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Re: [NH] Re: web pages and Netscape

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  • Fay
    Being relatively dumb, didn t see the corrected sheet at the bottom of the letter. Thanks v much indeed. I ll look through and c/f what I ve done. Thank you.
    Message 1 of 20 , Jul 19, 2002
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      Being relatively dumb, didn't see the corrected sheet at the bottom of the
      letter.
      Thanks v much indeed. I'll look through and c/f what I've done.
      Thank you.
    • Fay
      John, Please, why the alternative font-family? Is it that some browser would have access only to one font family? I know you must be right, but I need to
      Message 2 of 20 , Jul 19, 2002
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        John,
        Please, why the alternative font-family?
        Is it that some browser would have access only to one font family?
        I know you must be right, but I need to understand the why of it.
        Thanks,
        Fay.
      • Larry Hamilton
        Fay, The fonts are controlled by what font is on the computer viewing the web page. If a user does not have the comic font, which you want them to use, sinc
        Message 3 of 20 , Jul 19, 2002
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          Fay,

          The fonts are controlled by what font is on the computer viewing the web
          page.

          If a user does not have the comic font, which you want them to use, sinc
          eyou designed it that way, you can specify a fallback choice to try and keep
          the look of the page like you intend it to be.

          Larry Hamilton
          lmh@...
          http://notlimah.tripod.com/
          http://jillhamilton-momteam.shorturl.com/
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Fay" <feigh@...>
          To: <ntb-html@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Friday, July 19, 2002 7:52 PM
          Subject: Re: [NH] Re: web pages and Netscape


          > John,
          > Please, why the alternative font-family?
          > Is it that some browser would have access only to one font family?
          > I know you must be right, but I need to understand the why of it.
          > Thanks,
          > Fay.
        • Fay
          But as the last bit of font-family it went sans-serif, serif; (or the other way around if the first choice was a serif font) . I m still puzzled. The
          Message 4 of 20 , Jul 19, 2002
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            But as the last bit of font-family it went "sans-serif, serif;" (or the
            other way around if the first choice was a serif font) . I'm still puzzled.
            The validator that Lotta sent me too liked it, but it seems strange to me.
            Fay.
          • Ian Rastall
            ... I would never write it that way. Arial is a type of sans-serif font, I believe. So you would offer alternatives in sans-serif. A typical one would be: p
            Message 5 of 20 , Jul 19, 2002
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              On Sat, 20 Jul 2002 10:27:36 +1000, you wrote:

              >But as the last bit of font-family it went "sans-serif, serif;" (or the
              >other way around if the first choice was a serif font) . I'm still puzzled.
              >The validator that Lotta sent me too liked it, but it seems strange to me.

              I would never write it that way. Arial is a type of sans-serif font, I
              believe. So you would offer alternatives in sans-serif. A typical one
              would be:

              p {font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif;}

              The one I normally do is:

              p {font-family: georgia, "times new roman", serif;}

              I guess the point of going from sans-serif to serif, is in case
              someone's computer doesn't have sans-serif. But that's pretty
              unlikely. These days if you specify a Georgia font, chances are very
              good the browser will have it. The only real problem, is that people
              on Linux won't have access to the MS-specific fonts. But, of course,
              they'll have serif and sans-serif, and I believe they all have Arial.
              In the end, three choices is more than enough.

              Ian
              --
              That oughta be like hittin' fungoes
              with a corked bat. (Nathaniel Ward)

              http://www.aspipes.org/
            • john041650
              ... Hello Fay, As Larry said, it doesn t matter what font you design a web page in, the page will be displayed in a font that is in the computer of whoever is
              Message 6 of 20 , Jul 20, 2002
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                --- In ntb-html@y..., "Fay" <feigh@i...> wrote:
                > John,
                > Please, why the alternative font-family?
                > Is it that some browser would have access only to one font family?
                > I know you must be right, but I need to understand the why of it.
                > Thanks,
                > Fay.


                Hello Fay,

                As Larry said, it doesn't matter what font you design a web page in, the page will be displayed in a font that is in the computer of whoever is looking at your web page. This is why generic fonts are recommended for html pages.

                The idea of a font-family "list" is to make sure a decent font is used to display the web page no matter who is looking at it.. Below is font-family I normally use.

                Font-family: Verdana, Arial, Georgia, Helvetica, Times, "Times New Roman", sans-serif, serif;

                The way it works is like this.. The computer of whoever is looking at my web page, first tries to display the page in the Verdana font.. If their computer does not have the Verdana font, then it goes to the next one in the font-family list, which in the above list is Arial. If Arial is not in their machine it goes to the next font in the list.. And so it goes.. The very last fonts in a font-family list should be generic serif fonts, fonts that are in almost every machine.

                By the way, font names that have spaces in them should be enclosed in double quotes (" ") that was one of the problems in your original stylesheet..

                Have a nice day,

                John :)
              • Ian Rastall
                ... Do you mean: Start with the best font, and offer the next best, and so on ? I ve never tried that, because I m thinking, Start with the font you want,
                Message 7 of 20 , Jul 20, 2002
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                  On Sat, 20 Jul 2002 14:03:27 -0000, you wrote:

                  >As Larry said, it doesn't matter what font you design a web page in, the page will be displayed in a font that is in the computer of whoever is looking at your web page. This is why generic fonts are recommended for html pages.
                  >
                  >The idea of a font-family "list" is to make sure a decent font is used to display the web page no matter who is looking at it.

                  Do you mean: "Start with the best font, and offer the next best, and
                  so on"? I've never tried that, because I'm thinking, "Start with the
                  font you want, then offer the next closest, and so on". It always made
                  sense to start off in, say, Georgia (which is my favorite font, if you
                  can't tell), and then move to something more generic (Times New
                  Roman), and then move to the most generic of that type (serif).

                  The way I understand it, if nothing in your list works, the font just
                  goes to default. So it'll always display, no matter what. But you can
                  control how the page looks, and allow it to degrade gracefully if your
                  intended font isn't available.

                  Ian
                  --
                  That oughta be like hittin' fungoes
                  with a corked bat. (Nathaniel Ward)

                  http://www.aspipes.org/
                • john041650
                  I am not sure I am following you Ian but it appears you and I are saying the same thing.. The bottom line is we want to put forth our best efforts to find a
                  Message 8 of 20 , Jul 20, 2002
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                    I am not sure I am following you Ian but it appears you and I are saying the same thing.. The bottom line is we want to put forth our best efforts to find a font to display our web pages in before the default font is used. A common pitfall for inexperienced webmasters is to design a page using an exotic font of some kind.. The page looks great on their machine, but to most of the rest of the world the text is displayed in a default font and loses the impact the designer was hoping to have.

                    John :)


                    --- In ntb-html@y..., Ian Rastall <idrastall@e...> wrote:
                    > On Sat, 20 Jul 2002 14:03:27 -0000, you wrote:
                    >
                    > >As Larry said, it doesn't matter what font you design a web page in, the page will be displayed in a font that is in the computer of whoever is looking at your web page. This is why generic fonts are recommended for html pages.
                    > >
                    > >The idea of a font-family "list" is to make sure a decent font is used to display the web page no matter who is looking at it.
                    >
                    > Do you mean: "Start with the best font, and offer the next best, and
                    > so on"? I've never tried that, because I'm thinking, "Start with the
                    > font you want, then offer the next closest, and so on". It always made
                    > sense to start off in, say, Georgia (which is my favorite font, if you
                    > can't tell), and then move to something more generic (Times New
                    > Roman), and then move to the most generic of that type (serif).
                    >
                    > The way I understand it, if nothing in your list works, the font just
                    > goes to default. So it'll always display, no matter what. But you can
                    > control how the page looks, and allow it to degrade gracefully if your
                    > intended font isn't available.
                    >
                    > Ian
                    > --
                    > That oughta be like hittin' fungoes
                    > with a corked bat. (Nathaniel Ward)
                    >
                    > http://www.aspipes.org/
                  • Ian Rastall
                    ... We are saying almost exactly the same thing. I m coming from the perspective of loving certain fonts. And I design the page to have a certain look, which
                    Message 9 of 20 , Jul 20, 2002
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                      On Sat, 20 Jul 2002 15:04:02 -0000, you wrote:

                      >I am not sure I am following you Ian but it appears you and I are saying the same thing.. The bottom line is we want to put forth our best efforts to find a font to display our web pages in before the default font is used. A common pitfall for inexperienced webmasters is to design a page using an exotic font of some kind.. The page looks great on their machine, but to most of the rest of the world the text is displayed in a default font and loses the impact the designer was hoping to have.

                      We are saying almost exactly the same thing.

                      I'm coming from the perspective of loving certain fonts. And I design
                      the page to have a certain look, which the fonts enhance. On the web
                      page in my sig, I use Georgia for everything, and allow for it to
                      degrade into TNR, which still fits the "look", but not as nicely.

                      What I don't want is to go from Georgia to Arial, because Arial is a
                      very modern-looking font, and I don't want a modern look. That's what
                      I mean. If you're designing the site to look good with serif fonts,
                      you'll want nothing but serif fonts in there. There's other pages
                      where I use Arial (my other favorite), and allow it to degrade to
                      Helvetica or sans-serif, if necessary, because those two fonts fit the
                      look of the site.

                      There's nothing wrong with not specifying anything. I was always under
                      the impression that the default for IE and NS was Times, and the
                      default for Konqueror was Arial, so you'll still have something nice,
                      but it may not look good with the rest of your site.

                      Ian
                      --
                      That oughta be like hittin' fungoes
                      with a corked bat. (Nathaniel Ward)

                      http://www.aspipes.org/
                    • Alec Burgess
                      Ian ... As a novice HTML user, I m finding this thread fascinating but wonder if you could leave the name of the person you are primarily responding to in the
                      Message 10 of 20 , Jul 20, 2002
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                        Ian

                        > On Sat, 20 Jul 2002 15:04:02 -0000, you wrote: ....

                        As a novice HTML user, I'm finding this thread
                        fascinating but wonder if you could leave the name of the
                        person you are primarily responding to in the header.
                        When we've got a bunch of contributers to the thread it
                        gets a little confusing.

                        Regards ... Alec

                        ---- Original Message ----
                        From: "Ian Rastall" <idrastall@...>
                        To: <ntb-html@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: 20 July, 2002 11:59
                        Subject: Re: [NH] Re: web pages and Netscape
                      • Lloyd
                        Hi Ian, You keep talking about Georgia font. As I have never seen it, where can I find a copy? Lloyd
                        Message 11 of 20 , Jul 20, 2002
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                          Hi Ian,

                          You keep talking about Georgia font. As I have never seen it, where can I
                          find a copy?

                          Lloyd
                          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          >What I don't want is to go from Georgia to Arial, because Arial is a
                          >very modern-looking font, and I don't want a modern look. That's what
                          >I mean. If you're designing the site to look good with serif fonts,
                          >you'll want nothing but serif fonts in there. There's other pages
                          >where I use Arial (my other favorite), and allow it to degrade to
                          >Helvetica or sans-serif, if necessary, because those two fonts fit the
                          >look of the site.
                        • thefrankwmx
                          one of the challenges with using CSS is not only the cross-browser issue but also the variety of platforms ( OS ) the same version of a particular browser may
                          Message 12 of 20 , Jul 20, 2002
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                            one of the challenges with using CSS is not only the cross-browser
                            issue but also the variety of platforms ( OS ) the same version of a
                            particular browser may be loaded on.

                            some browsers behave differently on a Mac than Windows even though it
                            is the same version number.

                            a good (IMHO) discussion of CSS:

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                            regards,

                            tf

                            http://thefrank.com
                          • Ian Rastall
                            On Sat, 20 Jul 2002 14:46:12 -0400, Alec Burgess ... You re asking me to change my settings? There is nothing more sacred to a computer
                            Message 13 of 20 , Jul 21, 2002
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                              On Sat, 20 Jul 2002 14:46:12 -0400, "Alec Burgess" <burale@...>
                              wrote:

                              >As a novice HTML user, I'm finding this thread
                              >fascinating but wonder if you could leave the name of the
                              >person you are primarily responding to in the header.

                              You're asking me to change my settings? There is nothing more sacred
                              to a computer geek. But, uh, no problem. Hope this looks better.

                              Ian
                              --
                              That oughta be like hittin' fungoes
                              with a corked bat. (Nathaniel Ward)

                              http://www.aspipes.org/
                            • Ian Rastall
                              On Sat, 20 Jul 2002 17:00:32 -0500, Lloyd ... It s a True Type font. It comes with things like Microsoft Word. I suppose you could find
                              Message 14 of 20 , Jul 21, 2002
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                                On Sat, 20 Jul 2002 17:00:32 -0500, Lloyd <lloyd2@...>
                                wrote:

                                >You keep talking about Georgia font. As I have never seen it, where can I
                                >find a copy?

                                It's a True Type font. It comes with things like Microsoft Word. I
                                suppose you could find it on the web if you Googled for "true type
                                font georgia". You'd be able to download it. But chances are, if you
                                use Windows, or at least a Microsoft product, you already have it.

                                Georgia is a very classical font. If you've ever seen Microsoft
                                Reader, it uses something similar, but even more classical, called
                                Berling Antigua. Very rounded and traditional.

                                Ian
                                --
                                That oughta be like hittin' fungoes
                                with a corked bat. (Nathaniel Ward)

                                http://www.aspipes.org/
                              • loro
                                ... If you really don t have it it s here: http://www.microsoft.com/typography/fontpack/default.htm Fungoes, huh? Lotta
                                Message 15 of 20 , Jul 21, 2002
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                                  At 16:13 2002.07.21, Ian Rastall wrote:
                                  >On Sat, 20 Jul 2002 17:00:32 -0500, Lloyd <lloyd2@...>
                                  >wrote:
                                  >
                                  > >You keep talking about Georgia font. As I have never seen it, where can I
                                  > >find a copy?
                                  >
                                  > You'd be able to download it. But chances are, if you
                                  >use Windows, or at least a Microsoft product, you already have it.

                                  If you really don't have it it's here:
                                  http://www.microsoft.com/typography/fontpack/default.htm

                                  Fungoes, huh? <G>

                                  Lotta
                                • Lloyd
                                  Hi Ian, Thank you. I do have Word but I guess Office 97 is just too old for it. I downloaded it and it is very clean looking. Thank you again. Lloyd
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Jul 22, 2002
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                                    Hi Ian,

                                    Thank you. I do have Word but I guess Office 97 is just too old for it. I
                                    downloaded it and it is very clean looking.

                                    Thank you again.

                                    Lloyd
                                    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                                    >On Sat, 20 Jul 2002 17:00:32 -0500, Lloyd <lloyd2@...>
                                    >wrote:
                                    >
                                    > >You keep talking about Georgia font. As I have never seen it, where can I
                                    > >find a copy?
                                    >
                                    >It's a True Type font. It comes with things like Microsoft Word. I
                                    >suppose you could find it on the web if you Googled for "true type
                                    >font georgia". You'd be able to download it. But chances are, if you
                                    >use Windows, or at least a Microsoft product, you already have it.
                                  • Alec Burgess
                                    ... too old for it. I ... I ve got Word97 (it shows Georgina TT) and as far as I know I never specifically downloaded ANY fonts. I got an SP1 update to
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Jul 22, 2002
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                                      > Thank you. I do have Word but I guess Office 97 is just
                                      too old for it. I
                                      > downloaded it and it is very clean looking.

                                      I've got Word97 (it shows Georgina TT) and as far as I
                                      know I never specifically downloaded ANY fonts. I got an
                                      SP1 update to MS-Office 97 sometime ago. Maybe it came
                                      with that?

                                      Regards ... Alec
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: "Lloyd" <lloyd2@...>
                                      To: <ntb-html@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Sent: 22 July, 2002 08:37
                                      Subject: Re: [NH] Re: web pages and Netscape
                                    • Ian Rastall
                                      On Mon, 22 Jul 2002 19:03:13 -0400, Alec Burgess ... I always figured Georgia came with Word. But it might have come with Internet
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Jul 22, 2002
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                                        On Mon, 22 Jul 2002 19:03:13 -0400, "Alec Burgess" <burale@...>
                                        wrote:

                                        >I've got Word97 (it shows Georgina TT) and as far as I
                                        >know I never specifically downloaded ANY fonts. I got an
                                        >SP1 update to MS-Office 97 sometime ago. Maybe it came
                                        >with that?

                                        I always figured Georgia came with Word. But it might have come with
                                        Internet Explorer. It has its own set of fonts. It might even be a
                                        Windows thing. One of the features of Windows is that whatever fonts
                                        you have are available to all programs, so if you download the Hebrew
                                        fonts through IE, for instance, they'll suddenly show up in Word.

                                        But it's out there somewhere.

                                        Ian
                                        --
                                        That oughta be like hittin' fungoes
                                        with a corked bat. (Nathaniel Ward)

                                        http://www.aspipes.org/
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