > Any ideas?

                      Yes! Don't!

                      Frames are an extremely last century way of doing things. Search
                      engines don't perform well with frames. Visitors get left without the
                      menu to navigate the site. The site will be a nightmare in any modern
                      tabbed browser.

                      You'd be much better off with a page set in divisions, and styled with
                      CSS using the appropriate tag for your menu, a list.

                      Save the contents of the code between the double lines in an file with
                      an HTML extension and load it in your browser for a demo of what I
                      have in mind. If this approach appeals - It should! - I'm happy to
                      talk you through an explanation of every line of code if it shouldn't
                      make sense to you.

                      ====================================================================
                      <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN"
                      "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd">

                      <html>
                      <head>
                      <meta content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"
                      http-equiv="content-type">

                      <title>Master Page</title>
                      <style type="text/css">
                      body {
                      margin: 0;
                      color: #660000;
                      background-color: #999966;
                      font-family: Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;
                      }
                      #sidebar {
                      float: left;
                      width: 150px;
                      background-color: #cccccc;
                      position: fixed;
                      height: 100%;
                      }
                      #sidebar p {
                      font-weight: bold;
                      text-align: center;
                      }
                      #main {
                      padding-left: 5px;
                      padding-right: 5px;
                      margin-left: 150px;
                      }
                      #vmenu {
                      font-weight: bold;
                      text-align: center;
                      font-size: 0.8em;
                      width: 115px;
                      margin-left: auto;
                      margin-right: auto;
                      }
                      #vmenu ul {
                      margin: 0;
                      padding: 0;
                      line-height: 2em;
                      list-style-type: none;
                      }
                      #vmenu li, #vmenu a:hover {
                      color: white;
                      background-color: #660000;
                      }
                      #vmenu a {
                      color: #660000;
                      background-color: #999966;
                      display: block;
                      text-decoration: none;
                      }
                      #main h1 {
                      margin-bottom: 0em;
                      margin-top: 0em;
                      font-size: 2em;
                      font-family: "Times New Roman",Times,serif;
                      }

                      </style>
                      </head>

                      <body>
                      <div id="sidebar">
                      <p>Menu</p>

                      <div id="vmenu">
                      <ul>
                      <li>HOME</li>

                      <li><a href="#">OPTION 2</a></li>

                      <li><a href="#">OPTION 3</a></li>

                      <li><a href="#">OPTION 4</a></li>
                      </ul>
                      </div>
                      </div>

                      <div id="main">
                      <h1>Page Title</h1>

                      <p>Add more text here or reduce the window size to see the
                      scrollbar appear.</p>

                      <p>Here is the main text. Here is the main text. Here is the main
                      text. Here is the main text. Here is the main text. Here is the main
                      text. Here is the main text. Here is the main text. Here is the main
                      text. Here is the main text.</p>

                      <p>Here is the main text. Here is the main text. Here is the main
                      text. Here is the main text. Here is the main text. Here is the main
                      text.</p>

                      <p>Here is the main text. Here is the main text. Here is the main
                      text. Here is the main text. Here is the main text. Here is the main
                      text. Here is the main text. Here is the main text. Here is the main
                      text. Here is the main text.</p>

                      <p>Here is the main text. Here is the main text. Here is the main
                      text. Here is the main text. Here is the main text. Here is the main
                      text.</p>

                      <p>Here is the main text. Here is the main text. Here is the main
                      text. Here is the main text. Here is the main text. Here is the main
                      text. Here is the main text. Here is the main text. Here is the main
                      text. Here is the main text.</p>

                      <p>Here is the main text. Here is the main text. Here is the main
                      text. Here is the main text. Here is the main text. Here is the main
                      text.</p>

                      <p>Here is the main text. Here is the main text. Here is the main
                      text. Here is the main text. Here is the main text. Here is the main
                      text. Here is the main text. Here is the main text. Here is the main
                      text. Here is the main text.</p>

                      <p>Here is the main text. Here is the main text. Here is the main
                      text. Here is the main text. Here is the main text. Here is the main
                      text.</p>
                      </div>
                      </body>
                      </html>
                      ====================================================================

                      Greg Chapman
                    • jmgledhill
                      Hi, Greg... I ran your code as suggested and it worked fine! That is what I want and I assume that the left side will not scroll where the right side will? I
                      Message 10 of 20 , Feb 28, 2010
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                        Hi, Greg...

                        I ran your code as suggested and it worked fine! That is what I want and I
                        assume that the left side will not scroll where the right side will? I got
                        great help on the frames and it is working well to so why do you feel it is
                        an obsolete technique? Others seem to thing what I have done so far is OK.
                        I am reading up on div but and I do plan on using the li for the menu items
                        later after I get other stuff fixed in css.

                        Now my latest: This css doesn't work... I don't know why and am going
                        nuts... Here is my code and I'm hoping you will look at at and tell me why
                        it won't work.

                        Thanks, Joe


                        <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"
                        "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd">
                        <HTML>
                        <HEAD>
                        <TITLE>CSS Master</TITLE>
                        </HEAD>
                        <LINK REL="StyleSheet" HREF="Style4.css" TYPE="text/css">
                        <BODY>

                        <STYLE>
                        <!--
                        BODY {background-color:#999966;
                        color:#660000;
                        font-family:Tahoma,Sans-serif;
                        font-weight:bold;
                        font-size:95%; }
                        -->
                        </STYLE>

                        <STYLE>
                        <!--
                        a:link {color:#660000; background:transparent; font-weight:bold;
                        font-family:Tahoma,Sans-serif; }
                        a:visited {color:#000000; background:transparent; font-weight:bold;
                        font-family:Tahoma,Sans-serif; }
                        a:active {color:#663333; backround:transparent; font-weight:bold;
                        font-family:Tahoma,Sans-serif; }
                        -->
                        </STYLE>

                        </BODY>
                        </HTML>


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Don - HtmlFixIt.com
                        much nicer if you simply post your page and then give us a link beats long pastes etc. and we can see it in context
                        Message 11 of 20 , Feb 28, 2010
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                          much nicer if you simply post your page and then give us a link
                          beats long pastes etc. and we can see it in context

                          > Now my latest: This css doesn't work... I don't know why and am going
                          > nuts... Here is my code and I'm hoping you will look at at and tell me why
                          > it won't work.
                        • woodysnomad
                          How would I do that? I am working in NoteTab Pro on my computer and the pages have not been forwarded to the comcast server until they are working ones.
                          Message 12 of 20 , Feb 28, 2010
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                            How would I do that? I am working in NoteTab Pro on my computer and the pages have not been forwarded to the comcast server until they are working ones.

                            --- In ntb-html@yahoogroups.com, "Don - HtmlFixIt.com" <don@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > much nicer if you simply post your page and then give us a link
                            > beats long pastes etc. and we can see it in context
                            >
                            > > Now my latest: This css doesn't work... I don't know why and am going
                            > > nuts... Here is my code and I'm hoping you will look at at and tell me why
                            > > it won't work.
                            >
                          • Don - HtmlFixIt.com
                            post the broken page to comcast like create a directory called test or demo and put the broken pages there and then we can trouble shoot them
                            Message 13 of 20 , Feb 28, 2010
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                              post the broken page to comcast like
                              create a directory called "test" or "demo" and put the broken pages
                              there and then we can trouble shoot them

                              On 2/28/2010 10:09 PM, woodysnomad wrote:
                              > How would I do that? I am working in NoteTab Pro on my computer and the pages have not been forwarded to the comcast server until they are working ones.
                            • Greg Chapman
                              Hi Joe, ... So you didn t do what the first paragraph suggested and reduce the size of your window or add more content to the page? :-) ... The specs for HTML
                              Message 14 of 20 , Feb 28, 2010
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                                Hi Joe,

                                On 01 Mar 10 01:31 "jmgledhill" <jmgledhill@...> said:
                                > I ran your code as suggested and it worked fine! That is what I
                                > want and I assume that the left side will not scroll where the right
                                > side will?

                                So you didn't do what the first paragraph suggested and reduce the
                                size of your window or add more content to the page? :-)

                                > I got great help on the frames and it is working well to so why do
                                > you feel it is an obsolete technique?

                                The specs for HTML 4.01 were published in December 1999, so have been
                                around for over ten years. The W3C would have expected all new sites
                                constructed since then to use the STRICT doctype. That specification
                                bans the use of FRAMESET, FRAME and NOFRAME, so you cannot produce a
                                site that uses them and have code that will pass validation.

                                The TRANSITIONAL doctype that you are currently using does allow them,
                                but was only intended to be used for updating an existing site. Ten
                                years on and a complete rebuild of the type you are contemplating
                                should prompt you to use best practice coding techniques.

                                While it's true that most modern browsers are exceedingly forgving in
                                handling invalid and elderly code, so that many people will say "Why
                                bother?", but a further reason for using the best modern pratice is to
                                allow for new technologies that have developed since 1999. These days
                                more many people are using PDAs Smartphones, netbooks, etc, to access
                                the web and some of these devices do not handle old coding techniques,
                                like frames, as well as a browser on a desktop computer.

                                > Others seem to thing what I have done so far is OK.

                                Others have, perhaps, chosen simply to answer your questions rather
                                than open a can of worms by advising on the best approach. Answering a
                                question in the form that you know a questioner will be able to
                                implement is less hassle than challenging their whole approach. Who
                                can blame them for going for the easy life? :-)

                                > I am reading up on div but and I do plan on using the li for the
                                > menu items later after I get other stuff fixed in css.

                                It's good to know that you are reading up on DIVs. I saw that your
                                current site uses a minimal external stylesheet, so I know you know
                                how to implement one. Using <divs> and CSS should prove to be a
                                trivial bit of new learning but with a fundamental impact on the
                                quality of your site building. My demo file used an internal
                                stylesheet, but I would expect you to export it as a separate file
                                when used in your updated site.

                                I am assuming that when you say you are fixing things in CSS you are
                                planning to take the opportunity to remove all those BLOCKQUOTE and BR
                                tags. You seem to use these elements a lot to produce indentation and
                                breaks between paragraphs. I would urge you to use the appropriate <p>
                                tags for your body text and use CSS to add any non-standard margins
                                where you want them (e.g. add a margin in your CSS for <h1> instead of
                                adding a <br>). Use of appropriate tags, can help with search engine
                                rankings.

                                Now that's probably far more than you wanted to handle, but I think
                                will bring your coding quality on in leaps an bounds. :-)

                                OK, one more example snippet of code to add to the stylesheet on that
                                demo file I posted earlier. Change the h1 styling segment to read:

                                #main h1 {
                                margin-bottom: 1em;
                                margin-top: 0em;
                                font-size: 2em;
                                font-family: "Times New Roman",Times,serif;
                                border: 1px solid #cccccc;
                                background-color: #660000;
                                padding-top: 0.25em;
                                color: white;
                                text-align: center;
                                padding-bottom: 0.25em;
                                }

                                There's a lot more there than a bit of bottom margin to replace the
                                <br> tag and CSS centering of the heading rather than the HTML
                                attribute that you are currently using, but with your current method
                                you'd have to go through every page and change the code. With CSS
                                every page alters with just the change to the CSS file.

                                And that definitely is more than enough for you to chew on! :-)

                                Greg
                              • Michael Rawley
                                Hi Joe, Let me add my two penniworth. As has been said, Frames are on their way out. The reason that they still work is that if browsers no longer react to
                                Message 15 of 20 , Mar 1, 2010
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                                  Hi Joe,

                                  Let me add my two penniworth. As has been said, Frames are on their way
                                  out. The reason that they still work is that if browsers no longer react
                                  to them, too many webmasters are going to have to burn the the midnight oil.

                                  At the same time you can't get too up-to-date because browsers have not
                                  caught up to the latest standards, apart from which some people still
                                  use out-of-date browsers.

                                  In my web writing tutorial, I have tried to keep to the latest standards
                                  that on the whole work in most browsers. Having said that, we are due to
                                  get a new standard during this year!

                                  Regards,

                                  Michael,
                                  www.normist.co.uk
                                • Greg Chapman
                                  Hi Michael, ... Even more reason for recommending that any new project should be done to a HTML4.01 STRICT doctype then! (i.e. No Frames!) Once browsers have
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Mar 1, 2010
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                                    Hi Michael,

                                    On 01 Mar 10 09:14 Michael Rawley <rawley@...> said:

                                    > we are due to get a new standard during this year!

                                    Even more reason for recommending that any new project should be done
                                    to a HTML4.01 STRICT doctype then! (i.e. No Frames!)

                                    Once browsers have caught up to handle it, the job of updating to th
                                    new standard will be so much easier. No point in setting yourself up
                                    for another complete re-build in a couple of years time.

                                    (My understanding is that HTML5 will not require a major rebuild of
                                    existing 4.01 STRICT code. It will just add a few bells and whistles
                                    to make some popular features easy to implement, e.g. rounded corners
                                    will no longer require a host of miniature graphics to implement.)

                                    Greg Chapman
                                    http://www.gregtutor.plus.com
                                    Helping new users of KompoZer and The GIMP
                                  • Axel Berger
                                    ... Not quite. and are alowed neither in strict nor in transitional but only in frameset. I do not use strict myself, because I insist on
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Mar 1, 2010
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                                      Greg Chapman wrote:
                                      > Even more reason for recommending that any new project should be done
                                      > to a HTML4.01 STRICT doctype then! (i.e. No Frames!)

                                      Not quite. <FRAME> and <FRAMESET> are alowed neither in strict nor in
                                      transitional but only in frameset. I do not use strict myself, because I
                                      insist on being able to use tags like <CENTER> and attributes like ALIGN
                                      for a little minimal styling in browsers without CSS support - I test my
                                      pages in Netscape 4.8. But apart from that I adhere to the strict rules
                                      even if not binding myself to them.

                                      Apart from that I wholeheartedly agree about frames. The resize exremely
                                      badly with the window size and they make it impossible to bookmark
                                      relevant pages, both hurting the visitor very much. Even if not using
                                      SSI, Notetab makes it extremely easy to do the same change in a whole
                                      bunch of pages in one go, thus invalidating the main reason for them.

                                      Axel
                                    • Marcelo Bastos
                                      Tidy is a great tool and I use it a lot. Unfortunately, the official version is still stuck in HTML 4/XHTML, so attempting to use HTML5 elements causes a lot
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Aug 5, 2012
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                                        Tidy is a great tool and I use it a lot. Unfortunately, the official
                                        version is still stuck in HTML 4/XHTML, so attempting to use HTML5
                                        elements causes a lot of noise in the error log.

                                        But of course, being free software, somebody is taking care of this
                                        problem. An experimental fork of Tidy is being developed here:

                                        http://w3c.github.com/tidy-html5/

                                        A Windows build (dated from April, so not the latest cutting-edge thing,
                                        but probably acceptable) can be found here:

                                        http://www.broerse.net/wordpress/2012/04/28/tidy-html5/

                                        It's supposedly not production quality software, but it might be useful
                                        anyway.

                                        --
                                        MCBastos

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                                      • Adrien Verlee
                                        ... That webpage seems to be a security risk, it is blocked by Microsoft Security Essentials -- Adrien
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Aug 5, 2012
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                                          Op 5/08/2012 20:35, Marcelo Bastos schreef:

                                          > http://www.broerse.net/wordpress/2012/04/28/tidy-html5/
                                          >

                                          That webpage seems to be a security risk, it is blocked by Microsoft
                                          Security Essentials

                                          --
                                          Adrien
                                        • Marcelo Bastos
                                          ... You re right, I checked and Google Safe Browsing gives a warning too, but the full diagnostic page is a bit ambivalent about it:
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Aug 5, 2012
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                                            Interviewed by CNN on 05/08/2012 15:51, Adrien Verlee told the world:
                                            > Op 5/08/2012 20:35, Marcelo Bastos schreef:
                                            >
                                            >> http://www.broerse.net/wordpress/2012/04/28/tidy-html5/
                                            >>
                                            > That webpage seems to be a security risk, it is blocked by Microsoft
                                            > Security Essentials

                                            You're right, I checked and Google Safe Browsing gives a warning too,
                                            but the full diagnostic page is a bit ambivalent about it:

                                            <http://www.google.com/safebrowsing/diagnostic?site=http://www.broerse.net/wordpress/2012/04/28/tidy-html5/&hl=en>

                                            I didn't notice any problems, but then, I have NoScript blocking most
                                            scripts... Avast didn't complain either. I think they got hacked at some
                                            point in the past and some script was trying to install malware. Perhaps
                                            it's fixed now and the site just wasn't cleared from the blacklists
                                            yet. It's probably a bad idea to visit it with vanilla Internet
                                            Explorer, particularly older version, anyway.

                                            But the Tidy binary itself seems to be OK; I uploaded it to Virustotal
                                            and it got a totally clean bill of health -- 0 alerts from 40 antivirus
                                            products.

                                            --
                                            MCBastos

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