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Re: [NH] Tell me again...

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  • Lee Underwood
    Christine, From the W3C Web site: http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/global.html#h-7.5.4 The DIV and SPAN elements, in conjunction with the id and class
    Message 1 of 25 , Jan 13, 2005
      Christine,

      From the W3C Web site:
      http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/global.html#h-7.5.4

      "The DIV and SPAN elements, in conjunction with the id and class
      attributes, offer a generic mechanism for adding structure to documents.
      These elements define content to be inline (SPAN) or block-level (DIV) but
      impose no other presentational idioms on the content. Thus, authors may use
      these elements in conjunction with style sheets, the lang attribute, etc.,
      to tailor HTML to their own needs and tastes."

      See also:
      http://www.htmlcodetutorial.com/_DIV.html
      http://www.htmldog.com/guides/htmlintermediate/spandiv/

      Lee



      At 1/13/05 09:37 AM, Christine wrote:

      >what the heck the <div> tag is for?
      >
      >I'm working in documents created in Dreamweaver -- what a bunch of CRUD that
      >program inserts!!! -- and there are empty <div> tags all over the place.
      >Among many, many other, empty tags.
      >
      >Those that contain data? The purpose of a <div> is to do what?
      >
      >Thanks,
      >Christine
      >
      >
      >
      >CSE HTML Validator Lite - it's free:
      >http://home.earthlink.net/~5wink/dl/cselite652.exe
      >
      >Fookes Software Home: http://www.fookes.us/redir
      >
      >Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • sisterscape
      tags contain, style and position hTML elements on the page. I never used in plain HTML but couldn t do CSS designs without them. ...
      Message 2 of 25 , Jan 13, 2005
        <div> tags contain, style and position hTML elements on the page. I
        never used <div> in plain HTML but couldn't do CSS designs without
        them.

        --- Christine <christine@...> wrote:

        > what the heck the <div> tag is for?
        >
        > I'm working in documents created in Dreamweaver -- what a bunch of
        > CRUD that
        > program inserts!!! -- and there are empty <div> tags all over the
        > place.
        > Among many, many other, empty tags.
        >
        > Those that contain data? The purpose of a <div> is to do what?
        >
        > Thanks,
        > Christine
        >
        >


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      • Rudolf Horbas
        ... It s just a block (division) for all kinds of use. It doesn t have to contain data. Consider this:
        Message 3 of 25 , Jan 13, 2005
          Christine wrote:
          > what the heck the <div> tag is for?

          It's just a block (division) for all kinds of use. It doesn't have to
          contain data.

          Consider this:

          <div style="position: absolute;
          top: 100;
          left: 100;
          width: 200px;
          height: 100px;
          border: 1px solid green;
          background-color: Red;
          ">
          </div>
          etc...

          > I'm working in documents created in Dreamweaver -- what a bunch of CRUD that
          > program inserts!!! -- and there are empty <div> tags all over the place.
          > Among many, many other, empty tags.

          Yeah, DW does all kinds of things with divs, especially when it comes to
          absolute positioning.

          HTH,
          Rudi
        • Marcelo de Castro Bastos
          ... is a generic block element. That is, it has no default effect and no implied semantic meaning. Any effect (formatting) has to be done through
          Message 4 of 25 , Jan 13, 2005
            On 13/1/2005 12:37, Christine invited the wrath of the gods by saying:

            >what the heck the <div> tag is for?
            >
            >I'm working in documents created in Dreamweaver -- what a bunch of CRUD that
            >program inserts!!! -- and there are empty <div> tags all over the place.
            >Among many, many other, empty tags.
            >
            >Those that contain data? The purpose of a <div> is to do what?
            >
            >
            >
            <div></div> is a generic block element. That is, it has no default
            effect and no implied semantic meaning. Any effect (formatting) has to
            be done through CSS.

            <div> is useful when you wish to treat a part of your page as a
            distinctive block, but without having to deal with the default styles
            applied and/or the semantic assumptions attached to other elements.

            For instance, you might want to give a distinctive appearance (colors,
            borders, whatever) to a block of text. Traditional ways of doing that
            would be either using tables or a CSS-styled <blockquote>.

            Tables are seriously discouraged for anything that is NOT tabular data
            for a number of reasons -- theoretical ones being that they were not
            designed for that and that they don't "degrade" gracefully if the page
            is viewed in conditions very dissimilar to the ones in which the
            designer worked (for instance, they usually look very bad in
            small-screen browsers).

            However, you don't want to use <blockquote> because:
            first: this is not quoted text, and you don't want to confuse one thing
            with another;
            second: you don't wish to deal with the default styles which browsers
            apply to <blockquote> (and which are not always the same, so they are
            difficult to turn off effectively).

            So, the best bet would be to use a <div> and style it exactly the way
            you want.

            (In a similar way, <span></span> is a generic inline element.)

            Oh... and empty <div> elements, just as any other kinds of empty
            elements, usually do nothing and can be taken out with no problem.
            HTMLTidy, which can be invoked from Notetab (and, I believe, from
            Dreamweaver), does a fine job of that.

            Marcelo

            -=-=-
            ... Always glad to share my ignorance - I've got plenty.
            * TagZilla 0.057
          • Christine
            Ok... Since I always use CSS, this is simply something to use other than
            Message 5 of 25 , Jan 13, 2005
              Ok...
              Since I always use CSS, this is simply something to use other than <P
              class=xxx">, which would also not add the paragraph spacing after..

              Thanks for the clarification and links, all! :)
              Christine
            • Marcelo de Castro Bastos
              ... Not quite. First, you will probably need to use classes and IDs anyway with and . But it may be far more economical, not to mention easier to
              Message 6 of 25 , Jan 13, 2005
                On 13/1/2005 23:43, Christine invited the wrath of the gods by saying:

                >Ok...
                >Since I always use CSS, this is simply something to use other than <P
                >class=xxx">, which would also not add the paragraph spacing after..
                >
                >
                >
                Not quite.
                First, you will probably need to use classes and IDs anyway with <div>
                and <span>. But it may be far more economical, not to mention easier to
                debug, say, to do this:

                <style>
                div.yellowtext p {color:yellow}
                </style>
                .
                .
                .
                <div class="yellowtext">
                <p>lorem ipsum</p>
                <p>lorem ipsum</p>
                <p>lorem ipsum</p>
                </div>

                instead of this:

                <style>
                p.yellowtext {color:yellow}
                </style>
                .
                .
                .
                <p class="yellowtext">lorem ipsum</p>
                <p class="yellowtext">lorem ipsum</p>
                <p class="yellowtext">lorem ipsum</p>

                With the advantage that you can do additional block-leval formatting
                (say, giving this whole part of the page a different background color,
                and an overall border) by styling the div.yellowtext selector.


                Then, the paragraph elements (<p> and <h1>...<h6>) are somewhat special,
                in that although they are block elements, they cannot contain other
                block elements. So they are useful as "lowest level" block elements.

                Divs are more useful for multi-paragraph blocks of text, or to do layout
                stuff that in the past had to be done with tables.

                Anyway, you can easily get rid of the "paragraph spacing after" you
                mention by styling. For instance, I like styling long pieces of text
                (especially if they are intended for printing) in this way:

                p {text-align:justify;
                text-indent:3em;
                margin-bottom: 0.1em;}

                Marcelo
                -=-=-
                ... All in all just another brick in the wall.
                * TagZilla 0.057
              • sisterscape
                It s not either or . I use to style the container but to be semantically correct, multiple paras of text within the would still require
                Message 7 of 25 , Jan 13, 2005
                  It's not either <div> or <p>. I use <div> to style the container but
                  to be semantically correct, multiple paras of text within the <div>
                  would still require <p> tags.


                  --- Christine <christine@...> wrote:

                  > Ok...
                  > Since I always use CSS, this is simply something to use other than <P
                  > class=xxx">, which would also not add the paragraph spacing after..
                  >
                  > Thanks for the clarification and links, all! :)
                  > Christine
                  >
                  >




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                • Dart Chris
                  Hi Christine, Dreamweaver has tools special to remove CRUD ! ! Your should look at the junk Microsoft programmes insert ! ! ! ! ! If Dreamweaver is not
                  Message 8 of 25 , Jan 14, 2005
                    Hi Christine,

                    Dreamweaver has tools special to remove "CRUD" ! ! Your should look at the
                    junk Microsoft programmes insert ! ! ! ! ! If Dreamweaver is not doing it
                    right for you I suspect your setup is not correct - it should specifically
                    remove empty and unnecessary tags, including the billions generated by
                    Microsoft ! Your comment does not sound like the Dreamweaver I know!

                    Look under the "Commands" menu for "Clean up HTML" and "Clean up Word".

                    Point - you say "created in Dreamweaver" do I perhaps get the feeling you
                    are not now working in Dreamweaver but see the <!-- DW6 --> tag in the
                    header. Your "crud" could be from elsewhere but the Dreamweaver label
                    remains.

                    Chris


                    _____

                    From: Christine [mailto:christine@...]
                    Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 3:38 PM
                    To: NoteTab HTML
                    Subject: [NH] Tell me again...


                    what the heck the <div> tag is for?

                    I'm working in documents created in Dreamweaver -- what a bunch of CRUD that
                    program inserts!!! -- and there are empty <div> tags all over the place.
                    Among many, many other, empty tags.

                    Those that contain data? The purpose of a <div> is to do what?

                    Thanks,
                    Christine



                    CSE HTML Validator Lite - it's free:
                    http://home.earthlink.net/~5wink/dl/cselite652.exe
                    <http://home.earthlink.net/~5wink/dl/cselite652.exe>

                    Fookes Software Home: http://www.fookes.us/redir
                    <http://www.fookes.us/redir>




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                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Mark McLaughlin
                    ... DW does the best job of GUI driven website authoring tools on Windows based OS s, IMHO. FP, as befits an M$ product, sucks. No comparison. When I get a FP
                    Message 9 of 25 , Jan 14, 2005
                      >Dreamweaver has tools special to remove "CRUD" !

                      DW does the best job of GUI driven website authoring tools on
                      Windows based OS's, IMHO.

                      FP, as befits an M$ product, sucks. No comparison.

                      When I get a FP site to work on, I say, take the puppy outside,
                      put it down, and start fresh.

                      No need for that with DW sites.


                      Just a comment ...




                      Mark McLaughlin
                      ----------------------------------------------------------------
                      Best Color Video Production CD-ROM Website Design
                      mailto:mark@... Ph. 250-744-4111 Fx.
                      www.bestcolorvideo.com/ 1021 Ridgeway Place, Victoria BC.
                      " We Produce Videos & Internet Websites for YOUR Business "
                      ----------------------------------------------------------------


                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Dart Chris [mailto:c.dart@...]
                      Sent: January 14, 2005 12:22 AM
                      To: 'ntb-html@yahoogroups.com'
                      Subject: RE: [NH] Tell me again...


                      Hi Christine,

                      Dreamweaver has tools special to remove "CRUD" ! ! Your should look at the
                      junk Microsoft programmes insert ! ! ! ! ! If Dreamweaver is not doing it
                      right for you I suspect your setup is not correct - it should specifically
                      remove empty and unnecessary tags, including the billions generated by
                      Microsoft ! Your comment does not sound like the Dreamweaver I know!

                      Look under the "Commands" menu for "Clean up HTML" and "Clean up Word".

                      Point - you say "created in Dreamweaver" do I perhaps get the feeling you
                      are not now working in Dreamweaver but see the <!-- DW6 --> tag in the
                      header. Your "crud" could be from elsewhere but the Dreamweaver label
                      remains.

                      Chris


                      _____

                      From: Christine [mailto:christine@...]
                      Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 3:38 PM
                      To: NoteTab HTML
                      Subject: [NH] Tell me again...


                      what the heck the <div> tag is for?
                    • Christine
                      No, Chris, I did not say I created in Dreamweaver. I said the pages were created in Dreamweaver. I code by hand because I m total anal about excess crud
                      Message 10 of 25 , Jan 14, 2005
                        No, Chris,
                        I did not say I "created in Dreamweaver."
                        I said the pages "were created in Dreamweaver."
                        I code by hand because I'm total anal about excess crud and readability in
                        my source code.
                        The pages WERE created in Dreamweaver. As a matter of fact, I was told that
                        if I didn't have Dreamweaver, I would be unable to work with them, since
                        "that was the program they were created in." Uh-huh. The guy couldn't even
                        get the name of the company right...

                        I digress.
                        I don't use Microsoft products for the same reason.
                        I do the dirty work myself, even though it's probably totally unnecessary
                        with some of the newer programs out there. NoteTab and my clips do a great
                        job for me. Thank you very much! :)

                        As Mark put it, I am taking these puppies outside, putting them down and
                        starting fresh. It's just unnecessarily messy for a tiny yoga site. Life
                        doesn't need to be as complicated as Dreamweaver and this guy made it.
                        Christine

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Dart Chris [mailto:c.dart@...]
                        Sent: 14 January, 2005 03.22
                        To: 'ntb-html@yahoogroups.com'
                        Subject: RE: [NH] Tell me again...



                        Hi Christine,

                        Dreamweaver has tools special to remove "CRUD" ! ! Your should look at the
                        junk Microsoft programmes insert ! ! ! ! ! If Dreamweaver is not doing it
                        right for you I suspect your setup is not correct - it should specifically
                        remove empty and unnecessary tags, including the billions generated by
                        Microsoft ! Your comment does not sound like the Dreamweaver I know!

                        Look under the "Commands" menu for "Clean up HTML" and "Clean up Word".

                        Point - you say "created in Dreamweaver" do I perhaps get the feeling you
                        are not now working in Dreamweaver but see the <!-- DW6 --> tag in the
                        header. Your "crud" could be from elsewhere but the Dreamweaver label
                        remains.

                        Chris
                      • Dart Chris
                        Hi Christine, I think we get the point, but to nit-pick, here is the relevant bit from your text - I see no were . what the heck the tag is for? I m
                        Message 11 of 25 , Jan 14, 2005
                          Hi Christine,

                          I think we get the point, but to nit-pick, here is the relevant bit from
                          your text - I see no "were".


                          what the heck the <div> tag is for?

                          I'm working in documents created in Dreamweaver -- what a bunch of CRUD that
                          program inserts!!! -- and there are empty <div> tags all over the place.
                          Among many, many other, empty tags.

                          Those that contain data? The purpose of a <div> is to do what?

                          Thanks,
                          Christine

                          I thought you might be viewing pages, made originally in DW, in something
                          else - which you can do with a DW page - even in FP if you are so inclined,
                          and still make sense of it. (It'll be full of crud when you take it out of
                          FP if you have made changes!)

                          Chris




                          _____

                          From: Christine [mailto:christine@...]
                          Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 2:54 PM
                          To: ntb-html@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: RE: [NH] Tell me again...


                          No, Chris,
                          I did not say I "created in Dreamweaver."
                          I said the pages "were created in Dreamweaver."
                          I code by hand because I'm total anal about excess crud and readability in
                          my source code.
                          The pages WERE created in Dreamweaver. As a matter of fact, I was told that
                          if I didn't have Dreamweaver, I would be unable to work with them, since
                          "that was the program they were created in." Uh-huh. The guy couldn't even
                          get the name of the company right...

                          I digress.
                          I don't use Microsoft products for the same reason.
                          I do the dirty work myself, even though it's probably totally unnecessary
                          with some of the newer programs out there. NoteTab and my clips do a great
                          job for me. Thank you very much! :)

                          As Mark put it, I am taking these puppies outside, putting them down and
                          starting fresh. It's just unnecessarily messy for a tiny yoga site. Life
                          doesn't need to be as complicated as Dreamweaver and this guy made it.
                          Christine

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Dart Chris [mailto:c.dart@...]
                          Sent: 14 January, 2005 03.22
                          To: 'ntb-html@yahoogroups.com'
                          Subject: RE: [NH] Tell me again...



                          Hi Christine,

                          Dreamweaver has tools special to remove "CRUD" ! ! Your should look at the
                          junk Microsoft programmes insert ! ! ! ! ! If Dreamweaver is not doing it
                          right for you I suspect your setup is not correct - it should specifically
                          remove empty and unnecessary tags, including the billions generated by
                          Microsoft ! Your comment does not sound like the Dreamweaver I know!

                          Look under the "Commands" menu for "Clean up HTML" and "Clean up Word".

                          Point - you say "created in Dreamweaver" do I perhaps get the feeling you
                          are not now working in Dreamweaver but see the <!-- DW6 --> tag in the
                          header. Your "crud" could be from elsewhere but the Dreamweaver label
                          remains.

                          Chris




                          CSE HTML Validator Lite - it's free:
                          http://home.earthlink.net/~5wink/dl/cselite652.exe
                          <http://home.earthlink.net/~5wink/dl/cselite652.exe>

                          Fookes Software Home: http://www.fookes.us/redir
                          <http://www.fookes.us/redir>




                          _____

                          Yahoo! Groups Links


                          * To visit your group on the web, go to:
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                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Christine
                          Nit pick away, as you are correct. But I sure didn t say I created them! I realize I can view them in something else, as I m doing in NoteTab. That was
                          Message 12 of 25 , Jan 14, 2005
                            Nit pick away, as you are correct. But I sure didn't say I created them!
                            <LOL>

                            I realize I can view them in something else, as I'm doing in NoteTab. That
                            was my first clue that this fellow wasn't as on top of things as he could
                            make neophytes think he was.

                            My question certainly wasn't to debate the merits of coding programs, since
                            there's something for everyone out there.
                            I am always surprised, however, at ... the Crud ... these "professional"
                            programs add. With someone mentioning settings, it seems that's a user
                            thing. Is it, then, just lazy that this ... Crud ... isn't removed? Or are
                            the days passed when one worried about bandwidth, baud, clean pages, etc?
                            Perhaps, I guess.

                            Ah well. As usual, I have received the clarification I needed. Thanks guys!
                            Christine

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Dart Chris [mailto:c.dart@...]
                            Sent: 14 January, 2005 09.13
                            To: 'ntb-html@yahoogroups.com'
                            Subject: RE: [NH] Tell me again...



                            Hi Christine,

                            I think we get the point, but to nit-pick, here is the relevant bit from
                            your text - I see no "were".


                            what the heck the <div> tag is for?

                            I'm working in documents created in Dreamweaver -- what a bunch of CRUD that
                            program inserts!!! -- and there are empty <div> tags all over the place.
                            Among many, many other, empty tags.

                            Those that contain data? The purpose of a <div> is to do what?

                            Thanks,
                            Christine

                            I thought you might be viewing pages, made originally in DW, in something
                            else - which you can do with a DW page - even in FP if you are so inclined,
                            and still make sense of it. (It'll be full of crud when you take it out of
                            FP if you have made changes!)

                            Chris
                          • Don - htmlfixit.com
                            ... Well the question is what is a div tag for. We have digressed a little :-) Some of what you are seeing as junk is probably legitimate mark up language. I
                            Message 13 of 25 , Jan 14, 2005
                              Dart Chris wrote:
                              > Hi Christine,
                              >
                              > I think we get the point, but to nit-pick, here is the relevant bit from
                              > your text - I see no "were".
                              >
                              >
                              > what the heck the <div> tag is for?
                              >
                              > I'm working in documents created in Dreamweaver -- what a bunch of CRUD that
                              > program inserts!!! -- and there are empty <div> tags all over the place.
                              > Among many, many other, empty tags.
                              >
                              > Those that contain data? The purpose of a <div> is to do what?
                              >
                              > Thanks,
                              > Christine
                              >
                              > I thought you might be viewing pages, made originally in DW, in something
                              > else - which you can do with a DW page - even in FP if you are so inclined,
                              > and still make sense of it. (It'll be full of crud when you take it out of
                              > FP if you have made changes!)
                              >
                              > Chris

                              Well the question is what is a div tag for. We have digressed a little :-)
                              Some of what you are seeing as junk is probably legitimate mark up
                              language. I have never used dreamweaver myself, but understand it is
                              typically one of the cleaner wysiwig editors. I have used (and survived
                              through) front page. It is horrible for the markup it adds to pages.
                              Earlier versions of it were especially bad as simply opening a page in
                              it added numerous tags. It bloats a page with repetitive tags.

                              So back on topic ...

                              The Div Tag is probably the second most significant "container" in web
                              page design. The body is the first containing tag to my way of
                              thinking. The reason to use divs is to create containers for major
                              sections of your page. Then into these containers you can put other
                              block or in-line elements.

                              Getting into cascading style sheets is a bit overwhelming at first.
                              Once you get the hang of it though, it is very liberating. If you look
                              at the skinable (or themed) sites on the web, you can by using these
                              containers move them about the page, change the look of them etc. It
                              truly frees and separates the content from the presentation.
                              Presentation is then controlled by a style sheet and the content is not
                              intermingled with the actually style rules, save for the id or class on
                              them.

                              A couple of really good examples of the use of divs to move things
                              around on a page and give it a different look (notice content is always
                              the same):
                              http://www.csszengarden.com/
                              http://www.alexking.org/index.php?content=software/wordpress/styles.php

                              I think of them like items in a home I guess.
                              body tag = the room
                              div tag = shelving units and major pieces of furniture
                              p tag = plastic containers on the shelf or items on the pieces of
                              furniture (like the stereo and tv and knick knacks and patty whacks)

                              I can then move the shelves where I want them, adjust the size of the
                              shelving units and paint them to my hearts content. I can do the same
                              with the plastic containers as well. Best of all I can do it on the fly
                              and change it without having to redo any of the actual page content as
                              the contents of the shelf go with it automatically when I move the shelf.

                              I hope that helps.
                            • sisterscape
                              I don t use DW - not needed because there is NoteTab! I frequent a forum of cutting-edge designers. Many use DW but almost always in text not WYSIWYG mode. DW
                              Message 14 of 25 , Jan 14, 2005
                                I don't use DW - not needed because there is NoteTab! I frequent a
                                forum of cutting-edge designers. Many use DW but almost always in text
                                not WYSIWYG mode. DW may be the best out there but I hear it doesn't
                                always get it right. I have a freind who tried to open one of my
                                validated, tableless designs in DW and it couldn't handle it!
                                Hand-coding is always the best IMO.

                                --- Mark McLaughlin <mark@...> wrote:

                                > >Dreamweaver has tools special to remove "CRUD" !
                                >
                                > DW does the best job of GUI driven website authoring tools on
                                > Windows based OS's, IMHO.
                                >
                                > FP, as befits an M$ product, sucks. No comparison.
                                >
                                > When I get a FP site to work on, I say, take the puppy outside,
                                > put it down, and start fresh.
                                >
                                > No need for that with DW sites.
                                >
                                >
                                > Just a comment ...
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Mark McLaughlin
                                > ----------------------------------------------------------------
                                > Best Color Video Production CD-ROM Website Design
                                > mailto:mark@... Ph. 250-744-4111 Fx.
                                > www.bestcolorvideo.com/ 1021 Ridgeway Place, Victoria BC.
                                > " We Produce Videos & Internet Websites for YOUR Business "
                                > ----------------------------------------------------------------
                                >
                                >
                                > -----Original Message-----
                                > From: Dart Chris [mailto:c.dart@...]
                                > Sent: January 14, 2005 12:22 AM
                                > To: 'ntb-html@yahoogroups.com'
                                > Subject: RE: [NH] Tell me again...
                                >
                                >
                                > Hi Christine,
                                >
                                > Dreamweaver has tools special to remove "CRUD" ! ! Your should look
                                > at the
                                > junk Microsoft programmes insert ! ! ! ! ! If Dreamweaver is not
                                > doing it
                                > right for you I suspect your setup is not correct - it should
                                > specifically
                                > remove empty and unnecessary tags, including the billions generated
                                > by
                                > Microsoft ! Your comment does not sound like the Dreamweaver I know!
                                >
                                > Look under the "Commands" menu for "Clean up HTML" and "Clean up
                                > Word".
                                >
                                > Point - you say "created in Dreamweaver" do I perhaps get the feeling
                                > you
                                > are not now working in Dreamweaver but see the <!-- DW6 --> tag in
                                > the
                                > header. Your "crud" could be from elsewhere but the Dreamweaver label
                                > remains.
                                >
                                > Chris
                                >
                                >
                                > _____
                                >
                                > From: Christine [mailto:christine@...]
                                > Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 3:38 PM
                                > To: NoteTab HTML
                                > Subject: [NH] Tell me again...
                                >
                                >
                                > what the heck the <div> tag is for?
                                >
                                >
                                >




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                              • Christine
                                When I was learning HTML (with the help of these lists, I might add), I had this fabulous, smart, funny boss. He was 3 months older than I and had been in
                                Message 15 of 25 , Jan 14, 2005
                                  When I was learning HTML (with the help of these lists, I might add), I had
                                  this fabulous, smart, funny boss. He was 3 months older than I and had been
                                  in computers since the early 80s ... in China. He said that I needed to
                                  learn to code by hand first, so I could always decipher my work and find
                                  errors. As always, he was correct. And with NoteTab, my clips are my own
                                  coding, so I know that's correct, which cuts down on troubleshooting! He
                                  was the best boss. He had the driest sense of humor I've ever experienced.
                                  And had us try a Chinese delicacy called 100 year old eggs or something like
                                  that. They were black and weird. I digress into Memory Lane.

                                  So, as I said, I'm cleaning up DW and all the CRUD! <LOL>

                                  C.
                                • Scott Fordin
                                  ... I got to sample 100 year old eggs (I was introduced to them as Ancestor Eggs) for the first time with a physics professor from the University of Beijing.
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Jan 14, 2005
                                    Christine wrote:
                                    > And had us try a Chinese delicacy called 100 year old eggs or something like
                                    > that. They were black and weird. I digress into Memory Lane.

                                    I got to sample 100 year old eggs (I was introduced to them as
                                    Ancestor Eggs) for the first time with a physics professor from
                                    the University of Beijing. He was visiting a mutual friend here
                                    in the States, and one afternoon/evening he prepared for us the
                                    most amazing banquet -- some dozen courses -- that lasted almost
                                    four hours. In any case, he told me that real Ancestor Eggs, are
                                    quail eggs packed in rock lime and buried in a river bank for,
                                    well, 100 years. The ones he had were only buried for about a
                                    month, but the general idea is that the lime reacts with the
                                    calcium in the egg shell and chemically cooks the egg. What you
                                    end up with are like black hardboiled eggs, but they taste a lot
                                    mellower than regular hardboiled eggs. Yummy, if visually a bit
                                    disquieting.

                                    Sorry for compounding the digression.

                                    Scott
                                  • Jeff Scism
                                    ... Jeff -- Jeffery G. Scism, IBSSG ~~~~ Got a Blacksheep ancestor? http://blacksheep.rootsweb.com/ International Blacksheep Society of Genealogists
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Jan 14, 2005
                                      Scott Fordin wrote:

                                      >Christine wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >I got to sample 100 year old eggs (I was introduced to them as
                                      >Ancestor Eggs) for the first time with a physics professor from
                                      >the University of Beijing. He was visiting a mutual friend here
                                      >in the States, and one afternoon/evening he prepared for us the
                                      >most amazing banquet -- some dozen courses -- that lasted almost
                                      >four hours. In any case, he told me that real Ancestor Eggs, are
                                      >quail eggs packed in rock lime and buried in a river bank for,
                                      >well, 100 years. The ones he had were only buried for about a
                                      >month, but the general idea is that the lime reacts with the
                                      >calcium in the egg shell and chemically cooks the egg. What you
                                      >end up with are like black hardboiled eggs, but they taste a lot
                                      >mellower than regular hardboiled eggs. Yummy, if visually a bit
                                      >disquieting.
                                      >
                                      >Sorry for compounding the digression.
                                      >
                                      >Scott
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >Sounds like Um Lat.
                                      >
                                      >

                                      Jeff


                                      --


                                      Jeffery G. Scism, IBSSG

                                      ~~~~

                                      Got a Blacksheep ancestor?
                                      http://blacksheep.rootsweb.com/
                                      International Blacksheep Society of Genealogists
                                    • LEE CRESSWELL
                                      Scott + Chris, I saw the 100yr old egg remark and couldn t resist commenting... Apparently the quail eggs in actual fact release a peculiar vapour which has a
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Jan 14, 2005
                                        Scott + Chris,
                                        I saw the 100yr old egg remark and
                                        couldn't resist commenting... Apparently the quail
                                        eggs in actual fact release a peculiar vapour which
                                        has a quite unusual fragrance. This can happen at the
                                        most inconvenient of times (example:in coat pocket
                                        when going through subway turnstile) always someone
                                        elses coat.
                                        Regards,
                                        Lee.
                                      • Christine
                                        Oh - I m laughing about tags, not digressing into images sulphurous stinks and dirty looks on the subway.... C. ... From: LEE CRESSWELL
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Jan 14, 2005
                                          <snicker>
                                          Oh - I'm laughing about <div> tags, not digressing into images sulphurous
                                          stinks and dirty looks on the subway....
                                          C.

                                          -----Original Message-----
                                          From: LEE CRESSWELL [mailto:l.cresswell@...]
                                          Sent: 14 January, 2005 17.43
                                          To: ntb-html@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: RE: [NH] Tell me again...



                                          Scott + Chris,
                                          I saw the 100yr old egg remark and
                                          couldn't resist commenting... Apparently the quail
                                          eggs in actual fact release a peculiar vapour which
                                          has a quite unusual fragrance. This can happen at the
                                          most inconvenient of times (example:in coat pocket
                                          when going through subway turnstile) always someone
                                          elses coat.
                                          Regards,
                                          Lee.
                                        • Scott Fordin
                                          ... Well, there s that Chinese aphorism: Validating your crufty FrontPage code is like trying to sneak a sulphurous quail egg through a subway turnstile.
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Jan 14, 2005
                                            Christine wrote:

                                            > <snicker>
                                            > Oh - I'm laughing about <div> tags, not digressing into images sulphurous
                                            > stinks and dirty looks on the subway....

                                            Well, there's that Chinese aphorism: "Validating
                                            your crufty FrontPage code is like trying to sneak a
                                            sulphurous quail egg through a subway turnstile."

                                            And, of course, it's corollary: "FrontPage code on a
                                            website is like a stinky egg on a crowded subway car."

                                            Okay, I'll stop now. Hey, at least I *tried* to bring
                                            it back to HTML coding...

                                            Scott

                                            > C.
                                            >
                                            > -----Original Message-----
                                            > From: LEE CRESSWELL [mailto:l.cresswell@...]
                                            > Sent: 14 January, 2005 17.43
                                            > To: ntb-html@yahoogroups.com
                                            > Subject: RE: [NH] Tell me again...
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Scott + Chris,
                                            > I saw the 100yr old egg remark and
                                            > couldn't resist commenting... Apparently the quail
                                            > eggs in actual fact release a peculiar vapour which
                                            > has a quite unusual fragrance. This can happen at the
                                            > most inconvenient of times (example:in coat pocket
                                            > when going through subway turnstile) always someone
                                            > elses coat.
                                            > Regards,
                                            > Lee.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > CSE HTML Validator Lite - it's free: http://home.earthlink.net/~5wink/dl/cselite652.exe
                                            >
                                            > Fookes Software Home: http://www.fookes.us/redir
                                            >
                                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
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                                            >
                                            > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
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                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                          • Adrian/ Rosemary Worsfold
                                            ... reasons -- theoretical ones being that they were not designed for that and that they don t degrade gracefully if the page is viewed in conditions very
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Jan 15, 2005
                                              >Tables are seriously discouraged for anything that is NOT tabular data for a number of
                                              reasons -- theoretical ones being that they were not designed for that and that they don't
                                              "degrade" gracefully if the page is viewed in conditions very dissimilar to the ones in which
                                              the designer worked (for instance, they usually look very bad in small-screen browsers).<

                                              Yes, but if you do tables and make them percentage proportional, they fill any browser size,
                                              whereas all these DIV tags and absolutes mean that they scroll off a 640 by 480 and are to
                                              the left of anything higher than 800 by 600. Anyway, if it works, use it.

                                              Adrian Worsfold

                                              http://www.pluralist.co.uk
                                            • sisterscape
                                              I have never done an absolutely positioned or proportional site using DIVs. FYI, DIVs can also build a fluid page using percentages and be cross-browser
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Jan 15, 2005
                                                I have never done an absolutely positioned or proportional site using
                                                DIVs. FYI, DIVs can also build a fluid page using percentages and be
                                                cross-browser compatible too with a few tricks here and there!

                                                --- Adrian/ Rosemary Worsfold <change@...> wrote:

                                                > >Tables are seriously discouraged for anything that is NOT tabular
                                                > data for a number of
                                                > reasons -- theoretical ones being that they were not designed for
                                                > that and that they don't
                                                > "degrade" gracefully if the page is viewed in conditions very
                                                > dissimilar to the ones in which
                                                > the designer worked (for instance, they usually look very bad in
                                                > small-screen browsers).<
                                                >
                                                > Yes, but if you do tables and make them percentage proportional, they
                                                > fill any browser size,
                                                > whereas all these DIV tags and absolutes mean that they scroll off a
                                                > 640 by 480 and are to
                                                > the left of anything higher than 800 by 600. Anyway, if it works, use
                                                > it.
                                                >
                                                > Adrian Worsfold
                                                >
                                                > http://www.pluralist.co.uk
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >


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                                              • Julie Wolf
                                                Hi , I need to learn the correct way to do a
                                                Message 23 of 25 , Jan 28, 2005
                                                  Hi ,


                                                  I need to learn the correct way to do a <a href= with a mailto that
                                                  includes the ?subject=
                                                  specifically in an environment where there is a data tag for [myemail] that
                                                  , when in html
                                                  makes this tag do its own complete <a href=mailto .... </a> from with in
                                                  the data [tag].

                                                  In other words, the [myemail] data tag (when used in an html message)
                                                  closes with </a>
                                                  and in the begining adds its own <a href and mailto . But I am used to
                                                  using in it in text
                                                  mailto with subject included, ... and I dont know how to do this in
                                                  html.... with this [myemail] data tag.

                                                  I hope this makes sense.

                                                  Can you help?

                                                  I forgot how to post, can you remind me?

                                                  At 07:16 AM 1/14/2005, you wrote:

                                                  >Dart Chris wrote:
                                                  > > Hi Christine,
                                                  > >
                                                  > > I think we get the point, but to nit-pick, here is the relevant bit from
                                                  > > your text - I see no "were".
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > what the heck the <div> tag is for?
                                                  > >
                                                  > > I'm working in documents created in Dreamweaver -- what a bunch of CRUD
                                                  > that
                                                  > > program inserts!!! -- and there are empty <div> tags all over the place.
                                                  > > Among many, many other, empty tags.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Those that contain data? The purpose of a <div> is to do what?
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Thanks,
                                                  > > Christine
                                                  > >
                                                  > > I thought you might be viewing pages, made originally in DW, in something
                                                  > > else - which you can do with a DW page - even in FP if you are so inclined,
                                                  > > and still make sense of it. (It'll be full of crud when you take it out of
                                                  > > FP if you have made changes!)
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Chris
                                                  >
                                                  >Well the question is what is a div tag for. We have digressed a little :-)
                                                  >Some of what you are seeing as junk is probably legitimate mark up
                                                  >language. I have never used dreamweaver myself, but understand it is
                                                  >typically one of the cleaner wysiwig editors. I have used (and survived
                                                  >through) front page. It is horrible for the markup it adds to pages.
                                                  >Earlier versions of it were especially bad as simply opening a page in
                                                  >it added numerous tags. It bloats a page with repetitive tags.
                                                  >
                                                  >So back on topic ...
                                                  >
                                                  >The Div Tag is probably the second most significant "container" in web
                                                  >page design. The body is the first containing tag to my way of
                                                  >thinking. The reason to use divs is to create containers for major
                                                  >sections of your page. Then into these containers you can put other
                                                  >block or in-line elements.
                                                  >
                                                  >Getting into cascading style sheets is a bit overwhelming at first.
                                                  >Once you get the hang of it though, it is very liberating. If you look
                                                  >at the skinable (or themed) sites on the web, you can by using these
                                                  >containers move them about the page, change the look of them etc. It
                                                  >truly frees and separates the content from the presentation.
                                                  >Presentation is then controlled by a style sheet and the content is not
                                                  >intermingled with the actually style rules, save for the id or class on
                                                  >them.
                                                  >
                                                  >A couple of really good examples of the use of divs to move things
                                                  >around on a page and give it a different look (notice content is always
                                                  >the same):
                                                  ><http://www.csszengarden.com/>http://www.csszengarden.com/
                                                  >http://www.alexking.org/index.php?content=software/wordpress/styles.php
                                                  >
                                                  >I think of them like items in a home I guess.
                                                  >body tag = the room
                                                  >div tag = shelving units and major pieces of furniture
                                                  >p tag = plastic containers on the shelf or items on the pieces of
                                                  >furniture (like the stereo and tv and knick knacks and patty whacks)
                                                  >
                                                  >I can then move the shelves where I want them, adjust the size of the
                                                  >shelving units and paint them to my hearts content. I can do the same
                                                  >with the plastic containers as well. Best of all I can do it on the fly
                                                  >and change it without having to redo any of the actual page content as
                                                  >the contents of the shelf go with it automatically when I move the shelf.
                                                  >
                                                  >I hope that helps.
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >CSE HTML Validator Lite - it's free:
                                                  ><http://home.earthlink.net/~5wink/dl/cselite652.exe>http://home.earthlink.net/~5wink/dl/cselite652.exe
                                                  >
                                                  >Fookes Software Home: <http://www.fookes.us/redir>http://www.fookes.us/redir
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >----------
                                                  >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                  > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                                  > *
                                                  > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ntb-html/>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ntb-html/
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                                                  > *
                                                  > <mailto:ntb-html-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>ntb-html-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                                                  > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
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                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                • Don - htmlfixit.com
                                                  ... Not one bit of sense to me to be honest. Perhaps an example or two. Usually you use Email
                                                  Message 24 of 25 , Jan 28, 2005
                                                    Julie Wolf wrote:
                                                    > Hi ,
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > I need to learn the correct way to do a <a href= with a mailto that
                                                    > includes the ?subject=
                                                    > specifically in an environment where there is a data tag for [myemail] that
                                                    > , when in html
                                                    > makes this tag do its own complete <a href=mailto .... </a> from with in
                                                    > the data [tag].
                                                    >
                                                    > In other words, the [myemail] data tag (when used in an html message)
                                                    > closes with </a>
                                                    > and in the begining adds its own <a href and mailto . But I am used to
                                                    > using in it in text
                                                    > mailto with subject included, ... and I dont know how to do this in
                                                    > html.... with this [myemail] data tag.
                                                    >
                                                    > I hope this makes sense.
                                                    Not one bit of sense to me to be honest. Perhaps an example or two.

                                                    Usually you use <a href='mailto:email@...?subject=Fred Jones
                                                    Silly Hair'>Email me about Fred's Hair</a>
                                                    But I have no idea what you mean by data tags for [myemail]. If this
                                                    isn't the answer/helpful, try the question with an example or two.
                                                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.