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Re: [NH] centering image for all monitors

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  • Marcelo Bastos
    ... I didn t actually analyze your code, and there are probably (almost certainly) better ways to do this, but one quick hack is to place on the right a
    Message 1 of 20 , Jan 7, 2009
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      Interviewed by CNN on 8/1/2009 01:40, Edward told the world:
      > I am having trouble getting an image to center after putting a table with the links ot other pages on the left side of the page. I have managed on my computer to center the statement beneath the image. You can see what I have on the web at this address:
      > http://home.comcast.net/~ebrown1927/Weatherford/home.html The picture and the statement was centered until I put the links on the left side, that is where the owner wants the links, and then both the picture and statement moved to the right. I have the statement now centered on my computer but not on the web yet. But I have not been able to get the picture to move left any amount, except it will move all the way over next to the links. I want them centered below the top or opening statement which is the title of the home page. When I try to use absolute postioning the postion appears to change with monitor size. I must not be doing something right.
      >
      >
      I didn't actually analyze your code, and there are probably (almost
      certainly) better ways to do this, but one quick hack is to place on the
      right a transparent box of the same size as the links box you use. This
      will have the effect of balancing your design.

      Marcelo
      -=-=-
      Confuscious say: "Whan a Wiseman dont know an answer, he says pass"
      * TagZilla 0.066 on Seamonkey 1.1.14
    • MotoMania
      Howdy Ed, I took a quick look at your source code and you were trying to solve the layout using tables inside of tables. As you discovered, nesting tables can
      Message 2 of 20 , Jan 7, 2009
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        Howdy Ed,

        I took a quick look at your source code and you were trying to solve the
        layout using tables inside of tables. As you discovered, nesting tables
        can quickly make it very difficult to figure out what is where without
        using different color borders for different tables or cells.

        I redid your layout using a single table that has 3 rows with 3 columns.
        Like sisterscape, I prefer using div's for layout purposes but tables
        have been used for years. Feel free to take a look the source code, I
        put in a few comments to try to help explain a few things. The bottom
        row of three columns were merged, mainly just to show that you can do
        that like if want to use it as a footer that stretches across the width
        of table as one area.

        Of course, you can change the table width to a set size in pixels, If
        wanted but that will keep the table from being "liquid".

        Here's that page I put together. Hope it helps a bit.

        http://www.mickhousel.com/edbrown/edbrown.html

        Mick

        Edward wrote:
        > I am having trouble getting an image to center after putting a table
        > with the links ot other pages on the left side of the page. I have
        > managed on my computer to center the statement beneath the image. You
        > can see what I have on the web at this address:
        > http://home.comcast.net/~ebrown1927/Weatherford/home.html
        > <http://home.comcast.net/~ebrown1927/Weatherford/home.html> The picture
        > and the statement was centered until I put the links on the left side,
        > that is where the owner wants the links, and then both the picture and
        > statement moved to the right. I have the statement now centered on my
        > computer but not on the web yet. But I have not been able to get the
        > picture to move left any amount, except it will move all the way over
        > next to the links. I want them centered below the top or opening
        > statement which is the title of the home page. When I try to use
        > absolute postioning the postion appears to change with monitor size. I
        > must not be doing something right.
        >
        > Ed Brown
      • Axel Berger
        ... Sorry for being a nasty unhelpful soandso again, but your code does not even validate and is full of mistakes. Validating tools exist and trying to make
        Message 3 of 20 , Jan 8, 2009
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          Edward wrote:
          > I am having trouble

          Sorry for being a nasty unhelpful soandso again, but your code does
          not even validate and is full of mistakes. Validating tools exist
          and trying to make anything surrounded by unvalid code do something
          specific, be it sing, dance, or centre, is a mug's game.

          Apart from errors and typos like missing quotes there is one big
          mistage: You let the user load down a huge image over his slow and
          expensive connection and then use the browser's (any browser's) very
          basic and substandard mechanism to scale it down. Always scale
          images to the desired size first and insert them at exactly that
          size.

          Axel
        • loro
          ... Just remove the table around that H3. You already have the below rule in your style sheet. That s all you need with the table gone. h3 {text-align: center;
          Message 4 of 20 , Jan 8, 2009
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            Edward wrote:
            >I am having trouble getting an image to center after putting a table
            >with the links ot other pages on the left side of the page. I have
            >managed on my computer to center the statement beneath the
            >image. You can see what I have on the web at this address:
            >http://home.comcast.net/~ebrown1927/Weatherford/home.html

            Just remove the table around that H3. You already have the below rule
            in your style sheet. That's all you need with the table gone.

            h3 {text-align: center; font-size: 20pt; color: blue;}

            If you want another font-size for this H3, you could use a class. But
            you shouldn't use pt as the unit. That's for print.

            Good luck! :-)
            Lotta
          • Axel Berger
            ... One shouldn t use *any* fixed size for fonts. It is up to the user to set up his browser to suit his monitor and eyesight and up to us to respect these
            Message 5 of 20 , Jan 8, 2009
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              loro wrote:
              > But you shouldn't use pt as the unit. That's for print.

              One shouldn't use *any* fixed size for fonts. It is up to the user to
              set up his browser to suit his monitor and eyesight and up to us to
              respect these choices. This means the basic font size for normal text
              should never be messed with and all other sizes, big, headlines, and the
              "small print", ought to be expressed in units of em. Many sites are done
              so badly that the only sensible choice is turning off the rendering of
              CSS completely. Is this what we want to force our readers (and sometimes
              voters and customers) into having to do?

              Axel
            • Edward
              Thanks everyone, great answers, and I will be changing the site to more modern techniques of page writing soon. Main thing now is to get a decent looking page
              Message 6 of 20 , Jan 8, 2009
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                Thanks everyone, great answers, and I will be changing the site to more modern techniques of page writing soon. Main thing now is to get a decent looking page up with what I know and have used as I work it up to xhtml, whch I was using before I stopped authoring web pages. I will be working on it the rest of the day. So in a couple of hours you can view it and see the changes. When I get stumped again, I will be back with more stupid questions. While I was in the Navy I was an instructor in basic electricity and electronics. One of the first statements I made to the class is that there is no such thing as a stupid question.

                I like to use signatures so a year or two ago one of my sigs said "There is no such thing as a stupid question, but they are the easiest to answer" I made that up myself remembering my days in the classroom and was using it when I wrote to the techsupportguy forums for help. Now you can see it permanently on their website, because you and I know that there are stupid questions. lol. Again many thanks and no doubt I will be back. thanks to each one of you. I printed your replies and now I am off to work.
                Ed

                Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves
                for they shall never cease to be amused.
                -- Unknown


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Edward
                Mick I have purloined you page for the present. Looks like what the boss wants. I will be making changes as I go, but I may stay with your tables until I get
                Message 7 of 20 , Jan 8, 2009
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                  Mick
                  I have purloined you page for the present. Looks like what the boss wants.
                  I will be making changes as I go, but I may stay with your tables until I
                  get to working with divs. I have used tables within tables and in fact just
                  about every you that you can use tables but I quit making pages several
                  years ago and not only lost out on keeping up with the changes, but at 80+
                  years my brain has lost some of its abilities but it still does pretty good.
                  Thanks for your help. I will be working with divs. May have to go find the
                  latest cightml book.
                  Ed

                  Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves
                  for they shall never cease to be amused.
                  -- Unknown

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "MotoMania" <motomania@...>
                  To: <ntb-html@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 12:15 AM
                  Subject: Re: [NH] centering image for all monitors


                  > Howdy Ed,
                  >
                  > I took a quick look at your source code and you were trying to solve the
                  > layout using tables inside of tables. As you discovered, nesting tables
                  > can quickly make it very difficult to figure out what is where without
                  > using different color borders for different tables or cells.
                  >
                  > I redid your layout using a single table that has 3 rows with 3 columns.
                  > Like sisterscape, I prefer using div's for layout purposes but tables
                  > have been used for years. Feel free to take a look the source code, I
                  > put in a few comments to try to help explain a few things. The bottom
                  > row of three columns were merged, mainly just to show that you can do
                  > that like if want to use it as a footer that stretches across the width
                  > of table as one area.
                  >
                  > Of course, you can change the table width to a set size in pixels, If
                  > wanted but that will keep the table from being "liquid".
                  >
                  > Here's that page I put together. Hope it helps a bit.
                  >
                  > http://www.mickhousel.com/edbrown/edbrown.html
                  >
                  > Mick
                  >
                  > Edward wrote:
                  >> I am having trouble getting an image to center after putting a table
                  >> with the links ot other pages on the left side of the page. I have
                  >> managed on my computer to center the statement beneath the image. You
                  >> can see what I have on the web at this address:
                  >> http://home.comcast.net/~ebrown1927/Weatherford/home.html
                  >> <http://home.comcast.net/~ebrown1927/Weatherford/home.html> The picture
                  >> and the statement was centered until I put the links on the left side,
                  >> that is where the owner wants the links, and then both the picture and
                  >> statement moved to the right. I have the statement now centered on my
                  >> computer but not on the web yet. But I have not been able to get the
                  >> picture to move left any amount, except it will move all the way over
                  >> next to the links. I want them centered below the top or opening
                  >> statement which is the title of the home page. When I try to use
                  >> absolute postioning the postion appears to change with monitor size. I
                  >> must not be doing something right.
                  >>
                  >> Ed Brown
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > Fookes Software: http://www.fookes.com/
                  > NoteTab website: http://www.notetab.com/
                  > NoteTab Discussion Lists: http://www.notetab.com/groups.php
                  >
                  > ***
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • MotoMania
                  Sorry if I came across as preaching about nesting tables but it s an easy way to get lost in layouts. Glad that got things started. I try to stay W3C XHTML 1.1
                  Message 8 of 20 , Jan 8, 2009
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                    Sorry if I came across as preaching about nesting tables but it's an
                    easy way to get lost in layouts.

                    Glad that got things started. I try to stay W3C XHTML 1.1 and CSS
                    standard with any sites that I create or update. Once you get your head
                    around working with div's for layout, you create some interesting stuff.

                    Good on ya for keeping your brain occupied and being creative. I use PHP
                    quite a bit in websites. Building modules like menus, footers, etc.
                    using various variables such as userlevels, etc. and then just include
                    the correct menu/file/etc. I love the fact that I can edit one line in
                    one file that is used in hundreds/thousands of pages instead of editing
                    hundreds/thousands of pages for a one line change. Even with the great
                    search and replace functionality of NTB, it's just much simpler to do a
                    quick edit and be done.

                    Mick

                    Edward wrote:
                    > Mick
                    > I have purloined you page for the present. Looks like what the boss wants.
                    > I will be making changes as I go, but I may stay with your tables until I
                    > get to working with divs. I have used tables within tables and in fact just
                    > about every you that you can use tables but I quit making pages several
                    > years ago and not only lost out on keeping up with the changes, but at 80+
                    > years my brain has lost some of its abilities but it still does pretty
                    > good.
                    > Thanks for your help. I will be working with divs. May have to go find the
                    > latest cightml book.
                    > Ed
                    >
                    > Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves
                    > for they shall never cease to be amused.
                    > -- Unknown
                  • Edward
                    ... From: Axel Berger To: Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 4:32 AM Subject: Re: [NH] centering image for
                    Message 9 of 20 , Jan 8, 2009
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                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Axel Berger" <Axel-Berger@...>
                      To: <ntb-html@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 4:32 AM
                      Subject: Re: [NH] centering image for all monitors


                      Alex wrote:

                      > Sorry for being a nasty unhelpful soandso again, but your code does
                      > not even validate and is full of mistakes. Validating tools exist
                      > and trying to make anything surrounded by unvalid code do something
                      > specific, be it sing, dance, or centre, is a mug's game.
                      >
                      > Apart from errors and typos like missing quotes there is one big
                      > mistage: You let the user load down a huge image over his slow and
                      > expensive connection and then use the browser's (any browser's) very
                      > basic and substandard mechanism to scale it down. Always scale
                      > images to the desired size first and insert them at exactly that
                      > size.
                      >
                      > Axel
                      and he also wrote:
                      One shouldn't use *any* fixed size for fonts. It is up to the user to
                      set up his browser to suit his monitor and eyesight and up to us to
                      respect these choices. This means the basic font size for normal text
                      should never be messed with and all other sizes, big, headlines, and the
                      "small print", ought to be expressed in units of em. Many sites are done
                      so badly that the only sensible choice is turning off the rendering of
                      CSS completely. Is this what we want to force our readers (and sometimes
                      voters and customers) into having to do?

                      Alex,
                      Of course you are correct and I will endeavor to make the necessary changes
                      as time marches on. I really appreciate you help. I think letting the
                      viewer be the master of the fonts is a great idea. Would you give me a web
                      page site of yours so I can view the source and see exactly how you did
                      this. I can read about it all day on W3C and never really fully understand
                      what they are saying. Seeing the code on a page is very helpful and changing
                      the fonts to the ones that I like would be great. Once again let me say
                      thank you for replying to my questions. I really do appreciate all the
                      critiques, I always find them very useful and the people on this yahoo group
                      are always so good to pitch in and help.

                      I will check the images, I thought I had photoshopped them down to a small
                      resolution. Very sorry about that. I will do make the resolution smaller as
                      time permits and before I put the pages up on a hosting site.
                      Ed B
                    • Don - HtmlFixIt.com
                      Message 10 of 20 , Jan 8, 2009
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                        <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"
                        "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd">
                        <html lang="en">
                        <head>
                        <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
                        <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
                        <title>Saltillo Home Page</title>
                        <style type="text/css" media="screen">
                        body
                        {
                        margin: 0;
                        padding: 0;
                        font-size: 90%;
                        font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif;
                        color: blue;
                        }

                        #gutter
                        {
                        float: left;
                        width: 3%;
                        height: 1px;
                        }

                        #col1
                        {
                        float: left;
                        width: 800px;
                        background-color: #fff;
                        margin-bottom: 10px;
                        margin-left: 3%;
                        text-align: center;
                        }

                        #col2
                        {
                        float: left;
                        width: 170px;
                        background-color: #fff;
                        margin-bottom: 10px;
                        }

                        #col3
                        {
                        float: left;
                        width: 170px;
                        margin-left: 3%;
                        background-color: #fff;
                        margin-bottom: 10px;
                        }

                        #footer
                        {
                        clear: both;
                        height: 50px;
                        background-color: #fff;
                        }

                        h1
                        {
                        margin: 0;
                        padding: 5px;
                        text-align: center;
                        color: blue;
                        }

                        h2
                        {
                        margin-top: 0;
                        padding-top: 7px;
                        text-align: center
                        font-size: 25pt
                        color: blue;
                        }

                        h2, p
                        {
                        margin-left: 7px;
                        margin-right: 7px;
                        color: blue;
                        }
                        h3 {text-align: center
                        font-size: 20pt
                        color: blue;
                        }

                        h4 {
                        onload='javascript:write_date()'
                        }

                        a:link {
                        text-decoration: none;
                        color: navy;
                        }
                        a:visited {
                        text-decoration: none;
                        color: navy;
                        }
                        a:active {
                        text-decoration: none;
                        color: navy;
                        }
                        a:hover {color: red;
                        text-decoration: bold;
                        }
                        </style>
                        </head>


                        <body>
                        <div id="gutter"></div>
                        <div id="col2">
                        <p><img
                        src="http://home.comcast.net/~ebrown1927/Weatherford/images/elite1a.jpg"
                        width="144" height="157" border="0" alt="elite physical therapy logo" /></p>
                        <p>
                        <a href="home.html">Home</a><br>
                        <a href="dir.html">Directions</a><br>
                        <a href="water_aerobics.html">Water Aerobics</a><br>
                        <a href="aquatic_therapy.html">Water Therapy</a><br>
                        <a href="contact.html">Contact Us</a><br>
                        <a href="about.html">About Us</a><br>
                        <a href="gallery.html">Our Picture Gallery</a>
                        </p>
                        </div>

                        <div id="col1">
                        <h1>Saltillo</h1>
                        <h2>Elite Physical Therapy and Aquatic Center</h2>
                        <p><img
                        src="http://home.comcast.net/~ebrown1927/Weatherford/images/bldg1b.jpg"
                        width="360" height="187" border="0" alt="physical therapy building" /></p>
                        <h3>"Meeting all of your Physical Therapy<br>and Rehabilitation Needs"</h3>


                        </div>

                        <div id="col3">
                        <img
                        src="http://home.comcast.net/~ebrown1927/Weatherford/images/elite1a.jpg"
                        width="144" height="157" border="0" alt="elite physical therapy
                        logo"></div>


                        <div id="footer"><!-- currently empty footer --></div>
                        </body>
                        </html>


                        Edward wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: "Axel Berger" <Axel-Berger@...>
                        > To: <ntb-html@yahoogroups.com>
                        > Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 4:32 AM
                        > Subject: Re: [NH] centering image for all monitors
                        >
                        >
                        > Alex wrote:
                        >
                        >> Sorry for being a nasty unhelpful soandso again, but your code does
                        >> not even validate and is full of mistakes. Validating tools exist
                        >> and trying to make anything surrounded by unvalid code do something
                        >> specific, be it sing, dance, or centre, is a mug's game.
                        >>
                        >> Apart from errors and typos like missing quotes there is one big
                        >> mistage: You let the user load down a huge image over his slow and
                        >> expensive connection and then use the browser's (any browser's) very
                        >> basic and substandard mechanism to scale it down. Always scale
                        >> images to the desired size first and insert them at exactly that
                        >> size.
                        >>
                        >> Axel
                        > and he also wrote:
                        > One shouldn't use *any* fixed size for fonts. It is up to the user to
                        > set up his browser to suit his monitor and eyesight and up to us to
                        > respect these choices. This means the basic font size for normal text
                        > should never be messed with and all other sizes, big, headlines, and the
                        > "small print", ought to be expressed in units of em. Many sites are done
                        > so badly that the only sensible choice is turning off the rendering of
                        > CSS completely. Is this what we want to force our readers (and sometimes
                        > voters and customers) into having to do?
                        >
                        > Alex,
                        > Of course you are correct and I will endeavor to make the necessary changes
                        > as time marches on. I really appreciate you help. I think letting the
                        > viewer be the master of the fonts is a great idea. Would you give me a web
                        > page site of yours so I can view the source and see exactly how you did
                        > this. I can read about it all day on W3C and never really fully understand
                        > what they are saying. Seeing the code on a page is very helpful and changing
                        > the fonts to the ones that I like would be great. Once again let me say
                        > thank you for replying to my questions. I really do appreciate all the
                        > critiques, I always find them very useful and the people on this yahoo group
                        > are always so good to pitch in and help.
                        >
                        > I will check the images, I thought I had photoshopped them down to a small
                        > resolution. Very sorry about that. I will do make the resolution smaller as
                        > time permits and before I put the pages up on a hosting site.
                        > Ed B
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------
                        >
                        > Fookes Software: http://www.fookes.com/
                        > NoteTab website: http://www.notetab.com/
                        > NoteTab Discussion Lists: http://www.notetab.com/groups.php
                        >
                        > ***
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • Greg Chapman
                        Hi, ... I understand that no modern browser actually renders true XHTML and simply converts the code to HTML and renders that. In consequence, there is little
                        Message 11 of 20 , Jan 8, 2009
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                          Hi,

                          On 08 Jan 09 19:14 MotoMania <motomania@...> said:
                          > Glad that got things started. I try to stay W3C XHTML 1.1 and CSS
                          > standard with any sites that I create or update.

                          I understand that no modern browser actually renders true XHTML and
                          simply converts the code to HTML and renders that. In consequence,
                          there is little point in writing XHTML markup for web sites. These
                          days XHTML is seen as a (rare?) blind alley up which the W3C
                          travelled. Indeed, I believe there is now an W3C HTML v5 working group
                          to update HTML for the modern environment.

                          I confess that I have never bothered to check out these tales (from
                          people I respect) which I read on other forums, but the snippets I do
                          read elsewhere suggest that their remarks are true.

                          These days my own sites use HTML4 STRICT (which obliges use of CSS).
                          It certainly handles the vast majority of hassles I used to get with
                          some browsers.

                          Greg
                        • Axel Berger
                          ... A good choice. A few words about why I have chosen differently. For myself I absolutely see no point whatsoever in updating working and well set-up
                          Message 12 of 20 , Jan 8, 2009
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                            Greg Chapman wrote:
                            > These days my own sites use HTML4 STRICT

                            A good choice. A few words about why I have chosen differently. For
                            myself I absolutely see no point whatsoever in updating working and
                            well set-up software (and hardware for that matter) every five
                            minutes unless it brings genuine new capabilities that I consider
                            worth it. So I've made absolute backwards compatibility my second
                            priority, right after validity. Unless a main part of my content
                            can't be shown in an old version in principle, like images and video
                            in a pure text browser, I want to make it as good as possible for
                            even the oldest and most basic browsers there were and I still check
                            everything in Netscape 4.8.
                            Now, when there is no CSS capability, a few ALIGN="" tags and such
                            can make a lot of difference. If they and CSS are both present and
                            in conflict, then CSS takes precedence, so they won't hurt. For that
                            I need to stick to TRANSITIONAL, but I try to go beyond strict only
                            sparingly.

                            Axel
                          • Edward
                            This does not work on my monitor. The right logo is under the left logo.The picture and statements are to far to the right. ed Blessed are they who can laugh
                            Message 13 of 20 , Jan 8, 2009
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                              This does not work on my monitor. The right logo is under the left logo.The
                              picture and statements are to far to the right.
                              ed

                              Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves
                              for they shall never cease to be amused.
                              -- Unknown

                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "Don - HtmlFixIt.com" <don@...>
                              To: <ntb-html@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 2:36 PM
                              Subject: Re: [NH] centering image for all monitors


                              > <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"
                              > "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd">
                              > <html lang="en">
                              > <head>
                              > <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
                              > <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
                              > <title>Saltillo Home Page</title>
                              > <style type="text/css" media="screen">
                              > body
                              > {
                              > margin: 0;
                              > padding: 0;
                              > font-size: 90%;
                              > font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif;
                              > color: blue;
                              > }
                              >
                              > #gutter
                              > {
                              > float: left;
                              > width: 3%;
                              > height: 1px;
                              > }
                              >
                              > #col1
                              > {
                              > float: left;
                              > width: 800px;
                              > background-color: #fff;
                              > margin-bottom: 10px;
                              > margin-left: 3%;
                              > text-align: center;
                              > }
                              >
                              > #col2
                              > {
                              > float: left;
                              > width: 170px;
                              > background-color: #fff;
                              > margin-bottom: 10px;
                              > }
                              >
                              > #col3
                              > {
                              > float: left;
                              > width: 170px;
                              > margin-left: 3%;
                              > background-color: #fff;
                              > margin-bottom: 10px;
                              > }
                              >
                              > #footer
                              > {
                              > clear: both;
                              > height: 50px;
                              > background-color: #fff;
                              > }
                              >
                              > h1
                              > {
                              > margin: 0;
                              > padding: 5px;
                              > text-align: center;
                              > color: blue;
                              > }
                              >
                              > h2
                              > {
                              > margin-top: 0;
                              > padding-top: 7px;
                              > text-align: center
                              > font-size: 25pt
                              > color: blue;
                              > }
                              >
                              > h2, p
                              > {
                              > margin-left: 7px;
                              > margin-right: 7px;
                              > color: blue;
                              > }
                              > h3 {text-align: center
                              > font-size: 20pt
                              > color: blue;
                              > }
                              >
                              > h4 {
                              > onload='javascript:write_date()'
                              > }
                              >
                              > a:link {
                              > text-decoration: none;
                              > color: navy;
                              > }
                              > a:visited {
                              > text-decoration: none;
                              > color: navy;
                              > }
                              > a:active {
                              > text-decoration: none;
                              > color: navy;
                              > }
                              > a:hover {color: red;
                              > text-decoration: bold;
                              > }
                              > </style>
                              > </head>
                              >
                              >
                              > <body>
                              > <div id="gutter"></div>
                              > <div id="col2">
                              > <p><img
                              > src="http://home.comcast.net/~ebrown1927/Weatherford/images/elite1a.jpg"
                              > width="144" height="157" border="0" alt="elite physical therapy logo"
                              > /></p>
                              > <p>
                              > <a href="home.html">Home</a><br>
                              > <a href="dir.html">Directions</a><br>
                              > <a href="water_aerobics.html">Water Aerobics</a><br>
                              > <a href="aquatic_therapy.html">Water Therapy</a><br>
                              > <a href="contact.html">Contact Us</a><br>
                              > <a href="about.html">About Us</a><br>
                              > <a href="gallery.html">Our Picture Gallery</a>
                              > </p>
                              > </div>
                              >
                              > <div id="col1">
                              > <h1>Saltillo</h1>
                              > <h2>Elite Physical Therapy and Aquatic Center</h2>
                              > <p><img
                              > src="http://home.comcast.net/~ebrown1927/Weatherford/images/bldg1b.jpg"
                              > width="360" height="187" border="0" alt="physical therapy building" /></p>
                              > <h3>"Meeting all of your Physical Therapy<br>and Rehabilitation
                              > Needs"</h3>
                              >
                              >
                              > </div>
                              >
                              > <div id="col3">
                              > <img
                              > src="http://home.comcast.net/~ebrown1927/Weatherford/images/elite1a.jpg"
                              > width="144" height="157" border="0" alt="elite physical therapy
                              > logo"></div>
                              >
                              >
                              > <div id="footer"><!-- currently empty footer --></div>
                              > </body>
                              > </html>
                              >
                              >
                              > Edward wrote:
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >> ----- Original Message -----
                              >> From: "Axel Berger" <Axel-Berger@...>
                              >> To: <ntb-html@yahoogroups.com>
                              >> Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 4:32 AM
                              >> Subject: Re: [NH] centering image for all monitors
                              >>
                              >>
                              >> Alex wrote:
                              >>
                              >>> Sorry for being a nasty unhelpful soandso again, but your code does
                              >>> not even validate and is full of mistakes. Validating tools exist
                              >>> and trying to make anything surrounded by unvalid code do something
                              >>> specific, be it sing, dance, or centre, is a mug's game.
                              >>>
                              >>> Apart from errors and typos like missing quotes there is one big
                              >>> mistage: You let the user load down a huge image over his slow and
                              >>> expensive connection and then use the browser's (any browser's) very
                              >>> basic and substandard mechanism to scale it down. Always scale
                              >>> images to the desired size first and insert them at exactly that
                              >>> size.
                              >>>
                              >>> Axel
                              >> and he also wrote:
                              >> One shouldn't use *any* fixed size for fonts. It is up to the user to
                              >> set up his browser to suit his monitor and eyesight and up to us to
                              >> respect these choices. This means the basic font size for normal text
                              >> should never be messed with and all other sizes, big, headlines, and the
                              >> "small print", ought to be expressed in units of em. Many sites are done
                              >> so badly that the only sensible choice is turning off the rendering of
                              >> CSS completely. Is this what we want to force our readers (and sometimes
                              >> voters and customers) into having to do?
                              >>
                              >> Alex,
                              >> Of course you are correct and I will endeavor to make the necessary
                              >> changes
                              >> as time marches on. I really appreciate you help. I think letting the
                              >> viewer be the master of the fonts is a great idea. Would you give me a
                              >> web
                              >> page site of yours so I can view the source and see exactly how you did
                              >> this. I can read about it all day on W3C and never really fully
                              >> understand
                              >> what they are saying. Seeing the code on a page is very helpful and
                              >> changing
                              >> the fonts to the ones that I like would be great. Once again let me say
                              >> thank you for replying to my questions. I really do appreciate all the
                              >> critiques, I always find them very useful and the people on this yahoo
                              >> group
                              >> are always so good to pitch in and help.
                              >>
                              >> I will check the images, I thought I had photoshopped them down to a
                              >> small
                              >> resolution. Very sorry about that. I will do make the resolution smaller
                              >> as
                              >> time permits and before I put the pages up on a hosting site.
                              >> Ed B
                              >>
                              >>
                              >> ------------------------------------
                              >>
                              >> Fookes Software: http://www.fookes.com/
                              >> NoteTab website: http://www.notetab.com/
                              >> NoteTab Discussion Lists: http://www.notetab.com/groups.php
                              >>
                              >> ***
                              >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >
                              >
                              > ------------------------------------
                              >
                              > Fookes Software: http://www.fookes.com/
                              > NoteTab website: http://www.notetab.com/
                              > NoteTab Discussion Lists: http://www.notetab.com/groups.php
                              >
                              > ***
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                            • Axel Berger
                              ... There are two: http://axel.berger-odenthal.de/ http://fdp-odenthal.de/pages/Technik.shtml The first is my own and as primitive and basic as it gets. The
                              Message 14 of 20 , Jan 8, 2009
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                                Edward wrote:
                                > Would you give me a web page site of yours

                                There are two:
                                http://axel.berger-odenthal.de/
                                http://fdp-odenthal.de/pages/Technik.shtml

                                The first is my own and as primitive and basic as it gets. The
                                second is done for the local party and the page with the technical
                                details is in English (as technical documentation ought to be IMHO).
                                You'll notice I disregarded my own rule about font size and set it
                                at 75% of the browser default (but using a relative size it can
                                still be scaled). That's because the visual design is a faithful
                                copy and ripoff of other party designs, though the code is mine,
                                clean and validating.

                                The technical sample is seriously out of date by now, but the main
                                parts not changed.

                                Axel
                              • Cary
                                Basically, all modern, major browsers handle true xhtml, that is xhtml served as xhtml rather than html, except IE which will ask you to save the page as a
                                Message 15 of 20 , Jan 8, 2009
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                                  Basically, all modern, major browsers handle true xhtml, that is xhtml
                                  served as xhtml rather than html, except IE which will ask you to save
                                  the page as a file.

                                  Obviously, sites configured for access by the general public are set
                                  up to serve pages as html so IE won't choke. Xhtml 1.0 is fine for
                                  this purpose, but xhtml 1.1 should only be used if it is in fact going
                                  to be served as xhtml.


                                  --- In ntb-html@yahoogroups.com, Greg Chapman wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Hi,
                                  >
                                  > On 08 Jan 09 19:14 MotoMania said:
                                  > > Glad that got things started. I try to stay W3C XHTML 1.1 and CSS
                                  > > standard with any sites that I create or update.
                                  >
                                  > I understand that no modern browser actually renders true XHTML and
                                  > simply converts the code to HTML and renders that. In consequence,
                                  > there is little point in writing XHTML markup for web sites. These
                                  > days XHTML is seen as a (rare?) blind alley up which the W3C
                                  > travelled. Indeed, I believe there is now an W3C HTML v5 working group
                                  > to update HTML for the modern environment.
                                  >
                                  > I confess that I have never bothered to check out these tales (from
                                  > people I respect) which I read on other forums, but the snippets I do
                                  > read elsewhere suggest that their remarks are true.
                                  >
                                  > These days my own sites use HTML4 STRICT (which obliges use of CSS).
                                  > It certainly handles the vast majority of hassles I used to get with
                                  > some browsers.
                                  >
                                  > Greg
                                  >
                                • Cary
                                  Looking at the current page, the link styling should be changed so hover comes before active. a:link {text-decoration: none; color: navy;} a:visited
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Jan 8, 2009
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                                    Looking at the current page, the link styling should be changed so
                                    hover comes before active.

                                    a:link {text-decoration: none; color: navy;}
                                    a:visited {text-decoration: none; color: navy;}
                                    a:hover {color: red; text-decoration: bold}
                                    a:active {text-decoration: none; color: navy;}
                                    a.other:link {color: #99FFFF; text-decoration: none}
                                    a.other:visited {color: #99FFFF; text-decoration: none}
                                    a.other:hover {color: pink; text-decoration: bold}
                                    a.other:active {color: red; text-decoration: none}


                                    --- In ntb-html@yahoogroups.com, "Edward" wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I am having trouble getting an image to center after putting a table
                                    with the links ot other pages on the left side of the page...
                                  • loro
                                    ... Exactly my opinion. With reservations for what Cary already said, that XHTML is treated as XML if it s served with an XHTML content-type. But it can t be,
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Jan 8, 2009
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                                      Greg Chapman wrote:
                                      >I understand that no modern browser actually renders true XHTML and
                                      >simply converts the code to HTML and renders that. In consequence,
                                      >there is little point in writing XHTML markup for web sites.

                                      Exactly my opinion. With reservations for what Cary already said,
                                      that XHTML is treated as XML if it's served with an XHTML
                                      content-type. But it can't be, partly because of IE and partly
                                      because many (most?) XHTML pages wouldn't display in any browser if
                                      they were served with the correct content-type.

                                      XML has few requirements, but one of them is that a page that isn't
                                      well-formed shouldn't be displayed by the browser. All browsers
                                      conform to this. Since many XHTML pages aren't as well-written as
                                      their authors think when they plaster that XHTML button on, there
                                      would be a lot of blank pages on the web and most authors would
                                      quickly revert to HTML and the blessings of the error handling HTML
                                      parsers are so richly equipped with.

                                      This requirement makes me think XML isn't really suited to be used on
                                      this side of the server. Generated on the server, validated and
                                      foolproofed on the server, maybe. But how often does that happen? Can
                                      you imagine a site of any importance to its users or to the owner
                                      that goes blank until someone has found the tiny little error that
                                      maybe originates deep down in some server side program?

                                      Strict instead of Transitional is much more important. The fact that
                                      there even exists a Transitional version of XHTML and that it's
                                      widely used say everything about what the XHTML hype is about. I
                                      think the expression is "blowing smoke". ;-)

                                      Lotta
                                    • Axel Berger
                                      ... I would consider that as a huge advantage over current affairs. Now there is all kinds of junk all over the place and if it isn t displayed, people blame
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Jan 9, 2009
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                                        loro wrote:
                                        > there would be a lot of blank pages on the web and most
                                        > authors would quickly revert to HTML and the blessings
                                        > of the error handling HTML parsers are so richly equipped
                                        > with.

                                        I would consider that as a huge advantage over current affairs. Now
                                        there is all kinds of junk all over the place and if it isn't
                                        displayed, people blame their browser. More importantly and worse,
                                        if you go and complain to the junk merchants, they have the gall to
                                        tell you everyone else was satisfied and that it must be your fault.
                                        And of course, if all browsers gave error messages instead of
                                        guessed at approximate renderings our life would be easier and we'd
                                        not need to employ all those extra validating tools and would not
                                        get caught out by those easily overlooked little mistakes, that
                                        happen not to show up when trying things out in the few browsers and
                                        versions we happen to have at our disposal.

                                        Life would become harder for all thise idiots out there refusing to
                                        take care and not trying to do a good rather than botched job, but I
                                        don't see how that would be bad.

                                        Axel
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