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Re: [NH] &

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  • Kathy Jungjohann
    Dear Jody, Just read these posts, and I m not at all convinced that & should be changed to & in a url. I use a lot of links from AP and major newspapers in
    Message 1 of 19 , May 6, 2004
      Dear Jody,
      Just read these posts, and I'm not at all convinced that & should be
      changed to & in a url. I use a lot of links from AP and major
      newspapers in our pages and they all use & in the url without a problem. In
      fact, I get "page cannot be not displayed" when I replaced & in one of the
      links as a test.
      Cheers,
      Kathy

      At 04:17 PM 5/3/2004 -0500, you wrote:
      >Hi All,
      >
      >Idiot question of the day...
      >
      >CSE HTML Validator tells me that & should be changed to & in a like like:
      >
      ><a href="http://www.fookes.com/regnow.html?2448&item=home">Fookes Software
      >Home</a>
      > ^
      >Is it telling me the truth? :)
      >
      >Take care,
      >Jody Adair
      >
      >The whole world doth err save you and me,
      > and even thou doest err some!
      > http://clean-funnies.com
      > http://notetab.net, http://fookes.us
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • Rudolf Horbas
      Kathy, ... You re supposed to put the & into Your HTML, not into Your address bar (is that what You were doing?), where it will be interpreted al a literal
      Message 2 of 19 , May 6, 2004
        Kathy,

        > Just read these posts, and I'm not at all convinced that & should be
        > changed to & in a url. I use a lot of links from AP and major
        > newspapers in our pages and they all use & in the url without a problem. In
        > fact, I get "page cannot be not displayed" when I replaced & in one of the
        > links as a test.

        You're supposed to put the & into Your HTML, not into Your address
        bar (is that what You were doing?), where it will be interpreted al a
        literal & and not as a further argument separator (hence the "cannot
        be displayed").

        If You click on a link like

        <a href="foo.php?bar=1&baz=2">Link with &&amp;</a>

        the result wil be the same as

        <a href="foo.php?bar=1&baz=2">Link with &</a>

        but in case 1 the validator won't whine about the character.

        Rudi
      • Kathy Jungjohann
        ... Rudi, You re right: I had typed it straight into the address bar. I see when I put the entity in the url of a link, it does convert ok. My mistake. (But
        Message 3 of 19 , May 6, 2004
          >You're supposed to put the & into Your HTML, not into Your address
          >bar (is that what You were doing?)
          Rudi,
          You're right: I had typed it straight into the address bar.
          I see when I put the entity in the url of a link, it does convert ok.
          My mistake. (But I'll stick to plain old & in links just the same.)
          Kathy
        • John Zeman
          ... address ... ok. ... I ve never read the *official* reason why certain characters such as & should be converted, but I know in many programming languages &
          Message 4 of 19 , May 6, 2004
            --- In ntb-html@yahoogroups.com, Kathy Jungjohann <kjj@a...> wrote:
            >
            > >You're supposed to put the & into Your HTML, not into Your
            address
            > >bar (is that what You were doing?)
            > Rudi,
            > You're right: I had typed it straight into the address bar.
            > I see when I put the entity in the url of a link, it does convert
            ok.
            > My mistake. (But I'll stick to plain old & in links just the same.)
            > Kathy


            I've never read the *official* reason why certain characters such as
            & should be converted, but I know in many programming languages & is
            a command. And when & is used as anything other than a command the
            script fails unless the & has been escaped.

            Basically, that's what the & is, a safe way to use & in your html
            even though all the browsers I'm aware of will display it either way.

            Besides & I also convert non breaking spaces, single, and double
            quotes. It may not be necessary but it makes it easy for me to
            differentiate the html code from the plain text in the document.

            John
          • John Zeman
            ... I know in many programming languages & is ... A slight correction to my previous post. & Is not a command in many other languages, it s used to group
            Message 5 of 19 , May 6, 2004
              --- In ntb-html@yahoogroups.com, "John Zeman" <john041650@y...> wrote:
              I know in many programming languages & is
              > a command. And when & is used as anything other than a command the
              > script fails unless the & has been escaped.


              A slight correction to my previous post.

              & Is not a command in many other languages, it's used to group
              commands in many other languages. To run one command and then
              another.

              John
            • Jody
              Hi John ... "e;non breaking spaces"e; or only in urls and such? (I just guessed at the "e;.) Take care, Jody Adair The whole world doth
              Message 6 of 19 , May 6, 2004
                Hi John

                >Besides & I also convert non breaking spaces, single, and double
                >quotes. It may not be necessary but it makes it easy for me to
                >differentiate the html code from the plain text in the document.

                >Does that mean that you would convert "non breaking spaces" into

                "e;non breaking spaces"e;

                or only in urls and such? (I just guessed at the "e;.)


                Take care,
                Jody Adair

                The whole world doth err save you and me,
                and even thou doest err some!
                http://clean-funnies.com
                http://notetab.net, http://fookes.us
              • Don - htmlfixit.com
                ... Then your pages will be non-compliant with standards if you care. It is better to do as they suggest and use the character entity so you generate
                Message 7 of 19 , May 6, 2004
                  Kathy Jungjohann wrote:

                  >>You're supposed to put the & into Your HTML, not into Your address
                  >>bar (is that what You were doing?)
                  >
                  > Rudi,
                  > You're right: I had typed it straight into the address bar.
                  > I see when I put the entity in the url of a link, it does convert ok.
                  > My mistake. (But I'll stick to plain old & in links just the same.)
                  > Kathy
                  >

                  Then your pages will be non-compliant with standards if you care. It is
                  better to do as they suggest and use the character entity so you
                  generate validated pages.
                • sisterscape
                  ... I never gave this a second thought until validation became important for me. Now I would never think of publishing an unvalidated page!
                  Message 8 of 19 , May 6, 2004
                    --- "Don - htmlfixit.com" <don@...> wrote:
                    > Kathy Jungjohann wrote:

                    > > (But I'll stick to plain old & in links just the same.)
                    > > Kathy
                    > >
                    >
                    > Then your pages will be non-compliant with standards if you care. It
                    > is better to do as they suggest and use the character entity so you
                    > generate validated pages.
                    >
                    I never gave this a second thought until validation became important
                    for me. Now I would never think of publishing an unvalidated page!




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                  • John Zeman
                    ... Not quite Jody. in html extra (more than one) spaces are ignored by the browser, that s why you can indent your code if you want. To force extra spaces to
                    Message 9 of 19 , May 6, 2004
                      --- In ntb-html@yahoogroups.com, Jody <kjv-av1611@e...> wrote:
                      > Hi John
                      >
                      > >Besides & I also convert non breaking spaces, single, and double
                      > >quotes. It may not be necessary but it makes it easy for me to
                      > >differentiate the html code from the plain text in the document.
                      >
                      > >Does that mean that you would convert "non breaking spaces" into
                      >
                      > "e;non breaking spaces"e;
                      >
                      > or only in urls and such? (I just guessed at the "e;.)
                      >
                      >


                      Not quite Jody. in html extra (more than one) spaces are ignored by
                      the browser, that's why you can indent your code if you want. To
                      force extra spaces to be displayed in the text, you need to use
                        in place of, or along with, regular spaces. In your example,
                      unless you had non breaking spaces in place of regular spaces, it
                      would be converted as follows:

                      Does that mean that you would convert "non breaking spaces"
                      into

                      Only the quotes are converted.

                      You can't have spaces in URLS so there's no reason to use non
                      breaking spaces in links. Non breaking spaces only apply to plain
                      text. To see a good example of it, just use the NoteTab command
                      of "modify document to html with paragraph tags" on a text document
                      that has two or more spaces between sentences.

                      John
                    • Jody
                      Hi John, ... Yes, I was just curious if you did the whole document literally. ... %20 :) ... Yep. I have two Clips I use a lot: H=   1 Space  
                      Message 10 of 19 , May 6, 2004
                        Hi John,

                        >> >Does that mean that you would convert "non breaking spaces" into
                        >>
                        >> "e;non breaking spaces"e;
                        >>
                        >> or only in urls and such? (I just guessed at the "e;.)
                        >
                        >Not quite Jody. in html extra (more than one) spaces are ignored by
                        >the browser, that's why you can indent your code if you want.

                        Yes, I was just curious if you did the whole document literally.

                        >You can't have spaces in URLS so there's no reason to use non
                        >breaking spaces in links.

                        %20 :)

                        >Non breaking spaces only apply to plain text. To see a good
                        >example of it, just use the NoteTab command of "modify document
                        >to html with paragraph tags" on a text document that has two or
                        >more spaces between sentences.

                        Yep. I have two Clips I use a lot:

                        H="  1 Space"
                         

                        H="  5 Spaces"
                             

                        Sometimes I use the menu; just depends on where I'm at, but I can
                        get to most of my frequent Clips as fast as I can to the menu and
                        don't take the chance of my mouse pointer sliding off and having
                        to start again because it collapses.

                        I just added this clip :)

                        H=Fill Spaces with  
                        ^$StrFill(" ";^$GetSelSize$)$

                        bcnu,
                        jody

                        I can only please one person a day.
                        Today is obviously not your day.
                        Tomorrow doesn't look good either. 8D
                        http://www.clean-funnies.com
                        http://www.fookes.com/regnow.html?2448 ;)
                        http://www.sojourner.us/software
                      • John Zeman
                        ... by ... That s true Jody, if someone attempts to use spaces in a URL they should be changed to %20 instead. One thing you may want to keep in mind when
                        Message 11 of 19 , May 6, 2004
                          --- In ntb-html@yahoogroups.com, Jody <kjv-av1611@e...> wrote:
                          > Hi John,
                          >
                          > >> >Does that mean that you would convert "non breaking spaces" into
                          > >>
                          > >> "e;non breaking spaces"e;
                          > >>
                          > >> or only in urls and such? (I just guessed at the "e;.)
                          > >
                          > >Not quite Jody. in html extra (more than one) spaces are ignored
                          by
                          > >the browser, that's why you can indent your code if you want.
                          >
                          > Yes, I was just curious if you did the whole document literally.
                          >
                          > >You can't have spaces in URLS so there's no reason to use non
                          > >breaking spaces in links.
                          >
                          > %20 :)
                          >
                          > >Non breaking spaces only apply to plain text. To see a good
                          > >example of it, just use the NoteTab command of "modify document
                          > >to html with paragraph tags" on a text document that has two or
                          > >more spaces between sentences.
                          >
                          > Yep. I have two Clips I use a lot:
                          >
                          > H="  1 Space"
                          >  
                          >
                          > H="  5 Spaces"
                          >      
                          >
                          > Sometimes I use the menu; just depends on where I'm at, but I can
                          > get to most of my frequent Clips as fast as I can to the menu and
                          > don't take the chance of my mouse pointer sliding off and having
                          > to start again because it collapses.
                          >
                          > I just added this clip :)
                          >
                          > H=Fill Spaces with  
                          > ^$StrFill(" ";^$GetSelSize$)$
                          >
                          > bcnu,
                          > jody
                          >


                          That's true Jody, if someone attempts to use spaces in a URL they
                          should be changed to %20 instead.

                          One thing you may want to keep in mind when using non breaking
                          spaces, is they mean just what their name implies. They're meant to
                          keep text together on one line. So as a general rule if you're going
                          to display a long string of spaces, you may want to consider
                          alternating between regular spaces and non breaking ones. e.g.

                                   

                          instead of:

                                   

                          Doing it the first way will allow line breaks to take place at proper
                          points when the page is viewed in a smaller window.

                          John
                        • Jody
                          Hi John, I suppose           w/o breaking them could be one of the reasons for getting the horizontal scrollbar.
                          Message 12 of 19 , May 6, 2004
                            Hi John,

                            I suppose          
                            w/o breaking them could be one of the reasons for getting the
                            horizontal scrollbar. (I hate finding those problems in my code.)
                            I know images can do it, bad code,... but I haven't found other
                            reasons (at least that I can remember) other than some table and
                            margin-left/right in css and width sometimes. I have a few pages
                            somewhere <g> that has the horizontal bar just for about 1/2" and
                            cannot figure out what is causing it. None of the above seems to.
                            Feel free to change the Subject to Unwanted Horizontal Scrollbar
                            if you want to offer suggestions (off the top of your head)
                            because I'd have to go searching for the pages to send a link in.

                            >One thing you may want to keep in mind when using non breaking
                            >spaces, is they mean just what their name implies. They're meant to
                            >keep text together on one line. So as a general rule if you're going
                            >to display a long string of spaces, you may want to consider
                            >alternating between regular spaces and non breaking ones. e.g.
                            >
                            >         
                            >
                            >instead of:
                            >
                            >         
                            >
                            >Doing it the first way will allow line breaks to take place at proper
                            >points when the page is viewed in a smaller window.


                            I've got Fookesability!
                            Sometimes, no sensibility. :(
                            Jody

                            fookes.us, notetab.net
                            clean-funnies.com, bwbc.us
                            sureword.net, sojourner.us
                          • Marcelo de Castro Bastos
                            ... &, are reserved characters in HTML. This means that they should be used ONLY for marking elements ( ) or entities (&). This way, the browser
                            Message 13 of 19 , May 6, 2004
                              On 6/5/2004 13:31, John Zeman invited the wrath of the gods by saying:

                              > I've never read the *official* reason why certain characters such as
                              >
                              >& should be converted, but I know in many programming languages & is
                              >a command. And when & is used as anything other than a command the
                              >script fails unless the & has been escaped.
                              >
                              >Basically, that's what the & is, a safe way to use & in your html
                              >even though all the browsers I'm aware of will display it either way.
                              >
                              >Besides & I also convert non breaking spaces, single, and double
                              >quotes. It may not be necessary but it makes it easy for me to
                              >differentiate the html code from the plain text in the document.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              &, < and > are "reserved" characters in HTML. This means that they
                              should be used ONLY for marking elements (<>) or entities (&). This way,
                              the browser parser won't have to "guess" if you are using them for other
                              things.

                              That means: the ONLY syntactically-allowed way to use "&" in HTML is as
                              the prefix for an entity. So, if you WANT and "&" there, you have to use
                              the equivalent entity instead.

                              Since there are a LOT of badly-coded pages out there, in practice
                              browsers have additional code to try and "guess" what to do when they
                              find things that aren't standard HTML. That's why you find sites with
                              unescaped "&" in the middle of the code, or unterminated entities, and
                              it still displays as intended. But you shouldn't trust on the browser
                              guesses; you should try to create syntactically-valid HTML instead.

                              Double-quotes (") used to be considered reserved too, but this is no
                              longer true. You may prefer leaving them as entities for the reason you
                              mentioned (easier to separate them from the code), but it's not
                              necessary to validate. Single-quotes were never reserved, so the same
                              applies. OTOH, if there are a LOT of quotes in the text (for instance, a
                              dialogue), converting them into entities will make your pages a bit larger.


                              --
                              Marcelo de Castro Bastos

                              -=-=-
                              ... No one is listening until you make a mistake.
                              * TagZilla 0.049
                            • John Zeman
                              ... way, ... other ... That makes perfect sense Marcelo, and I should have realized it. Every other language I work with has reserved characters, that s what I
                              Message 14 of 19 , May 6, 2004
                                --- In ntb-html@yahoogroups.com, Marcelo de Castro Bastos
                                <mcblista@t...> wrote:

                                > &, < and > are "reserved" characters in HTML. This means that they
                                > should be used ONLY for marking elements (<>) or entities (&). This
                                way,
                                > the browser parser won't have to "guess" if you are using them for
                                other
                                > things.
                                >


                                That makes perfect sense Marcelo, and I should have realized it.
                                Every other language I work with has reserved characters, that's what
                                I was kinda sorta alluding to earlier.

                                I was just having a brain hiccup as to what they're called in html.

                                Thanks for the refresher.

                                John
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