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Re: [NH] centering image for all monitors

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  • Edward
    ... From: Axel Berger To: Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 4:32 AM Subject: Re: [NH] centering image for
    Message 1 of 20 , Jan 8, 2009
    • 0 Attachment
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Axel Berger" <Axel-Berger@...>
      To: <ntb-html@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 4:32 AM
      Subject: Re: [NH] centering image for all monitors


      Alex wrote:

      > Sorry for being a nasty unhelpful soandso again, but your code does
      > not even validate and is full of mistakes. Validating tools exist
      > and trying to make anything surrounded by unvalid code do something
      > specific, be it sing, dance, or centre, is a mug's game.
      >
      > Apart from errors and typos like missing quotes there is one big
      > mistage: You let the user load down a huge image over his slow and
      > expensive connection and then use the browser's (any browser's) very
      > basic and substandard mechanism to scale it down. Always scale
      > images to the desired size first and insert them at exactly that
      > size.
      >
      > Axel
      and he also wrote:
      One shouldn't use *any* fixed size for fonts. It is up to the user to
      set up his browser to suit his monitor and eyesight and up to us to
      respect these choices. This means the basic font size for normal text
      should never be messed with and all other sizes, big, headlines, and the
      "small print", ought to be expressed in units of em. Many sites are done
      so badly that the only sensible choice is turning off the rendering of
      CSS completely. Is this what we want to force our readers (and sometimes
      voters and customers) into having to do?

      Alex,
      Of course you are correct and I will endeavor to make the necessary changes
      as time marches on. I really appreciate you help. I think letting the
      viewer be the master of the fonts is a great idea. Would you give me a web
      page site of yours so I can view the source and see exactly how you did
      this. I can read about it all day on W3C and never really fully understand
      what they are saying. Seeing the code on a page is very helpful and changing
      the fonts to the ones that I like would be great. Once again let me say
      thank you for replying to my questions. I really do appreciate all the
      critiques, I always find them very useful and the people on this yahoo group
      are always so good to pitch in and help.

      I will check the images, I thought I had photoshopped them down to a small
      resolution. Very sorry about that. I will do make the resolution smaller as
      time permits and before I put the pages up on a hosting site.
      Ed B
    • Don - HtmlFixIt.com
      Message 2 of 20 , Jan 8, 2009
      • 0 Attachment
        <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"
        "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd">
        <html lang="en">
        <head>
        <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
        <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
        <title>Saltillo Home Page</title>
        <style type="text/css" media="screen">
        body
        {
        margin: 0;
        padding: 0;
        font-size: 90%;
        font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif;
        color: blue;
        }

        #gutter
        {
        float: left;
        width: 3%;
        height: 1px;
        }

        #col1
        {
        float: left;
        width: 800px;
        background-color: #fff;
        margin-bottom: 10px;
        margin-left: 3%;
        text-align: center;
        }

        #col2
        {
        float: left;
        width: 170px;
        background-color: #fff;
        margin-bottom: 10px;
        }

        #col3
        {
        float: left;
        width: 170px;
        margin-left: 3%;
        background-color: #fff;
        margin-bottom: 10px;
        }

        #footer
        {
        clear: both;
        height: 50px;
        background-color: #fff;
        }

        h1
        {
        margin: 0;
        padding: 5px;
        text-align: center;
        color: blue;
        }

        h2
        {
        margin-top: 0;
        padding-top: 7px;
        text-align: center
        font-size: 25pt
        color: blue;
        }

        h2, p
        {
        margin-left: 7px;
        margin-right: 7px;
        color: blue;
        }
        h3 {text-align: center
        font-size: 20pt
        color: blue;
        }

        h4 {
        onload='javascript:write_date()'
        }

        a:link {
        text-decoration: none;
        color: navy;
        }
        a:visited {
        text-decoration: none;
        color: navy;
        }
        a:active {
        text-decoration: none;
        color: navy;
        }
        a:hover {color: red;
        text-decoration: bold;
        }
        </style>
        </head>


        <body>
        <div id="gutter"></div>
        <div id="col2">
        <p><img
        src="http://home.comcast.net/~ebrown1927/Weatherford/images/elite1a.jpg"
        width="144" height="157" border="0" alt="elite physical therapy logo" /></p>
        <p>
        <a href="home.html">Home</a><br>
        <a href="dir.html">Directions</a><br>
        <a href="water_aerobics.html">Water Aerobics</a><br>
        <a href="aquatic_therapy.html">Water Therapy</a><br>
        <a href="contact.html">Contact Us</a><br>
        <a href="about.html">About Us</a><br>
        <a href="gallery.html">Our Picture Gallery</a>
        </p>
        </div>

        <div id="col1">
        <h1>Saltillo</h1>
        <h2>Elite Physical Therapy and Aquatic Center</h2>
        <p><img
        src="http://home.comcast.net/~ebrown1927/Weatherford/images/bldg1b.jpg"
        width="360" height="187" border="0" alt="physical therapy building" /></p>
        <h3>"Meeting all of your Physical Therapy<br>and Rehabilitation Needs"</h3>


        </div>

        <div id="col3">
        <img
        src="http://home.comcast.net/~ebrown1927/Weatherford/images/elite1a.jpg"
        width="144" height="157" border="0" alt="elite physical therapy
        logo"></div>


        <div id="footer"><!-- currently empty footer --></div>
        </body>
        </html>


        Edward wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: "Axel Berger" <Axel-Berger@...>
        > To: <ntb-html@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 4:32 AM
        > Subject: Re: [NH] centering image for all monitors
        >
        >
        > Alex wrote:
        >
        >> Sorry for being a nasty unhelpful soandso again, but your code does
        >> not even validate and is full of mistakes. Validating tools exist
        >> and trying to make anything surrounded by unvalid code do something
        >> specific, be it sing, dance, or centre, is a mug's game.
        >>
        >> Apart from errors and typos like missing quotes there is one big
        >> mistage: You let the user load down a huge image over his slow and
        >> expensive connection and then use the browser's (any browser's) very
        >> basic and substandard mechanism to scale it down. Always scale
        >> images to the desired size first and insert them at exactly that
        >> size.
        >>
        >> Axel
        > and he also wrote:
        > One shouldn't use *any* fixed size for fonts. It is up to the user to
        > set up his browser to suit his monitor and eyesight and up to us to
        > respect these choices. This means the basic font size for normal text
        > should never be messed with and all other sizes, big, headlines, and the
        > "small print", ought to be expressed in units of em. Many sites are done
        > so badly that the only sensible choice is turning off the rendering of
        > CSS completely. Is this what we want to force our readers (and sometimes
        > voters and customers) into having to do?
        >
        > Alex,
        > Of course you are correct and I will endeavor to make the necessary changes
        > as time marches on. I really appreciate you help. I think letting the
        > viewer be the master of the fonts is a great idea. Would you give me a web
        > page site of yours so I can view the source and see exactly how you did
        > this. I can read about it all day on W3C and never really fully understand
        > what they are saying. Seeing the code on a page is very helpful and changing
        > the fonts to the ones that I like would be great. Once again let me say
        > thank you for replying to my questions. I really do appreciate all the
        > critiques, I always find them very useful and the people on this yahoo group
        > are always so good to pitch in and help.
        >
        > I will check the images, I thought I had photoshopped them down to a small
        > resolution. Very sorry about that. I will do make the resolution smaller as
        > time permits and before I put the pages up on a hosting site.
        > Ed B
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Fookes Software: http://www.fookes.com/
        > NoteTab website: http://www.notetab.com/
        > NoteTab Discussion Lists: http://www.notetab.com/groups.php
        >
        > ***
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • Greg Chapman
        Hi, ... I understand that no modern browser actually renders true XHTML and simply converts the code to HTML and renders that. In consequence, there is little
        Message 3 of 20 , Jan 8, 2009
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          Hi,

          On 08 Jan 09 19:14 MotoMania <motomania@...> said:
          > Glad that got things started. I try to stay W3C XHTML 1.1 and CSS
          > standard with any sites that I create or update.

          I understand that no modern browser actually renders true XHTML and
          simply converts the code to HTML and renders that. In consequence,
          there is little point in writing XHTML markup for web sites. These
          days XHTML is seen as a (rare?) blind alley up which the W3C
          travelled. Indeed, I believe there is now an W3C HTML v5 working group
          to update HTML for the modern environment.

          I confess that I have never bothered to check out these tales (from
          people I respect) which I read on other forums, but the snippets I do
          read elsewhere suggest that their remarks are true.

          These days my own sites use HTML4 STRICT (which obliges use of CSS).
          It certainly handles the vast majority of hassles I used to get with
          some browsers.

          Greg
        • Axel Berger
          ... A good choice. A few words about why I have chosen differently. For myself I absolutely see no point whatsoever in updating working and well set-up
          Message 4 of 20 , Jan 8, 2009
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            Greg Chapman wrote:
            > These days my own sites use HTML4 STRICT

            A good choice. A few words about why I have chosen differently. For
            myself I absolutely see no point whatsoever in updating working and
            well set-up software (and hardware for that matter) every five
            minutes unless it brings genuine new capabilities that I consider
            worth it. So I've made absolute backwards compatibility my second
            priority, right after validity. Unless a main part of my content
            can't be shown in an old version in principle, like images and video
            in a pure text browser, I want to make it as good as possible for
            even the oldest and most basic browsers there were and I still check
            everything in Netscape 4.8.
            Now, when there is no CSS capability, a few ALIGN="" tags and such
            can make a lot of difference. If they and CSS are both present and
            in conflict, then CSS takes precedence, so they won't hurt. For that
            I need to stick to TRANSITIONAL, but I try to go beyond strict only
            sparingly.

            Axel
          • Edward
            This does not work on my monitor. The right logo is under the left logo.The picture and statements are to far to the right. ed Blessed are they who can laugh
            Message 5 of 20 , Jan 8, 2009
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              This does not work on my monitor. The right logo is under the left logo.The
              picture and statements are to far to the right.
              ed

              Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves
              for they shall never cease to be amused.
              -- Unknown

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Don - HtmlFixIt.com" <don@...>
              To: <ntb-html@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 2:36 PM
              Subject: Re: [NH] centering image for all monitors


              > <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"
              > "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd">
              > <html lang="en">
              > <head>
              > <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
              > <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
              > <title>Saltillo Home Page</title>
              > <style type="text/css" media="screen">
              > body
              > {
              > margin: 0;
              > padding: 0;
              > font-size: 90%;
              > font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif;
              > color: blue;
              > }
              >
              > #gutter
              > {
              > float: left;
              > width: 3%;
              > height: 1px;
              > }
              >
              > #col1
              > {
              > float: left;
              > width: 800px;
              > background-color: #fff;
              > margin-bottom: 10px;
              > margin-left: 3%;
              > text-align: center;
              > }
              >
              > #col2
              > {
              > float: left;
              > width: 170px;
              > background-color: #fff;
              > margin-bottom: 10px;
              > }
              >
              > #col3
              > {
              > float: left;
              > width: 170px;
              > margin-left: 3%;
              > background-color: #fff;
              > margin-bottom: 10px;
              > }
              >
              > #footer
              > {
              > clear: both;
              > height: 50px;
              > background-color: #fff;
              > }
              >
              > h1
              > {
              > margin: 0;
              > padding: 5px;
              > text-align: center;
              > color: blue;
              > }
              >
              > h2
              > {
              > margin-top: 0;
              > padding-top: 7px;
              > text-align: center
              > font-size: 25pt
              > color: blue;
              > }
              >
              > h2, p
              > {
              > margin-left: 7px;
              > margin-right: 7px;
              > color: blue;
              > }
              > h3 {text-align: center
              > font-size: 20pt
              > color: blue;
              > }
              >
              > h4 {
              > onload='javascript:write_date()'
              > }
              >
              > a:link {
              > text-decoration: none;
              > color: navy;
              > }
              > a:visited {
              > text-decoration: none;
              > color: navy;
              > }
              > a:active {
              > text-decoration: none;
              > color: navy;
              > }
              > a:hover {color: red;
              > text-decoration: bold;
              > }
              > </style>
              > </head>
              >
              >
              > <body>
              > <div id="gutter"></div>
              > <div id="col2">
              > <p><img
              > src="http://home.comcast.net/~ebrown1927/Weatherford/images/elite1a.jpg"
              > width="144" height="157" border="0" alt="elite physical therapy logo"
              > /></p>
              > <p>
              > <a href="home.html">Home</a><br>
              > <a href="dir.html">Directions</a><br>
              > <a href="water_aerobics.html">Water Aerobics</a><br>
              > <a href="aquatic_therapy.html">Water Therapy</a><br>
              > <a href="contact.html">Contact Us</a><br>
              > <a href="about.html">About Us</a><br>
              > <a href="gallery.html">Our Picture Gallery</a>
              > </p>
              > </div>
              >
              > <div id="col1">
              > <h1>Saltillo</h1>
              > <h2>Elite Physical Therapy and Aquatic Center</h2>
              > <p><img
              > src="http://home.comcast.net/~ebrown1927/Weatherford/images/bldg1b.jpg"
              > width="360" height="187" border="0" alt="physical therapy building" /></p>
              > <h3>"Meeting all of your Physical Therapy<br>and Rehabilitation
              > Needs"</h3>
              >
              >
              > </div>
              >
              > <div id="col3">
              > <img
              > src="http://home.comcast.net/~ebrown1927/Weatherford/images/elite1a.jpg"
              > width="144" height="157" border="0" alt="elite physical therapy
              > logo"></div>
              >
              >
              > <div id="footer"><!-- currently empty footer --></div>
              > </body>
              > </html>
              >
              >
              > Edward wrote:
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> ----- Original Message -----
              >> From: "Axel Berger" <Axel-Berger@...>
              >> To: <ntb-html@yahoogroups.com>
              >> Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 4:32 AM
              >> Subject: Re: [NH] centering image for all monitors
              >>
              >>
              >> Alex wrote:
              >>
              >>> Sorry for being a nasty unhelpful soandso again, but your code does
              >>> not even validate and is full of mistakes. Validating tools exist
              >>> and trying to make anything surrounded by unvalid code do something
              >>> specific, be it sing, dance, or centre, is a mug's game.
              >>>
              >>> Apart from errors and typos like missing quotes there is one big
              >>> mistage: You let the user load down a huge image over his slow and
              >>> expensive connection and then use the browser's (any browser's) very
              >>> basic and substandard mechanism to scale it down. Always scale
              >>> images to the desired size first and insert them at exactly that
              >>> size.
              >>>
              >>> Axel
              >> and he also wrote:
              >> One shouldn't use *any* fixed size for fonts. It is up to the user to
              >> set up his browser to suit his monitor and eyesight and up to us to
              >> respect these choices. This means the basic font size for normal text
              >> should never be messed with and all other sizes, big, headlines, and the
              >> "small print", ought to be expressed in units of em. Many sites are done
              >> so badly that the only sensible choice is turning off the rendering of
              >> CSS completely. Is this what we want to force our readers (and sometimes
              >> voters and customers) into having to do?
              >>
              >> Alex,
              >> Of course you are correct and I will endeavor to make the necessary
              >> changes
              >> as time marches on. I really appreciate you help. I think letting the
              >> viewer be the master of the fonts is a great idea. Would you give me a
              >> web
              >> page site of yours so I can view the source and see exactly how you did
              >> this. I can read about it all day on W3C and never really fully
              >> understand
              >> what they are saying. Seeing the code on a page is very helpful and
              >> changing
              >> the fonts to the ones that I like would be great. Once again let me say
              >> thank you for replying to my questions. I really do appreciate all the
              >> critiques, I always find them very useful and the people on this yahoo
              >> group
              >> are always so good to pitch in and help.
              >>
              >> I will check the images, I thought I had photoshopped them down to a
              >> small
              >> resolution. Very sorry about that. I will do make the resolution smaller
              >> as
              >> time permits and before I put the pages up on a hosting site.
              >> Ed B
              >>
              >>
              >> ------------------------------------
              >>
              >> Fookes Software: http://www.fookes.com/
              >> NoteTab website: http://www.notetab.com/
              >> NoteTab Discussion Lists: http://www.notetab.com/groups.php
              >>
              >> ***
              >> Yahoo! Groups Links
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Fookes Software: http://www.fookes.com/
              > NoteTab website: http://www.notetab.com/
              > NoteTab Discussion Lists: http://www.notetab.com/groups.php
              >
              > ***
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
            • Axel Berger
              ... There are two: http://axel.berger-odenthal.de/ http://fdp-odenthal.de/pages/Technik.shtml The first is my own and as primitive and basic as it gets. The
              Message 6 of 20 , Jan 8, 2009
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                Edward wrote:
                > Would you give me a web page site of yours

                There are two:
                http://axel.berger-odenthal.de/
                http://fdp-odenthal.de/pages/Technik.shtml

                The first is my own and as primitive and basic as it gets. The
                second is done for the local party and the page with the technical
                details is in English (as technical documentation ought to be IMHO).
                You'll notice I disregarded my own rule about font size and set it
                at 75% of the browser default (but using a relative size it can
                still be scaled). That's because the visual design is a faithful
                copy and ripoff of other party designs, though the code is mine,
                clean and validating.

                The technical sample is seriously out of date by now, but the main
                parts not changed.

                Axel
              • Cary
                Basically, all modern, major browsers handle true xhtml, that is xhtml served as xhtml rather than html, except IE which will ask you to save the page as a
                Message 7 of 20 , Jan 8, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  Basically, all modern, major browsers handle true xhtml, that is xhtml
                  served as xhtml rather than html, except IE which will ask you to save
                  the page as a file.

                  Obviously, sites configured for access by the general public are set
                  up to serve pages as html so IE won't choke. Xhtml 1.0 is fine for
                  this purpose, but xhtml 1.1 should only be used if it is in fact going
                  to be served as xhtml.


                  --- In ntb-html@yahoogroups.com, Greg Chapman wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi,
                  >
                  > On 08 Jan 09 19:14 MotoMania said:
                  > > Glad that got things started. I try to stay W3C XHTML 1.1 and CSS
                  > > standard with any sites that I create or update.
                  >
                  > I understand that no modern browser actually renders true XHTML and
                  > simply converts the code to HTML and renders that. In consequence,
                  > there is little point in writing XHTML markup for web sites. These
                  > days XHTML is seen as a (rare?) blind alley up which the W3C
                  > travelled. Indeed, I believe there is now an W3C HTML v5 working group
                  > to update HTML for the modern environment.
                  >
                  > I confess that I have never bothered to check out these tales (from
                  > people I respect) which I read on other forums, but the snippets I do
                  > read elsewhere suggest that their remarks are true.
                  >
                  > These days my own sites use HTML4 STRICT (which obliges use of CSS).
                  > It certainly handles the vast majority of hassles I used to get with
                  > some browsers.
                  >
                  > Greg
                  >
                • Cary
                  Looking at the current page, the link styling should be changed so hover comes before active. a:link {text-decoration: none; color: navy;} a:visited
                  Message 8 of 20 , Jan 8, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Looking at the current page, the link styling should be changed so
                    hover comes before active.

                    a:link {text-decoration: none; color: navy;}
                    a:visited {text-decoration: none; color: navy;}
                    a:hover {color: red; text-decoration: bold}
                    a:active {text-decoration: none; color: navy;}
                    a.other:link {color: #99FFFF; text-decoration: none}
                    a.other:visited {color: #99FFFF; text-decoration: none}
                    a.other:hover {color: pink; text-decoration: bold}
                    a.other:active {color: red; text-decoration: none}


                    --- In ntb-html@yahoogroups.com, "Edward" wrote:
                    >
                    > I am having trouble getting an image to center after putting a table
                    with the links ot other pages on the left side of the page...
                  • loro
                    ... Exactly my opinion. With reservations for what Cary already said, that XHTML is treated as XML if it s served with an XHTML content-type. But it can t be,
                    Message 9 of 20 , Jan 8, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Greg Chapman wrote:
                      >I understand that no modern browser actually renders true XHTML and
                      >simply converts the code to HTML and renders that. In consequence,
                      >there is little point in writing XHTML markup for web sites.

                      Exactly my opinion. With reservations for what Cary already said,
                      that XHTML is treated as XML if it's served with an XHTML
                      content-type. But it can't be, partly because of IE and partly
                      because many (most?) XHTML pages wouldn't display in any browser if
                      they were served with the correct content-type.

                      XML has few requirements, but one of them is that a page that isn't
                      well-formed shouldn't be displayed by the browser. All browsers
                      conform to this. Since many XHTML pages aren't as well-written as
                      their authors think when they plaster that XHTML button on, there
                      would be a lot of blank pages on the web and most authors would
                      quickly revert to HTML and the blessings of the error handling HTML
                      parsers are so richly equipped with.

                      This requirement makes me think XML isn't really suited to be used on
                      this side of the server. Generated on the server, validated and
                      foolproofed on the server, maybe. But how often does that happen? Can
                      you imagine a site of any importance to its users or to the owner
                      that goes blank until someone has found the tiny little error that
                      maybe originates deep down in some server side program?

                      Strict instead of Transitional is much more important. The fact that
                      there even exists a Transitional version of XHTML and that it's
                      widely used say everything about what the XHTML hype is about. I
                      think the expression is "blowing smoke". ;-)

                      Lotta
                    • Axel Berger
                      ... I would consider that as a huge advantage over current affairs. Now there is all kinds of junk all over the place and if it isn t displayed, people blame
                      Message 10 of 20 , Jan 9, 2009
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                        loro wrote:
                        > there would be a lot of blank pages on the web and most
                        > authors would quickly revert to HTML and the blessings
                        > of the error handling HTML parsers are so richly equipped
                        > with.

                        I would consider that as a huge advantage over current affairs. Now
                        there is all kinds of junk all over the place and if it isn't
                        displayed, people blame their browser. More importantly and worse,
                        if you go and complain to the junk merchants, they have the gall to
                        tell you everyone else was satisfied and that it must be your fault.
                        And of course, if all browsers gave error messages instead of
                        guessed at approximate renderings our life would be easier and we'd
                        not need to employ all those extra validating tools and would not
                        get caught out by those easily overlooked little mistakes, that
                        happen not to show up when trying things out in the few browsers and
                        versions we happen to have at our disposal.

                        Life would become harder for all thise idiots out there refusing to
                        take care and not trying to do a good rather than botched job, but I
                        don't see how that would be bad.

                        Axel
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