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Re: [NH] centering image for all monitors

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  • MotoMania
    Howdy Ed, I took a quick look at your source code and you were trying to solve the layout using tables inside of tables. As you discovered, nesting tables can
    Message 1 of 20 , Jan 7, 2009
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      Howdy Ed,

      I took a quick look at your source code and you were trying to solve the
      layout using tables inside of tables. As you discovered, nesting tables
      can quickly make it very difficult to figure out what is where without
      using different color borders for different tables or cells.

      I redid your layout using a single table that has 3 rows with 3 columns.
      Like sisterscape, I prefer using div's for layout purposes but tables
      have been used for years. Feel free to take a look the source code, I
      put in a few comments to try to help explain a few things. The bottom
      row of three columns were merged, mainly just to show that you can do
      that like if want to use it as a footer that stretches across the width
      of table as one area.

      Of course, you can change the table width to a set size in pixels, If
      wanted but that will keep the table from being "liquid".

      Here's that page I put together. Hope it helps a bit.

      http://www.mickhousel.com/edbrown/edbrown.html

      Mick

      Edward wrote:
      > I am having trouble getting an image to center after putting a table
      > with the links ot other pages on the left side of the page. I have
      > managed on my computer to center the statement beneath the image. You
      > can see what I have on the web at this address:
      > http://home.comcast.net/~ebrown1927/Weatherford/home.html
      > <http://home.comcast.net/~ebrown1927/Weatherford/home.html> The picture
      > and the statement was centered until I put the links on the left side,
      > that is where the owner wants the links, and then both the picture and
      > statement moved to the right. I have the statement now centered on my
      > computer but not on the web yet. But I have not been able to get the
      > picture to move left any amount, except it will move all the way over
      > next to the links. I want them centered below the top or opening
      > statement which is the title of the home page. When I try to use
      > absolute postioning the postion appears to change with monitor size. I
      > must not be doing something right.
      >
      > Ed Brown
    • Axel Berger
      ... Sorry for being a nasty unhelpful soandso again, but your code does not even validate and is full of mistakes. Validating tools exist and trying to make
      Message 2 of 20 , Jan 8, 2009
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        Edward wrote:
        > I am having trouble

        Sorry for being a nasty unhelpful soandso again, but your code does
        not even validate and is full of mistakes. Validating tools exist
        and trying to make anything surrounded by unvalid code do something
        specific, be it sing, dance, or centre, is a mug's game.

        Apart from errors and typos like missing quotes there is one big
        mistage: You let the user load down a huge image over his slow and
        expensive connection and then use the browser's (any browser's) very
        basic and substandard mechanism to scale it down. Always scale
        images to the desired size first and insert them at exactly that
        size.

        Axel
      • loro
        ... Just remove the table around that H3. You already have the below rule in your style sheet. That s all you need with the table gone. h3 {text-align: center;
        Message 3 of 20 , Jan 8, 2009
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          Edward wrote:
          >I am having trouble getting an image to center after putting a table
          >with the links ot other pages on the left side of the page. I have
          >managed on my computer to center the statement beneath the
          >image. You can see what I have on the web at this address:
          >http://home.comcast.net/~ebrown1927/Weatherford/home.html

          Just remove the table around that H3. You already have the below rule
          in your style sheet. That's all you need with the table gone.

          h3 {text-align: center; font-size: 20pt; color: blue;}

          If you want another font-size for this H3, you could use a class. But
          you shouldn't use pt as the unit. That's for print.

          Good luck! :-)
          Lotta
        • Axel Berger
          ... One shouldn t use *any* fixed size for fonts. It is up to the user to set up his browser to suit his monitor and eyesight and up to us to respect these
          Message 4 of 20 , Jan 8, 2009
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            loro wrote:
            > But you shouldn't use pt as the unit. That's for print.

            One shouldn't use *any* fixed size for fonts. It is up to the user to
            set up his browser to suit his monitor and eyesight and up to us to
            respect these choices. This means the basic font size for normal text
            should never be messed with and all other sizes, big, headlines, and the
            "small print", ought to be expressed in units of em. Many sites are done
            so badly that the only sensible choice is turning off the rendering of
            CSS completely. Is this what we want to force our readers (and sometimes
            voters and customers) into having to do?

            Axel
          • Edward
            Thanks everyone, great answers, and I will be changing the site to more modern techniques of page writing soon. Main thing now is to get a decent looking page
            Message 5 of 20 , Jan 8, 2009
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              Thanks everyone, great answers, and I will be changing the site to more modern techniques of page writing soon. Main thing now is to get a decent looking page up with what I know and have used as I work it up to xhtml, whch I was using before I stopped authoring web pages. I will be working on it the rest of the day. So in a couple of hours you can view it and see the changes. When I get stumped again, I will be back with more stupid questions. While I was in the Navy I was an instructor in basic electricity and electronics. One of the first statements I made to the class is that there is no such thing as a stupid question.

              I like to use signatures so a year or two ago one of my sigs said "There is no such thing as a stupid question, but they are the easiest to answer" I made that up myself remembering my days in the classroom and was using it when I wrote to the techsupportguy forums for help. Now you can see it permanently on their website, because you and I know that there are stupid questions. lol. Again many thanks and no doubt I will be back. thanks to each one of you. I printed your replies and now I am off to work.
              Ed

              Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves
              for they shall never cease to be amused.
              -- Unknown


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Edward
              Mick I have purloined you page for the present. Looks like what the boss wants. I will be making changes as I go, but I may stay with your tables until I get
              Message 6 of 20 , Jan 8, 2009
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                Mick
                I have purloined you page for the present. Looks like what the boss wants.
                I will be making changes as I go, but I may stay with your tables until I
                get to working with divs. I have used tables within tables and in fact just
                about every you that you can use tables but I quit making pages several
                years ago and not only lost out on keeping up with the changes, but at 80+
                years my brain has lost some of its abilities but it still does pretty good.
                Thanks for your help. I will be working with divs. May have to go find the
                latest cightml book.
                Ed

                Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves
                for they shall never cease to be amused.
                -- Unknown

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "MotoMania" <motomania@...>
                To: <ntb-html@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 12:15 AM
                Subject: Re: [NH] centering image for all monitors


                > Howdy Ed,
                >
                > I took a quick look at your source code and you were trying to solve the
                > layout using tables inside of tables. As you discovered, nesting tables
                > can quickly make it very difficult to figure out what is where without
                > using different color borders for different tables or cells.
                >
                > I redid your layout using a single table that has 3 rows with 3 columns.
                > Like sisterscape, I prefer using div's for layout purposes but tables
                > have been used for years. Feel free to take a look the source code, I
                > put in a few comments to try to help explain a few things. The bottom
                > row of three columns were merged, mainly just to show that you can do
                > that like if want to use it as a footer that stretches across the width
                > of table as one area.
                >
                > Of course, you can change the table width to a set size in pixels, If
                > wanted but that will keep the table from being "liquid".
                >
                > Here's that page I put together. Hope it helps a bit.
                >
                > http://www.mickhousel.com/edbrown/edbrown.html
                >
                > Mick
                >
                > Edward wrote:
                >> I am having trouble getting an image to center after putting a table
                >> with the links ot other pages on the left side of the page. I have
                >> managed on my computer to center the statement beneath the image. You
                >> can see what I have on the web at this address:
                >> http://home.comcast.net/~ebrown1927/Weatherford/home.html
                >> <http://home.comcast.net/~ebrown1927/Weatherford/home.html> The picture
                >> and the statement was centered until I put the links on the left side,
                >> that is where the owner wants the links, and then both the picture and
                >> statement moved to the right. I have the statement now centered on my
                >> computer but not on the web yet. But I have not been able to get the
                >> picture to move left any amount, except it will move all the way over
                >> next to the links. I want them centered below the top or opening
                >> statement which is the title of the home page. When I try to use
                >> absolute postioning the postion appears to change with monitor size. I
                >> must not be doing something right.
                >>
                >> Ed Brown
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Fookes Software: http://www.fookes.com/
                > NoteTab website: http://www.notetab.com/
                > NoteTab Discussion Lists: http://www.notetab.com/groups.php
                >
                > ***
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
              • MotoMania
                Sorry if I came across as preaching about nesting tables but it s an easy way to get lost in layouts. Glad that got things started. I try to stay W3C XHTML 1.1
                Message 7 of 20 , Jan 8, 2009
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                  Sorry if I came across as preaching about nesting tables but it's an
                  easy way to get lost in layouts.

                  Glad that got things started. I try to stay W3C XHTML 1.1 and CSS
                  standard with any sites that I create or update. Once you get your head
                  around working with div's for layout, you create some interesting stuff.

                  Good on ya for keeping your brain occupied and being creative. I use PHP
                  quite a bit in websites. Building modules like menus, footers, etc.
                  using various variables such as userlevels, etc. and then just include
                  the correct menu/file/etc. I love the fact that I can edit one line in
                  one file that is used in hundreds/thousands of pages instead of editing
                  hundreds/thousands of pages for a one line change. Even with the great
                  search and replace functionality of NTB, it's just much simpler to do a
                  quick edit and be done.

                  Mick

                  Edward wrote:
                  > Mick
                  > I have purloined you page for the present. Looks like what the boss wants.
                  > I will be making changes as I go, but I may stay with your tables until I
                  > get to working with divs. I have used tables within tables and in fact just
                  > about every you that you can use tables but I quit making pages several
                  > years ago and not only lost out on keeping up with the changes, but at 80+
                  > years my brain has lost some of its abilities but it still does pretty
                  > good.
                  > Thanks for your help. I will be working with divs. May have to go find the
                  > latest cightml book.
                  > Ed
                  >
                  > Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves
                  > for they shall never cease to be amused.
                  > -- Unknown
                • Edward
                  ... From: Axel Berger To: Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 4:32 AM Subject: Re: [NH] centering image for
                  Message 8 of 20 , Jan 8, 2009
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                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Axel Berger" <Axel-Berger@...>
                    To: <ntb-html@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 4:32 AM
                    Subject: Re: [NH] centering image for all monitors


                    Alex wrote:

                    > Sorry for being a nasty unhelpful soandso again, but your code does
                    > not even validate and is full of mistakes. Validating tools exist
                    > and trying to make anything surrounded by unvalid code do something
                    > specific, be it sing, dance, or centre, is a mug's game.
                    >
                    > Apart from errors and typos like missing quotes there is one big
                    > mistage: You let the user load down a huge image over his slow and
                    > expensive connection and then use the browser's (any browser's) very
                    > basic and substandard mechanism to scale it down. Always scale
                    > images to the desired size first and insert them at exactly that
                    > size.
                    >
                    > Axel
                    and he also wrote:
                    One shouldn't use *any* fixed size for fonts. It is up to the user to
                    set up his browser to suit his monitor and eyesight and up to us to
                    respect these choices. This means the basic font size for normal text
                    should never be messed with and all other sizes, big, headlines, and the
                    "small print", ought to be expressed in units of em. Many sites are done
                    so badly that the only sensible choice is turning off the rendering of
                    CSS completely. Is this what we want to force our readers (and sometimes
                    voters and customers) into having to do?

                    Alex,
                    Of course you are correct and I will endeavor to make the necessary changes
                    as time marches on. I really appreciate you help. I think letting the
                    viewer be the master of the fonts is a great idea. Would you give me a web
                    page site of yours so I can view the source and see exactly how you did
                    this. I can read about it all day on W3C and never really fully understand
                    what they are saying. Seeing the code on a page is very helpful and changing
                    the fonts to the ones that I like would be great. Once again let me say
                    thank you for replying to my questions. I really do appreciate all the
                    critiques, I always find them very useful and the people on this yahoo group
                    are always so good to pitch in and help.

                    I will check the images, I thought I had photoshopped them down to a small
                    resolution. Very sorry about that. I will do make the resolution smaller as
                    time permits and before I put the pages up on a hosting site.
                    Ed B
                  • Don - HtmlFixIt.com
                    Message 9 of 20 , Jan 8, 2009
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                      <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"
                      "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd">
                      <html lang="en">
                      <head>
                      <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
                      <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
                      <title>Saltillo Home Page</title>
                      <style type="text/css" media="screen">
                      body
                      {
                      margin: 0;
                      padding: 0;
                      font-size: 90%;
                      font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif;
                      color: blue;
                      }

                      #gutter
                      {
                      float: left;
                      width: 3%;
                      height: 1px;
                      }

                      #col1
                      {
                      float: left;
                      width: 800px;
                      background-color: #fff;
                      margin-bottom: 10px;
                      margin-left: 3%;
                      text-align: center;
                      }

                      #col2
                      {
                      float: left;
                      width: 170px;
                      background-color: #fff;
                      margin-bottom: 10px;
                      }

                      #col3
                      {
                      float: left;
                      width: 170px;
                      margin-left: 3%;
                      background-color: #fff;
                      margin-bottom: 10px;
                      }

                      #footer
                      {
                      clear: both;
                      height: 50px;
                      background-color: #fff;
                      }

                      h1
                      {
                      margin: 0;
                      padding: 5px;
                      text-align: center;
                      color: blue;
                      }

                      h2
                      {
                      margin-top: 0;
                      padding-top: 7px;
                      text-align: center
                      font-size: 25pt
                      color: blue;
                      }

                      h2, p
                      {
                      margin-left: 7px;
                      margin-right: 7px;
                      color: blue;
                      }
                      h3 {text-align: center
                      font-size: 20pt
                      color: blue;
                      }

                      h4 {
                      onload='javascript:write_date()'
                      }

                      a:link {
                      text-decoration: none;
                      color: navy;
                      }
                      a:visited {
                      text-decoration: none;
                      color: navy;
                      }
                      a:active {
                      text-decoration: none;
                      color: navy;
                      }
                      a:hover {color: red;
                      text-decoration: bold;
                      }
                      </style>
                      </head>


                      <body>
                      <div id="gutter"></div>
                      <div id="col2">
                      <p><img
                      src="http://home.comcast.net/~ebrown1927/Weatherford/images/elite1a.jpg"
                      width="144" height="157" border="0" alt="elite physical therapy logo" /></p>
                      <p>
                      <a href="home.html">Home</a><br>
                      <a href="dir.html">Directions</a><br>
                      <a href="water_aerobics.html">Water Aerobics</a><br>
                      <a href="aquatic_therapy.html">Water Therapy</a><br>
                      <a href="contact.html">Contact Us</a><br>
                      <a href="about.html">About Us</a><br>
                      <a href="gallery.html">Our Picture Gallery</a>
                      </p>
                      </div>

                      <div id="col1">
                      <h1>Saltillo</h1>
                      <h2>Elite Physical Therapy and Aquatic Center</h2>
                      <p><img
                      src="http://home.comcast.net/~ebrown1927/Weatherford/images/bldg1b.jpg"
                      width="360" height="187" border="0" alt="physical therapy building" /></p>
                      <h3>"Meeting all of your Physical Therapy<br>and Rehabilitation Needs"</h3>


                      </div>

                      <div id="col3">
                      <img
                      src="http://home.comcast.net/~ebrown1927/Weatherford/images/elite1a.jpg"
                      width="144" height="157" border="0" alt="elite physical therapy
                      logo"></div>


                      <div id="footer"><!-- currently empty footer --></div>
                      </body>
                      </html>


                      Edward wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: "Axel Berger" <Axel-Berger@...>
                      > To: <ntb-html@yahoogroups.com>
                      > Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 4:32 AM
                      > Subject: Re: [NH] centering image for all monitors
                      >
                      >
                      > Alex wrote:
                      >
                      >> Sorry for being a nasty unhelpful soandso again, but your code does
                      >> not even validate and is full of mistakes. Validating tools exist
                      >> and trying to make anything surrounded by unvalid code do something
                      >> specific, be it sing, dance, or centre, is a mug's game.
                      >>
                      >> Apart from errors and typos like missing quotes there is one big
                      >> mistage: You let the user load down a huge image over his slow and
                      >> expensive connection and then use the browser's (any browser's) very
                      >> basic and substandard mechanism to scale it down. Always scale
                      >> images to the desired size first and insert them at exactly that
                      >> size.
                      >>
                      >> Axel
                      > and he also wrote:
                      > One shouldn't use *any* fixed size for fonts. It is up to the user to
                      > set up his browser to suit his monitor and eyesight and up to us to
                      > respect these choices. This means the basic font size for normal text
                      > should never be messed with and all other sizes, big, headlines, and the
                      > "small print", ought to be expressed in units of em. Many sites are done
                      > so badly that the only sensible choice is turning off the rendering of
                      > CSS completely. Is this what we want to force our readers (and sometimes
                      > voters and customers) into having to do?
                      >
                      > Alex,
                      > Of course you are correct and I will endeavor to make the necessary changes
                      > as time marches on. I really appreciate you help. I think letting the
                      > viewer be the master of the fonts is a great idea. Would you give me a web
                      > page site of yours so I can view the source and see exactly how you did
                      > this. I can read about it all day on W3C and never really fully understand
                      > what they are saying. Seeing the code on a page is very helpful and changing
                      > the fonts to the ones that I like would be great. Once again let me say
                      > thank you for replying to my questions. I really do appreciate all the
                      > critiques, I always find them very useful and the people on this yahoo group
                      > are always so good to pitch in and help.
                      >
                      > I will check the images, I thought I had photoshopped them down to a small
                      > resolution. Very sorry about that. I will do make the resolution smaller as
                      > time permits and before I put the pages up on a hosting site.
                      > Ed B
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > Fookes Software: http://www.fookes.com/
                      > NoteTab website: http://www.notetab.com/
                      > NoteTab Discussion Lists: http://www.notetab.com/groups.php
                      >
                      > ***
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • Greg Chapman
                      Hi, ... I understand that no modern browser actually renders true XHTML and simply converts the code to HTML and renders that. In consequence, there is little
                      Message 10 of 20 , Jan 8, 2009
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                        Hi,

                        On 08 Jan 09 19:14 MotoMania <motomania@...> said:
                        > Glad that got things started. I try to stay W3C XHTML 1.1 and CSS
                        > standard with any sites that I create or update.

                        I understand that no modern browser actually renders true XHTML and
                        simply converts the code to HTML and renders that. In consequence,
                        there is little point in writing XHTML markup for web sites. These
                        days XHTML is seen as a (rare?) blind alley up which the W3C
                        travelled. Indeed, I believe there is now an W3C HTML v5 working group
                        to update HTML for the modern environment.

                        I confess that I have never bothered to check out these tales (from
                        people I respect) which I read on other forums, but the snippets I do
                        read elsewhere suggest that their remarks are true.

                        These days my own sites use HTML4 STRICT (which obliges use of CSS).
                        It certainly handles the vast majority of hassles I used to get with
                        some browsers.

                        Greg
                      • Axel Berger
                        ... A good choice. A few words about why I have chosen differently. For myself I absolutely see no point whatsoever in updating working and well set-up
                        Message 11 of 20 , Jan 8, 2009
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                          Greg Chapman wrote:
                          > These days my own sites use HTML4 STRICT

                          A good choice. A few words about why I have chosen differently. For
                          myself I absolutely see no point whatsoever in updating working and
                          well set-up software (and hardware for that matter) every five
                          minutes unless it brings genuine new capabilities that I consider
                          worth it. So I've made absolute backwards compatibility my second
                          priority, right after validity. Unless a main part of my content
                          can't be shown in an old version in principle, like images and video
                          in a pure text browser, I want to make it as good as possible for
                          even the oldest and most basic browsers there were and I still check
                          everything in Netscape 4.8.
                          Now, when there is no CSS capability, a few ALIGN="" tags and such
                          can make a lot of difference. If they and CSS are both present and
                          in conflict, then CSS takes precedence, so they won't hurt. For that
                          I need to stick to TRANSITIONAL, but I try to go beyond strict only
                          sparingly.

                          Axel
                        • Edward
                          This does not work on my monitor. The right logo is under the left logo.The picture and statements are to far to the right. ed Blessed are they who can laugh
                          Message 12 of 20 , Jan 8, 2009
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                            This does not work on my monitor. The right logo is under the left logo.The
                            picture and statements are to far to the right.
                            ed

                            Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves
                            for they shall never cease to be amused.
                            -- Unknown

                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "Don - HtmlFixIt.com" <don@...>
                            To: <ntb-html@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 2:36 PM
                            Subject: Re: [NH] centering image for all monitors


                            > <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"
                            > "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd">
                            > <html lang="en">
                            > <head>
                            > <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
                            > <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
                            > <title>Saltillo Home Page</title>
                            > <style type="text/css" media="screen">
                            > body
                            > {
                            > margin: 0;
                            > padding: 0;
                            > font-size: 90%;
                            > font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif;
                            > color: blue;
                            > }
                            >
                            > #gutter
                            > {
                            > float: left;
                            > width: 3%;
                            > height: 1px;
                            > }
                            >
                            > #col1
                            > {
                            > float: left;
                            > width: 800px;
                            > background-color: #fff;
                            > margin-bottom: 10px;
                            > margin-left: 3%;
                            > text-align: center;
                            > }
                            >
                            > #col2
                            > {
                            > float: left;
                            > width: 170px;
                            > background-color: #fff;
                            > margin-bottom: 10px;
                            > }
                            >
                            > #col3
                            > {
                            > float: left;
                            > width: 170px;
                            > margin-left: 3%;
                            > background-color: #fff;
                            > margin-bottom: 10px;
                            > }
                            >
                            > #footer
                            > {
                            > clear: both;
                            > height: 50px;
                            > background-color: #fff;
                            > }
                            >
                            > h1
                            > {
                            > margin: 0;
                            > padding: 5px;
                            > text-align: center;
                            > color: blue;
                            > }
                            >
                            > h2
                            > {
                            > margin-top: 0;
                            > padding-top: 7px;
                            > text-align: center
                            > font-size: 25pt
                            > color: blue;
                            > }
                            >
                            > h2, p
                            > {
                            > margin-left: 7px;
                            > margin-right: 7px;
                            > color: blue;
                            > }
                            > h3 {text-align: center
                            > font-size: 20pt
                            > color: blue;
                            > }
                            >
                            > h4 {
                            > onload='javascript:write_date()'
                            > }
                            >
                            > a:link {
                            > text-decoration: none;
                            > color: navy;
                            > }
                            > a:visited {
                            > text-decoration: none;
                            > color: navy;
                            > }
                            > a:active {
                            > text-decoration: none;
                            > color: navy;
                            > }
                            > a:hover {color: red;
                            > text-decoration: bold;
                            > }
                            > </style>
                            > </head>
                            >
                            >
                            > <body>
                            > <div id="gutter"></div>
                            > <div id="col2">
                            > <p><img
                            > src="http://home.comcast.net/~ebrown1927/Weatherford/images/elite1a.jpg"
                            > width="144" height="157" border="0" alt="elite physical therapy logo"
                            > /></p>
                            > <p>
                            > <a href="home.html">Home</a><br>
                            > <a href="dir.html">Directions</a><br>
                            > <a href="water_aerobics.html">Water Aerobics</a><br>
                            > <a href="aquatic_therapy.html">Water Therapy</a><br>
                            > <a href="contact.html">Contact Us</a><br>
                            > <a href="about.html">About Us</a><br>
                            > <a href="gallery.html">Our Picture Gallery</a>
                            > </p>
                            > </div>
                            >
                            > <div id="col1">
                            > <h1>Saltillo</h1>
                            > <h2>Elite Physical Therapy and Aquatic Center</h2>
                            > <p><img
                            > src="http://home.comcast.net/~ebrown1927/Weatherford/images/bldg1b.jpg"
                            > width="360" height="187" border="0" alt="physical therapy building" /></p>
                            > <h3>"Meeting all of your Physical Therapy<br>and Rehabilitation
                            > Needs"</h3>
                            >
                            >
                            > </div>
                            >
                            > <div id="col3">
                            > <img
                            > src="http://home.comcast.net/~ebrown1927/Weatherford/images/elite1a.jpg"
                            > width="144" height="157" border="0" alt="elite physical therapy
                            > logo"></div>
                            >
                            >
                            > <div id="footer"><!-- currently empty footer --></div>
                            > </body>
                            > </html>
                            >
                            >
                            > Edward wrote:
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >> ----- Original Message -----
                            >> From: "Axel Berger" <Axel-Berger@...>
                            >> To: <ntb-html@yahoogroups.com>
                            >> Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 4:32 AM
                            >> Subject: Re: [NH] centering image for all monitors
                            >>
                            >>
                            >> Alex wrote:
                            >>
                            >>> Sorry for being a nasty unhelpful soandso again, but your code does
                            >>> not even validate and is full of mistakes. Validating tools exist
                            >>> and trying to make anything surrounded by unvalid code do something
                            >>> specific, be it sing, dance, or centre, is a mug's game.
                            >>>
                            >>> Apart from errors and typos like missing quotes there is one big
                            >>> mistage: You let the user load down a huge image over his slow and
                            >>> expensive connection and then use the browser's (any browser's) very
                            >>> basic and substandard mechanism to scale it down. Always scale
                            >>> images to the desired size first and insert them at exactly that
                            >>> size.
                            >>>
                            >>> Axel
                            >> and he also wrote:
                            >> One shouldn't use *any* fixed size for fonts. It is up to the user to
                            >> set up his browser to suit his monitor and eyesight and up to us to
                            >> respect these choices. This means the basic font size for normal text
                            >> should never be messed with and all other sizes, big, headlines, and the
                            >> "small print", ought to be expressed in units of em. Many sites are done
                            >> so badly that the only sensible choice is turning off the rendering of
                            >> CSS completely. Is this what we want to force our readers (and sometimes
                            >> voters and customers) into having to do?
                            >>
                            >> Alex,
                            >> Of course you are correct and I will endeavor to make the necessary
                            >> changes
                            >> as time marches on. I really appreciate you help. I think letting the
                            >> viewer be the master of the fonts is a great idea. Would you give me a
                            >> web
                            >> page site of yours so I can view the source and see exactly how you did
                            >> this. I can read about it all day on W3C and never really fully
                            >> understand
                            >> what they are saying. Seeing the code on a page is very helpful and
                            >> changing
                            >> the fonts to the ones that I like would be great. Once again let me say
                            >> thank you for replying to my questions. I really do appreciate all the
                            >> critiques, I always find them very useful and the people on this yahoo
                            >> group
                            >> are always so good to pitch in and help.
                            >>
                            >> I will check the images, I thought I had photoshopped them down to a
                            >> small
                            >> resolution. Very sorry about that. I will do make the resolution smaller
                            >> as
                            >> time permits and before I put the pages up on a hosting site.
                            >> Ed B
                            >>
                            >>
                            >> ------------------------------------
                            >>
                            >> Fookes Software: http://www.fookes.com/
                            >> NoteTab website: http://www.notetab.com/
                            >> NoteTab Discussion Lists: http://www.notetab.com/groups.php
                            >>
                            >> ***
                            >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >
                            >
                            > ------------------------------------
                            >
                            > Fookes Software: http://www.fookes.com/
                            > NoteTab website: http://www.notetab.com/
                            > NoteTab Discussion Lists: http://www.notetab.com/groups.php
                            >
                            > ***
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                          • Axel Berger
                            ... There are two: http://axel.berger-odenthal.de/ http://fdp-odenthal.de/pages/Technik.shtml The first is my own and as primitive and basic as it gets. The
                            Message 13 of 20 , Jan 8, 2009
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                              Edward wrote:
                              > Would you give me a web page site of yours

                              There are two:
                              http://axel.berger-odenthal.de/
                              http://fdp-odenthal.de/pages/Technik.shtml

                              The first is my own and as primitive and basic as it gets. The
                              second is done for the local party and the page with the technical
                              details is in English (as technical documentation ought to be IMHO).
                              You'll notice I disregarded my own rule about font size and set it
                              at 75% of the browser default (but using a relative size it can
                              still be scaled). That's because the visual design is a faithful
                              copy and ripoff of other party designs, though the code is mine,
                              clean and validating.

                              The technical sample is seriously out of date by now, but the main
                              parts not changed.

                              Axel
                            • Cary
                              Basically, all modern, major browsers handle true xhtml, that is xhtml served as xhtml rather than html, except IE which will ask you to save the page as a
                              Message 14 of 20 , Jan 8, 2009
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                                Basically, all modern, major browsers handle true xhtml, that is xhtml
                                served as xhtml rather than html, except IE which will ask you to save
                                the page as a file.

                                Obviously, sites configured for access by the general public are set
                                up to serve pages as html so IE won't choke. Xhtml 1.0 is fine for
                                this purpose, but xhtml 1.1 should only be used if it is in fact going
                                to be served as xhtml.


                                --- In ntb-html@yahoogroups.com, Greg Chapman wrote:
                                >
                                > Hi,
                                >
                                > On 08 Jan 09 19:14 MotoMania said:
                                > > Glad that got things started. I try to stay W3C XHTML 1.1 and CSS
                                > > standard with any sites that I create or update.
                                >
                                > I understand that no modern browser actually renders true XHTML and
                                > simply converts the code to HTML and renders that. In consequence,
                                > there is little point in writing XHTML markup for web sites. These
                                > days XHTML is seen as a (rare?) blind alley up which the W3C
                                > travelled. Indeed, I believe there is now an W3C HTML v5 working group
                                > to update HTML for the modern environment.
                                >
                                > I confess that I have never bothered to check out these tales (from
                                > people I respect) which I read on other forums, but the snippets I do
                                > read elsewhere suggest that their remarks are true.
                                >
                                > These days my own sites use HTML4 STRICT (which obliges use of CSS).
                                > It certainly handles the vast majority of hassles I used to get with
                                > some browsers.
                                >
                                > Greg
                                >
                              • Cary
                                Looking at the current page, the link styling should be changed so hover comes before active. a:link {text-decoration: none; color: navy;} a:visited
                                Message 15 of 20 , Jan 8, 2009
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                                  Looking at the current page, the link styling should be changed so
                                  hover comes before active.

                                  a:link {text-decoration: none; color: navy;}
                                  a:visited {text-decoration: none; color: navy;}
                                  a:hover {color: red; text-decoration: bold}
                                  a:active {text-decoration: none; color: navy;}
                                  a.other:link {color: #99FFFF; text-decoration: none}
                                  a.other:visited {color: #99FFFF; text-decoration: none}
                                  a.other:hover {color: pink; text-decoration: bold}
                                  a.other:active {color: red; text-decoration: none}


                                  --- In ntb-html@yahoogroups.com, "Edward" wrote:
                                  >
                                  > I am having trouble getting an image to center after putting a table
                                  with the links ot other pages on the left side of the page...
                                • loro
                                  ... Exactly my opinion. With reservations for what Cary already said, that XHTML is treated as XML if it s served with an XHTML content-type. But it can t be,
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Jan 8, 2009
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                                    Greg Chapman wrote:
                                    >I understand that no modern browser actually renders true XHTML and
                                    >simply converts the code to HTML and renders that. In consequence,
                                    >there is little point in writing XHTML markup for web sites.

                                    Exactly my opinion. With reservations for what Cary already said,
                                    that XHTML is treated as XML if it's served with an XHTML
                                    content-type. But it can't be, partly because of IE and partly
                                    because many (most?) XHTML pages wouldn't display in any browser if
                                    they were served with the correct content-type.

                                    XML has few requirements, but one of them is that a page that isn't
                                    well-formed shouldn't be displayed by the browser. All browsers
                                    conform to this. Since many XHTML pages aren't as well-written as
                                    their authors think when they plaster that XHTML button on, there
                                    would be a lot of blank pages on the web and most authors would
                                    quickly revert to HTML and the blessings of the error handling HTML
                                    parsers are so richly equipped with.

                                    This requirement makes me think XML isn't really suited to be used on
                                    this side of the server. Generated on the server, validated and
                                    foolproofed on the server, maybe. But how often does that happen? Can
                                    you imagine a site of any importance to its users or to the owner
                                    that goes blank until someone has found the tiny little error that
                                    maybe originates deep down in some server side program?

                                    Strict instead of Transitional is much more important. The fact that
                                    there even exists a Transitional version of XHTML and that it's
                                    widely used say everything about what the XHTML hype is about. I
                                    think the expression is "blowing smoke". ;-)

                                    Lotta
                                  • Axel Berger
                                    ... I would consider that as a huge advantage over current affairs. Now there is all kinds of junk all over the place and if it isn t displayed, people blame
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Jan 9, 2009
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                                      loro wrote:
                                      > there would be a lot of blank pages on the web and most
                                      > authors would quickly revert to HTML and the blessings
                                      > of the error handling HTML parsers are so richly equipped
                                      > with.

                                      I would consider that as a huge advantage over current affairs. Now
                                      there is all kinds of junk all over the place and if it isn't
                                      displayed, people blame their browser. More importantly and worse,
                                      if you go and complain to the junk merchants, they have the gall to
                                      tell you everyone else was satisfied and that it must be your fault.
                                      And of course, if all browsers gave error messages instead of
                                      guessed at approximate renderings our life would be easier and we'd
                                      not need to employ all those extra validating tools and would not
                                      get caught out by those easily overlooked little mistakes, that
                                      happen not to show up when trying things out in the few browsers and
                                      versions we happen to have at our disposal.

                                      Life would become harder for all thise idiots out there refusing to
                                      take care and not trying to do a good rather than botched job, but I
                                      don't see how that would be bad.

                                      Axel
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