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RE: [NH] Tell me again...

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  • Christine
    Ok... Since I always use CSS, this is simply something to use other than
    Message 1 of 25 , Jan 13, 2005
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      Ok...
      Since I always use CSS, this is simply something to use other than <P
      class=xxx">, which would also not add the paragraph spacing after..

      Thanks for the clarification and links, all! :)
      Christine
    • Marcelo de Castro Bastos
      ... Not quite. First, you will probably need to use classes and IDs anyway with and . But it may be far more economical, not to mention easier to
      Message 2 of 25 , Jan 13, 2005
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        On 13/1/2005 23:43, Christine invited the wrath of the gods by saying:

        >Ok...
        >Since I always use CSS, this is simply something to use other than <P
        >class=xxx">, which would also not add the paragraph spacing after..
        >
        >
        >
        Not quite.
        First, you will probably need to use classes and IDs anyway with <div>
        and <span>. But it may be far more economical, not to mention easier to
        debug, say, to do this:

        <style>
        div.yellowtext p {color:yellow}
        </style>
        .
        .
        .
        <div class="yellowtext">
        <p>lorem ipsum</p>
        <p>lorem ipsum</p>
        <p>lorem ipsum</p>
        </div>

        instead of this:

        <style>
        p.yellowtext {color:yellow}
        </style>
        .
        .
        .
        <p class="yellowtext">lorem ipsum</p>
        <p class="yellowtext">lorem ipsum</p>
        <p class="yellowtext">lorem ipsum</p>

        With the advantage that you can do additional block-leval formatting
        (say, giving this whole part of the page a different background color,
        and an overall border) by styling the div.yellowtext selector.


        Then, the paragraph elements (<p> and <h1>...<h6>) are somewhat special,
        in that although they are block elements, they cannot contain other
        block elements. So they are useful as "lowest level" block elements.

        Divs are more useful for multi-paragraph blocks of text, or to do layout
        stuff that in the past had to be done with tables.

        Anyway, you can easily get rid of the "paragraph spacing after" you
        mention by styling. For instance, I like styling long pieces of text
        (especially if they are intended for printing) in this way:

        p {text-align:justify;
        text-indent:3em;
        margin-bottom: 0.1em;}

        Marcelo
        -=-=-
        ... All in all just another brick in the wall.
        * TagZilla 0.057
      • sisterscape
        It s not either or . I use to style the container but to be semantically correct, multiple paras of text within the would still require
        Message 3 of 25 , Jan 13, 2005
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          It's not either <div> or <p>. I use <div> to style the container but
          to be semantically correct, multiple paras of text within the <div>
          would still require <p> tags.


          --- Christine <christine@...> wrote:

          > Ok...
          > Since I always use CSS, this is simply something to use other than <P
          > class=xxx">, which would also not add the paragraph spacing after..
          >
          > Thanks for the clarification and links, all! :)
          > Christine
          >
          >




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        • Dart Chris
          Hi Christine, Dreamweaver has tools special to remove CRUD ! ! Your should look at the junk Microsoft programmes insert ! ! ! ! ! If Dreamweaver is not
          Message 4 of 25 , Jan 14, 2005
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            Hi Christine,

            Dreamweaver has tools special to remove "CRUD" ! ! Your should look at the
            junk Microsoft programmes insert ! ! ! ! ! If Dreamweaver is not doing it
            right for you I suspect your setup is not correct - it should specifically
            remove empty and unnecessary tags, including the billions generated by
            Microsoft ! Your comment does not sound like the Dreamweaver I know!

            Look under the "Commands" menu for "Clean up HTML" and "Clean up Word".

            Point - you say "created in Dreamweaver" do I perhaps get the feeling you
            are not now working in Dreamweaver but see the <!-- DW6 --> tag in the
            header. Your "crud" could be from elsewhere but the Dreamweaver label
            remains.

            Chris


            _____

            From: Christine [mailto:christine@...]
            Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 3:38 PM
            To: NoteTab HTML
            Subject: [NH] Tell me again...


            what the heck the <div> tag is for?

            I'm working in documents created in Dreamweaver -- what a bunch of CRUD that
            program inserts!!! -- and there are empty <div> tags all over the place.
            Among many, many other, empty tags.

            Those that contain data? The purpose of a <div> is to do what?

            Thanks,
            Christine



            CSE HTML Validator Lite - it's free:
            http://home.earthlink.net/~5wink/dl/cselite652.exe
            <http://home.earthlink.net/~5wink/dl/cselite652.exe>

            Fookes Software Home: http://www.fookes.us/redir
            <http://www.fookes.us/redir>




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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Mark McLaughlin
            ... DW does the best job of GUI driven website authoring tools on Windows based OS s, IMHO. FP, as befits an M$ product, sucks. No comparison. When I get a FP
            Message 5 of 25 , Jan 14, 2005
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              >Dreamweaver has tools special to remove "CRUD" !

              DW does the best job of GUI driven website authoring tools on
              Windows based OS's, IMHO.

              FP, as befits an M$ product, sucks. No comparison.

              When I get a FP site to work on, I say, take the puppy outside,
              put it down, and start fresh.

              No need for that with DW sites.


              Just a comment ...




              Mark McLaughlin
              ----------------------------------------------------------------
              Best Color Video Production CD-ROM Website Design
              mailto:mark@... Ph. 250-744-4111 Fx.
              www.bestcolorvideo.com/ 1021 Ridgeway Place, Victoria BC.
              " We Produce Videos & Internet Websites for YOUR Business "
              ----------------------------------------------------------------


              -----Original Message-----
              From: Dart Chris [mailto:c.dart@...]
              Sent: January 14, 2005 12:22 AM
              To: 'ntb-html@yahoogroups.com'
              Subject: RE: [NH] Tell me again...


              Hi Christine,

              Dreamweaver has tools special to remove "CRUD" ! ! Your should look at the
              junk Microsoft programmes insert ! ! ! ! ! If Dreamweaver is not doing it
              right for you I suspect your setup is not correct - it should specifically
              remove empty and unnecessary tags, including the billions generated by
              Microsoft ! Your comment does not sound like the Dreamweaver I know!

              Look under the "Commands" menu for "Clean up HTML" and "Clean up Word".

              Point - you say "created in Dreamweaver" do I perhaps get the feeling you
              are not now working in Dreamweaver but see the <!-- DW6 --> tag in the
              header. Your "crud" could be from elsewhere but the Dreamweaver label
              remains.

              Chris


              _____

              From: Christine [mailto:christine@...]
              Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 3:38 PM
              To: NoteTab HTML
              Subject: [NH] Tell me again...


              what the heck the <div> tag is for?
            • Christine
              No, Chris, I did not say I created in Dreamweaver. I said the pages were created in Dreamweaver. I code by hand because I m total anal about excess crud
              Message 6 of 25 , Jan 14, 2005
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                No, Chris,
                I did not say I "created in Dreamweaver."
                I said the pages "were created in Dreamweaver."
                I code by hand because I'm total anal about excess crud and readability in
                my source code.
                The pages WERE created in Dreamweaver. As a matter of fact, I was told that
                if I didn't have Dreamweaver, I would be unable to work with them, since
                "that was the program they were created in." Uh-huh. The guy couldn't even
                get the name of the company right...

                I digress.
                I don't use Microsoft products for the same reason.
                I do the dirty work myself, even though it's probably totally unnecessary
                with some of the newer programs out there. NoteTab and my clips do a great
                job for me. Thank you very much! :)

                As Mark put it, I am taking these puppies outside, putting them down and
                starting fresh. It's just unnecessarily messy for a tiny yoga site. Life
                doesn't need to be as complicated as Dreamweaver and this guy made it.
                Christine

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Dart Chris [mailto:c.dart@...]
                Sent: 14 January, 2005 03.22
                To: 'ntb-html@yahoogroups.com'
                Subject: RE: [NH] Tell me again...



                Hi Christine,

                Dreamweaver has tools special to remove "CRUD" ! ! Your should look at the
                junk Microsoft programmes insert ! ! ! ! ! If Dreamweaver is not doing it
                right for you I suspect your setup is not correct - it should specifically
                remove empty and unnecessary tags, including the billions generated by
                Microsoft ! Your comment does not sound like the Dreamweaver I know!

                Look under the "Commands" menu for "Clean up HTML" and "Clean up Word".

                Point - you say "created in Dreamweaver" do I perhaps get the feeling you
                are not now working in Dreamweaver but see the <!-- DW6 --> tag in the
                header. Your "crud" could be from elsewhere but the Dreamweaver label
                remains.

                Chris
              • Dart Chris
                Hi Christine, I think we get the point, but to nit-pick, here is the relevant bit from your text - I see no were . what the heck the tag is for? I m
                Message 7 of 25 , Jan 14, 2005
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                  Hi Christine,

                  I think we get the point, but to nit-pick, here is the relevant bit from
                  your text - I see no "were".


                  what the heck the <div> tag is for?

                  I'm working in documents created in Dreamweaver -- what a bunch of CRUD that
                  program inserts!!! -- and there are empty <div> tags all over the place.
                  Among many, many other, empty tags.

                  Those that contain data? The purpose of a <div> is to do what?

                  Thanks,
                  Christine

                  I thought you might be viewing pages, made originally in DW, in something
                  else - which you can do with a DW page - even in FP if you are so inclined,
                  and still make sense of it. (It'll be full of crud when you take it out of
                  FP if you have made changes!)

                  Chris




                  _____

                  From: Christine [mailto:christine@...]
                  Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 2:54 PM
                  To: ntb-html@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [NH] Tell me again...


                  No, Chris,
                  I did not say I "created in Dreamweaver."
                  I said the pages "were created in Dreamweaver."
                  I code by hand because I'm total anal about excess crud and readability in
                  my source code.
                  The pages WERE created in Dreamweaver. As a matter of fact, I was told that
                  if I didn't have Dreamweaver, I would be unable to work with them, since
                  "that was the program they were created in." Uh-huh. The guy couldn't even
                  get the name of the company right...

                  I digress.
                  I don't use Microsoft products for the same reason.
                  I do the dirty work myself, even though it's probably totally unnecessary
                  with some of the newer programs out there. NoteTab and my clips do a great
                  job for me. Thank you very much! :)

                  As Mark put it, I am taking these puppies outside, putting them down and
                  starting fresh. It's just unnecessarily messy for a tiny yoga site. Life
                  doesn't need to be as complicated as Dreamweaver and this guy made it.
                  Christine

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Dart Chris [mailto:c.dart@...]
                  Sent: 14 January, 2005 03.22
                  To: 'ntb-html@yahoogroups.com'
                  Subject: RE: [NH] Tell me again...



                  Hi Christine,

                  Dreamweaver has tools special to remove "CRUD" ! ! Your should look at the
                  junk Microsoft programmes insert ! ! ! ! ! If Dreamweaver is not doing it
                  right for you I suspect your setup is not correct - it should specifically
                  remove empty and unnecessary tags, including the billions generated by
                  Microsoft ! Your comment does not sound like the Dreamweaver I know!

                  Look under the "Commands" menu for "Clean up HTML" and "Clean up Word".

                  Point - you say "created in Dreamweaver" do I perhaps get the feeling you
                  are not now working in Dreamweaver but see the <!-- DW6 --> tag in the
                  header. Your "crud" could be from elsewhere but the Dreamweaver label
                  remains.

                  Chris




                  CSE HTML Validator Lite - it's free:
                  http://home.earthlink.net/~5wink/dl/cselite652.exe
                  <http://home.earthlink.net/~5wink/dl/cselite652.exe>

                  Fookes Software Home: http://www.fookes.us/redir
                  <http://www.fookes.us/redir>




                  _____

                  Yahoo! Groups Links


                  * To visit your group on the web, go to:
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                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Christine
                  Nit pick away, as you are correct. But I sure didn t say I created them! I realize I can view them in something else, as I m doing in NoteTab. That was
                  Message 8 of 25 , Jan 14, 2005
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                    Nit pick away, as you are correct. But I sure didn't say I created them!
                    <LOL>

                    I realize I can view them in something else, as I'm doing in NoteTab. That
                    was my first clue that this fellow wasn't as on top of things as he could
                    make neophytes think he was.

                    My question certainly wasn't to debate the merits of coding programs, since
                    there's something for everyone out there.
                    I am always surprised, however, at ... the Crud ... these "professional"
                    programs add. With someone mentioning settings, it seems that's a user
                    thing. Is it, then, just lazy that this ... Crud ... isn't removed? Or are
                    the days passed when one worried about bandwidth, baud, clean pages, etc?
                    Perhaps, I guess.

                    Ah well. As usual, I have received the clarification I needed. Thanks guys!
                    Christine

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Dart Chris [mailto:c.dart@...]
                    Sent: 14 January, 2005 09.13
                    To: 'ntb-html@yahoogroups.com'
                    Subject: RE: [NH] Tell me again...



                    Hi Christine,

                    I think we get the point, but to nit-pick, here is the relevant bit from
                    your text - I see no "were".


                    what the heck the <div> tag is for?

                    I'm working in documents created in Dreamweaver -- what a bunch of CRUD that
                    program inserts!!! -- and there are empty <div> tags all over the place.
                    Among many, many other, empty tags.

                    Those that contain data? The purpose of a <div> is to do what?

                    Thanks,
                    Christine

                    I thought you might be viewing pages, made originally in DW, in something
                    else - which you can do with a DW page - even in FP if you are so inclined,
                    and still make sense of it. (It'll be full of crud when you take it out of
                    FP if you have made changes!)

                    Chris
                  • Don - htmlfixit.com
                    ... Well the question is what is a div tag for. We have digressed a little :-) Some of what you are seeing as junk is probably legitimate mark up language. I
                    Message 9 of 25 , Jan 14, 2005
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                      Dart Chris wrote:
                      > Hi Christine,
                      >
                      > I think we get the point, but to nit-pick, here is the relevant bit from
                      > your text - I see no "were".
                      >
                      >
                      > what the heck the <div> tag is for?
                      >
                      > I'm working in documents created in Dreamweaver -- what a bunch of CRUD that
                      > program inserts!!! -- and there are empty <div> tags all over the place.
                      > Among many, many other, empty tags.
                      >
                      > Those that contain data? The purpose of a <div> is to do what?
                      >
                      > Thanks,
                      > Christine
                      >
                      > I thought you might be viewing pages, made originally in DW, in something
                      > else - which you can do with a DW page - even in FP if you are so inclined,
                      > and still make sense of it. (It'll be full of crud when you take it out of
                      > FP if you have made changes!)
                      >
                      > Chris

                      Well the question is what is a div tag for. We have digressed a little :-)
                      Some of what you are seeing as junk is probably legitimate mark up
                      language. I have never used dreamweaver myself, but understand it is
                      typically one of the cleaner wysiwig editors. I have used (and survived
                      through) front page. It is horrible for the markup it adds to pages.
                      Earlier versions of it were especially bad as simply opening a page in
                      it added numerous tags. It bloats a page with repetitive tags.

                      So back on topic ...

                      The Div Tag is probably the second most significant "container" in web
                      page design. The body is the first containing tag to my way of
                      thinking. The reason to use divs is to create containers for major
                      sections of your page. Then into these containers you can put other
                      block or in-line elements.

                      Getting into cascading style sheets is a bit overwhelming at first.
                      Once you get the hang of it though, it is very liberating. If you look
                      at the skinable (or themed) sites on the web, you can by using these
                      containers move them about the page, change the look of them etc. It
                      truly frees and separates the content from the presentation.
                      Presentation is then controlled by a style sheet and the content is not
                      intermingled with the actually style rules, save for the id or class on
                      them.

                      A couple of really good examples of the use of divs to move things
                      around on a page and give it a different look (notice content is always
                      the same):
                      http://www.csszengarden.com/
                      http://www.alexking.org/index.php?content=software/wordpress/styles.php

                      I think of them like items in a home I guess.
                      body tag = the room
                      div tag = shelving units and major pieces of furniture
                      p tag = plastic containers on the shelf or items on the pieces of
                      furniture (like the stereo and tv and knick knacks and patty whacks)

                      I can then move the shelves where I want them, adjust the size of the
                      shelving units and paint them to my hearts content. I can do the same
                      with the plastic containers as well. Best of all I can do it on the fly
                      and change it without having to redo any of the actual page content as
                      the contents of the shelf go with it automatically when I move the shelf.

                      I hope that helps.
                    • sisterscape
                      I don t use DW - not needed because there is NoteTab! I frequent a forum of cutting-edge designers. Many use DW but almost always in text not WYSIWYG mode. DW
                      Message 10 of 25 , Jan 14, 2005
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                        I don't use DW - not needed because there is NoteTab! I frequent a
                        forum of cutting-edge designers. Many use DW but almost always in text
                        not WYSIWYG mode. DW may be the best out there but I hear it doesn't
                        always get it right. I have a freind who tried to open one of my
                        validated, tableless designs in DW and it couldn't handle it!
                        Hand-coding is always the best IMO.

                        --- Mark McLaughlin <mark@...> wrote:

                        > >Dreamweaver has tools special to remove "CRUD" !
                        >
                        > DW does the best job of GUI driven website authoring tools on
                        > Windows based OS's, IMHO.
                        >
                        > FP, as befits an M$ product, sucks. No comparison.
                        >
                        > When I get a FP site to work on, I say, take the puppy outside,
                        > put it down, and start fresh.
                        >
                        > No need for that with DW sites.
                        >
                        >
                        > Just a comment ...
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Mark McLaughlin
                        > ----------------------------------------------------------------
                        > Best Color Video Production CD-ROM Website Design
                        > mailto:mark@... Ph. 250-744-4111 Fx.
                        > www.bestcolorvideo.com/ 1021 Ridgeway Place, Victoria BC.
                        > " We Produce Videos & Internet Websites for YOUR Business "
                        > ----------------------------------------------------------------
                        >
                        >
                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: Dart Chris [mailto:c.dart@...]
                        > Sent: January 14, 2005 12:22 AM
                        > To: 'ntb-html@yahoogroups.com'
                        > Subject: RE: [NH] Tell me again...
                        >
                        >
                        > Hi Christine,
                        >
                        > Dreamweaver has tools special to remove "CRUD" ! ! Your should look
                        > at the
                        > junk Microsoft programmes insert ! ! ! ! ! If Dreamweaver is not
                        > doing it
                        > right for you I suspect your setup is not correct - it should
                        > specifically
                        > remove empty and unnecessary tags, including the billions generated
                        > by
                        > Microsoft ! Your comment does not sound like the Dreamweaver I know!
                        >
                        > Look under the "Commands" menu for "Clean up HTML" and "Clean up
                        > Word".
                        >
                        > Point - you say "created in Dreamweaver" do I perhaps get the feeling
                        > you
                        > are not now working in Dreamweaver but see the <!-- DW6 --> tag in
                        > the
                        > header. Your "crud" could be from elsewhere but the Dreamweaver label
                        > remains.
                        >
                        > Chris
                        >
                        >
                        > _____
                        >
                        > From: Christine [mailto:christine@...]
                        > Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 3:38 PM
                        > To: NoteTab HTML
                        > Subject: [NH] Tell me again...
                        >
                        >
                        > what the heck the <div> tag is for?
                        >
                        >
                        >




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                      • Christine
                        When I was learning HTML (with the help of these lists, I might add), I had this fabulous, smart, funny boss. He was 3 months older than I and had been in
                        Message 11 of 25 , Jan 14, 2005
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                          When I was learning HTML (with the help of these lists, I might add), I had
                          this fabulous, smart, funny boss. He was 3 months older than I and had been
                          in computers since the early 80s ... in China. He said that I needed to
                          learn to code by hand first, so I could always decipher my work and find
                          errors. As always, he was correct. And with NoteTab, my clips are my own
                          coding, so I know that's correct, which cuts down on troubleshooting! He
                          was the best boss. He had the driest sense of humor I've ever experienced.
                          And had us try a Chinese delicacy called 100 year old eggs or something like
                          that. They were black and weird. I digress into Memory Lane.

                          So, as I said, I'm cleaning up DW and all the CRUD! <LOL>

                          C.
                        • Scott Fordin
                          ... I got to sample 100 year old eggs (I was introduced to them as Ancestor Eggs) for the first time with a physics professor from the University of Beijing.
                          Message 12 of 25 , Jan 14, 2005
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                            Christine wrote:
                            > And had us try a Chinese delicacy called 100 year old eggs or something like
                            > that. They were black and weird. I digress into Memory Lane.

                            I got to sample 100 year old eggs (I was introduced to them as
                            Ancestor Eggs) for the first time with a physics professor from
                            the University of Beijing. He was visiting a mutual friend here
                            in the States, and one afternoon/evening he prepared for us the
                            most amazing banquet -- some dozen courses -- that lasted almost
                            four hours. In any case, he told me that real Ancestor Eggs, are
                            quail eggs packed in rock lime and buried in a river bank for,
                            well, 100 years. The ones he had were only buried for about a
                            month, but the general idea is that the lime reacts with the
                            calcium in the egg shell and chemically cooks the egg. What you
                            end up with are like black hardboiled eggs, but they taste a lot
                            mellower than regular hardboiled eggs. Yummy, if visually a bit
                            disquieting.

                            Sorry for compounding the digression.

                            Scott
                          • Jeff Scism
                            ... Jeff -- Jeffery G. Scism, IBSSG ~~~~ Got a Blacksheep ancestor? http://blacksheep.rootsweb.com/ International Blacksheep Society of Genealogists
                            Message 13 of 25 , Jan 14, 2005
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                              Scott Fordin wrote:

                              >Christine wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >I got to sample 100 year old eggs (I was introduced to them as
                              >Ancestor Eggs) for the first time with a physics professor from
                              >the University of Beijing. He was visiting a mutual friend here
                              >in the States, and one afternoon/evening he prepared for us the
                              >most amazing banquet -- some dozen courses -- that lasted almost
                              >four hours. In any case, he told me that real Ancestor Eggs, are
                              >quail eggs packed in rock lime and buried in a river bank for,
                              >well, 100 years. The ones he had were only buried for about a
                              >month, but the general idea is that the lime reacts with the
                              >calcium in the egg shell and chemically cooks the egg. What you
                              >end up with are like black hardboiled eggs, but they taste a lot
                              >mellower than regular hardboiled eggs. Yummy, if visually a bit
                              >disquieting.
                              >
                              >Sorry for compounding the digression.
                              >
                              >Scott
                              >
                              >
                              >Sounds like Um Lat.
                              >
                              >

                              Jeff


                              --


                              Jeffery G. Scism, IBSSG

                              ~~~~

                              Got a Blacksheep ancestor?
                              http://blacksheep.rootsweb.com/
                              International Blacksheep Society of Genealogists
                            • LEE CRESSWELL
                              Scott + Chris, I saw the 100yr old egg remark and couldn t resist commenting... Apparently the quail eggs in actual fact release a peculiar vapour which has a
                              Message 14 of 25 , Jan 14, 2005
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                                Scott + Chris,
                                I saw the 100yr old egg remark and
                                couldn't resist commenting... Apparently the quail
                                eggs in actual fact release a peculiar vapour which
                                has a quite unusual fragrance. This can happen at the
                                most inconvenient of times (example:in coat pocket
                                when going through subway turnstile) always someone
                                elses coat.
                                Regards,
                                Lee.
                              • Christine
                                Oh - I m laughing about tags, not digressing into images sulphurous stinks and dirty looks on the subway.... C. ... From: LEE CRESSWELL
                                Message 15 of 25 , Jan 14, 2005
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                                  <snicker>
                                  Oh - I'm laughing about <div> tags, not digressing into images sulphurous
                                  stinks and dirty looks on the subway....
                                  C.

                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: LEE CRESSWELL [mailto:l.cresswell@...]
                                  Sent: 14 January, 2005 17.43
                                  To: ntb-html@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: RE: [NH] Tell me again...



                                  Scott + Chris,
                                  I saw the 100yr old egg remark and
                                  couldn't resist commenting... Apparently the quail
                                  eggs in actual fact release a peculiar vapour which
                                  has a quite unusual fragrance. This can happen at the
                                  most inconvenient of times (example:in coat pocket
                                  when going through subway turnstile) always someone
                                  elses coat.
                                  Regards,
                                  Lee.
                                • Scott Fordin
                                  ... Well, there s that Chinese aphorism: Validating your crufty FrontPage code is like trying to sneak a sulphurous quail egg through a subway turnstile.
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Jan 14, 2005
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                                    Christine wrote:

                                    > <snicker>
                                    > Oh - I'm laughing about <div> tags, not digressing into images sulphurous
                                    > stinks and dirty looks on the subway....

                                    Well, there's that Chinese aphorism: "Validating
                                    your crufty FrontPage code is like trying to sneak a
                                    sulphurous quail egg through a subway turnstile."

                                    And, of course, it's corollary: "FrontPage code on a
                                    website is like a stinky egg on a crowded subway car."

                                    Okay, I'll stop now. Hey, at least I *tried* to bring
                                    it back to HTML coding...

                                    Scott

                                    > C.
                                    >
                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                    > From: LEE CRESSWELL [mailto:l.cresswell@...]
                                    > Sent: 14 January, 2005 17.43
                                    > To: ntb-html@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Subject: RE: [NH] Tell me again...
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Scott + Chris,
                                    > I saw the 100yr old egg remark and
                                    > couldn't resist commenting... Apparently the quail
                                    > eggs in actual fact release a peculiar vapour which
                                    > has a quite unusual fragrance. This can happen at the
                                    > most inconvenient of times (example:in coat pocket
                                    > when going through subway turnstile) always someone
                                    > elses coat.
                                    > Regards,
                                    > Lee.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > CSE HTML Validator Lite - it's free: http://home.earthlink.net/~5wink/dl/cselite652.exe
                                    >
                                    > Fookes Software Home: http://www.fookes.us/redir
                                    >
                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
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                                    >
                                    > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
                                    > http://www.nod32.com
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                  • Adrian/ Rosemary Worsfold
                                    ... reasons -- theoretical ones being that they were not designed for that and that they don t degrade gracefully if the page is viewed in conditions very
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Jan 15, 2005
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                                      >Tables are seriously discouraged for anything that is NOT tabular data for a number of
                                      reasons -- theoretical ones being that they were not designed for that and that they don't
                                      "degrade" gracefully if the page is viewed in conditions very dissimilar to the ones in which
                                      the designer worked (for instance, they usually look very bad in small-screen browsers).<

                                      Yes, but if you do tables and make them percentage proportional, they fill any browser size,
                                      whereas all these DIV tags and absolutes mean that they scroll off a 640 by 480 and are to
                                      the left of anything higher than 800 by 600. Anyway, if it works, use it.

                                      Adrian Worsfold

                                      http://www.pluralist.co.uk
                                    • sisterscape
                                      I have never done an absolutely positioned or proportional site using DIVs. FYI, DIVs can also build a fluid page using percentages and be cross-browser
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Jan 15, 2005
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                                        I have never done an absolutely positioned or proportional site using
                                        DIVs. FYI, DIVs can also build a fluid page using percentages and be
                                        cross-browser compatible too with a few tricks here and there!

                                        --- Adrian/ Rosemary Worsfold <change@...> wrote:

                                        > >Tables are seriously discouraged for anything that is NOT tabular
                                        > data for a number of
                                        > reasons -- theoretical ones being that they were not designed for
                                        > that and that they don't
                                        > "degrade" gracefully if the page is viewed in conditions very
                                        > dissimilar to the ones in which
                                        > the designer worked (for instance, they usually look very bad in
                                        > small-screen browsers).<
                                        >
                                        > Yes, but if you do tables and make them percentage proportional, they
                                        > fill any browser size,
                                        > whereas all these DIV tags and absolutes mean that they scroll off a
                                        > 640 by 480 and are to
                                        > the left of anything higher than 800 by 600. Anyway, if it works, use
                                        > it.
                                        >
                                        > Adrian Worsfold
                                        >
                                        > http://www.pluralist.co.uk
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >


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                                      • Julie Wolf
                                        Hi , I need to learn the correct way to do a
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Jan 28, 2005
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                                          Hi ,


                                          I need to learn the correct way to do a <a href= with a mailto that
                                          includes the ?subject=
                                          specifically in an environment where there is a data tag for [myemail] that
                                          , when in html
                                          makes this tag do its own complete <a href=mailto .... </a> from with in
                                          the data [tag].

                                          In other words, the [myemail] data tag (when used in an html message)
                                          closes with </a>
                                          and in the begining adds its own <a href and mailto . But I am used to
                                          using in it in text
                                          mailto with subject included, ... and I dont know how to do this in
                                          html.... with this [myemail] data tag.

                                          I hope this makes sense.

                                          Can you help?

                                          I forgot how to post, can you remind me?

                                          At 07:16 AM 1/14/2005, you wrote:

                                          >Dart Chris wrote:
                                          > > Hi Christine,
                                          > >
                                          > > I think we get the point, but to nit-pick, here is the relevant bit from
                                          > > your text - I see no "were".
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > what the heck the <div> tag is for?
                                          > >
                                          > > I'm working in documents created in Dreamweaver -- what a bunch of CRUD
                                          > that
                                          > > program inserts!!! -- and there are empty <div> tags all over the place.
                                          > > Among many, many other, empty tags.
                                          > >
                                          > > Those that contain data? The purpose of a <div> is to do what?
                                          > >
                                          > > Thanks,
                                          > > Christine
                                          > >
                                          > > I thought you might be viewing pages, made originally in DW, in something
                                          > > else - which you can do with a DW page - even in FP if you are so inclined,
                                          > > and still make sense of it. (It'll be full of crud when you take it out of
                                          > > FP if you have made changes!)
                                          > >
                                          > > Chris
                                          >
                                          >Well the question is what is a div tag for. We have digressed a little :-)
                                          >Some of what you are seeing as junk is probably legitimate mark up
                                          >language. I have never used dreamweaver myself, but understand it is
                                          >typically one of the cleaner wysiwig editors. I have used (and survived
                                          >through) front page. It is horrible for the markup it adds to pages.
                                          >Earlier versions of it were especially bad as simply opening a page in
                                          >it added numerous tags. It bloats a page with repetitive tags.
                                          >
                                          >So back on topic ...
                                          >
                                          >The Div Tag is probably the second most significant "container" in web
                                          >page design. The body is the first containing tag to my way of
                                          >thinking. The reason to use divs is to create containers for major
                                          >sections of your page. Then into these containers you can put other
                                          >block or in-line elements.
                                          >
                                          >Getting into cascading style sheets is a bit overwhelming at first.
                                          >Once you get the hang of it though, it is very liberating. If you look
                                          >at the skinable (or themed) sites on the web, you can by using these
                                          >containers move them about the page, change the look of them etc. It
                                          >truly frees and separates the content from the presentation.
                                          >Presentation is then controlled by a style sheet and the content is not
                                          >intermingled with the actually style rules, save for the id or class on
                                          >them.
                                          >
                                          >A couple of really good examples of the use of divs to move things
                                          >around on a page and give it a different look (notice content is always
                                          >the same):
                                          ><http://www.csszengarden.com/>http://www.csszengarden.com/
                                          >http://www.alexking.org/index.php?content=software/wordpress/styles.php
                                          >
                                          >I think of them like items in a home I guess.
                                          >body tag = the room
                                          >div tag = shelving units and major pieces of furniture
                                          >p tag = plastic containers on the shelf or items on the pieces of
                                          >furniture (like the stereo and tv and knick knacks and patty whacks)
                                          >
                                          >I can then move the shelves where I want them, adjust the size of the
                                          >shelving units and paint them to my hearts content. I can do the same
                                          >with the plastic containers as well. Best of all I can do it on the fly
                                          >and change it without having to redo any of the actual page content as
                                          >the contents of the shelf go with it automatically when I move the shelf.
                                          >
                                          >I hope that helps.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >CSE HTML Validator Lite - it's free:
                                          ><http://home.earthlink.net/~5wink/dl/cselite652.exe>http://home.earthlink.net/~5wink/dl/cselite652.exe
                                          >
                                          >Fookes Software Home: <http://www.fookes.us/redir>http://www.fookes.us/redir
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
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                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Don - htmlfixit.com
                                          ... Not one bit of sense to me to be honest. Perhaps an example or two. Usually you use Email
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Jan 28, 2005
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                                            Julie Wolf wrote:
                                            > Hi ,
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > I need to learn the correct way to do a <a href= with a mailto that
                                            > includes the ?subject=
                                            > specifically in an environment where there is a data tag for [myemail] that
                                            > , when in html
                                            > makes this tag do its own complete <a href=mailto .... </a> from with in
                                            > the data [tag].
                                            >
                                            > In other words, the [myemail] data tag (when used in an html message)
                                            > closes with </a>
                                            > and in the begining adds its own <a href and mailto . But I am used to
                                            > using in it in text
                                            > mailto with subject included, ... and I dont know how to do this in
                                            > html.... with this [myemail] data tag.
                                            >
                                            > I hope this makes sense.
                                            Not one bit of sense to me to be honest. Perhaps an example or two.

                                            Usually you use <a href='mailto:email@...?subject=Fred Jones
                                            Silly Hair'>Email me about Fred's Hair</a>
                                            But I have no idea what you mean by data tags for [myemail]. If this
                                            isn't the answer/helpful, try the question with an example or two.
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